Author Topic: neither free will nor predestination exist.  (Read 1201 times)

Torlin

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neither free will nor predestination exist.
« on: January 09, 2007, 10:14:39 PM »
(my first post yay!)

Hello this is my first post and what i'm going to try to explain is rather complicated (at least for me) so try and keep up.

Tons of people everywhere always talk about whether free will exists or not, but let me ask you something. If you had free will, would you act any differently than if you didn't? the answer is no.

For me neither freewill nor predistination exist. The idea exists, but the actual things don't. For something to exist it has to influence the world in some, however small or big (like taking up space, energy etc.) but i really don't think free will or the lack of really does anything. If you had freewill you would do the exact same thing you would do if you didn't, except you would choose to do it rather than not choosing to do it.

That didn't take as long as i thought it would. Well if you have comments or need clarification don't be afraid (like anyone can stop ye flamers) to post.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Torlin »

ImpaledSkier

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 10:18:03 PM »
Hah, I just mentioned this in a response to Kestrel.

The only actions that can be undertaken are the ones you took. I enjoy that thought.

...and...what's your story about predestination?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by ImpaledSkier »
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Torlin

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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 10:46:29 PM »
It doesn't exist because, like free will, it really doesn't effect anything anyone does. And if something doesn't effect something else, it doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Torlin »

donkeyhoty

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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 11:06:01 PM »
Torlin, you are stating that predestination doesn't exist, but your explanation is stating that it does:   "...except you would choose to do it rather than not choosing to do it."  Also how are you defining effect on something?

Secondly, prredestination is a religious concept, what you're trying to do is more determinism vs. free will(a good possiblity for a topic), with your views being in the determinism camp.

here's a site that attempts to both define and explain both free will and determinism:
http://www.galilean-library.org/int13.html

free will is one of, if not the, most interesting topic in philosophy, so hopefully many will add their thoughts to this, regardless of whether it has or has not been decided beforehand
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by donkeyhoty »
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Whitney

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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2007, 12:20:49 AM »
I don't think it's so much about if free will or predestination (non-religiously determinism) exist as actual things, but if what we mean by them is how actions occur.

For instance, if we live in a world where every thing we do is determined from past events then we are more like pre-programed robots than the independent beings we like to view ourselves as.  Knowing that actions are predetermined and not the result of choice would have a huge effect on how the justice system functions and how we view our lives and the self in general.

It is true that no matter how our actions come to pass; free will or determinism then; we would have done the same things that are now considered history....but it is interesting to try and discover if the actions we do are the result of personal decisions or if those decisions are just an illusion since causal relationships determined that actions would be decided on well before the time to make a decision occurred.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

Marke

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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 03:02:20 AM »
Torlin, if this sort of thing interests you as it seems it does, read Dan Dennett's "Freedom Evolves"

A whole book from a atheist philosopher showing that free will does exist.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Marke »

Mastriani

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 08:41:26 PM »
Dennett is a waste of time, in a manner of speaking ..... hrmmm ..... how do you call someone an idiot in the politically correct manner .... oh yes, he's "academically challenged".

Anyone who studies genetics, theories of consciousness and cognition, will invariably find that the age old philosophical conundrum of "free will" is just another imaginative construct.

A simple study of mirror neurons will end this:  before you "decide" to do anything, your brain has already informed you that it is necessary to do, autonomously.  Example:

Mastriani is sitting at his desk in the morning, and "decides" to turn on his computer to check the latest news about the moron who allegedly runs the country while drinking coffee, as he does every morning.

What do we know:

1.  Mastriani is at his desk.
2.  There is a computer in this locale where Mastriani is located.
3.  Mastriani reads news articles
4.  Mastriani views political leaders as MO-rons.
5.  Mastriani doesn't believe the current leader is in control of his country.
6.  Mastriani drinks coffee.
7.  Mastriani, under normal conditions, will do this every morning.

But now we are left with this "decision" item.  Does he decide to turn on the computer, or is there something else at work?

3 - 5 seconds before my hand moves to the power switch, the "decision" was made for me.  Same issue with the coffee, I don't "decide" to have coffee, or "decide" to take a drink.  It is all chemical impetus from the brain, and we aren't aware of it, at all.  It starts in the life cycle before the birth of the hominid, and continues throughout life.  Mirror neurons are a survival mechanism, hard wired into the brain, to teach us about our environment, and environmental behavior .... all without our permission or attention.

Bottom line: There is no free will.  We choose nothing, it is done for us.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
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donkeyhoty

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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 10:18:40 PM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
Anyone who studies genetics, theories of consciousness and cognition, will invariably find that the age old philosophical conundrum of "free will" is just another imaginative construct.
 And the philosopher or anyone that studies philosophy would say, "Balderdash!"

warning: semi-rhetorical questions ahead

What if your closely held theories of consciousness and cognition turn out to be wrong?

Do you choose to overuse the word hominid, or is it just hard wired into your brain?

Did you choose to join the forum and make posts, or was the decision already made before you discovered said forum?

And since you use homind in almost all of your posts, we should expect it in future posts.  Also, we can't blame you for its overuse, nor praise you for never using it again, since you were going to use it anyway, or stop using it if indeed you do stop.

Thusly, you shouldn't blame G-dub and company for being morons and fucking everything up, it was without their permission that such events occured.  But since you already think them worthless, it stands to reason that you will continue to do so, because, of course, you have no choice in the matter.  Nor do I in writing this post.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by donkeyhoty »
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Sir_Nuttingham

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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 10:52:22 PM »
Every action we take is just a combination of our braincells working together and making the "right" decision using the information you have at a particular moment. First you take in the situation around you using smell, sight and so on.. Then your braincells combine basic instinct and previous experience (wich can be éverything that happened in your life so far) to decide the action that you will take. Because there are so many experiences in peoples lives everyone will take action based on different experiences. Because of the gigantic variety of experiences people can have in life, there is also a huge variety of actions that people can take. Therefor it will look like peoples' actions are random while in fact, at least this is what i believe, actions are just a logical result of your perceptions of the world around you at that particular moment, your basic instinct and previous experience. This would mean that free will wouldn't actually exist.

For example, after reading this some people might want to do something random (like touching their computer screen or whatever) to prove that free will dóés exist, however, that choice will then have been made by experience (reading the above) and percepting the space around you (you see the computerscreen and figure it would be a random action of free will to touch it at any moment you would like)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Sir_Nuttingham »

Mastriani

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 01:45:46 PM »
donkey,

Nice argumentum ad hominem, historia indentidem ad infinitum,  and yes I will continue, unabated.  We are a hominid, a primate with overamplified traits.  Welcome to reality.

Quote
And the philosopher or anyone that studies philosophy would say, "Balderdash!"


Whatever imaginative construct you choose to use to make yourself feel important/necessary/useful, have at it.  It changes nothing, unless you would like to start a discourse on the magics of the interstellar teapot.

The rest of that, barely qualifies for rhetoric, more along the lines of useless digital inanity.  It's pixel punishment without due cause.

Read what Sir_Nuttingham posted and even the marginally literate will realise that it isn't "my" perception alone.  It's known, rather broadly really.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
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ImpaledSkier

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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 05:08:06 PM »
Quote
For example, after reading this some people might want to do something random (like touching their computer screen or whatever) to prove that free will dóés exist, however, that choice will then have been made by experience (reading the above) and percepting the space around you (you see the computerscreen and figure it would be a random action of free will to touch it at any moment you would like)


A very upsetting notion to a lot of people. (I think this is why people can be manipulated so easily.) I agree that we are pretty much programmed by past events, but really...what does it matter? We still feel free, and when this concept isn't being discussed we go along with life, happy as always. We could be right about it, we could be wrong, but either way, we can't change it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by ImpaledSkier »
"Heaven's not a place that you go when you die, it's that moment in life when you actually feel alive. So live for the moment." -The Spill Canvas

Mastriani

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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 06:07:44 PM »
Quote
I agree that we are pretty much programmed by past events, but really...what does it matter?


It matters because of the inherent difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

It matters because what is left to subjectivity, becomes the object of hominid imagination, and a predicate of dissemination of non-evidentiary beliefs which do not benefit the species, or allow for the optimal conditions of edification or amelioration.

It matters, because certain hominids, even ones you may have knowledge of, prefer the objective, pragmatic reality; the reality where predatory instinct and elimination of rivals, is tantamount to living.

I prefer, as the Romans of antiquity, to make of the enemy, the manes.  With the full knowledge, there is no escape.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
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Kestrel

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 06:41:45 PM »
Hi there Mastriani.
Good to meet you.


Interesting post.
One thing, though.

Quote from: "Mastriani"

[highlight=yellow]Bottom line: There is no free will.  We choose nothing, it is done for us.[/highlight]
In light of your above extremely explicit statement, I'm confused by this;

Quote
Mastriani; Whatever imaginative construct you choose to use to make yourself feel important/necessary/useful, have at it. It changes nothing, unless you would like to start a discourse on the magics of the interstellar teapot.

The rest of that, barely qualifies for rhetoric, more along the lines of useless digital inanity. It's pixel punishment without due cause.

Read what Sir_Nuttingham posted and even the marginally literate will realise[/color] that it isn't "my" perception alone. It's known, rather broadly really.

The red comments directly refute your above yellow highlighted quote.
What I find more interesting, is that the blue comments are actual judgments against the individual to whom you are responding. (!)

Not only am I interested in how you reconcile the red, with the yellow, I would very much like to know how you account for making a judgment against another, when it is your position that the poster exercised no free will in making the post??

(I gave you the BOTD, on the "teapot" thing.)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Kestrel »
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Mastriani

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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 07:15:09 PM »
Kestrel,

Valid point.  Digital text does not lend itself to inflection, ergo my sarcasm was not likely to be understood.

Perhaps in the future I should probably notate my ascerbic/derisive commentary with [sarcasm][/sarcasm]?

As far as the blue comments, no, they are not "direct judgment", as there is no use of possessive pronouns which would indicate such position, linguistically or cerebrally.  But, again, lack of inflection makes it easy to understand how you draw that into context.  The commentary was against the post itself.  Which is inherently devoid of personhood.

What need is there of "benefit of the doubt"?  If you disagree, you disagree, small matter really.  To what end, if I may ask?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
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Sir_Nuttingham

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 07:34:49 PM »
Quote from: "ImpaledSkier"
A very upsetting notion to a lot of people. (I think this is why people can be manipulated so easily.) I agree that we are pretty much programmed by past events, but really...what does it matter?


This also matters because it can help us to understand the reason certain people act the way they do. Muslim extremists for instance have had experiences all their lives to make them act the way they do. Looking at that, their acts are a logical result of the experiences and circumstances in their lives. (this does not mean I think their extremist actions and thoughts are oke, far from that!)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Sir_Nuttingham »