Hello, I am a Christian and I wish to present my views of Christianity and atheism, and I look forward to you sharing yours too!
Nice to meet you, you're welcome here as long as you behave. I'd suggest looking up onlyme's post and seeing what "not behaving" is in case you are curious.
Although abiogenesis is a tested hypothesis, and by definition, intelligent design is not testable, abiogenesis does not scientifically disprove that there is no creator/designer. Abiogenesis is proven: yes, it can happen, but it is not testable in a sense that it did happen. There is no way to scientifically prove that either creation or abiogenesis happened, and therefore, the choice remains open to the inquiring mind.
Not true at all my friend. Creationism cannot be used as science because one cannot create a deity in the lab and make it create things like some sort of freakish science experiment. We may never find out what happened in the begining but the scientific ideas sure sound more logical than someone magically making everything
Secondly, if we are knowledgeable about nature, nature can be very good. Fruits smell great. Flowers look nice. Sex feels good. Although none of these are significant, they pose the question: why are some things in nature so wonderful? Darwin’s question on how flowers evolved remains one of the 125 scientific questions to be solved today.
Those things feel good because they're wired into us as positive stimuli. In reality they just give off an odor, create friction, and have a nice lot cast on the electromagnetic spectrum. The good thing about it being wired into us is that it ensures survival. If you don't eat, have sex, use flowers to get sex, etc. you and the species will die off.
On accuracy of scripture:
Increased knowledge has also supported parts of the Bible. For example, Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning, God created the world. In actual fact, the original Hebrew version reads God created “heaven and earth”, which is a contradiction because the earth (land) was created on the third day. However, the Hebrew words for heaven and earth had connotations of “space”, and “stuff” – matter. Therefore, translated scientifically and according to original context, the first line of the Bible reads: at t = 0, a great source of energy blasted forth space and matter, which doesn’t sound as odd with our knowledge of modern science. Secondly, we come to the question – why does matter have to be created so early? If God is energy, He should be able to create matter right when He wants without this previous batch of matter. We come to our second point – God creating by speech. Although it would sound ludicrous a few centuries ago, now we know that sound energy to matter is not at all odd. Also, this explains the previous batch of matter that was needed, as sound energy is compression of matter. Moreover, it fits how matter is viewed by the string theory – not as points but vibrating. Conclusively, according to the Bible itself (Daniels), the times have not yet come and the mysteries are yet to be completely unlocked.
Oh? Which study did this come from? Is it peer-reviewed (did other scientists look at it and do their own examination on it?) or is it just something the Creationist crowd decided to put out?
The Bible has an extremely simple answer for the evils on this world: God gave the most neutral thing one can give, free will. God respects us as individuals and therefore, a lot of suffering and evil does not hold God accountable but rather human beings. God simply respects our choices. However, there will be a time when God gives us the justice we long for; therefore, Judgment Day is not some terrifying event as portrayed in movies, but a day of joy. Finally, I am human and of course I wish that we could see justice on a daily basis and of course I want God to protect me from pain inflicted by others – and that is why Christians long for the day Jesus comes again.
I'm not understanding your exact purpose on this forum. Are you here to preach or witness? Just a shocker for you but most of us were Christians before we deconverted and became atheists. And read clearly, Judgement day is supposed to be a scary day because it states only 144,000 people will be saved (12,000 from each tribe of Israel, as in JEWS). It talks about burning in a lake of fire just for not believing in an outlandish story.
On religious evil:
There is no doubt that many churches are evil. However, the Church is not Christ Himself, and therefore in some ways it must be imperfect. Secondly, as we all know, religion is powerful. The name of Christianity, along with other religions, can become tools in hands of evil people. Therefore, there are more fake churches/religious organizations than we think. This does not prove anything about Christianity or religion, only that there tends to be a weakness/need in mankind that many of us look to fill.
Well it doesn't help it at all. That's not the reason most of us left Christianity. I left because the bible has clear examples of God being cruel to children, slaves, women, non-Hebrews, etc. Some examples are:
1.) Noah's flood! Imagine how many children were killed on that day, for what? Some sinful thing their parents did? Noah wasn't that better, he got drunk and naked and let his son see him that way. Man of God: 1.
2.) Ismael's mother, Hagar. She was a slave girl and was basically raped and when she has a kid, her mistress is jealous and beats her (probably quite horribly seeing as those sheep herders don't have medical knowledge so I'm sure her wounds had little or no treatment). So Hagar does what anyone who loves freedom (and doesn't follow the Bible's teachings on slavery, which it clearly says it is okay, more on that in a second) and runs off. God sends her back telling her that her son will be a bloodthirsty savage and so will his children and their children. Uplifting for someone who was raped and beaten and force to have a child. Men (and Women?) of God= 2.
3.) David was an adulterer and a murderer (Bathsheba, remember?). God forgives him but kills a baby. What did the child do? Why doesn't God do that to all children born out of wedlock if it pisses him off so much? Men of God= 3.
4.) The Old Testament laws are rather hilarious. Clothes of two fibers? Yoking an Ox and an ass on the same Yoke? Eating Ham, Shellfish, Shrimp, etc is bad (why did God create them then and why were there pigs in Israel to begin with? That's a pretty sadistic God). The point I'm getting at is this guy makes the universe in all of its infinite wonder and amazing splendor, but he cares what you had for breakfast? What the hell is that? And the laws are still in effect for you. Jesus said he came to uphold and fulfill the law, not destroy it.
5.) Back to the baby killing, so Moses (who was also a murderer, big time) is told by God to free his people (which there has been no historical evidence for Hebrew enslavement except the biblical account) and to do this, he'll torment the people of Egypt, who didn't elect the Pharaoh and probably hated the living shit out of that lazy asshole. So God turns the river into blood for a week. This raises some eye-brows here. How do you survive in the Sahara Desert without water for a week? Sure they had reserves, but I dought not for that long. That would have killed them pretty quickly before the week was over. Now let's fastforward and get to the part where God kills kids again. The Angel of Death goes and kills the first born of every home except the Jews who smear blood on their door. Makes me wonder why such a deity couldn't just know who was who. Also makes you wonder what those children did to God to begin with. So God kills them and finally the Pharaoh (whose heart was hardened by God to make these punishments happen) let's the Jews go.
I'd go on but this is long enough.
On heaven and hell:
Who is going to heaven and who is going to hell is up for God to decide, not Christians. We can only hold onto the promise that God gave us, but we do not have the authority to condemn people to hell. Here are my apologies for immature Christians who ever spread this message (of course, I’ve spread that message, too). Premature judgment is the exact sin of eating the fruit, so the Bible does not support the simplistic message that “If you are Christian you will go to heaven, if you are not you will go to hell.” In the gospels, Jesus describes many who performs miracles in His name as unrecognized by Him. In the end, it is faith in that Jesus died for our sins that counts. Why does that count? Here is the logic: if we want to live with a righteous and just God we must be righteous so we do not diminish in the justice of the God. Therefore, God came to die for our sins, and at once all the sins of mankind are cleansed, and as long as we don’t say “no, that hasn’t happened”, then it is true to us and we will be saved.
Question: Why does an all-powerful creator of the universe need to send himself for himself to die (which wouldn't be a big deal to such a powerful being) to change something he did to begin with?
What about those people who have never heard of the Gospel, or have heard twisted versions, or are disabled, etc.? The Bible clearly states through the parable of the three servants that God will only expect as much as He has given. Therefore, if we are not given a chance to know, God definitely will not expect us to know.
Okay but what happens to deceived people? God doesn't say they're going to be okay, he says anyone who doesn't accept his son goes to hell. It's that simple, there is no other way to interpret it. There is no wiggle-room. None!
People generally dislike the Bible being used by Christians as scientific or logical text, because that is bringing faith to the level of science and logic, mixing them together. It is the same with using logical or scientific arguments to disprove God, because that is bringing logic and scientific data to the level of faith. Finally, there is no way to scientifically or logically prove that 1. Our findings of scientific evidence are complete and 2. That our knowledge is absolute enough to draw absolute conclusions from incomplete data and evidence. All in all, to believe these conclusions about there not being a God as absolute would require scientifically untestable belief in that our findings/data/evidence are complete and faith in that human knowledge is complete enough to draw absolute conclusions that will need no further modification with time. Some may choose to have faith in the Bible instead of that. Therefore I look forward to more discussions between the two parties of faith, and thank you for your time!
The burden of proof for God is on you. Science isn't having a theory about "The Pink invisible Zombies that may not inhabit Pluto" it makes tests and theories based on what is here and now and testable. God is not testable, he even says not to test him. So scientifically God is a flop unless he shows up and starts talking to us and telling us to vote Nader.
We don't have faith in religion honey. And we don't have faith in Science. We have knowledge of Science and can work it out so we can trust it a lot better. That's a rather rude assumption.