Author Topic: Legalisation of illegal drugs  (Read 134 times)

viocjit

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Legalisation of illegal drugs
« on: August 05, 2019, 05:44:54 PM »
Hello everybody ! I want to debate with you about legalization of illegal drugs.
I think it's necessary to speak about the possibility to decrease , increase don't modify theoretical sentences for taking and possession of cannabis and others drugs.
Of course you can also be for the legalization (This is my opinion).

My proposition is to speak together about what do you want for the statute of drugs where you live. (I'm in France).
I'd like to know if you want to increase theoretical sentence for cannabis possession and others drugs , decrease theoretical sentence for cannabis possession and others drugs or don't modify theoretical sentence if you're against the legalization of its possession.

If we legalize no legal drugs. We must to think about the maximum quantity someone can own if we fix legal limit , who will have the right to produce these if the production is legal , sentences for violation of regulations etc...

Are you in favor of the legalization of illegal drug sell ? (I'm in favor of it but we must to decide if selling must to be the responsibility of a state monopoly , equally shared between a state company and private companies , only in the hand of privates companies , another way to resolve this matter)

I think we must to debate about the legalization of cannabis because it is the most common in the world but we must not forget the debate for others no legal drugs.
Unhappily this debate about individual liberties , public health and judicial system doesn't seem to interest the majority of politicians in my country (France) and politicians in others countries.



In French Republic. Someone taking illegal drugs or / and own illegal drugs is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 1 year (In practice few people go in jail for that) and a fine not exceeding 3750 euros (Approximately a bit more than 3 month of minimum wage under French law).
Those are the "Peines principales" (Main sentence) but there are also a "Peine complémentaire" (Additional sentence) that can be theoretically enforced that is "Stage de sensibilisation aux dangers de l'usage de produits stupéfiants" (Awareness course on the dangers of the use of narcotics). The additional sentence applied to this "Délit" (Misdemeanor) will vanish in Tuesday, 24th , March 2020 because of an amendment to article L3421-1 of "Code de santé publique" (Public health code) that is the legal text prohibiting possession and use of narcotics.

If you're 18 Yo or over and wasn't committing any other misdemeanor for which "Amende forfaitaire" (Inclusive fine) doesn' apply.
You can pay an inclusive fine with an amount of 200 euros (A bit less than one week of minimum wage under French law) to the member of police force who detected you or in the next two weeks to avoid to be prosecuted and therefore face jail and a fine.
If you give 200 euros to the member of police force or in the next two weeks it will cost you 150 euros (A bit less than one week of minimum wage under French law) instead of 200 euros.
You will also pay 150 euros instead of 200 euros if you pay not more than two weeks after receiving the paper asking you to pay.
If you pay after the delay of two weeks and before the expiration of a delay of 45 days after the perpetration of the misdeameanor or 45 days after receiving the paper asking you to pay.. You'll have to pay 200 euros.
If you pay after the delay of 45 days you will have to pay 400 euros (A bit less than two week of minimum wage under French law) .

If the perpetrator is a civil servant , employee of a private company doing a mission of public service delegated to this company by French authorities or someone working in a transport company who is taking narcotics during his / her work.
The perpetrator is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 5 years and a fine not exceeding 75 000 euros (Approximately 6 years of minimum wage under French law).
In this situation you can't pay to avoid prosecution.
It does seem normal to me to prosecute cases of drug use at certain workplaces because you can be a danger for others.
But I don't think it's normal to prosecute cases of drug use if you're not a threat for the lives of others people.
Maximum theoretical sentences for drug use and possession are rarely enforced in practice.



In France there are people who don't take drugs for recreative use but therapeutic use even if this is illegal.
These people are facing a sentence even if they do it in order to survive.
There are a project to legalise cannabis for a therapeutical use but we move slowly.



If you understand French and are interest about maximum theoretical sentence (Rarely enforced in practice) for drug trafficking in France I advise to read articles 222-34 to 222-51 of "Code pénal" (Penal code that is the French criminal code).

I think we must to repeal the theoretical jail sentence for drug use and possession and let the fine if we want to continue to illegalise it.
But we can go more far and repeal this misdemeanor to become a "Contravention" (Petty offense).
You are facing a fine less than 3000 euros or equal to this sum for a petty offense.
There are fifth categories of petty offenses defined in article 131-13 of our penal code. A second classe (Not more than 150 euros) , third class (Not more than 450 euros) or fourth class (Not more than 750 euros that represent about a little less than 3 weeks of minimum wage under French law) seem sufficient to me but for me the better is to legalize drug use and possession even if we can't encourage drug use because it is not good for human health.
We can legalize the sell of drugs but we are far of that and if we legalize drug use and possession and don't amend legislation about drug trafficking it would be already a big step.

We can decrease theoretical sentences for drug trafficking or legalise some aspects of it but we must to decide in which contexts.

Do you know someone in France producing drugs for its personal consumption is facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of an imprisonment term not exceeding 20 years with a parole term not exceeding 13 years and a fine not exceeding 7,500,000 euros because of article 222-35 of code pénal ? (In France this is the maximum amount for a fine and it does represent a little more than 568 years of minimum wage under French law).
That means someone convicted to 20 years of jail must wait 13 years before a potential release.

Do you know someone in France who is the head of a network of narcotics producers for personal consumption of members of the network is facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of life imprisonment with a parole of 22 years and a fine not exceeding 7,500,000 euros because of article 222-34 of code pénal ?
That means someone convicted to life imprisonment of jail must wait 22 years before a potential release.
The others members of the network are facing a maximum theoretical sentence (I don't know any case in which it was applied) of an imprisonment term not exceeding 30 years with a parole not exceeding 20 years because of article 222-35 of code pénal.
That means someone convicted to 30 years of jail must wait 20 years before a potential release.

French law doesn't make any difference between those who produce narcotics for personal consumption , selling or giving and this is problematic.
I think the law must to be amended to make the difference.
I think the theoretical sentences are excessive because someone who have relationship with a foreign power to undermine fundamental interest of French nation is facing an imprisonment term not exceeding 10 years and a fine not exceeding 150 000 euros (A bit more than 11 years of minimum wage under French law) accorded to article 411-5 of code pénal.
Is it normal to risk more jail time than a spy who is doing harm to the state because we produce drugs for ourself and our friends.
It should be the reverse if we were logic.
If you understand French I advise you to read articles 411-6 to 411-8 of code pénal and you will read than a spy take less risk than drug producers.
It doesn't seem logic to me to punish harder drugs producers than spies.

French prisons are overcrowded. About one third of prisoners are jailed for things related to drugs. It would be worse if maximum sentences were applied.

Magdalena

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 08:52:03 PM »
Hello everybody ! I want to debate with you about legalization of illegal drugs.
I think it's necessary to speak about the possibility to decrease , increase don't modify theoretical sentences for taking and possession of cannabis and others drugs.
Of course you can also be for the legalization (This is my opinion).
...
If your opinion is to legalize weed, then there's nothing to debate with me. I say, legalize weed. Sell it to adults. I think alcoholics are a bigger threat than weed users.

“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

Icarus

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 11:53:24 PM »
 Pot is still a federally forbidden substance. However many of our states have made it legal for recreational use.  A few more have made it legal for therapeutic use.   The federal authorities have not been active in prosecuting users in states where it has been made legal.

One of the interesting , or absurd, outcomes presents a problem for legitimate sellers in states where it is legal.   Since the sale of cannibus is illegal insofar as the federal statutes are concerned, the sellers cannot, or dare not,  deposit money from the sale of the product in banks.  Our banks are federally regulated and for the bank to accept deposits of "illegal" money would be a crime.  The pot industry is prospering mightily and the receipts from the sale of the product is very large.

Stores who sell weed may have thousands of dollars for a single days sales. What the hell do they do with all that money.  It would not be prudent to hide it under your mattress.  The bed would soon become very lumpy.  A new industry has developed that unlike the bank can keep the money in very secure vaults. 

Over the broad spectrum of national use, there has been no significant increase in unmanageable behavior by the users of pot. Alcohol is legal to sell and use in almost every locality in the nation.  As Magdalena says, that is the drug of choice for the majority of our people. More than a few of us abuse the privilege of using alcoholic beverages.   Drunken fools cause more auto accidents than almost any other cause.  Drunks are often perpetrators of domestic violence or worse.  Alcohol is a far bigger problem than Marijuana. 

Since so many of our states now allow the sale of pot, the price has diminished somewhat and the illegal drug runners are not making money from the sale of the formerly illegal substance.  The drug cartels are not to be so easily defeated. They have introduced a far more deadly drug: Fentanil. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 01:01:00 AM by Icarus »

Bluenose

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 12:00:28 AM »
I think that drugs should be dealt with as a health issue, not a policing one.  A very large majority of the harm done by drugs is done by dint of them being illegal, uncontrolled and often adulterated.  Surely the USA, of all countries, must know that prohibition does not work (remember the 1920s?), it simply provides a business opportunity for criminals. Legalise, tax and institute quality and dosage controls and then provide education about the real effects of drugs, not the made up moral panic spread by the anti drug ideologues.  BTW, I personally have never even tried marijuana, or any other currently illicit drugs, but that's not the point.
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viocjit

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 10:41:04 PM »
Pot is still a federally forbidden substance. However many of our states have made it legal for recreational use.  A few more have made it legal for therapeutic use.   The federal authorities have not been active in prosecuting users in states where it has been made legal.

One of the interesting , or absurd, outcomes presents a problem for legitimate sellers in states where it is legal.   Since the sale of cannibus is illegal insofar as the federal statutes are concerned, the sellers cannot, or dare not,  deposit money from the sale of the product in banks.  Our banks are federally regulated and for the bank to accept deposits of "illegal" money would be a crime.  The pot industry is prospering mightily and the receipts from the sale of the product is very large.

Stores who sell weed may have thousands of dollars for a single days sales. What the hell do they do with all that money.  It would not be prudent to hide it under your mattress.  The bed would soon become very lumpy.  A new industry has developed that unlike the bank can keep the money in very secure vaults. 

Over the broad spectrum of national use, there has been no significant increase in unmanageable behavior by the users of pot. Alcohol is legal to sell and use in almost every locality in the nation.  As Magdalena says, that is the drug of choice for the majority of our people. More than a few of us abuse the privilege of using alcoholic beverages.   Drunken fools cause more auto accidents than almost any other cause.  Drunks are often perpetrators of domestic violence or worse.  Alcohol is a far bigger problem than Marijuana. 

Since so many of our states now allow the sale of pot, the price has diminished somewhat and the illegal drug runners are not making money from the sale of the formerly illegal substance.  The drug cartels are not to be so easily defeated. They have introduced a far more deadly drug: Fentanil.

Today , I discover this thing that is "Cole memo" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Memorandum

Magdalena

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 07:42:24 AM »
 :computerwave:
Hi Viocjit.
One ...pour vous.  :grin:


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

viocjit

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Re: Legalisation of illegal drugs
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 12:36:11 PM »
:computerwave:
Hi Viocjit.
One ...pour vous.  :grin:

This sketch is fun.
I liked when he spoke about French fries when he say even a French person don't know what they are from.
The majority of French think it was invented in Belgium but others think it was invented in France.
Even historians don't know where this stuff was made first.

The part of the sketch with the man in Atlanta was fun.