Author Topic: Political Narrative II: Why Some Progressives . . .  (Read 717 times)

Bad Penny II

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Re: Political Narrative II: Why Some Progressives . . .
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 12:20:22 AM »
I think communists have redeeming features, they care for the worker, or they are supposed to, who do facists care about?
Their people, whoever that may be. Their nation, whatever it may be. They are as tribal as the commies, only they tend to draw their borders between the tribes differently.

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I don’t want to do extremes, your Hitler against my Stalin.
Good. I don't fancy going to extremes either - the garden variety fringes are bad enough, in my somewhat Centre-biased opinion.

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The USSR lasted 75-80 years, what’s the longest lasting fascist state?
I do not know. What I do know, however, is that it's not the short-term staying power that defines whether a state has failed, will fail or is sustainable. The USSR did not succeed in providing its citizens the best quality of living they could have. Their planned economy led to massive deficits even of the most mundane sort of wares, their lack of competition led to technological backwardness in *all* consumer-related areas I can think of, they had almost no wealthy people… The point is, if I'm out to increase my own well-being and that of those I give two shits about, what does a USSR-like system offer me?
Nothing good comes to mind.
I think it started in a reasonable place though, they mightn’t of been officially serfs anymore but probably weren’t getting a very good deal.
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Old Major, a prize-winning boar, gathers the animals of the Manor Farm for a meeting in the big barn. He tells them of a dream he has had in which all animals live together with no human beings to oppress or control them. He tells the animals that they must work toward such a paradise and teaches them a song called “Beasts of England,” in which his dream vision is lyrically described. The animals greet Major’s vision with great enthusiasm. When he dies only three nights after the meeting, three younger pigs—Snowball, Napoleon, and Squealer—formulate his main principles into a philosophy called Animalism. Late one night, the animals manage to defeat the farmer Mr. Jones in a battle, running him off the land. They rename the property Animal Farm and dedicate themselves to achieving Major’s dream. The cart-horse Boxer devotes himself to the cause with particular zeal, committing his great strength to the prosperity of the farm and adopting as a personal maxim the affirmation “I will work harder.”
Who doesn’t love Boxer? are there any lovable facists?
Capitalism at the moment has us heading for a climate change dystopia, it could make make the depredations of communism pale in comparison.

It might come up with some marvellous new CO2 eating, chocolate shitting bacteria though.

Shut up Green.

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China is doing alright, by their own measure.

The Chinese economic model is Capitalist in certain areas. In those areas, China is indeed doing very well. Is it because of Socialism, however, or in spite of it?

China was big with big problems, perhaps a control economy was necessary.

They seem to work at keeping the population from getting too upset.

What about the cultural revolution and famine?

Shut up Green, they were teething problems.

As a fellow Earthian I applaud their attempts to keep their population down.
India has some similarities, time scale, population, I’d say China has done better, their lowest aren’t as low as India’s.
It seems a bit convenient to disregard success because they aren’t pure red and attribute failures to their redness.

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I’m not voting for commies for government.


Much like the Fascists, you vote them in, but it takes a war, or at least a revolution, to oust them.

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In unions, ye, keep an eye on them like anyone else.
Business will fuck the worker if it can.
Worker cooperation is their best defence against a non consensual fucking.

Norway has strong unions and is not even remotely a Socialist or Communist state. That said, the plight of the "working class..." I think it's changing with said Working Class. The factory worker and the miner lose their jobs to machinery, while the low-level support technician and the sales rep are the "new" "replaceable nobodies." It's not too important for the purpose of this discussion, but does carry weight, and a lot of it, if one were to critique Socialism and/or Communism.
 
There are probably kindly communist academics, communists in trade unions doing an OK job, helping their members, hopefully not making worker/business relationships too adversarial.  What are the fascists doing?

Maybe they're industrialists like that guy in "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo," giving people jobs, treating them OK because they have to.

Maybe, but I'm going to whip you anyway for spoiling my flow. :domanatrix:

Communism hasn’t been entirely satisfactory so far.  :bogey: :domanatrix: If a high level civilisation survives the century, we might yet get to enjoy a post capitalist Star Trek like arrangement, with our robot comrades of course.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 12:34:23 AM by Bad Penny II »
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Asmodean

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Re: Political Narrative II: Why Some Progressives . . .
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 10:56:39 AM »
There are probably kindly communist academics, communists in trade unions doing an OK job, helping their members, hopefully not making worker/business relationships too adversarial.  What are the fascists doing?
Interesting how a kindly academic, or especially an asshole journalist, is comparatively likely to be Communist. The factory worker and the long-distance lorryist, however… Not so much.

I'm not saying that this does or does not hold some special significance - only that it's an interesting observation.

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Communism hasn’t been entirely satisfactory so far.  :bogey: :domanatrix: If a high level civilisation survives the century, we might yet get to enjoy a post capitalist Star Trek like arrangement, with our robot comrades of course.
It would take the invention of replicators, as it would take a post-scarcity world. If anything ever gets us there, I doubt it will be Communists working towards the common goal. Capitalists trying to out-compete each other, however… They just might end up creating something like that.
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