Author Topic: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism  (Read 3000 times)

SidewalkCynic

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2019, 04:01:45 PM »
In my experience people who say this sort of thing are trying to convince themselves. This adds neither to you case nor your credibility. It means less than nothing to me, nor I suspect anybody else here.
I doubt that you are encountering such confidence. I did it because BlueNose had such a poor argument.

Bring your arguments and then walk away and let them do your work for you. If your arguments are that good they don't need your help or force of assertion to convince us.
I don't see you, or anyone, presenting reasoned arguments to contest my arguments. You are encountering the dilemma of being proven wrong, not unlike when you confront Christians with arguments refuting the existence of gods. And you are doing just like the Christians, reverting to your dogma of incorrect descriptions and definitions, and just describe my arguments as false in various ways rather than parsing the arguments, and presenting it all to a jury for a review.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:13:49 PM by SidewalkCynic »
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SidewalkCynic

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2019, 04:17:37 PM »
Welcome to HAF, SidewalkCynic.
Don't worry, not all HAF members are liberals  ;).

That's interesting.

If atheists can identify their subsequent ideological preferences, then a jury system can begin to be organized for the review of arguments, and perhaps we can deliberate binding resolutions to the recurring issues.

Seem possible???
If there were a god, then it would have revealed itself to me. There has never been anything more important in the history of Mankind than what I am delivering - scientific collation theory for the organization of technology.

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2019, 04:46:16 PM »
Hello, SidewalkCynic. You assert that "atheism is a political doctrine." I'm unfamiliar with this political doctrine known as atheism. Perhaps you will be so kind as to enlighten me.
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2019, 08:16:57 PM »
The definition of atheism has been a recurring discussion/debate on atheist forums for the past fifteen years that I have been monitoring the forums and atheist organizations.

Although, the definitions that describe atheism somewhere along the lines that it is a personal lack of belief in a supernatural dimension of human existence, are not incorrect, they are somewhat unsophisticated, because they were composed by theists, if not atheists under the stress of oppression or compulsion to be as compliant as possible. Ultimately, the nuanced definitions continue to be recurring discussions at atheist forums.

I contend that it is best to define atheism to be a political doctrine, because I agree that it is a conscious decision to reject the notion of a supernatural dimension, it is not the "default position," and ultimately, anyone who does not believe in divine providence is probably going to oppose theist based doctrine for the bases of public policy.

Upon casual review of atheist organizations it is not that difficult to recognize that their agenda is political activism. Their agenda is not merely to just get the word out that atheism is a lack of belief in gods - make no mistake about it, they oppose theist based doctrine for the reasoning of public policy.

Ultimately, I believe atheists need to go over everything with scrutiny and scientific method to eradicate the errors in the definitions of all words. The definitions of words are doctrine - the definitions are determined by some authority, and we accept their authority understanding that their methods for determining the definitions are not scientific.

Humanism is the proper ontological doctrine that suggests that humans define reality.

Theism is an ontological doctrine that suggests that the supernatural deity defines reality.

It is absurd to define an ontological doctrine in opposition to a defined ontological doctrine, which is what you are doing when you define atheism as a "default position," or anything other than a political doctrine.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 08:39:56 PM by SidewalkCynic »
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 12:43:02 AM »
The solution to the immigration problem is to provide a reliable government charter for the developing nations to eliminate the corruption and educate the population. No system is convertible for use in developing communities. The US system "works," because it is a product of its own soft corruption, but it is deteriorating now, because its optimum aspects cannot handle the inadequacies that are exploited by the tremendous increase of diversity.

No, the US system does not work.
Exhibit 1: the election of Trump despite overwhelmingly losing the popular vote. 
Exhibit 2: the electoral college, a major cluster fuck if ever there was one
Exhibit 3: ridiculously gerrymandered electoral districts
Exhibit 4: voter suppression
Exhibit 5: the government could not secure supply, but did not fall?  Seriously?

Probably a derail, but I agree.  This election more than any other has pointed out the inherent weaknesses in our particular form of democracy.  The Electoral College was a compromise entered into 250 years ago, but its time has come. It needs to go.  Straight-on democratic voting is what we need.  The Presidency is the one office that we all vote for.  Let it be government of the people, by the people, and for the people, like it's supposed to be.  Eliminate the EC and have a straight majority vote.

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 01:12:20 AM »
In your post, SidewalkCynic, I don't see a succinct definition of the political doctrine that is atheism.

There is no need for a "sophisticated" definition of the word atheism. Atheism in and of itself is not complicated. Nor does it inherently involve any political position.

In some households atheism is indeed the default position. That isn't the defining aspect of atheism though, even in those households. In some societies (a large part of European society, for example) there will be very little if any oppression or compulsion to conform to religion. It seems to me you're trying to define atheism from an American point of view, but that's not a useful perspective from which to define something that is much older than the US and which doesn't exist only in the US.

Atheist organizations are not the defining characteristic of atheism. Atheism would exist regardless of whether they existed, and regardless of any political activity they engage in.

Your assertion regarding definitions of words being "determined by some authority" fails to describe that authority. If you believe that the "authority" is lexicographers, you're mistaken. Words had meanings that were understood by people long before anybody even considered writing a dictionary. As I've pointed out elsewhere, dictionaries are generally descriptive, not prescriptive. Even if some misguided person attempts to write a prescriptive dictionary, the language will continue to evolve regardless; it's futile to attempt to fix language like an insect in amber unless it's already basically dead, as in the case of Latin, for example.

The authority that dictionaries possess only exists to the extent that they present an accurate description of what people generally mean when they use a word. The only real authority is the people who speak and write the language. When new words are coined, they enter the dictionary if enough people use them--lexicographers don't invent the words themselves. They follow the language rather than leading it.

Your project of atheists going "over everything with scrutiny and scientific method to eradicate the errors in the definitions of all words" is based on the same misunderstanding of how language and dictionaries generally work. A group of atheists could waste years writing up their prescriptive dictionary using "scrutiny and scientific method" but they can't force anybody to agree with their definitions.

It seems to me you're bringing an argument here from elsewhere when you talk about defining atheism as the "default position." As far as I'm aware nobody here has claimed that that is the definition of atheism, and if they did I for one would dispute it.

You haven't presented an effective argument for redefining atheism as a political doctrine. Nor have you argued effectively in support of the idea that atheism is a doctrine in the first place. I think that's because it simply is not. Not a political doctrine, nor a doctrine of any sort. If it were otherwise you'd have given clear and indisputable reasoning to support your assertions rather than leaning entirely on what you claim is a lack of sophistication and rather vague handwaving toward "scientific method."

Certainly some atheists engage in political activity based partly or entirely on their atheism, but that political activity is a result of atheism informing their political focus, rather than atheism itself being inherently political.

ETA: I found your proposed definition in another thread.

Atheism is a political doctrine that opposes theist based doctrine for public policy.

From this we must conclude that apolitical atheists or atheists whose atheism doesn't inform their political position aren't "true" atheists. That is patent rubbish.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 02:28:59 AM by Recusant »
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2019, 01:34:14 AM »
Probably a derail, but I agree.  This election more than any other has pointed out the inherent weaknesses in our particular form of democracy.  The Electoral College was a compromise entered into 250 years ago, but its time has come. It needs to go.  Straight-on democratic voting is what we need.  The Presidency is the one office that we all vote for.  Let it be government of the people, by the people, and for the people, like it's supposed to be.  Eliminate the EC and have a straight majority vote.

I think you'd agree though that the Electoral College is very unlikely to be eliminated any time in the foreseeable future.
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2019, 02:42:21 AM »
Probably a derail, but I agree.  This election more than any other has pointed out the inherent weaknesses in our particular form of democracy.  The Electoral College was a compromise entered into 250 years ago, but its time has come. It needs to go.  Straight-on democratic voting is what we need.  The Presidency is the one office that we all vote for.  Let it be government of the people, by the people, and for the people, like it's supposed to be.  Eliminate the EC and have a straight majority vote.

I think you'd agree though that the Electoral College is very unlikely to be eliminated any time in the foreseeable future.

One can hope and dream.

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2019, 03:06:01 AM »
I put the word, "works," in quotes, because I understand that it is flawed, and I described how it overcomes its flaws to appear to "work." (I am an excellent reasoner) Although, you have a fair collection of grievances, you have not generated a solution. Who do you want to generate a solution - the overwhelming population of Christian lawyers???

How about the point of the paragraph that you erroneously cherry-picked a specific sentence to contest - how do We fix the corrupt governments of the countries that the people are abandoning for the fucked-up racist Amerikkka? My agenda is to fix it!!! Your agenda is to just contest me! You missed the point, because you are jealous that you could not generate a solution.  It would seem that brilliant liberals would have a plan, other than to just welcome them to the racist country to somehow overwhelm the racist population and redistribute the wealth - eventually the wealth runs out.

Actually I think there is a solution, but I doubt you'll pay any mind to it.  You claimed my argument was poor.  I did not make an argument, I just took issue with a ridiculous claim you made.

However the solution to the American political malaise would be to multi faceted.  Abolish the electoral college for a start.  Institute an independent electoral commission to determine electoral boundaries and run elections.  Separate the head of state from the business of running the government, his or her job would be to represent the State in a ceremonial manner, to give assent to legislation passed in both houses, to be the titular head of the military and to swear in ministers (or whatever you want to call them).  Finally, institute an office separate from the president to be the head of government who is the person who commands a majority in the lower house.

I'm not holding my breath expecting any of this to happen.  The US seems enamoured of their current system in much the same way as they are of their guns.  Everybody else in the world can see that it's crazy, but American exceptionalism make most US citizens bling to the obvious
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 04:29:48 AM »
Before we institute a parliamentary system we'd have to take a long, hard look at the shitshow Theresa May is running right now. Nothing is perfect, or even seems even very good.
 

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2019, 02:49:36 PM »
From this we must conclude that apolitical atheists or atheists whose atheism doesn't inform their political position aren't "true" atheists. That is patent rubbish.

They are humanists - they would be referring to themselves in error, if they called themselves, "atheists," if they were apolitical. It seems absurd to believe that they would not be offended by theist doctrine for the basis of public policy - the classic example of a law mandating church attendance.

Humanism is the ontological doctrine that humans define reality. Theism is the ontological doctrine that suggests that the supernatural deities create and define reality. It is absurd to define an ontological doctrine opposed to a defined ontological doctrine, which is what is being committed when assigning "atheism," as anything other than a political doctrine that opposes theist doctrine for the bases of public policy. When atheists claim that atheism is a decision, or unbelief, or whatever along those lines, they are assigning it to be an ontological doctrine/principle for understanding the rest of reality - absent of supernatural intervention.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 10:47:39 PM by SidewalkCynic »
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2019, 03:09:59 PM »
Actually I think there is a solution, but I doubt you'll pay any mind to it.  You claimed my argument was poor.  I did not make an argument, I just took issue with a ridiculous claim you made.
If the USA does not "work" by way of soft corruption, then what explains the past 250 years - divine intervention???

However the solution to the American political malaise would be to multi faceted. . .
I'm not holding my breath expecting any of this to happen.  The US seems enamoured of their current system in much the same way as they are of their guns.  Everybody else in the world can see that it's crazy, but American exceptionalism make most US citizens bling to the obvious
This leads me to understand that you are not a US citizen.

I believe that the United States needs to reorder the entire government charter system. The state and municipalities are all a mess - they just keep quiet, so nobody notices them, because the national media focuses in on the national politics, because the national politicians have to appear to be necessary, otherwise the people will realize that they are not necessary.

The whole system needs to be reordered using the technology that we have, now, that they did not have in the past to structure a three-level government that graduates the arguments and appointment processes. The anticipated system would then be interpret-able for all of the sophisticated languages and convertible for the three sizes of municipal governments dependent on the population of the municipalities. And this will lead to world peace.
If there were a god, then it would have revealed itself to me. There has never been anything more important in the history of Mankind than what I am delivering - scientific collation theory for the organization of technology.

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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2019, 08:47:53 AM »
Roger aka SidewalkCynic. You're a dickhead. But we like dickheads here! Your introduction was shit. No two ways about it, it was shit.

What you should have done is not walked into our 'bar' like you fucking owned it. You don't. Simple.

Found this about you online Why Do I Give Money To Funny Homeless People?

You need better PR and a better attitude when you walk off the street into a 'bar'.

Now I have a face and a bit of background you are much more human and approachable. And then people may at least listen to your ideas.

Your posts are very arrogant and uninviting, they are presumptuous, dictatorial and in no way invite interest.

So welcome aboard Richard.

 
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2019, 03:41:13 PM »
^That's incredible!
 

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your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub
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Re: The Unresolved Issues of Atheism
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2019, 03:49:45 PM »
^That's incredible!

I know! He comes over as such a D******* until one sees he has a sense of humour!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.