Author Topic: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective  (Read 1773 times)

Sandra Craft

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2018, 08:48:59 AM »
As for benefitting from SJW activities, I'm sure some people do. I'd like to ask you to expand upon that thought a little, if you care to. Me, I'm what they call a cis-white-male, and being perfectly OK with that makes me an SJWs natural enemy, what with all my white privilege and oppressing of women and minorities and what have you. *Sigh* To laugh, or cry, or roll one's eyes...

I've ear-marked Tim Pool on YouTube and will listen when I get a minute.

As for benefiting, in addition to being an atheist, I'm also queer, sort of socialist and a feminist.  None of which is all that popular even now but is a lot less dangerous to be these days thanks to the efforts of SJWs.  I also appreciate having the vote (useless as it sometimes seems), of living with considerably less pressure to marry and have kids, and of having had a better chance at getting a decent job which, as a woman, is also thanks to the efforts of SJWs over the years.

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It's... Not easy to word well. I think you understood it correctly, as you have identified it as grayer than a bucket of Asmos. It has to do with the responsibility a person has to themselves in regard to the values they hold and those they oppose. I mean, if we just finished fighting a war with each other over some value, and our values haven't really changed, how important does a goal have to be for us to jump in bed with each other, ignoring said values? Again, I do apologize for the appallingly vague wording - I'm trying to put into writing something... Almost instinctual.

Hm, I was interpreting it as not changing principles and values when they become unpopular.  I definitely don't think principles and values should be subjected to a popularity contest, but on the other hand I do think they should be reconsidered in light of others opinions, just in case they've thought of something I haven't, something important.  Revision shouldn't be mandatory, but it is sometimes necessary.

I'm not sure we need to compromise principles we see no reason to change in order to work with someone who disagrees to achieve a joint goal, but then that can get iffy too.  If we're fighting for the same thing now, but find out we mean to use it to go in opposing directions, should we really be in the same fight at all?
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Asmodean

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2018, 09:21:44 AM »
As for benefiting, in addition to being an atheist, I'm also queer, sort of socialist and a feminist.  None of which is all that popular even now but is a lot less dangerous to be these days thanks to the efforts of SJWs.
There is correlation there, but I'm not sure about causation. This can be debated until we turn blue, then green, then purple, but I would argue that liberals (insert standard disclaimer from earlier) are in a way better on at least two of these issues than the SJWs. You see, we won't pander to demographics, but generally, we don't care about your sexuality as long as you practice it with consenting adults, nor do we tend to care whether you are male or female when it comes to your standing in the eyes of the law. When it comes to feminism... Well, that's a massive barrel of worms in its own right, but here, it sort of depends on what exactly you put into the term. If it is about equal rights for women, then we are largely of the opinion that in the "civilised" world, women do have that, as they should. If there are problems there, demonstrably tied to discrimination, then they ought to be solved. If, however, you go into the intersectionalist post-modern philosophy... Individualists have issues with being collectivised, especially if they are collectivised "wrongly." That's a topic for another thread though, I think... Still self-enforcing my "no tirades" rule :P

EDIT: Failed to address Atheism and Socialism, I see. When it comes to Atehism, we are "all" of us a pretty chill bunch. Socialism, however, is not easily compatible with liberty. Its core tenet is that workers (the Collectiveâ„¢) should own the means of production, while we are firmly on the side of private property being good and necessary for a healthy society. Thus, SJWs do indeed trend towards Socialism to a far higher degree than we, antis.

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I also appreciate having the vote (useless as it sometimes seems), of living with considerably less pressure to marry and have kids, and of having had a better chance at getting a decent job which, as a woman, is also thanks to the efforts of SJWs over the years.
I think those were the achievements of women's liberation movements over the decades. Those participating were not necessarily SJWs of their day and age - you see, you can't avoid subscribing to intersectionality and be an SJW.

I'll try to explain intersectionality in an understandable way. It's about dividing humanity into groups based on a potentially infinite number of degrees of similarity, and viewing the societal dynamics as a constant struggle between the oppressors and the oppressed among those groups. Basically, it's not me vs you, but men vs. women. It's not me vs you, but white men vs white women. It's not me vs you, but white straight men vs white queer women, etc, etc. You see the pattern emerging between individualist and intersectionalist thinking, yes? You are your lattice of group attributes before you are an individual. Disagreeable...

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Hm, I was interpreting it as not changing principles and values when they become unpopular.  I definitely don't think principles and values should be subjected to a popularity contest, but on the other hand I do think they should be reconsidered in light of others opinions, just in case they've thought of something I haven't, something important.  Revision shouldn't be mandatory, but it is sometimes necessary.


I'm not sure we need to compromise principles we see no reason to change in order to work with someone who disagrees to achieve a joint goal, but then that can get iffy too.  If we're fighting for the same thing now, but find out we mean to use it to go in opposing directions, should we really be in the same fight at all?
Yes. Pretty much this. :smilenod: I don't really have a solid, well-thought out answer, but I lean towards "no." An enemy of my enemy may well be my friend, but do I not owe it to myself to figure it out before pitching my tent in his camp?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:32:45 AM by Asmodean »
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2018, 01:20:39 PM »

I can see how, in light of the events I described in the second paragraph, atheism now largely takes a back seat to more pressing concerns in the lives of fellow atheists - that's how it is, and that's how it should be. Still, I find it lamentable that so many in my camp are willing to go along with the religious bullshit of people like Milo (Not attempting to spell that last name - no disrespect intended) and Jordan Peterson simply because they are seen as Anti-SJW wrecking balls, leaving a trail of triggered Tumblrinas everywhere they go and every time they open their mouth. I find it equally lamentable that the likes of Steve Shives (And the SJW-movement in general - not even going into the likes of Antifa) would happily silence dissenting opinions, with reasons anchored in some spectacular mental gymnastics. Have you frogotten the time, when various religious apologists were trying to silence you?

I have a much longer list of grievances with the situation, but I think I can summarise them all in one question; does not believing in god being acceptable enough make it "right" for me as an atheist to forsake or set aside the principles I still hold, and that I once fought a different culture war to protect? To me and what seems to be a handful of others, the answer is "no." I think that in reality, we are many, but the loudest voices trend more towards the fringes.

This is where I think we atheists are today. The question is, where are we headed? Each to his own ideological/political/cultural camp? I did try not to ramble too much, so if you are still reading, I'd like some thoughts/different perspectives.

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Asmodean

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2018, 01:31:20 PM »
Humans are attracted to group camps where they agree they are excellent and get a power up.
Those other camps are bad, very bad, less than us. Double power up.
Absolutely. Good old confirmation bias, this. "Everyone" is guilty of it, which is precisely why I do try to be generous towards the other camps for the purpose of this discussion, so as to try to keep it atheism-centric rather than a bloodbath of ideological viewpoints.

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I've been an outsider mostly forever.

I was a member of the Wilderness Society, they seemed to merge into the Green Party.

I like trees, rivers, wombats, kookaburras, the turtles that go plonk as I paddle by.

I've chosen to be insensitive to the needs of displaced people.
That doesn't sound half-bad, actually. Still, I have to ask, outsider in respect to what? Or are you referring to outdoorsiness? As in, outside as opposed to inside a building or a city or the like?
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Luxembourg trembles.

Bad Penny II

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2018, 01:54:47 PM »
Humans are attracted to group camps where they agree they are excellent and get a power up.
Those other camps are bad, very bad, less than us. Double power up.
Absolutely. Good old confirmation bias, this. "Everyone" is guilty of it, which is precisely why I do try to be generous towards the other camps for the purpose of this discussion, so as to try to keep it atheism-centric rather than a bloodbath of ideological viewpoints.

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I've been an outsider mostly forever.

I was a member of the Wilderness Society, they seemed to merge into the Green Party.

I like trees, rivers, wombats, kookaburras, the turtles that go plonk as I paddle by.

I've chosen to be insensitive to the needs of displaced people.
That doesn't sound half-bad, actually. Still, I have to ask, outsider in respect to what? Or are you referring to outdoorsiness? As in, outside as opposed to inside a building or a city or the like?

Outside of normal humanness.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 02:24:51 PM by Bad Penny II »
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Dave

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2018, 02:08:19 PM »
In that series in morals, linked below, there is discussion about tribalism - perhaps these groupings, and their labels, are a kind of neo-tribalism? Not a lot different from sports team fans, you are either in or out. Exclusionism is not a hew phenomena but has spread to invlude everything from the traditional social class and educational achievement (in terms of Oxbridge and Yalevard v Redbrick, Concrete and Online), to designer wear and being in the right clique at school and online etc.

But the social groupings may be getting smaller and more spread out. Immediate neighbours are less likely to be close friends than people a few miles away. We Haffers are all over the place and few of us can share a pint or a meal with other members without boarding an aircraft.

National movements do spring up, the teen drive (that attracted mature people as well) for more gun control is a good example, as is the Bkack Lives Matter in  a more specific case. A new one is the promotion of veterans for political positions, a possible back-lash after the Trump/McCain antipathy. They are very carefully treading an inclusive, non-partisan line. I can't but think that more, hopefully pragmatic and disciplined, veterans and fewer politicised lawyers in government might not be a bad thing!

Getting OT again.

Society is too complex to consider just a couple of narrow aspects - SJWs are necessary, as are many other sub-divisions and think-groups. It's stitching them all together for the benefit of all that is the stumbling block.
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Asmodean

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2018, 02:39:04 PM »
In that series in morals, linked below, there is discussion about tribalism - perhaps these groupings, and their labels, are a kind of neo-tribalism? Not a lot different from sports team fans, you are either in or out. Exclusionism is not a hew phenomena but has spread to invlude everything from the traditional social class and educational achievement (in terms of Oxbridge and Yalevard v Redbrick, Concrete and Online), to designer wear and being in the right clique at school and online etc.
Yes, there are clear elements of tribalism in this culture war. At times, the tribes overlap, which... May be pretty spectacular to behold. What I find worrying, is the often unspoken, but equally as often blatantly obvious (particularly on the intersectionalist-leaning side of the issue, but we have our examples too) demand for people to "tow the party line" in order to stay "in," even when doing so goes against their better judgement. This is not unique to our day and age, and it touches on why I'm not an ideologue; if my camp decides on something I find disagreeable, I will not tow the line "for party, chairman and the people."

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But the social groupings may be getting smaller and more spread out. Immediate neighbours are less likely to be close friends than people a few miles away. We Haffers are all over the place and few of us can share a pint or a meal with other members without boarding an aircraft.
I think in a way, this is the essence of individualism. Your social grouping is your own sweet self. From there, you can affiliate with people of every stripe and persuasion, based on your interests of the moment. Those people not necessarily being "on your block," however, does mean that going out for a pint may not be an option. I'm not sure if I find that regrettable - on some level, I suppose I do, but do the benefits of being so connected not out-weigh the drawbacks of fewer direct face to face interactions?

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Society is too complex to consider just a couple of narrow aspects - SJWs are necessary, as are many other sub-divisions and think-groups. It's stitching them all together for the benefit of all that is the stumbling block.
I think I'll want to re-visit this topic in a different thread. It's interesting. I don't agree with "necessary," especially if applied to groups like SJWs, Antifa, BLM and the like, in the same sort of way that I don't think the Islamic State is necessary (Before any-one jumps on "Who you callin' a terrorist?!" wagon, note what I did and did not say ;) ) but I do think that they have their place in the current social tapestry, and shifting them out of there, with a vision of a future social tapestry without them, is meaningful to many.
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Icarus

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2018, 09:55:23 PM »

Asmodean

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Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 08:40:55 AM »
It's not really the same matter, as we over in the Westâ„¢ do tend to fight over first-world, luxury sort of bullshit, while those people... Not so much.

I've read up on the goings-on, and it seems to be well in line with how China operates. While I find the practice distasteful, I have so little connection to that area and its people, that I can not "rule on it" one way or the other. Still, it's an interesting topic. There are some goings-on on the international stage, which I think are well-worth covering. I'll see if I can concoct an op-ed or two.
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.