Author Topic: Are we born atheists?  (Read 3686 times)

joeactor

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2018, 04:13:49 PM »
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.

To be an agnostic is still to make a choice that you can not make a choice :)

To label yourself agnostic requires a choice, however, the state of being agnostic is the default when no knowledge exists.

Let's say that everything in the world was apples. And god is a green apple.

Before you knew that apples existed, you had no opinion on if green apples existed. You were agnostic without being aware of any choices. After you encountered red apples, you were told about green apples (god/s)

So, we're all born agnostic of green apples, label or not, because none of us has any knowledge of them.

Those who label themselves Atheists choose that there are no green apples since they've never seen one. Those who label themselves Theists choose that there are green apples (also having not seen them). And those who label themselves Agnostic choose that they don't know if green apples exist or not...

But before the knowledge of apples (red, green or other), and before we label ourselves, we're all by default agnostic of green apples (ie. god/s)

Dave

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2018, 04:56:20 PM »
From my days as a coder, I find it fascinating that most humans split the world into True/False without regard for the "Null" state...

if "True" = "there is a god"
if "False" = "there is no god"
if "Null" = "agnostic"

We are born agnostic, ie. without knowledge, and possibly without beliefs.

Atheism and Theism both require knowledge and choice, where as agnostic requires nothing.

To be an agnostic is still to make a choice that you can not make a choice :)

That's another  case of the use of a word giving it a specific definition.

"Atheist" is disputed because it originates from "theos" which ties it hard to "god".  With "agnostic" "gnostic" relates to "knowledge", just because someone sort of added a reference to "god", so it equals, "one to whom nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God". This apparently does not mean they deny "god" or are ignorant of "god's" existence, just know nothing about such an entity or its existence.

So I am with Tank, an agnostic, as used, is something decided and that requires knowledge of the concept of "god".

By extension "recognise" could come to mean, "return to accepting the understood nature of god."
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2018, 03:05:18 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Dave

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2018, 05:09:23 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?
One might also ask why some theists think we are born immediately subject to their god's will. Maybe so subject even before birth.

To them it is a matter of faith and belief. To the atheist it is, perhaps, more philosophical (yet pragmatic) but still a matter of contention. Perhaps it it a case of "practising the argument" (just in case it is challenged) and reaffirming the atheist "belief" - after all, many theists reaffirm and celebrate their faith and belief constantly with prayer, hymns, sermons, even sacrifices in some cases.

Why should atheists be different? We are still humans who, mostly, have need for reassurance and a sense of being part of a "society."
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Tank

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2018, 06:32:37 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
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Sandra Craft

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2018, 07:57:41 PM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

I think it might be a reaction to being told so often that everyone is born with a knowledge of god, and therefore there is no atheism and anyone who thinks they're an atheist is either lying or deluded.  A statement like that really begs a comeback.
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Icarus

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2018, 01:07:37 AM »
^ A comeback is my first thought too Sandy. On second thought, there is no use refuting the claims of deluded people who actually believe that non believers are deluded. 

Dave

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2018, 08:01:12 AM »
^ A comeback is my first thought too Sandy. On second thought, there is no use refuting the claims of deluded people who actually believe that non believers are deluded.

That is my tendency, if they are "quiet" theists and do not raise the matter I leave them in peace in their ignorance.

But I still feel concerned about the effect on any kids they have.

Evangelists and prosetylisers, however, deserve all the "negative feedback" they get!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 08:48:30 AM by Dave »
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Tank

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2018, 09:28:20 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2018, 07:14:10 PM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won’t concern myself with their thoughts.

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2018, 08:41:20 PM »
Tank:
It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.

What's so arrogant about being the mostest specially specialists species in all of the everythings, hmmm, Tank?

joeactor

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2018, 02:08:35 AM »
Tank:
It's the arrogant presumption of theism that needs to be countered.

What's so arrogant about being the mostest specially specialists species in all of the everythings, hmmm, Tank?

... there is a bit of irony in the thread title for this statement ;-)

Sandra Craft

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2018, 06:07:54 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won’t concern myself with their thoughts.

You might feel differently if you lived in a Muslim majority country and your everyday life could be affected by what Muslims think of you.
Sandy

  

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Tank

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2018, 08:12:32 AM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won’t concern myself with their thoughts.

Well they care what you think. And would tax you or some would kill you if they could.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

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Re: Are we born atheists?
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2018, 02:10:16 PM »
Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won’t concern myself with their thoughts.

You might feel differently if you lived in a Muslim majority country and your everyday life could be affected by what Muslims think of you.

Why is the question of whether we are born atheists or not of any import?

Well according to Islam you were born a Muslim.

I will never be able to convince them otherwise, so I won’t concern myself with their thoughts.

Well they care what you think. And would tax you or some would kill you if they could.

Yes. Some factions are not exactly into 'live and let live' these days...
Give no mercy to your fear.