Author Topic: illegal drone use.  (Read 698 times)

Davin

  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7103
  • Gender: Male
  • (o°-°)=o o(o*-°)
    • DevPirates
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2018, 09:02:06 PM »
You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .
Yep, in other words, not from scratch and traceable. I don't see what I have to expand on you seem to have gotten it.

Hmm, well I was querying the "but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. ". As I impkied, my attic and small dining table would surfice, I could possibly get away without using my oscilloscope and lab power supply for a single clandestine unit - just "normal" hobby tools and a bit of brain power.

Hmm, there are those types who would rather do this kind of work than have a legit job. How many brilliant hackers are out there doing risky stuff when they could earn a bundle, steadily and at less risk, in a company or agency? The criminal mind does not work like ours methinks. I am not interested in another full time job but maybe grabbing a quick grand or so for a week's work (including delivery time) . . . And once a design and templates are made the second unit comes quicker.

No, actually I can't be bothered! But I might do it just for fun, I rather fancy the idea of a wooden drone! Good design excercise seeking strength with lightness and fancy fretwork needed.
If you're going to make processors, propellers, cameras, and everything else from scratch, you're going to need a lot more equipment and a place to put it all. You're also going to need a place to get the raw materials from. You're also going to need a way to mask the fumes from production. If you buy those things instead from Amazon and/or hobby shops then you're traceable.

Hackers like that don't really exist. The ones taking the risks for quick scores are not that great. The good ones are getting paid for their expertise in much less risky ventures. Look back at the phreakers, even Cap'n Crunch wasn't that great, he risked a lot for very little and got caught. He didn't look for challenges, he looked for easy ways to circumvent systems. Kevin Mitnik used manipulative techniques on people to find ways past challenging technology barriers. Even the "great" hackers were more concerned about finding the easy way than they were about meeting the challenge. And they were all caught because they failed to adapt when the systems they were attacking became more complicated and more challenging. I can't think of a hacker that actually went for something more challenging instead of the first easy way that works. This idea that there are hackers that are simply doing it for the challenge is a fairy tale. As much as they would like to present themselves, these are not wizards warping reality to their will, they are simply opportunists much like any other criminal.

I don't understand this glorification of hackers as challenge seekers. Spend some time around them, talk to them, and/or work with them. Then you won't keep making that mistake. There are hardly any brilliant hackers out there that are stealing from people, they make a lot of money finding vulnerabilities and reporting them, consulting, and helping companies beef up their security. Sure, some of those brilliant ones did some bad things, but us regular people don't need to fear them.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6233
  • Gender: Male
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2018, 09:57:53 PM »
Aw, c'mon, Davin! When did the goal posts move to making every frigging component needed from processors up?

If you are saying that every purchaser of every electronic unit, from basic stuff up, is monitored, logged and flagged it would probably bankrupt all the security budgets America and Europe has. Looking for reliable patterns surely requires the analysis of a very large percentage of all traffic or sales. Should I start buying oxidisers - nitrates, peroxide etc - and suitable fuels on line or in bulk yes, I would expect a knock on the door. Batteries, motors, props, RC units are all hobby stuff - the level the work would be carried out at.

Or is every battery, motor, RC unit, camera et al, bought directly from China, logged by the security services for trace-back purposes?

This conversation is getting stupid, and not in a funny way.

Remind me not to bother in future please.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Icarus

  • The wise one.
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5029
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2018, 01:28:43 AM »
I have enough model maker stuff in my garage to build more than one functional drone. Motors, some of which came from battery powered drills,  from various kid toys from garage sales, from $19.95 RC boats at Wal Mart,  Transmitters, receivers, electronic speed controllers, A whole drawer full of servos, and pretty much any other component Needed. I even have several pounds of tiny bolts and nuts from many years of model making., playing with RC aircraft, RC sail boats, and other such toys for grown up kids. . There are the hobby trader meets where all sorts of things are exchanged for all sorts of other things , often enough from total strangers who keep no records of trades or the money they might make from a simple sale, or several sales.

I have no particular interest in drones and no particular interest in using my Go Cam, attached to a drone,  to look into the windows of the girls dorm at one of the nearby colleges.  I am not much interested in surveying or bombing or using an incendiary device to get revenge on my neighbor.................actually there is one....naaah never mind.  Not a neighbor, a business MFer who hornswoggled me out of three grand  two years ago.

 If I was motivated to do some evil I could, and I would not be traced.  I am no where near the intellect of Ted Kazinski, the Unabomber,  but he could jolly well make and use drones if he had wished to do so.  There be dragons out there. Lots of dragons, clever fire breathing ones.

I swear to the reader that I am personally acquainted with at least 10 individuals who are eminently capable of building a drone if they wanted to.  I think that there are a few HAFers who could do that too.  JJ is plenty clever, He'd use some haywire and tractor pats. Dave is crafty and capable, and it would not surprise me if Mags could build a drone if she damn well wanted to. She is a smart butterfly/witch.  The witch part could easily conceal the sources of the necessary parts.  Hermes no problem, he could do some serious chemical dispersal harm if he chose.  how about Claire Lion tamer? She is a physics girl.   This is not about capability.  It is about intent.




jumbojak

  • Chandler's Pale Cock Slurper
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • The Iconic Iconoclast
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2018, 01:43:11 AM »
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
 

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub
" Please hold your high school or college math books in higher esteem than
your copy of the KJV. " - Icarus

Old Seer

  • Was God's Anointed But Took a Shower
  • *
  • Posts: 218
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2018, 02:13:11 AM »
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
This is what I kinda had in mind with the OP. At Quartzsite each winter there's 7000 and more RV snowbirds from all over the US and Canada. That's an attraction for all manner of venders, and the best ones are the gadget sellers. The gadget lady has every kind of electric DC motor from thumb size to drill size. All sorts of gadgets and hobby tools. I don't think the average person that has a drone would be to interested (or have the intellect) to do a crime with a drone. I spent some time today figuring out how to rob a bank to see what the specs would be. Nada--it's to complicated and a drone dosen't fit the logic to use it for such, But, the big guys dealing drugs etc would have a practical use for them.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6233
  • Gender: Male
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2018, 07:08:59 AM »
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
This is what I kinda had in mind with the OP. At Quartzsite each winter there's 7000 and more RV snowbirds from all over the US and Canada. That's an attraction for all manner of venders, and the best ones are the gadget sellers. The gadget lady has every kind of electric DC motor from thumb size to drill size. All sorts of gadgets and hobby tools. I don't think the average person that has a drone would be to interested (or have the intellect) to do a crime with a drone. I spent some time today figuring out how to rob a bank to see what the specs would be. Nada--it's to complicated and a drone dosen't fit the logic to use it for such, But, the big guys dealing drugs etc would have a practical use for them.

Yes, horses for courses, even the best tool is useless for a specific task it is not deeigned for. "Couriering" yes, actually robhing bsnks no. But, for the moment and until the security services, private and official, catch up "casing the joint" - landing a drone on a hewrby rooftop at night, might prove useful. Battery life is a big factor, but there are possibilities, the drone might just deliver a "robot" camera package, not stay there itself. All spevulation but not fully outside current tech possibly.

Perhaps, one day, like the anti-bird nets and plastic spikes used on roofs in Gloucester sensitive areas will bristle with drone countermeasures! Solar powered units with detectors for drone audio or RF signatures and the capability of zapping their control units. . . OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it? Depends how much of a problem drones become to those who have something to protect and the clout and cash to do something about it.

From then it is just a battle of inventiveness, measures and counter measures, desires and thwarts, just the way a lot of other tech gets advanced.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Recusant

  • Miscreant Erendrake
  • Administrator
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5902
  • Gender: Male
  • infidel barbarian
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2018, 11:34:06 AM »
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol. I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6233
  • Gender: Male
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2018, 12:06:52 PM »
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol. I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Davin

  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7103
  • Gender: Male
  • (o°-°)=o o(o*-°)
    • DevPirates
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2018, 03:03:10 PM »
Aw, c'mon, Davin! When did the goal posts move to making every frigging component needed from processors up?
I never moved the goal posts, if you look back at what I said, that should be clear.

Not every component is tracked, but specific ones are, and as long as they are not purchased along with certain other products, people are fine. Even if people buy a flagging combination, that just means they get researched, and possibly watched more closely. It does not bankrupt security budgets, 99% of the work is automated. If you look at what was released from Snowden, you'll see that while they are busy, applications take on the bulk of the data sifting.

I'd like to see someone build a drone. Take pictures and whatnot showing all the parts used. Hell, show me ten different people making a drone with all the parts used.

Any idiot can just say something is possible, it takes more to actually demonstrate it. We have up to 13 people mentioned in this thread that are said to have the ability to do it, I say do it then. If a criminal can do it in an untraceable way, surely it wouldn't take that much of someone's time to just do what you say you can do.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Old Seer

  • Was God's Anointed But Took a Shower
  • *
  • Posts: 218
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2018, 05:52:42 PM »
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol. I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
One of my points from the OP. The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them. Drones will merely create more criminals. How many floks want to be restricted to flying their drone around the park. It wouldn't take me very long to get bored with the thing anyways. After the fad wears off only criminals are left, basically. Imagine the asset these dealies would be to large farmers and ranchers.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Davin

  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7103
  • Gender: Male
  • (o°-°)=o o(o*-°)
    • DevPirates
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2018, 06:13:53 PM »
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6233
  • Gender: Male
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2018, 06:19:40 PM »
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol. I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
One of my points from the OP. The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them. Drones will merely create more criminals. How many floks want to be restricted to flying their drone around the park. It wouldn't take me very long to get bored with the thing anyways. After the fad wears off only criminals are left, basically. Imagine the asset these dealies would be to large farmers and ranchers.
Yeah, a lot of technology, including (anti)social media, has two edges. It's a boon that often bites back when naughty people manipulate it for antisocial purposes. Still, can't blame the hardware, it's the people. I am sure No one would agree with that!

I think drones will always be available for legit survey work and search and rescue - just hoping it is also available to sensible pro. and am. photographers, have seen some brilliant images online that would take an aircraft or balloon to get close to. I can imagine what the director of the archaeological dig I worked on would make of one! But there we had a friendly neighbour with his own helicopter.

I also would get bored with just flying one around a field with no real purpose. Would happily buy a decent one for proper survey work if the market round here was not already well catered for (and I was more mobile.)
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Old Seer

  • Was God's Anointed But Took a Shower
  • *
  • Posts: 218
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2018, 08:59:00 PM »
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Davin

  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7103
  • Gender: Male
  • (o°-°)=o o(o*-°)
    • DevPirates
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2018, 09:01:37 PM »
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
Doesn't sound argumentative, just sounds like you didn't read what I wrote. I did say, "Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts."

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Old Seer

  • Was God's Anointed But Took a Shower
  • *
  • Posts: 218
Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2018, 10:01:06 PM »
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
Doesn't sound argumentative, just sounds like you didn't read what I wrote. I did say, "Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts."
Oh, you're correct. I'm not as good at speed reading as I used to be. I have no doubt that drones will be regulated, and quite severely I suspect. A drone is not a rifle of course, so if you going to commit a crime with it you have to be present to use it. A drone can carry the weapon for you and you can be a half mile away. With nothing to ID who's, where's and whats, you can get away with it.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.