Author Topic: illegal drone use.  (Read 1374 times)

Old Seer

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illegal drone use.
« on: May 08, 2018, 02:49:17 AM »
They want to past a law that makes it a crime to "weaponize" civilian drones or use them to help your buddies do crimes. Blink, Blink. Y/N- do you think a person wanting to do a crime cares about whether it's illegal to help commit a crime with a drone and drops a 1 lb bomb on a street corner.
Lemme see here now. If I was with a few guys that wanted to rob the local bank if I employed my drone for a share of the take, would I care if it was illegal. Hmmm, no. As far as I would be concerned using the drone would improve the chances of a successful venture. (as long as they couldn't find out who's drone it is) Isn't that the idea of why people do things illegal---because  they don't care if it's illegal.  Am I missing something here.  ::)
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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 03:56:11 AM »
The fact they make it illegal gives them something to punish for.

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Dave

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 07:17:07 AM »
Sort of sgree with Arturo. The mere posession of a drone modified for possible criminal use could be taken as "evidence of intent". Gives the police an excuse to interogate people and search property.

Terrorists have not taken advantage of these yet. Should they do so ine might expect severe load carrying limitations on unregistered drones. But then, why worry about a drone when you can buy semi-automatic weapons just down the road and open carry in some places?
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Davin

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 04:51:44 PM »
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.

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Dave

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 05:16:04 PM »
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.

I know that it is a slightly different application but rescue drones, carrying floatation aids, are being trialled. Not sure of their carrying capacity but if Amazon are even thinking about deliveries by drones a useful payload/range/control may be available that are suitable for some criminal or terrorist purposes.

UK prisons are already being fitted with "electronic fences" designed to interfere with drone control systems, not to crash them because that may cause third party injury or damage but to "persuade" them to return home. Drones have been used to deliver drugs, SIMs and even phones to individual windows. For high value stuff range may be less important in terms of the return journey; sacrificial drones, with small batteries to increase carrying capacity, may be deemed worth it.

With drone components, 3D printers etc being easily available a nice little industry might build up unless the law and technology get a grip. In the past the law has often been retroactive, now it needs to be proactive, technology leaps and bounds ahead very rapidly!

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Davin

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 05:42:48 PM »
You can't yet 3D print the parts needed to protect a bomb from being accidentally triggered by rogue signals. Buying something that will work, along with a heavy duty drone, should trigger all the flags. Just routing a wire from a drone to the detonator will not work. They don't care if a wire randomly spikes for a fraction of a second, and they tend to do that a lot. It doesn't noticeably affect the operation of the drone unless you are tracking the data. It takes some very delicate electronic equipment to have a live wire that doesn't have spike. Detonators are safe, but they are also watched.

I'm sure that stuff is on more than a few watch lists, which is why they tend to use more common detonation technology that is more prone to accidental triggering. Which is relatively fine, if you're wearing a vest and walking into a crowd, the chances it will accidentally detonate increases the more other people around them that are using their phones or other electronic devices, which doesn't really hurt their goal.

They might be able to build their own, but I don't think they have the time and resources for the R&D.

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Old Seer

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 09:20:05 PM »
Mainly what I was getting at/to, is this the same as the right to keep and bear arms. I wouldn't think so because the founders didn't have drones. But, all drones without serial numbers would have to be made illegal. Part of my point, how can the control and use of drones be regulated. OK, via serial numbers and registry as if a drone were considered a licensable aircraft. But there again, if I wanted to help someone do a crime I can make them a drone to suit the crime. At the same time it's abit harder to machine out a pistol then it is to make a drone, as the drone is made by different process and machine.
 Here's a link that got me going on this- it came from my firfox morning opener, and some of you probably get the same.

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/05/criminal-gang-used-drone-swarm-obstruct-fbi-raid/147956/

Here's my problem with this (I could have done a better job with the OP) A drone is not a rifle and it's use can be extremely covert, very quiet propellers etc. I (and as well as you if your into the sciences and physics as I) can use this device so secretly I can't be caught, except over time. There's no known manufacturer, no known origin, which means I can use them the same as the Gov on a battle field. I wouldn't have to worry about defeat radar as the job would be done before they could do anything about it. 

Ok, so here's the problem--- the very invention of this device created something that cannot be beat. Think about that--and that's the point I was trying to make. How do regulations stop the works????? What laws can you propose to keep police depts from misuse of this device--because as everything else they will misuse it.

Anyone can set one of these down anywhere unnoticed, drive away, and let it do it's thing it's programed to do---no remote guidance needed. Thats what makes it different then a firearm. It becomes a self guided projectile. anyone can make or have made.
 Forget the link, you'll have to register- you probably can search online
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Old Seer

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 09:37:44 PM »
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.

I know that it is a slightly different application but rescue drones, carrying floatation aids, are being trialled. Not sure of their carrying capacity but if Amazon are even thinking about deliveries by drones a useful payload/range/control may be available that are suitable for some criminal or terrorist purposes.

UK prisons are already being fitted with "electronic fences" designed to interfere with drone control systems, not to crash them because that may cause third party injury or damage but to "persuade" them to return home. Drones have been used to deliver drugs, SIMs and even phones to individual windows. For high value stuff range may be less important in terms of the return journey; sacrificial drones, with small batteries to increase carrying capacity, may be deemed worth it.

With drone components, 3D printers etc being easily available a nice little industry might build up unless the law and technology get a grip. In the past the law has often been retroactive, now it needs to be proactive, technology leaps and bounds ahead very rapidly!
You brought out my point exactly. If I want to burn down my rich uncle's house in the middle of the night to inherit his pazoozas what's to stop me. Bear in mind--there's no physical presents of me in the area, and all there is - is suspicion. Suspicion won't stop my inheritance. I don't have to sneak or throw a toaster in to the shower etc. And, I have 42 other relatives, if any of them have a drone hobby---I'm in the clear. So, law or no law anyone can have a handy device that can't be traced. This gives those who already are criminals a very unique helping hand. The Al Capones in the world don't need tommy guns any more.
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Dave

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 09:39:02 PM »
Hmm, can we expect anti-drone electronic counter measures mounted on every cellphone mast? Cover all urban areas, at least, with antidrone noise, portable undercover units available for specific operations? Ice cream vans with antennas inside the glassfibre cone, or whatever, on the roof?

It's all getting very sci-fi, but, that is part of the nature of developing technology after all, catching up with fiction. The baddies do their best to at least keep up with the goodies, or even keep in trick ahead. I would love to know just what kind, if any, predictive research into which possible criminal use of technology will pop up next. But, as I said before, such work is usually retroactive. Or should that be reactionary?

There has to be a story theme here . . .
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Davin

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 09:45:59 PM »
Drones are not unstoppable nor untraceable. They are not some kind of magical technology that defies physics.

Currently, AI is not good enough for drones to self pilot. And the ones that can manage to pilot without a human operator do so with the heavy use of data from one or many services which can and often are tracked (sometimes without even a warrant).

The more criminals use the technology, the faster law enforcement will figure out how to subvert and trace down the people using it.

Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.

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Old Seer

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 10:29:06 PM »
Drones are not unstoppable nor untraceable. They are not some kind of magical technology that defies physics.

Currently, AI is not good enough for drones to self pilot. And the ones that can manage to pilot without a human operator do so with the heavy use of data from one or many services which can and often are tracked (sometimes without even a warrant).

The more criminals use the technology, the faster law enforcement will figure out how to subvert and trace down the people using it.

Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.
Google is already working with the military to put AI in drones. Being familiar with GPS I know vwry well I can make a drone go anywhere within it's limit and land "on the GPS spot" I want it to. It's already being done at Quartzsite AZ every winter. I stay there over winter with a camping permit on BLM land and watch guys flying these things everywhere. If it gets out of sight a button is pressed that resets the GPS and it will return to where it took off. From what I've seen it's already here. It won't require AI, all thats needed is GPS capability. Campers are already getting highly irritated by drones from some where else whizzing around their campsites. There's groups of ATV types that send notes and maps to each other via drone before the mornings desert trip.  One fella was so upset he's bringing a shotgun next year to down any drone in his vicinity. Having watched this sort of thing all I'm saying is--it's already out of hand. I'm not in a panic--I've seen what's already happening. There's no way a drone can be tracked as to who owns it, or where it came from if the operator wants it that way. International criminals are already building their own drones and there's not a thing Scotland Yard can do about it. Making it illegal to build a private drone wouldn't stop anything. That's the #1 problem with criminals, they don't obey laws. :)
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Dave

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 10:34:16 PM »
Quote
Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.

I think we understand that, Davin, there is a touch of humour in this thread I think. But, getting into the wider tech crime field, it takes effort to keep up with how the bad guys use technology, or there would be an swful lots less online fraud and hacking. Not unstoppable, but for as long as it can be moved, morphed, disguised by novel means etc the good guys will always be lagging. They may get their man, after the crime. Unless, of vourse, they do get permission access all encyphered systems, to monitor every single phone call, email, Tweet etc for key words/patterns. That will need a very large amount of kit and lots of trained people - or "proper" AIs. And there are billions of potential "one time only" code words and phrases that could be used.

I wonder what the ratio of all very clever people doing all levels of naughty things to the number of good guys trying to catch them and safeguard the future against them is. The person, msybe a kid, in his/her bedroom/hotel room with a laptop is "cheaper" than the security agency team tasked with finding him. It takes a couple of dozen well trained and equipped agents to successully follow one person 24/7 physically. Unless the hacker person has already done something that makes him/her a suspect they are effectively invisible until their work becomes visible due to its effects - and therefore possibly traceable back. To where the laptop was used and has long since moved from. If they made a million all the kit is probably at the bottom of the nearest lake. Even fires can leave forensic evidence in or near them.

I am still half working out the plot and line of my story here. Need viable kinks and loops that have not become too common in the genre yet. Please pick it apart! As fiction gets ideas from reality the opposite can actually apply.
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jumbojak

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2018, 03:31:30 AM »
I wonder how much fears like this will hamper "legitimate" drone usage? I'd very much like to have one for checking fence lines and cattle. It's a great piece of technology that could save a lot of man hours, especially if the operation can be automated. They are already in use for exactly this purpose in some areas. There's no telling what sort if silly rules might be put in place as people grow more paranoid about drone usage.
 

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Arturo

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2018, 03:56:32 AM »
I remember when drones were toys you would get your nephew for christmas...sigh

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Dave

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Re: illegal drone use.
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2018, 04:51:01 AM »
I wonder how much fears like this will hamper "legitimate" drone usage? I'd very much like to have one for checking fence lines and cattle. It's a great piece of technology that could save a lot of man hours, especially if the operation can be automated. They are already in use for exactly this purpose in some areas. There's no telling what sort if silly rules might be put in place as people grow more paranoid about drone usage.

Yeah, the legit uses are grest, we even have a licenced drone operator advertise in our village magazine to do surveys for farmers. Let's hope that the crims, and kids who fly them irresponsibly, don't cause the authotities to do worse than require licencing. Not that that will stop the problems much. But it may also curb a lot of innocent fun.
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