Author Topic: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS  (Read 595 times)

Madbunny

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Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« on: March 26, 2018, 03:13:03 PM »

“Men create gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form, but with regard to their mode of life.”
― Aristotle


https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2018/01/18/hhs-ocr-announces-new-conscience-and-religious-freedom-division.html

Go ahead and read the description.  It's reasonably short, if you can accept the Orwellian descriptions, in a nutshell its a division in the HHS that exists to enforce religious exemptions to health care, along with a few 'something something' protections clauses.


This, in my opinion is what happens when we allow our laws to go down the slippery slope of attempting to moralize legality.
By moralizing portions of our government what we wind up with is the base problem of having believers who will ultimately
decide that not agreeing with it equates with immorality.    By tying morality into our laws, and adding religious conviction to them
what we then have is the slide that continues down past immorality in the minds of its adherents, into the concept of 'sinning'
against the government.

To clarify somewhat: I am not against the idea of having morality as part of a mission statement; I am against enshrining that morality
into the force of law, to follow religious doctrine.

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Old Seer

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2018, 12:01:15 PM »
Progressive Insanity Syndrome. Immorality becomes morality. It's why the world gets worse over time. The first problem is--the skewed understanding of what is human and what isn't.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Dragonia

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 01:37:24 PM »
I can't believe they actually created a separate division for this. It's crazy! I feel like with every new development, our nation is being divided into 2 separate sides.
I also found this from the article interesting:
Quote
OCR Director Severino said, “Laws protecting religious freedom and conscience rights are just empty words on paper if they aren’t enforced. No one should be forced to choose between helping sick people and living by one’s deepest moral or religious convictions, and the new division will help guarantee that victims of unlawful discrimination find justice. For too long, governments big and small have treated conscience claims with hostility instead of protection, but change is coming and it begins here and now.”

It seems like a big fat contradiction.

It's shit like this that makes me have to breathe deeply and evenly and plan to vote. I don't know what else to do. 
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Dave

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 02:35:06 PM »
Does this mean that an atheist doctor can refuse to treat religious people if it goes against his or her conscience?
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Dragonia

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 03:01:43 PM »
I guess so...it  seems like it should go both ways. But maybe it wouldn't count because Atheism isn't a religion. But then maybe it can fall under the conscience category. But really once we start going here, it seems like you can claim conscience or religious contradictions within your heart anytime you don't like somebody, for whatever reason. I hate to re-use the "slippery slope" phrase, but it seems sometimes it just fits.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Bad Penny II

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 03:25:45 PM »
What is the actual problem?
A doctor is against abortion, birth control, ye well they don't offer that service.

Quote
Laws protecting religious freedom and conscience rights are just empty words on paper if they aren’t enforced.

Odd usage of freedom, I think of allowing freedom, not enforcing it.

Up against the wall you scumbags,
We're here to enforce your freedom
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 03:53:26 PM by Bad Penny II »
Certainty disturbs me


Dave

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 04:19:35 PM »
I guess so...it  seems like it should go both ways. But maybe it wouldn't count because Atheism isn't a religion. But then maybe it can fall under the conscience category. But really once we start going here, it seems like you can claim conscience or religious contradictions within your heart anytime you don't like somebody, for whatever reason. I hate to re-use the "slippery slope" phrase, but it seems sometimes it just fits.

Yeah, this is a wedge that can slip in anywhere once it is "normalised". And wedges are as good for splitting things up as the are for simply holding things in place.

Is it even possible to frame a law or rule that applies to only one group in the whole nation in a situation like this? Religion has enough special privileges in most countries where, supposedly, it has no place in the government of the nation. To give self-declared religious people a protected right above others is a serious dent in the civil rights of self-declared secularists, let alone possibly removing life saving aid from the LGBT+ community, who may also be religious.

Wonder when America will form a Moral Protection Agency - like the Saudi religious police? Seems like a logical step on from this.

Bad enough that we have religionistas in our House of Lords but they have been keeping their heads down in recent years. And the English Anglicans are getting as soft over gays and gay priests as the American Anglicans are.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Arturo

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 08:11:35 PM »
Athiests are just Christians in denial of their own Christianity, duh

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Madbunny

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 10:54:34 PM »
What is the actual problem?
A doctor is against abortion, birth control, ye well they don't offer that service.

The problem is that a doctor is using religion as a basis to determine or deny medical care rather than science or the patience direct needs.  This isn't coming as a surprise to them as medical professionals, they knew it going into the field of medicine.  In some cases, for example doctors who object to not being allowed to send their patients to conversion therapy are perversely complaining that they're ability to persecute others is being denied.

Its why you don't see a lot of licenced and certified Amish truck drivers refusing to drive.

The main issue with this, is that it allows for the legislation of religious morality, which honestly most people tend to like until the legislation is controlled by people with religious morals that vary from their own.  The smart thing is to keep religion out of it by design.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Dave

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 11:22:18 PM »
Quote
The smart thing is to keep religion out of it by design.

Well, Madbunny, that intention in the constitution is working well in America's policy forming bodies it seems. Religion is, in some ways, built into ours but rarely gets seriously in the way of common sense legislation and appeals in individual cases are mostly judged on general merit, as in the case where the decision was, "If you are a "public" baker you cannot legally refuse to make a wedding cake because the happy couple are both blokes."

That might leave the gate open for suing the doctor who refuses to treat a sick person because said doctor finds the patient's sexual orientation objectionable. Though there is room for refusing certain treatments where the patient's problem lifestyle, if continued, will undo that treatment. But the ballet dancer gets treatment for "vocational injuries" so they can carry on dancing - and thus risk further injury - where a heavy smoker who refuses to give up might be refused a lung transplant.
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Recusant

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2018, 08:28:40 AM »
I suspect that this and similar moves made by the Trump administration are being pushed by the "evangelical Catholic" Vice President Pence. Trump pandered to the rabid evangelical/Dominionist demographic in his campaign, but practically nobody believes that he has any genuine interest in their agenda. Pence on the other hand is a true believer who strongly supports the right-wing Christian agenda and ideology.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2018, 08:37:55 AM »
Hmm, theocracy slipping in by the side door?
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Arturo

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2018, 07:15:34 PM »
I suspect that this and similar moves made by the Trump administration are being pushed by the "evangelical Catholic" Vice President Pence. Trump pandered to the rabid evangelical/Dominionist demographic in his campaign, but practically nobody believes that he has any genuine interest in their agenda. Pence on the other hand is a true believer who strongly supports the right-wing Christian agenda and ideology.

Pence could be a manipulating sociopath and Trump is a destructive psychopath?

Shield & Sword anyone?

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Madbunny

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Re: Conscience and Religious Freedom Division at HHS
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 01:22:43 AM »
Hmm, theocracy slipping in by the side door?

Well, knowing how these things work, I'd speculate the back door is more appropriate as a metaphor.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.