Author Topic: Islam and Atheism  (Read 4448 times)

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #105 on: March 25, 2018, 10:32:21 AM »
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Dave

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #106 on: March 25, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Fatih

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #107 on: March 25, 2018, 11:22:09 AM »
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.

Tank  I am sorry, your allegations only includes hate but nothing.
I am also a human and I am not responsible to response these kind of message because they wear out me.

I am here to help and share but not for destruct my self.

Therefore this is the last message you get from me.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #108 on: March 25, 2018, 11:23:38 AM »
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

That is not true you asked about an ayah which includes historical event and I answered. that is it.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2018, 11:36:11 AM »
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.

Tank  I am sorry, your allegations only includes hate but nothing.
I am also a human and I am not responsible to response these kind of message because they wear out me.

I am here to help and share but not for destruct my self.

Therefore this is the last message you get from me.
Pity you can't face the truth. But that's no surprise. I suggest you join a forum of ex-Muslim atheists such asCouncil of Ex-Muslims of Britain. You may learn something there if you are prepared to listen.

Remember I don't hate you. The mythology you support is a blight on humanity. You came here to preach and got your arse handed to you on a plate. The world is past religion. I have a load of atheist friends on Facebook many are ex-theists, both Christians and Muslims. You should see how upset Christians and Muslims get when their precious myths are very effectively rubbished by ex-theist atheists. And you know what? It's never going to stop. Religions can't hide any more. On-line there is no such thing as religious privilege. The Internet will be the death of religions. It might take a while but then we're having to undo thousands of years of indoctrination, ignorance and superstition. But it will happen because religions are lies on myths. As Abraham Lincoln said “You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” and this will destroy religions.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #110 on: March 25, 2018, 11:38:11 AM »
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

That is not true you asked about an ayah which includes historical event and I answered. that is it.

I thought you'd left? Can't even follow your own rules. I think that was the best example of 'Shakers Law' I have ever seen!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #111 on: March 25, 2018, 12:00:36 PM »
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Dave

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2018, 12:31:37 PM »
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
Aw, be fair, Tank, some of those conspiracies come from what we call the East - Russia.

But there is truth there, some Western countries have, to their later regret, supported groups that later proved to simply be violent people. That those violent people hold onto their version of the Islamic faith is a blight on that Islamic faith.  If the Muslims wish to be rid of that stain they must deal with every killer and every supporter of those killers.

Since the two main groups involved in global violence, al Qaeda and Daesh, with their associates, plus the Taliban (who are seemingly promoting the world heroin market) are Sunni in origin what are you doing about this, Fatih? Simply denying they are not part of how you see your religion is not enough.

You were apparently born into, were educated by and have studied a very narrow field of hunan belief and experience. Before you can fully understand yourself you must understand how others see you and reconcile that in mutually understandable ways. All we have heard from you is, "You do not understand . . . You cannot accept . . ." etc. The Islamic and the midern Western mind (well, most of them) have grown far apart.

Like Tank I have no hatred in my heart towards you. I have no hatred of the peaceful and compassionate aspects of religion - believe what you wish. But you are not qualified, and have no right, to tell us what to beleive or how to think. You only preach from your narrow pulpit.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 01:02:01 PM by Dave »
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Guardian85

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #113 on: March 25, 2018, 12:33:58 PM »
The ottomans took boys from their families in the Balkans and Eastern European countries, force marched them to Turkey, and abused them until their spirits were broken and then brainwashed them into being obedient servants. Nothing willing about that.
And you called the ottomans just.

I think somepeople has really tallent to turn every good thing to evil.
First of all devsirmes were not slaves. Generally they were war orphans without family and they were protected by sending them to Turkish wealthy families. The biggest evidence that they were not slaves nor treated bad is, as I said before Ottomans has very famous and successful viziers (King's right hands) like
Rum Mehmed Paşa,
Veli Mahmud Paşa,
Yunus Paşa ,
Rüstem Paşa,
Sokollu Mehmed Paşa,
Kuyucu Murat Paşa
and
Pargalı İbrahim Paşa

another important thing; when Ottomans conquer a country (because of the Islamic rules) they had to protect them like they had do protect their families (their own folk).
Can you protect a county without soldiers? Especially considering you are an Emperor ruling nearly 1/3 of the world? Where can you find soldiers enough to do it.
Therefore they got 1/5 of the young boys from the country they conquer under military service. And they treated them as their own folk NOT as SLAVES!!!
If you don't live in an imaginary world in which everything is pink. You will understand this process was necessary to keep big Emperor alive "TO MAINTAIN PEOPLE RULING IN JUSTICE"
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
You say they got 1/5 of the young boys from the countries they invaded. You show then that you know they are slaves, as you speak of them as property. And as for the handful of people who managed to climb the social ladder in spite of their slavery, it is no surprise that in the 500 year history of this vile practice there would be a handful of golden boys. Nevermind the thousands who were force marched into an early grave for the Ottoman war machine.
You also speak of "ruling in justice". Funny thing to say just after speaking of how they conquered another people's country.


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Old Seer

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #114 on: March 25, 2018, 12:34:48 PM »
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?

I have chosen freedom in my real life (after life), instead of the dream which is called this life.
The freedome, drink, sex etc in this life continues at most for 60 years or something. And I traded this dream to eternal life of having all fun.. (including sex (with much beautiful girls) and drink (without headache and nausea etc.) that is it.

Quote
Do you condone the killing of apostates?
Our prophet Muhammad (P.U.H) never killed a person because he is not in his religion or he has another believe.
Lemme ask you here. ----Do those virgins have any say so in the matter, or are they brainless numskull sex maniacs just alive for your pleasings. Do Islamic women get  virgin guys, or is this a one way deal. If you had that many virgins in your house on earth the same clergyman who got you to believe would have you arrested for doing so. So, then you can go to heaven and do there what you can't do here. Where do those virgins come from and who are they. What you've got there is what is considered whores on earth but not in heaven. What this is--is-- you're a victim of another religion who sees people as just objects of use like any other religion. Ok, so you die and then go to heaven---- where did you get the new body from to have sex with all those ladies. How many kids will you have. Did you take into accounts how the ladies feel about this idea, and did they have parents.  It looks like you have some flaws in your plan that you'd best ask your clergyman about.  To a glutton heaven is an endless table of food. To a hunter heaven is an endless herd of buffalo. You can go to heaven and be a sex maniac, or whatever turns you on. When you get to heaven it would be wise to ask those young ladies about this deal.

What you have there is a classic ploy by clergy to gather followers for their own ego trip. Offer you ecstasy and you'll follow to anywhere. In the worlds idea of Christianity you'd be sitting on the steps of a marble building staring at God for all eternity eating grapes. :)
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #115 on: March 25, 2018, 06:45:26 PM »
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
Aw, be fair, Tank, some of those conspiracies come from what we call the East - Russia.

But there is truth there, some Western countries have, to their later regret, supported groups that later proved to simply be violent people. That those violent people hold onto their version of the Islamic faith is a blight on that Islamic faith.  If the Muslims wish to be rid of that stain they must deal with every killer and every supporter of those killers.

Since the two main groups involved in global violence, al Qaeda and Daesh, with their associates, plus the Taliban (who are seemingly promoting the world heroin market) are Sunni in origin what are you doing about this, Fatih? Simply denying they are not part of how you see your religion is not enough.

You were apparently born into, were educated by and have studied a very narrow field of hunan belief and experience. Before you can fully understand yourself you must understand how others see you and reconcile that in mutually understandable ways. All we have heard from you is, "You do not understand . . . You cannot accept . . ." etc. The Islamic and the midern Western mind (well, most of them) have grown far apart.

Like Tank I have no hatred in my heart towards you. I have no hatred of the peaceful and compassionate aspects of religion - believe what you wish. But you are not qualified, and have no right, to tell us what to beleive or how to think. You only preach from your narrow pulpit.
Spot on Dave.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Bluenose

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #116 on: March 25, 2018, 11:26:01 PM »
I feel pretty much the same about all religions, but especially the Abrahamic ones.  Their big problem as far as I am concerned is that they encourage magical thinking.  Once you have convinced someone that your magic man in the sky actually exists, then it does not take much more to convince them that this magic man wants his followers to do all sorts of (mostly) stupid things - let's all go to a special building at regular times, all stand around, sit, kneel or even prostrate ourselves in synchronicity, mumble the same words together, sing songs and listen to lengthy harangues about how evil we are and how magic man is the only source of good.  Once you've got that down it does not take a lot to convince at least some people to do truly evil things to these who do not subscribe to their particular brand of magic man.  Obviously these people follow the wrong magic man, or the one wearing the wrong clothes, or with the wrong version of the book of spells.  But it will be all OK because magic man will fix everything after we die, he'll even reward us for being so righteous.

In the world today many of the people convinced to perform vile acts upon their fellow humans beings are followers of the Muslim faith, but Islam does not have any sort of mortgage on this kind of thing.  There have been plenty of Christian activists who have done terrible things in the name of their favourite magic man.  Just think of those fools shooting doctors outside women's health clinics claiming to be doing their magic man's work.  Also, before anyone says that this is just a minority, sure it is, but then consider the prevalence of child molestation perpetrated by those supposedly called by their magic man to be the leaders and to demonstrate the bast way to live according to their magic book?  It's become a cliche that the magic man's closest servants do the worst things to little kiddies.  Consider also the prejudice, sometimes expressed overtly, against the followers of a different magic man or against people whose lifestyle does not accord with that prescribed in their book of spells.

So, I say "a pox on all their houses".  Religion is a cancer of the mind.  It is a good thing that it seems to be finally losing its deathly grip on many countries, mine included.  It concerns me, however, that many people living in poorly developed countries without access to a decent education are still in the grip of the magic man.  I see the attraction of a magic man's reward after death for those who have little hope in this life.  But this is a cruel con job, designed so that those who have much more in this life don't feel guilt about not doing something to help their fellow citizens of this little speck of dirt in the vastness of the cosmos.  Oh, and to ensure the vast masses don't rise up and overthrow their "betters".
“The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”

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+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2018, 11:49:28 PM »
Just thought I'd post this here:

Give no mercy to your fear.



Dave

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #118 on: March 26, 2018, 05:50:09 AM »
I think I mentioned I have the occasional times when I think we should just leave them to thrir own devices and dark sge mentslity. Oh for the day that we are not so dependant on their oil and gas!

They have mostly ruined all that was good in their arts and sciences, areas in which they once were eminent, through their interfactional fighting.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Tank

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Re: Islam and Atheism
« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2018, 06:33:46 AM »
I was waiting for 'Islam' to throw in the 'Islamic Science' card. So I did a bit of research. In the whole history of the Nobel prizes only one Muslim has won a prize in a science based subject. While over the same period 143 Jews have won a science prize. If you look at the current world population that's 1 prize per 1,800,000,000 Muslims and 1 prize per 140,000 Jews. That's a ratio of 128,000:1.

I do wonder how much of this disparity is simply down to the fact that is the dominant language in science.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.