Author Topic: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature  (Read 631 times)

Ecurb Noselrub

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Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« on: March 22, 2018, 02:08:55 AM »
Often I relax by sitting on my back porch and watching the beauty of nature, sometimes augmented by a glass of cognac, a cigar, or both.  Spring affords ample opportunity to simply behold the wonder of what the laws of nature have created, and this evening that beauty was supplemented by listening to some fitting music by Donovan or some other flower child.  The effect was one of pure transport, but the idea of struggle was never far from my consciousness. Every living thing, whether white oaks, finches, red bud blossoms or otherwise, had to struggle to give birth to life. As life evolved it was met with one existential crisis after another, yet “life found a way”.  That struggle is recapitulated in our own existence - we struggle in the womb, being born, growing up, becoming adults.  It is that struggle, which I consider a fundamental part of the laws of physics, that has resulted in humans having intelligence, a moral sense, and empathy.  Without that struggle we would not be who we are, nor could we have come to the point of reflecting on its necessity.  We face challenges from the moment of conception.  Nature is, indeed, as the poet said, “red in tooth and claw”, but that is precisely where we get the will to conquer obstacles, both individually and as a species. The violence we see in the cosmos becomes a major theme in the life of each creature, as life drags itself over one land mine after another.  “We Shall Overcome” could be the theme song of our personal and corporate existence.

We are here, writing, thinking, acting, reflecting, because of the Struggle. “In this life there is tribulation” - everyone of us could bear witness to that basic truth. But look what the Struggle has produced!! Without it, there would be no Da Vinci, no Newton, no Mozart, no Einstein, no Botticelli.  I invite you to expound on how the Struggle has produced beauty in your own life.

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 02:37:36 AM »
^ As you mentioned, Struggle is definitely an integral part of life, and from an evolutionary standpoint, has shaped life in all its forms.   

I count seeing a silver lining in a bad situation, or triumphing over forces that would destroy me, as personal victories. Overcoming adversity by yourself is beautiful, being offered a helping hand during trying times is beautiful, and there is struggle in both.

However, struggle does not always produce desirable outcomes. A lot of people live and die in complete misery, unable to change their condition. I think, from a human standpoint, if most of your basic needs are met (safety, food, water, etc.), struggle can be constructive. Otherwise it can lock you in a downward spiral with no way out. 

 ;D And since I think seeing humour in all situations a bit of a struggle, I'd like to leave this here:

Give no mercy to your fear.



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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 03:06:16 AM »
That was beautiful. 

So, I decide I'm going to go snow camping above Tahoe along the Pacific Crest Trail in Desolation wilderness, in the middle of winter.  Xmas day I get dropped off on the PCT at Echo Lake along highway 50 and proceeded north into the wilderness area.   I came out 5 days later along Fallen Leaf Lake.   There were certainly many struggles.  The cold was so severe, there were times could not even measure the temperature because the alcohol thermometer I had bottomed in the negative twenties.   The snow was so deep it made movement slow and obliterated the trail, had to triangulate my position incrementally as a new distant land mark would finally break free from the trees and enable a bearing.   It was a very beautiful place, but a very harsh one.     One night, while camping a on a tiny lake Margery, that had been so frozen it actually lifted itself up out of its basin, I noticed I had 2 sets of shadows on me.   I fully expected to see the moon and something as I looked up but to my amazement there was no moon in sight.   I traced the shadows back to the Milky Way and Venus... The air was so cold, devoid of moisture, that at my 9000 feet i had the milky way casting shadows on me...  It was the most spectacular sky i had ever seen.  You could almost reach out and touch the stars, they were so close.   It was one of the most incredible moments of my life.   
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 03:54:50 AM »
Often I relax by sitting on my back porch and watching the beauty of nature, sometimes augmented by a glass of cognac, a cigar, or both.  Spring affords ample opportunity to simply behold the wonder of what the laws of nature have created, and this evening that beauty was supplemented by listening to some fitting music by Donovan or some other flower child.  The effect was one of pure transport, but the idea of struggle was never far from my consciousness. Every living thing, whether white oaks, finches, red bud blossoms or otherwise, had to struggle to give birth to life. As life evolved it was met with one existential crisis after another, yet “life found a way”.  That struggle is recapitulated in our own existence - we struggle in the womb, being born, growing up, becoming adults.  It is that struggle, which I consider a fundamental part of the laws of physics, that has resulted in humans having intelligence, a moral sense, and empathy.  Without that struggle we would not be who we are, nor could we have come to the point of reflecting on its necessity.  We face challenges from the moment of conception.  Nature is, indeed, as the poet said, “red in tooth and claw”, but that is precisely where we get the will to conquer obstacles, both individually and as a species. The violence we see in the cosmos becomes a major theme in the life of each creature, as life drags itself over one land mine after another.  “We Shall Overcome” could be the theme song of our personal and corporate existence.

We are here, writing, thinking, acting, reflecting, because of the Struggle. “In this life there is tribulation” - everyone of us could bear witness to that basic truth. But look what the Struggle has produced!! Without it, there would be no Da Vinci, no Newton, no Mozart, no Einstein, no Botticelli.  I invite you to expound on how the Struggle has produced beauty in your own life.

Marxist... just kidding. Well, sort of.  :-\
 

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 04:47:54 AM »
Often I relax by sitting on my back porch and watching the beauty of nature, sometimes augmented by a glass of cognac, a cigar, or both.  Spring affords ample opportunity to simply behold the wonder of what the laws of nature have created, and this evening that beauty was supplemented by listening to some fitting music by Donovan or some other flower child.  The effect was one of pure transport, but the idea of struggle was never far from my consciousness. Every living thing, whether white oaks, finches, red bud blossoms or otherwise, had to struggle to give birth to life. As life evolved it was met with one existential crisis after another, yet “life found a way”.  That struggle is recapitulated in our own existence - we struggle in the womb, being born, growing up, becoming adults.  It is that struggle, which I consider a fundamental part of the laws of physics, that has resulted in humans having intelligence, a moral sense, and empathy.  Without that struggle we would not be who we are, nor could we have come to the point of reflecting on its necessity.  We face challenges from the moment of conception.  Nature is, indeed, as the poet said, “red in tooth and claw”, but that is precisely where we get the will to conquer obstacles, both individually and as a species. The violence we see in the cosmos becomes a major theme in the life of each creature, as life drags itself over one land mine after another.  “We Shall Overcome” could be the theme song of our personal and corporate existence.

We are here, writing, thinking, acting, reflecting, because of the Struggle. “In this life there is tribulation” - everyone of us could bear witness to that basic truth. But look what the Struggle has produced!! Without it, there would be no Da Vinci, no Newton, no Mozart, no Einstein, no Botticelli.  I invite you to expound on how the Struggle has produced beauty in your own life.

What you say resonates with me. I am thinking of Shostakovich and Prokofiev in Stalin's Russia.

In my own life I did manage to produce a few reasonably good paintings in Beirut on the many days when it was not safe to leave home. I even sold most of them.

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 05:00:10 AM »
Often I relax by sitting on my back porch and watching the beauty of nature, sometimes augmented by a glass of cognac, a cigar, or both.  Spring affords ample opportunity to simply behold the wonder of what the laws of nature have created, and this evening that beauty was supplemented by listening to some fitting music by Donovan or some other flower child.  The effect was one of pure transport, but the idea of struggle was never far from my consciousness. Every living thing, whether white oaks, finches, red bud blossoms or otherwise, had to struggle to give birth to life. As life evolved it was met with one existential crisis after another, yet “life found a way”.  That struggle is recapitulated in our own existence - we struggle in the womb, being born, growing up, becoming adults.  It is that struggle, which I consider a fundamental part of the laws of physics, that has resulted in humans having intelligence, a moral sense, and empathy.  Without that struggle we would not be who we are, nor could we have come to the point of reflecting on its necessity.  We face challenges from the moment of conception.  Nature is, indeed, as the poet said, “red in tooth and claw”, but that is precisely where we get the will to conquer obstacles, both individually and as a species. The violence we see in the cosmos becomes a major theme in the life of each creature, as life drags itself over one land mine after another.  “We Shall Overcome” could be the theme song of our personal and corporate existence.

We are here, writing, thinking, acting, reflecting, because of the Struggle. “In this life there is tribulation” - everyone of us could bear witness to that basic truth. But look what the Struggle has produced!! Without it, there would be no Da Vinci, no Newton, no Mozart, no Einstein, no Botticelli.  I invite you to expound on how the Struggle has produced beauty in your own life.

Hmmm...
Quote
augmented by a glass of cognac, a cigar, or both.

I'm sure a glass of cognac a cigar, or both, augments the beauty of nature the same way a Budlight, a bud, or both, augments the beauty of nature...somewhere else.

Same thing only different.  ;D

Bad Penny II

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 02:13:47 PM »
Struggle is foreplay
If it was easy all the riff raff would be doing it.
I want some measure of exclusivity.

It's why all those whining atheists are such a fail.
You can't make a human without much suffering.

Certainty disturbs me


Old Seer

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2018, 12:59:49 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2018, 01:10:18 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".

But what about all the shades of gray (not that Shades of Gray) between the black and white concepts of good and evil?

'Good' and 'Evil' are linked to morality, which is a human construct. Would you consider, say, a lion hunting and killing a gazelle evil? Both the lion and gazelle struggle to survive, one by killing and the other by outrunning the hunter, but to attribute 'good' or 'evil' to nature is a stretch because nature is essentially amoral.
Give no mercy to your fear.



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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2018, 10:37:58 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".

But what about all the shades of gray (not that Shades of Gray) between the black and white concepts of good and evil?

'Good' and 'Evil' are linked to morality, which is a human construct. Would you consider, say, a lion hunting and killing a gazelle evil? Both the lion and gazelle struggle to survive, one by killing and the other by outrunning the hunter, but to attribute 'good' or 'evil' to nature is a stretch because nature is essentially amoral.
Ouch. I should have keep my big mouth shut. My answer would be to complex and take to long. I've been contemplating on and answer but----Nada--it's to long . I went to my word processor to cut and paste when done but I end up scrubbing the works after a while. It gets into preaching kind of and not being that type I find it a tuffy to give an appropriate answer.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2018, 10:39:54 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".

But what about all the shades of gray (not that Shades of Gray) between the black and white concepts of good and evil?

'Good' and 'Evil' are linked to morality, which is a human construct. Would you consider, say, a lion hunting and killing a gazelle evil? Both the lion and gazelle struggle to survive, one by killing and the other by outrunning the hunter, but to attribute 'good' or 'evil' to nature is a stretch because nature is essentially amoral.
Ouch. I should have keep my big mouth shut. My answer would be to complex and take to long. I've been contemplating on and answer but----Nada--it's to long . I went to my word processor to cut and paste when done but I end up scrubbing the works after a while. It gets into preaching kind of and not being that type I find it a tuffy to give an appropriate answer.

:notsure: Okay...
Give no mercy to your fear.



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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2018, 12:08:37 AM »
This is a worthy thread....please keep it up.  Ecurb's post is almost elegant despite the cigar.

Or perhaps we can choose  the fatalistic position, in that our fates are subject to chance and not choice.   Silver's cute little video, I shall survive....or not,  is the fatalistic take.  I like the music though.

The pale blue dot is a wondrous place.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2018, 02:27:05 AM »
Yes, this is an interesting thread. :smilenod:

Or perhaps we can choose  the fatalistic position, in that our fates are subject to chance and not choice.

Probably a mesh of both chance and choice. :P

Do lucky people struggle more or less? I don't know.
Give no mercy to your fear.



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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2018, 02:54:35 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".

But what about all the shades of gray (not that Shades of Gray) between the black and white concepts of good and evil?

'Good' and 'Evil' are linked to morality, which is a human construct. Would you consider, say, a lion hunting and killing a gazelle evil? Both the lion and gazelle struggle to survive, one by killing and the other by outrunning the hunter, but to attribute 'good' or 'evil' to nature is a stretch because nature is essentially amoral.
Ouch. I should have keep my big mouth shut. My answer would be to complex and take to long. I've been contemplating on and answer but----Nada--it's to long . I went to my word processor to cut and paste when done but I end up scrubbing the works after a while. It gets into preaching kind of and not being that type I find it a tuffy to give an appropriate answer.

:notsure: Okay...
It's just that I have a different understanding of morals, Human, God. The universe is nature, but to link all that in an explanation takes quite a bit of doing. And it would go far off subject of the OP.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.

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Re: Struggle - an integral part of the laws of nature
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2018, 06:46:46 PM »
It's the universal concept of good and evil. Things normally have a good side and and a bad side. As the saying goes---no good deed goes unpunished. There can be no evil without good and no good without evil. These two concept are interdependent. The sun is a good deal or we freeze and have no food, but hang out on the beach and pay the price in sunburn. To get, one has to go through the evil of work. If you want an apple you have to walk (work) to go to the tree to pick it. To help a neighbor you have to pay a price--it can be gas, labor, or anything you have to give up to help someone. Go to the store for them and oooops--- car accident. Evil makes good possible and vice versa. Can't get away from it. One could look at it as "God".

But what about all the shades of gray (not that Shades of Gray) between the black and white concepts of good and evil?

'Good' and 'Evil' are linked to morality, which is a human construct. Would you consider, say, a lion hunting and killing a gazelle evil? Both the lion and gazelle struggle to survive, one by killing and the other by outrunning the hunter, but to attribute 'good' or 'evil' to nature is a stretch because nature is essentially amoral.
Ouch. I should have keep my big mouth shut. My answer would be to complex and take to long. I've been contemplating on and answer but----Nada--it's to long . I went to my word processor to cut and paste when done but I end up scrubbing the works after a while. It gets into preaching kind of and not being that type I find it a tuffy to give an appropriate answer.

:notsure: Okay...
It's just that I have a different understanding of morals, Human, God. The universe is nature, but to link all that in an explanation takes quite a bit of doing. And it would go far off subject of the OP.
I'' take one item as an example.
God, is the workings of nature, and that's what I understand to be the Biblical God rather then a superhuman. Now, this is not only just my insight it is also that of my contemporaries that I studied with and learned from. The God we understand is not the one or the same as the world has, or see's God as. We cannot find in the where there is any exact reference to a superhuman entity.
 Ok, that would seem strange to you wouldn't it. God is all the foreces that rue one's life, it's the same as---when one says, that's life. To us that the same as saying   "that's God".  So in our interpretation God need not be a intellectual being, it's merely life itself. So, now, are you having a problem with this so far.
 The biblical God is the forces of the material universe (as the laws of physics) and the forces of the bio strucures and well as the forces of the mind that act on a persons being.
We we say Human being we mean a person that is being Human. This now is where the psycho types take over and we enter into the world  of the mind, as in psychiatry. That means we discovered via our studies ( now, do you see how I have a problem with explaining all this--we're not coming from where anyone is in the world as it is) that the biblical God is a matter of psychiatry---everyone's, and that includes the Lion and Gazelle, because they also have a mind, and, there are dog and cat psychoanalysts, so what is the animal world also comes under the powers of a mind.

The Biblical God  then to us is a matter of what happening in the mind. Altho the book also deals with material forces the objective is to get "people" to understand them selves. And this is where Christianity comes into the picture. We discovered that Christianity isn't a religion, its a manner of "person". So if that's true and if a person wants a religion he/she would have to make a religion of them self.

A person is made up of two specific mental directions which is impossible ( we discover) for there to be any other directions accept a neutral state of mind. One side of a person the animal mind, and the other is the human mind. And, a person can only  have to presence of mind of only one of these at a time, not both at the same time. We found, that what ever one is mentally under at any given time has to be on accounts of one of these. One does for animal reasons, or Human reasons. IOW, one can only be in animal mode, or Human mode.
 It is the animal mode that give people the social problems that society encounters. IE, competition is an animal trait and is one cause of social problems. In the world presently all people are understood to be Human, but we found not so. One is only Human when one's presence of mind is in a human mode , and not Human when one is in the animal mode. So, one isn't human on a continuous bases.

Now then, we find the book to be grossly misinterpreted, and that's because when the western civilizations (Europeans) acquired the book they were a Druid like religion and attached their religion to the book. If one weighs this one can find that a Druid religion doesn't make much sense, right. So an Atheist would have the same regard for a Druid religion as well as the worlds present idea of Christianity. An this is why the book is considered mythical and ridiculous. But, our interpretation works quite different. If one looks, one can see that the book is dealing with the animal mind VS the Human mind concept. Christianity and Human are the same thing. What Chrisitanity is trying to do is to get you to understand and know you and how nature made you, as in what forces you are under to be a person of particular type. The Human and animal mind together (Good and evil mind) are God. But a Christian God/way is to put aside the animal mind toward one another and resort to Human only. Thus then the Christian God is what is only Human/humane, the biblical God is both together. That is why in the old testament a prophet writes that God does good and evil. He's referring to People, because God (in biblical terms resides in "People) and that is the concern of the book. The forces?God that is you , is the Human animal concept.
In the book of revelation this concept can be seen-- the worlds animal systems in conflict with itself, as it the animal mind that civilizations are under for it's operations.

The object is to make floks aware of them self so they can choose which they would rather be.  People have been accustomed to regarding themselves as Human under all circumstances. This creates a paradox in understanding and is a misnomer.

What we found is that someone way back in time were the world first psychiatrists, and there's been none like them since. They studied and became aware of their persons, and made the choice to be Human by separating their characteristics and choosing which they wanted to be. In biblical terms those people were --Adam. In time they gave up their one sidedness and returned to being like everyone else and as they were before.
The book uses metaphors for all these events and explanations making it seem mythical. But any myth attached was created by middle and dark age minds interpreting to maintain their superiority over the masses. 
 
The Biblical God is the Human and animal mind, and a proper Christian God is what is Human. These are the "forces" that all are under and what rules your life in the spiritual sense of course. So, God is Force. When it about people, it's a matter of mind.  :)





 


The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.