Author Topic: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?  (Read 1069 times)

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2018, 07:51:35 PM »
Seriously? All religions are faudulent.
Seconded.

Please see my reply just above.

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2018, 07:54:09 PM »
Seriously? All religions are faudulent.

I do not see the religions that preach the seeking of knowledge and wisdom as liars because they have no need to lie as they are using logic and reason and not faith.

That would include some Buddhist sects, Karaite Jews and Gnostic Christians.

You dis not answer the O.P. question.

Care to do so?

Regards
DL

All religions are fraudulant.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2018, 08:01:02 PM »
Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=wRyUWquFHcm4tQXV74XQBw&q=fraud+laws&oq=fraud+laws&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.1003.11584.0.15863.10.10.0.0.0.0.114.1040.3j7.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.1037...0i131k1.0.nCgTyqsYAOA

Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.

Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.

Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.

Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.

I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.

Do you?

Regards
DL

In the interest of discussion, but without much belief that it will be successful, I ask--

1. Which religions would you consider to be forthright and honest, Gnostic Christian Bishop?

2. Can you expand on what fraud you perceive in certain religions, and how a government might go about proving fraud on the part of any particular religion?

I named Buddhism, Karaite Jews and Gnostic Christians a couple of posts up with a bit more of an explanation.

The fraud I see in certain religions would look much like what is spoken of in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668D_MeV1nY

All clergy who promise salvation, grace etc. from their God for the continuing support from the adherent is fraud as it is lying for the victims cash.

The law has moved against some faith healers etc. and I think the law should enforce the fraud laws against all the religions that lie to their victims.

Regards
DL


Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2018, 08:11:20 PM »
Is this "fraud" of the monetary, and thus illegal, type or the deceiving, more immoral? The first requires action in the criminal courts if it promises 'services or goods" in return that cannot be delivered. Material hoods or sergices anywsy, the law has this huge hole in it regarding "spiritual" serviices - "Your soul will be saved by your generosity!" that are sctually impossible to promise.

But you cannot really legislate on belief unless it includes acts that are obviously against the law. Non-religious charities have been caned for their emotional blackmail and browbeating attempts to get money out of people, some of the so-called churches seem to exist solely for that purpose. But, if people are stupid enough . . .

But, perhaps we should protect the stupid. I am an advocate for all churches being licenced and registered as charities and thus having to obey the regulations. Not exactly loop-hole free even then but better than the free hand they have now.

The deception and lies are all that can be proven and yes it is immoral but the law may not care if something is immoral or not because they cannot touch it if there is no law being broken. Not all immoral actions are illegal.

I think that the indoctrination of children into a religion is immoral but it is not illegal.

I do not agree with your tax views and would not give religions any because the shortfall they create has to be shored up by the general tax on all and that would include non-believers who would likely not like to see their money in effect, supporting religions.
 
Many believers are not stupid. Way too many have been indoctrinated from birth and that is the conditioning/brainwashing that allows then to somehow think that their demonstrably immoral Gods are somehow good.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2018, 08:29:05 PM »
I think they should, but that just isn't practical. In most countries of the western world, freedom of religion (and from religion) is just one of those rights you can't mess with. Big no no.

If organised religion is like a disease then I think people should be immunised. People should be taught critical thinking like they receive vaccines. I truly believe that better schooling, with some more emphasis on critical thinking and metathinking (thinking about thinking) goes a long way in helping people realise when they're being conned, not only in religion but in any pseudoscience with snake oil-peddling fraudsters.

Well said.

I put a bit just above on how even the non-believers do not have freedom from religion as they have to pay the tax shortfall religious tax breaks create.

As to schooling, I recommend comparative religion courses as that would show kids the oddities of all religions and likely end literal reading of myths and curb the numbers of horrible right wing loonies.

Regards
DL



Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2018, 08:33:07 PM »
Government can regulate financial fraud and criminal acts by religion.  If you are talking about regulating people’s beliefs, do you really want to go there? Who decides what beliefs or doctrines are fraudulent?  That aspect of it seems like a violation of human rights, much like preventing freedom of speech or the press.  I hope people think this through before having a knee-jerk reaction.

We cannot legislate beliefs, but we can legislate the preaching of some doctrines that go against the law of the land, homophobia and misogyny being two areas of my concern.

What a judge can judge is whether lies are being used in the con to separate the gullible believers from their cash.

Regards
DL

MadBomr101

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 03:33:46 AM »
Seriously? All religions are faudulent.

I do not see the religions that preach the seeking of knowledge and wisdom as liars because they have no need to lie as they are using logic and reason and not faith.

That would include some Buddhist sects, Karaite Jews and Gnostic Christians.

You dis not answer the O.P. question.

Care to do so?

Regards
DL

Yes, he did and correctly. You simply choose not to accept it. All religions ARE fraudulent. The seeking of knowledge doesn't require a religious or spiritual motive. In fact, why would one even wish to confuse their search for knowledge by coming at it from a needlessly religious angle?   
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Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 04:43:29 PM »
Seriously? All religions are faudulent.

I do not see the religions that preach the seeking of knowledge and wisdom as liars because they have no need to lie as they are using logic and reason and not faith.

That would include some Buddhist sects, Karaite Jews and Gnostic Christians.

You dis not answer the O.P. question.

Care to do so?

Regards
DL

Yes, he did and correctly. You simply choose not to accept it. All religions ARE fraudulent. The seeking of knowledge doesn't require a religious or spiritual motive. In fact, why would one even wish to confuse their search for knowledge by coming at it from a needlessly religious angle?   

No he did not. If you see it, show it, or let others speak for themselves.

If you think all religions are frauds, when they are not lying about anything, then you are as big of a fool as a fundamental literalist fool.

Just because you do not see the good side of religions, does not mean it does not exist. I am not talking of a God here. Just of local churches who can be quite useful to a community, even though the mainstream religions have reduced that usefulness thanks to their lies.
i
Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2018, 04:45:40 PM »
Religions are fraudulent if for no other reason that they wilful misrepresent reality.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

MadBomr101

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 09:21:36 PM »
No he did not. If you see it, show it, or let others speak for themselves.

He did speak for himself, I agreed. You did not. See how that works?

If you think all religions are frauds, when they are not lying about anything, then you are as big of a fool as a fundamental literalist fool.

Your name suggets you lean toward Gnosticism. Gnostics may reject the standard Xianity most Xians practice but it's still based on the same nonsense: the teachings of a supernatural deity that took human form, their chosen holy books of flawless wisdom, the promise of salvation in a heavenly paradise, it's all there, it's just been revised to suit their own interpretation. This includes salvation through "divine knowledge" rather than through faith. Gnostics are just as deluded as all other sects of Xianity, they're just a bit more smug about it because they're under the misconception that they possess some heightened enlightenment of god that the rest of us, even other Xians, do not.

They may as well claim a heightened enlightenment of Humpty Dumpty since god exists on the same level.
 
Just because you do not see the good side of religions, does not mean it does not exist.

Whatever good a religion might do is offset by their underlying motive to push their faith on whomever they interact with. A local church up the street from me recently put on a fair. I went because they had some great rides but they also had a tent where you could sit with some congregants and discuss membership in the church. Religion never does anything without turning it into a form of recruitment. This is understandable from a marketing standpoint and religion is, after all, a business. It just refuses to acknowledge this, preferring to package itself as some deep, meaningful spirituality and the only true path to eternal life and salvation. A pair of religious claims that don't exist in reality.

They gotta sell their lies somehow and a wholesome night of family fun is as good a tactic as any.

I am not talking of a God here. Just of local churches who can be quite useful to a community, even though the mainstream religions have reduced that usefulness thanks to their lies.

Pretty much what I said above. So there is some agreement here. The point at which we diverge on this is that I also reject your religion for many of the same lies, false promises, and exaggerated claims made by the sects of Xianity thet you reject. You just can't see them in the religion you've chosen to practice. This is a common issue with practitioners of any religion; they exempt themselves from the scrutiny they apply to others.
- Bomr
I'm waiting for the movie of my life to be made.  It should cost about $7.23 and that includes the budget for special effects.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2018, 01:28:50 PM »
Religions are fraudulent if for no other reason that they wilful misrepresent reality.

Most, I agree. Not all.
I exempt the knowledge and wisdom seekers as reality is what they go by.
Those tend not to have a supernatural belief.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2018, 01:34:21 PM »
No he did not. If you see it, show it, or let others speak for themselves.

He did speak for himself, I agreed. You did not. See how that works?

If you think all religions are frauds, when they are not lying about anything, then you are as big of a fool as a fundamental literalist fool.

Your name suggets you lean toward Gnosticism. Gnostics may reject the standard Xianity most Xians practice but it's still based on the same nonsense: the teachings of a supernatural deity that took human form, their chosen holy books of flawless wisdom, the promise of salvation in a heavenly paradise, it's all there, it's just been revised to suit their own interpretation. This includes salvation through "divine knowledge" rather than through faith. Gnostics are just as deluded as all other sects of Xianity, they're just a bit more smug about it because they're under the misconception that they possess some heightened enlightenment of god that the rest of us, even other Xians, do not.

They may as well claim a heightened enlightenment of Humpty Dumpty since god exists on the same level.
 
Just because you do not see the good side of religions, does not mean it does not exist.

Whatever good a religion might do is offset by their underlying motive to push their faith on whomever they interact with. A local church up the street from me recently put on a fair. I went because they had some great rides but they also had a tent where you could sit with some congregants and discuss membership in the church. Religion never does anything without turning it into a form of recruitment. This is understandable from a marketing standpoint and religion is, after all, a business. It just refuses to acknowledge this, preferring to package itself as some deep, meaningful spirituality and the only true path to eternal life and salvation. A pair of religious claims that don't exist in reality.

They gotta sell their lies somehow and a wholesome night of family fun is as good a tactic as any.

I am not talking of a God here. Just of local churches who can be quite useful to a community, even though the mainstream religions have reduced that usefulness thanks to their lies.

Pretty much what I said above. So there is some agreement here. The point at which we diverge on this is that I also reject your religion for many of the same lies, false promises, and exaggerated claims made by the sects of Xianity thet you reject. You just can't see them in the religion you've chosen to practice. This is a common issue with practitioners of any religion; they exempt themselves from the scrutiny they apply to others.

You put me and Gnostic Christianity into the supernatural believing pack.

There is no supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christianity.

If you will ignore what a Gnostic Christian says to maintain your delusion of what we believe, there is not much point of discussing anything with you, as you think you know more about my religion than I do. Pure delusion on your part.

Ask, don't tell, or go away.

Regards
DL


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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2018, 02:10:34 PM »
Religions are fraudulent if for no other reason that they wilful misrepresent reality.

Most, I agree. Not all.
I exempt the knowledge and wisdom seekers as reality is what they go by.
Those tend not to have a supernatural belief.

Regards
DL
Suggest one that does not.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Old Seer

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2018, 03:36:07 PM »
Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=wRyUWquFHcm4tQXV74XQBw&q=fraud+laws&oq=fraud+laws&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.1003.11584.0.15863.10.10.0.0.0.0.114.1040.3j7.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.1037...0i131k1.0.nCgTyqsYAOA

Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.

Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.

Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.

Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.

I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.

Do you?

Regards
DL

In the interest of discussion, but without much belief that it will be successful, I ask--

1. Which religions would you consider to be forthright and honest, Gnostic Christian Bishop?

2. Can you expand on what fraud you perceive in certain religions, and how a government might go about proving fraud on the part of any particular religion?
Well, what we would have is fraudsters (governments) prosecuting fraudsters. Maybe they would eliminate each other. :-)
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MadBomr101

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 04:27:24 AM »

You put me and Gnostic Christianity into the supernatural believing pack.

There is no supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christianity.

If you will ignore what a Gnostic Christian says to maintain your delusion of what we believe, there is not much point of discussing anything with you, as you think you know more about my religion than I do. Pure delusion on your part.

Ask, don't tell, or go away.

I KNEW you were going to claim I didn't understand your faith. So you practice a version of Gnosticism that you feel is not adequately explained by the standard version we're all familiar with. By all means, educate us with what you believe and how it differs from the generally accepted Gnosticism that proclaims salvation through a higher understanding of god over simple faith and also how your Gnostic Xianity is free of all supernatural beliefs even though it still proclaims the existence of a god, and souls, and spirit beings. 

We're on pins and needles to hear what your interpretation is.

Please enlighten us.
- Bomr
I'm waiting for the movie of my life to be made.  It should cost about $7.23 and that includes the budget for special effects.