Author Topic: Hello! New here  (Read 1257 times)

LightLim

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2018, 04:38:06 AM »
Hi all,

I'm excited to chat about Atheist living, the Universe, spirituality, and whatnot. I'd like to know what your understanding of spirituality is. Discuss!

P.S. Rift Zone is my friend. I'm here on his referral. Hey, RZ!

Hello and Welcome LightLim,

I practice a lot of yoga, and spirituality is one of those things that is brought up frequently is some classes...as an atheist my idea of spirituality obviously differs rather significantly from the other attendees of my classes, however. It rarely bothers me when it is mentioned as it is such a vague and abstract term, in fact when most folks try to define spirituality they end up using other equally vague and abstract words.

Here's an example, and I bolded the words or phrases that are equally vague.

spiritual

adjective
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.
Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.
Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

Basically spirituality means nothing. It one of those generic feel good words, sort of like the way the political leaders in the US send "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims of mass shootings.

Anyway that's my thought on it.
 
Once again, welcome:)

Haha, spiritual can be a loaded word, can't it?

What do you make of the compulsion to add context to our identity?

 Identity = Conscious.

I think it mirrors the compulsion to add a god or gods to our lives so as to fill the voids of the unexplained.

The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6037
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2018, 08:50:04 AM »
Quote
The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Blimey, LL, you seem to have a bit of a flair for using words in ways that make me think! How do you define "identity" in the way that you use it? Identity can be "extracted" from facial features, finger and other prints, DNA analysis etc etc. That is all physical identity that enables others to recognise us and not available to "construction" by choice.

Our behaviour and personality can also be indentifying features (if they are on record in some form), but we have limited control over these I think. Our genes will form the basis, even if our ability to "construct" some factors by self-training, by deliberate and conscious habit forming. But I think even those will be constrained by our genetic propensities. The born psychopath, effectively pre-programmed not to consider the suffering of others,  is unlikely to consciously convert to a lasting "nice guy" personality! Though that person may be a fully functioning human in every other way, even a genius.

I cannot buy the idea that our true indentities are constructs. We do construct a "persona*", a mask that we show the world, something we wish to world to measure us by or for defence, but being a construct - part conscious, part unconcious, - it is inevitably fragile.

The idea of humans "being in touch" or "resonating" with the natural world appears regularly. I have an affection for nature and recognise that I have a common link with it simply because of DNA. But, intellectually, we humans are vastly different from even our closest relations.

* "persona" were the masks used by ancient Greek actors to indicate the emotional state of the character they are playing. These are still iconic in theatres and publications as the laughing and sad masks used as decoration.

Later: a penny has dropped, or a bulb has shed light - I was being narrow minded above and did not consider the concept of, "I identify nyself as (a transvestite, a woman, asexual, an artist etc etc etc)". Yes, a conscious decision on the surface, something that we can aquire the physical, concrete indicators of but is such still not based on one's propensities?  No matter how much I try to draw or paint I do not seem to have that inner something that truly identifies the artists amongst us. I can express myself on paper, but I am not an artist in my mind.

No, I still come down to our genetic inheritance, maybe superficially, even long term, modified by enviroment, as the root of "identity".
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:35:30 AM by Dave »
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Papasito Bruno

  • Deranged Psychopathic Twinkle Toes
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5197
  • Gender: Male
  • Save water. Shower together!
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2018, 01:05:34 PM »
Hi all,

I'm excited to chat about Atheist living, the Universe, spirituality, and whatnot. I'd like to know what your understanding of spirituality is. Discuss!

P.S. Rift Zone is my friend. I'm here on his referral. Hey, RZ!

Hello and Welcome LightLim,

I practice a lot of yoga, and spirituality is one of those things that is brought up frequently is some classes...as an atheist my idea of spirituality obviously differs rather significantly from the other attendees of my classes, however. It rarely bothers me when it is mentioned as it is such a vague and abstract term, in fact when most folks try to define spirituality they end up using other equally vague and abstract words.

Here's an example, and I bolded the words or phrases that are equally vague.

spiritual

adjective
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.
Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.
Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

Basically spirituality means nothing. It one of those generic feel good words, sort of like the way the political leaders in the US send "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims of mass shootings.

Anyway that's my thought on it.
 
Once again, welcome:)

Haha, spiritual can be a loaded word, can't it?

What do you make of the compulsion to add context to our identity?

 Identity = Conscious.

I think it mirrors the compulsion to add a god or gods to our lives so as to fill the voids of the unexplained.

The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious?
No, nor is it compulsionary.

Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?
No I would not agree. I certainly don't. I've accepted nature and my place in the universe. If there are people who ask themselves these questions it is most likely because it fits the religious narrative that a god has placed them here on earth for a reason.

This feels like we are walking down a worn, and recognizable path that evangelicals like to take when trying to dissuade those who don't accept their religious beliefs.
I've been down this path before...our consciousness and self-realization is not akin to a person who thinks being aware and self-identifying means that a god placed them in a specific spot in the universe or that there is some reason for their life.

I'm truly sorry, but I can't keep explaining this simple thing to you over and over again hoping that you'll finally understand something so simple and obvious.
I'm not the "Dumb-Ass Whisperer".

I really, really hate anti-semantics.

LightLim

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2018, 03:50:49 AM »
Quote
The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Blimey, LL, you seem to have a bit of a flair for using words in ways that make me think! How do you define "identity" in the way that you use it? Identity can be "extracted" from facial features, finger and other prints, DNA analysis etc etc. That is all physical identity that enables others to recognise us and not available to "construction" by choice.

Our behaviour and personality can also be indentifying features (if they are on record in some form), but we have limited control over these I think. Our genes will form the basis, even if our ability to "construct" some factors by self-training, by deliberate and conscious habit forming. But I think even those will be constrained by our genetic propensities. The born psychopath, effectively pre-programmed not to consider the suffering of others,  is unlikely to consciously convert to a lasting "nice guy" personality! Though that person may be a fully functioning human in every other way, even a genius.

I cannot buy the idea that our true indentities are constructs. We do construct a "persona*", a mask that we show the world, something we wish to world to measure us by or for defence, but being a construct - part conscious, part unconcious, - it is inevitably fragile.

The idea of humans "being in touch" or "resonating" with the natural world appears regularly. I have an affection for nature and recognise that I have a common link with it simply because of DNA. But, intellectually, we humans are vastly different from even our closest relations.

* "persona" were the masks used by ancient Greek actors to indicate the emotional state of the character they are playing. These are still iconic in theatres and publications as the laughing and sad masks used as decoration.

Later: a penny has dropped, or a bulb has shed light - I was being narrow minded above and did not consider the concept of, "I identify nyself as (a transvestite, a woman, asexual, an artist etc etc etc)". Yes, a conscious decision on the surface, something that we can aquire the physical, concrete indicators of but is such still not based on one's propensities?  No matter how much I try to draw or paint I do not seem to have that inner something that truly identifies the artists amongst us. I can express myself on paper, but I am not an artist in my mind.

No, I still come down to our genetic inheritance, maybe superficially, even long term, modified by enviroment, as the root of "identity".

Dave, nice to know I've got you thinking! I appreciate your input. What makes humans construct a persona? Doesn't the persona help us to understand ourselves and others better? If we understand ourselves better, then we could understand our place in the Universe better.

LightLim

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2018, 03:55:39 AM »
Hi all,

I'm excited to chat about Atheist living, the Universe, spirituality, and whatnot. I'd like to know what your understanding of spirituality is. Discuss!

P.S. Rift Zone is my friend. I'm here on his referral. Hey, RZ!

Hello and Welcome LightLim,

I practice a lot of yoga, and spirituality is one of those things that is brought up frequently is some classes...as an atheist my idea of spirituality obviously differs rather significantly from the other attendees of my classes, however. It rarely bothers me when it is mentioned as it is such a vague and abstract term, in fact when most folks try to define spirituality they end up using other equally vague and abstract words.

Here's an example, and I bolded the words or phrases that are equally vague.

spiritual

adjective
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.
Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.
Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

Basically spirituality means nothing. It one of those generic feel good words, sort of like the way the political leaders in the US send "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims of mass shootings.

Anyway that's my thought on it.
 
Once again, welcome:)

Haha, spiritual can be a loaded word, can't it?

What do you make of the compulsion to add context to our identity?

 Identity = Conscious.

I think it mirrors the compulsion to add a god or gods to our lives so as to fill the voids of the unexplained.

The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious?
No, nor is it compulsionary.

Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?
No I would not agree. I certainly don't. I've accepted nature and my place in the universe. If there are people who ask themselves these questions it is most likely because it fits the religious narrative that a god has placed them here on earth for a reason.

This feels like we are walking down a worn, and recognizable path that evangelicals like to take when trying to dissuade those who don't accept their religious beliefs.
I've been down this path before...our consciousness and self-realization is not akin to a person who thinks being aware and self-identifying means that a god placed them in a specific spot in the universe or that there is some reason for their life.

Hm, PB, what do you understand about nature and your place in the universe? If you understand this, then you're in tune with the spiritual part of you. Spiritual to mean that you are an expression of the universe.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6037
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2018, 07:52:49 AM »
Quote
What makes humans construct a persona?
Well, LL, I am going to say that it is srill down to our genes. It is "constructed", consciously, unconsviously or in a combination of the two, largely as a defence mechanism I think. Two people may react very differently to similar life experience and "construct" different coping strategies - uptight, formal, and organised or laid-back, casual and flexible say. But are these conscious strategies or due to basic factirs - like genes? "Construct" the wrong persona and it will never be fully stable, like the shell it is it can shatter under stress.

"Just be yourself," is a common exhortation - "yourself" can only be that basic, genetic, you.

Quote
Doesn't the persona help us to understand ourselves and others better?
Nope, the persona is whst you show the world, the image you project to elecit the attitude towards you that you desire. It might be closed and defensive or open and outgoing. Formal or cadual as above. It is never the "real you". "The clown who cries" is possibly a person projecting a public persona that is at emotional dissonance with their real self. They may even have taken up clowning to try to "cure" themselves of, or simply hide, a depressed personality.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Papasito Bruno

  • Deranged Psychopathic Twinkle Toes
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5197
  • Gender: Male
  • Save water. Shower together!
Re: Hello! New here
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2018, 07:25:25 PM »
Hi all,

I'm excited to chat about Atheist living, the Universe, spirituality, and whatnot. I'd like to know what your understanding of spirituality is. Discuss!

P.S. Rift Zone is my friend. I'm here on his referral. Hey, RZ!

Hello and Welcome LightLim,

I practice a lot of yoga, and spirituality is one of those things that is brought up frequently is some classes...as an atheist my idea of spirituality obviously differs rather significantly from the other attendees of my classes, however. It rarely bothers me when it is mentioned as it is such a vague and abstract term, in fact when most folks try to define spirituality they end up using other equally vague and abstract words.

Here's an example, and I bolded the words or phrases that are equally vague.

spiritual

adjective
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.
Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.
Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

Basically spirituality means nothing. It one of those generic feel good words, sort of like the way the political leaders in the US send "Thoughts and Prayers" to the victims of mass shootings.

Anyway that's my thought on it.
 
Once again, welcome:)

Haha, spiritual can be a loaded word, can't it?

What do you make of the compulsion to add context to our identity?

 Identity = Conscious.

I think it mirrors the compulsion to add a god or gods to our lives so as to fill the voids of the unexplained.

The construction of a person's identity is conscious. Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious? Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?

Is the compulsion to answer questions like "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of life?" conscious?
No, nor is it compulsionary.

Would you agree that every person has this experience, conscious or not?
No I would not agree. I certainly don't. I've accepted nature and my place in the universe. If there are people who ask themselves these questions it is most likely because it fits the religious narrative that a god has placed them here on earth for a reason.

This feels like we are walking down a worn, and recognizable path that evangelicals like to take when trying to dissuade those who don't accept their religious beliefs.
I've been down this path before...our consciousness and self-realization is not akin to a person who thinks being aware and self-identifying means that a god placed them in a specific spot in the universe or that there is some reason for their life.

Hm, PB, what do you understand about nature and your place in the universe? If you understand this, then you're in tune with the spiritual part of you. Spiritual to mean that you are an expression of the universe.

Nature to mean or represent the physical reality of the universe, and my place in it is the same as granule of sand on some other world, or a microbe here on earth.
I don't see that as requiring any "tuning" to accept.
Again I reject the use of the word spiritual or the phrase "Expression of the universe".
I simply a very small, miniscule part of it.
I'm truly sorry, but I can't keep explaining this simple thing to you over and over again hoping that you'll finally understand something so simple and obvious.
I'm not the "Dumb-Ass Whisperer".

I really, really hate anti-semantics.