Author Topic: virtuous  (Read 2027 times)

xSilverPhinx

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2017, 08:15:40 PM »
I don't think I can trust them around children even if they have pledged never to molest one. That's difficult for me to do, even though a pedophile who does molest children and one who does not are in two different groups altogether.

However, like some of the above posters I applaud them for seeking whatever it is they are seeking from that group: support, community, etc. Even though they're wired to feel sexually attracted to children, they're still human.

I agree that they should not be put in a position of temptation. And I think that people who are honest about their attractions in this way would not want to be put in that position anyway. That would be part of the support offered, to deliberately train and seek employment in jobs where you specifically don't come into contact with children.

You have a point there.
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Papasito Bruno

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 06:13:30 PM »
I've read about this or similar groups before and I think this is nothing but a ploy in order to get them to seem more acceptable in society...and I find nothing virtuous about someone wanting to assault and rape a child or infant.

What's next:

"Righteous Wifebeaters"? ("Yeah you know, sometimes I just want to smack that fucking lazy bitch in the face, but you know I don't because I'm fucking righteous person")

"Charitable Theives" (Yeah, I really want to break into the old ladies house down the street, and steal all her shit, but you know I don't because I'm fucking charitable")

"Conscientus Rapists" (Yeah, I'd love nothing more than to knock the shit out of the girl I see jogging each Saturday in the park and fucking rape her ass, especially since she's spurned my advances on her, but you know I don't cuz' I'm Consceintus)

I was walking into the bank years ago and I saw a bank envelope on the ground just near the door, and I pick it up and it's filled with cash, so I take it inside the bank and give it to a teller.
Just then this young couple come in the door, they had been in just before me taking out all of the cash in their savings in order to buy a used car...it was their envelope I found on the ground.
When the teller returned it to them and pointed me out they came over and thanked me, shook my hand and even gave me a hug...with tears in their eyes as they thanked me.
They wanted to give me some of the money, as an award, and I refused, and believe me I could have used a few extra bucks at the time, and I certainly could have used the 3-4 thousands of dollars that was in the envelope.

I didn't not keep it because I'm some "Creditable, praiseworthy, meritorious, scrupulous, Low-Life". I didn't keep it because to do so would be wrong.

Should a wife be happy when her husband say's to her. "Yeah you should just be happy that I don't fucking kick the shit out of you like your girlfriends husband does, or if he say's, 'Yeah, you don't know how many times I wanted to sexually assault the babies while you were at work,..should consider yourself fucking lucky I fucking didn't".

"Virtuous fucking pedophiles"?

I don't think so.
I'm truly sorry, but I can't keep explaining this simple thing to you over and over again hoping that you'll finally understand something so simple and obvious.
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Sherman Firefly

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2017, 06:48:40 PM »
"and I find nothing virtuous about someone wanting to assault and rape a child or infant."

I agree. However that's not the point here. These people apparently are prepared to admit their sexual orientation and at the same time recognise they can never act on it because the object of their desire could never give consent. In fact they are the very antithesis of your assertion in that they do not want to assault or rape a child or infant. These people are worthy of our support.
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Sherman Firefly

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2017, 06:58:50 PM »
...

"Righteous Wifebeaters"? ("Yeah you know, sometimes I just want to smack that fucking lazy bitch in the face, but you know I don't because I'm fucking righteous person")

"Charitable Theives" (Yeah, I really want to break into the old ladies house down the street, and steal all her shit, but you know I don't because I'm fucking charitable")

"Conscientus Rapists" (Yeah, I'd love nothing more than to knock the shit out of the girl I see jogging each Saturday in the park and fucking rape her ass, especially since she's spurned my advances on her, but you know I don't cuz' I'm Consceintus)
....

Your analogy is flawed. These would be groups of people who have already committed the act that bears their name, Wifebeater, Thief and rapist. Surly it would be better if these people had not committed these crimes? Using this logic you would have to be a 'Conscientious child abuser'. The protagonist has already committed the crime. They can't clean that off by calling themselves conscientious.

The point here whether you like the term or not. Is that paedophiles are not automatically child molesters. The two terms are not interchangeable. The media uses the terms as synonyms but they are not. Once the issue of progression is appreciated there is a window of opportunity (currently ignored) to potentially stop a paedophile from progressing to child abuser. It is better to stop a paedophile before the abuse than after as you remove the victim from the equation.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
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Dave

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2017, 07:14:51 PM »
"and I find nothing virtuous about someone wanting to assault and rape a child or infant."

I agree. However that's not the point here. These people apparently are prepared to admit their sexual orientation and at the same time recognise they can never act on it because the object of their desire could never give consent. In fact they are the very antithesis of your assertion in that they do not want to assault or rape a child or infant. These people are worthy of our support.

I gave to agree with Tank here. To be able to admit a problem and be willing to "fight" yourself to avoid giving in to it takes strength and courage. It is not quite the same as AA, though alcoholism can ruin the lives of not just the sufferers, but it requires the same strength of character. More strength of character than some sanctimonious religious types, business bosses and politicians.
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Dave

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 08:46:16 PM »
I am begining to wonder if there is a label thing here. We ascribe certain values, qualities to words and if they are used in contexts that bother us we get itchy about the whole thing.

Is "virtuous" such a word here? "Having high moral standards." One does not think if a paedophile having such a quality.  If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

I admit that I was not happy with the use of "virtuous" but tried to see beyond that label, to what these people were trying to achieve. Perhaps  somerhing like "reformed" might be better? By chosing "virtuous" there are, perhaps, trying to boost their image a little too far.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 09:28:07 PM »
...If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

But can sexual preference be viewed as a mental illness if it is not socially acceptable? :notsure: For instance, homosexuality was seen as such in the not too distant past, and some in the mental health profession still consider it to be.

(I am not equating homosexual relations between two consenting adults with pedophilia, just using it as an example to try and illustrate my point.)

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Sandra Craft

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 12:25:57 AM »
I am begining to wonder if there is a label thing here. We ascribe certain values, qualities to words and if they are used in contexts that bother us we get itchy about the whole thing.

Is "virtuous" such a word here? "Having high moral standards." One does not think if a paedophile having such a quality.  If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

I admit that I was not happy with the use of "virtuous" but tried to see beyond that label, to what these people were trying to achieve. Perhaps  somerhing like "reformed" might be better? By chosing "virtuous" there are, perhaps, trying to boost their image a little too far.

I think virtuous fits, esp. if they've never acted on their urges.  I think discipline, self-control and giving the welfare of others top priority over ones own desires are definitely virtues.  Even if they once acted on their urges but forced themselves to stop, I think "virtuous" fits just as well as "reformed".  If they also make it a point to help children victimized by actual child molesters (while staying far away from children themselves), even better.
Sandy

  
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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2017, 12:51:44 AM »
...If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

But can sexual preference be viewed as a mental illness if it is not socially acceptable? :notsure: For instance, homosexuality was seen as such in the not too distant past, and some in the mental health profession still consider it to be.

(I am not equating homosexual relations between two consenting adults with pedophilia, just using it as an example to try and illustrate my point.)

According to the APA: "Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities."

I'm not sure a sexual orientation can be considered a mental illness just because it's socially unacceptable at a certain time (esp. if it has been socially acceptable at other times), but on the other hand I'm not sure it can't be either.  Sexual attraction to children, even very young children, doesn't seem that unusual among primates as a whole (there've been plenty of sexual interactions observed between very young and adult bonobos, for instance). 

Not saying we humans should therefore throw over all our social and legal restrictions against it -- I'd actually like to see more restrictions and harsher penalties -- just that I think considering it a mental illness is on shaky ground.  Unusual maybe (hopefully), but not truly outside natural human/primate behavior.  I think there has to be more than just attraction to children to qualify pedophilia as a mental illness.

Sandy

  
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2017, 01:10:05 AM »
...If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

But can sexual preference be viewed as a mental illness if it is not socially acceptable? :notsure: For instance, homosexuality was seen as such in the not too distant past, and some in the mental health profession still consider it to be.

(I am not equating homosexual relations between two consenting adults with pedophilia, just using it as an example to try and illustrate my point.)

According to the APA: "Mental illnesses are health conditions involving changes in thinking, emotion or behavior (or a combination of these). Mental illnesses are associated with distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities."

I'm not sure a sexual orientation can be considered a mental illness just because it's socially unacceptable at a certain time (esp. if it has been socially acceptable at other times), but on the other hand I'm not sure it can't be either.  Sexual attraction to children, even very young children, doesn't seem that unusual among primates as a whole (there've been plenty of sexual interactions observed between very young and adult bonobos, for instance). 

Not saying we humans should therefore throw over all our social and legal restrictions against it -- I'd actually like to see more restrictions and harsher penalties -- just that I think considering it a mental illness is on shaky ground.  Unusual maybe (hopefully), but not truly outside natural human/primate behavior.  I think there has to be more than just attraction to children to qualify pedophilia as a mental illness.

That's a good answer, Books!  :thumbsup:
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Sherman Firefly

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2017, 06:36:21 AM »
Paedophilia is not a mental illness. It's a naturally occurring sexual behaviour. It is an atypical behaviour. If acted upon it is by definition abusive and the person becomes a child-abuser/criminal.

If we take this view of the issue we give ourselves breathing room to deal with it rationally. If the term paedophile and child abuser are treated as synonymous, which they are not, then mob rule and lynchings are the order of the day.

To prevent child abuse we need to address the issue of why it happens as dispassionately and rationally as possible. That's not an easy ask. Particularly for those who have been on the receiving end of such abuse. Bur IMO the focus must be on prevention. By the time the abuse has happened it's too late for the victim.

No person chooses their fundamental sexual orientation nor preferences. The crime is in the act, not the thought.

Just my $0.02
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Dave

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2017, 06:40:44 AM »
I am begining to wonder if there is a label thing here. We ascribe certain values, qualities to words and if they are used in contexts that bother us we get itchy about the whole thing.

Is "virtuous" such a word here? "Having high moral standards." One does not think if a paedophile having such a quality.  If one condiders the condition to be a psychological one, a mental illness, then it should be viewed as any other mental illness.

I admit that I was not happy with the use of "virtuous" but tried to see beyond that label, to what these people were trying to achieve. Perhaps  somerhing like "reformed" might be better? By chosing "virtuous" there are, perhaps, trying to boost their image a little too far.

I think virtuous fits, esp. if they've never acted on their urges.  I think discipline, self-control and giving the welfare of others top priority over ones own desires are definitely virtues.  Even if they once acted on their urges but forced themselves to stop, I think "virtuous" fits just as well as "reformed".  If they also make it a point to help children victimized by actual child molesters (while staying far away from children themselves), even better.

I agree with all you say, Sandy, but words produce images in the mind that, for some people, seem to conflict with their usage, the association in which they are attached.

Thus some might think that a paedophile, practicing or otherwise, cannot ever be better than some kind of "scum of humanity." Associating "virtuosity" with such creates a dissonance in their minds.
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Dave

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2017, 07:21:44 AM »
OK, I have to give in to "mental illness" as defined by the medical authorities since that will be the legal standard. Homosexuality was once, officially and legally, considered to be a mental illness, still is in some countries. The killer with a mental condition that is on the APA, or any other official, list is not considered culpable of the crime. The "fault" lies in their mind, whether from inherent genetic factors or physical injury. Their condition msy not be treatable, other than by physical restrsint and the forced use of medication, but that is merely "containmrnt."

If they are rational enough to "self-treat" they may still be considered mentally ill (because they have a psychiatric or psychological diagnosis) but may posdibly be held responsible for their actions. Mental illness is also "natural." Where and how, logically, does one draw a line? The doctors have done so I agree.

I am not advocating for paedophillia here, or any free defence of active paedophiles. I also applaud the "virtuous paedophiles" in their self-restraint. And in the real world the treatment, by the law, of active paedophiles is all we can achieve. But part of me has to consider those people as much "victims" of their own genes and environment as the paraphrenic or psychopath - even if that is not a popular point of view!

PS, I also speak as a victim who tries to stand one step back from the emotional.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:45:34 AM by Dave »
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Sandra Craft

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Re: virtuous pedophiles?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2017, 10:34:01 AM »

PS, I also speak as a victim who tries to stand one step back from the emotional.

Ditto.  It's a coping mechanism.
Sandy

  
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AngelOfDeath

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Re:
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2017, 06:00:55 AM »
i agree mostly. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 05:29:50 PM by AngelOfDeath »