Author Topic: Do we owe Muslims another apology?  (Read 655 times)

Dave

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2018, 06:45:36 AM »
wouldn't it be, that if Islam is as good a religion said it is by many Islamist, they would make an attempt to criticize the ones doing the harmful deeds. I expect that the Islamic clergy would be highly outspoken in this matter. But, I've heard nada from them.
There have been instances in the UK where the  Muslim Council of Britain has criticized the violence, saying that members of Daesh etc are not really abiding by the tenets of Islam. But since the MBA is also set-up to promote and defend Islam in any way (other than by violence) it sort of cancels out in the end. It seems even some Musims think them too extreme on certain matters. As Tank says, the "good Muslims" do not get the media attention that the bad ones do.

Apart from in Iran there is no real hierachy in the Muslim clergy, each imam stands alone - wether he is he is really qualified for his post or not. They are, more or less, ranked by their standing in their bit of society, so say the things your bunch want to hear and you are in. Once "in" you can dend the message, and the mood, any way you want. Each Muslim interprets the writings and rules in his or her way. Like minds congregate.

There is no provision for "excommunication" or anything similar it seems, you are born and die a Muslim and, strictly, neither you nor anyone else can change that status. This includes doing things that even any "right thinking" Muslim considers barbaric.

Christians are often so far away in their mindsets that atheists cannot understand them and what we sometimes call their delusions. And yet Christians can do things that an objective observer might think way outside the tenets of their written and expressed beliefs. The Muslim mindset is so far beyond it is truly alien I think. But, as various sayings go, like walking in another's boots, you will never fully understand them until you learn how to think like them.
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Old Seer

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2018, 02:08:40 PM »
On the whole it seems like they're not doing very much to help stop the process.
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Dave

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 02:59:36 PM »
On the whole it seems like they're not doing very much to help stop the process.

Short of making terrorist bands illegal - which the Shi'ite countries mostly have* since most terrorists, there and here, are Sunni - or shooting or bombing each other - which some are, with abandon, what else do you want them to do?

Ignoring the over all scale America could well be accused of "not doing very much" about it's own, home grown, violent tendency. Their politicians, businessmen and priests do not all condemn the men of violence, the same can be said about your movers and shapers regarding supporting the right of  people to own, and even carry, the means to kill others. Yes, there are some rules to that but . . .

Added later: forgot to add that, as hinted before the liberals and good guys rarely get the coverage of the shouters and fist shakers. In an Islamic country that is even more evident than in "secular" America. But your good guys still do not get much done - you might have to rely on the kids voting the shouters out in ten or twenty years time. Providing they don't become shouters themselves . . .

* Have to qualify that, Iran is often accused of supporting terrorists. In the case of Hezbollah this is mostly true, though the legitimacy of Israel,  especially with regards to it's expansion into Palestinian lands, is still questioned quite widely. Are the Palestinians an oppressed nation and Hezbollah merely their legitimate politico-military wing? They support the rebels in the Yemen, but that is a proxy war with Saudi Arabia, and in that part of the world warfare and terrorism can be hard to separate! Many nations, including yours and mine, have indulged in similar shenanigans. In Syria they support the legitimate (if terrible) government whilst we support the (almost equally as terrible) rebels.

The old saying about stones and glass houses does come to mind. And the one about stones and innocence.

A "seer" is one who sees the present clearly and projects that into the future, makes predictions. What future do you see projected Old Seer?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:53:56 PM by Dave »
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Old Seer

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2018, 09:48:09 PM »
Not good, Dave. But, in the total end everything will be OK for those left alive. We estimate from 20 to 40 years all will be changed. No central governments or religions. We don't see a nuclear war tho. I'm not a 'diviner" or religious, no one in my group is. That's all hocus pokus.  Science rules.

Prophecy isn't anything special, it's knowing psychological trends--- a particular thought line (mental state) leads to it's result. That's what psychiatry is about---analyzing a mental condition and knowing where it goes and causes. I'm not a psychologist, but I know basics from my friends that are. One problem in psychology is, it can't predict when, only what.

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Arturo

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2018, 11:53:12 PM »
Not good, Dave. But, in the total end everything will be OK for those left alive. We estimate from 20 to 40 years all will be changed. No central governments or religions. We don't see a nuclear war tho. I'm not a 'diviner" or religious, no one in my group is. That's all hocus pokus.  Science rules.

Prophecy isn't anything special, it's knowing psychological trends--- a particular thought line (mental state) leads to it's result. That's what psychiatry is about---analyzing a mental condition and knowing where it goes and causes. I'm not a psychologist, but I know basics from my friends that are. One problem in psychology is, it can't predict when, only what.

Not to get picky but psychology is more a study of the individual. Sociology is the science of societies and the patterns to look for are in there. Not psychology. Although there is some overlap obviously, you mostly want to focus on sociology since that deals with issues of societies. But then there is that other one which name escapes me where they look at tribes and how they lived in the past. And that is kind of like the middle ground.

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Old Seer

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2018, 03:09:46 AM »
Understood, Arturo.
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Dave

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2018, 04:15:12 AM »
Not good, Dave. But, in the total end everything will be OK for those left alive. We estimate from 20 to 40 years all will be changed. No central governments or religions. We don't see a nuclear war tho. I'm not a 'diviner" or religious, no one in my group is. That's all hocus pokus.  Science rules.

Prophecy isn't anything special, it's knowing psychological trends--- a particular thought line (mental state) leads to it's result. That's what psychiatry is about---analyzing a mental condition and knowing where it goes and causes. I'm not a psychologist, but I know basics from my friends that are. One problem in psychology is, it can't predict when, only what.

Not to get picky but psychology is more a study of the individual. Sociology is the science of societies and the patterns to look for are in there. Not psychology. Although there is some overlap obviously, you mostly want to focus on sociology since that deals with issues of societies. But then there is that other one which name escapes me where they look at tribes and how they lived in the past. And that is kind of like the middle ground.

Not quite sure you are right in saying pdychology does not apply to masses.

Quote
psychology
sʌɪˈkɒlədʒi/
noun
1.
the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behaviour in a given context.
synonyms:   study of the mind, science of the mind, science of the personality, study of the mental processes
"she has a degree in psychology"
2.
the mental characteristics or attitude of a person or group.
"the psychology of child-killers"
synonyms:   mindset, mind, mental processes, thought processes, way of thinking, cast of mind, frame of mind, turn of mind, mentality, persona, psyche, (mental) attitude(s), make-up, character, disposition, temperament, temper, behaviour; informalwhat makes someone tick
"research on the psychology of the road user"

(My bold)

"Mob psychology", "shopping psychology" etc are fields of study ir practice. Your behaviour is midified by advertising, layout, music etc in stores, "you" are part of a shopping mob and those things come from careful study of human behaviour as individuals. Nations do have a psychology as well, thiugh I admit that the border where psychology merges into sociology is a very porous one.

Quote
sociology
səʊʃɪˈɒlədʒi,səʊsɪˈɒlədʒi/
noun
the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society.
the study of social problems.

One can affect the other quite easily. Poor sociological conditions, warfare, poverty, hunger, poor or no housing etc, can have obvious effects on the psychology of individuals - some might get depressed or more seriously mentally ill, others violent, even towards their fellow dufferers through a sense of impotence againt "authority".  But those individual effects may be treated "en masse" by aid agencies with only the children, if they are lucky, coming in for more attention as individuals or small groups. Relieving even minor sociological problems can have a marked psychological effect.

Our nuisance neighbour is a socioligical problem who is having a psychological effect on those, more than one, living closest to him.
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Arturo

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2018, 02:27:18 PM »
Mob psychology is no more different than psychology in a communist country. The individual minds are the ones that are eventually studied in things such as that. Especially in clinical psychology and abnormal psychology, the emphasis is really on the individual rather than the whole. Once you get to collective conscious there is a lot more data to handle and it can be fairly inconsistent and I'm not sure if that is something someone could handle. So it might be best that one ignores that in favor of something more appropriate. Once you get into groups it's more Anthropology (the word I was looking for) and Sociology. But yes there are some overlaps like I said. Where one does affect the other. And then we have the whole neuroscience thing that goes even deeper into the mind.

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Dave

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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2018, 04:21:19 PM »
Mob psychology is no more different than psychology in a communist country. The individual minds are the ones that are eventually studied in things such as that. Especially in clinical psychology and abnormal psychology, the emphasis is really on the individual rather than the whole. Once you get to collective conscious there is a lot more data to handle and it can be fairly inconsistent and I'm not sure if that is something someone could handle. So it might be best that one ignores that in favor of something more appropriate. Once you get into groups it's more Anthropology (the word I was looking for) and Sociology. But yes there are some overlaps like I said. Where one does affect the other. And then we have the whole neuroscience thing that goes even deeper into the mind.

Not sure what you mean in that first sentence, Arturo - do you have experience of psychology in a communist country? Or experience of whst the media show you, like the shouting, gesticulating mobs audiences at Trump's rallies?

OK, for "mob" read "crowd", "group", "class" or any other psychology involving people in bunches of more than, say, two. Clinical psychology is mostly one on one, possibly involving more in a family setting. Marketting psychologists study decades worth of data from which products people buy, and survey why they bought them (taken part in such). Pachet type, colour, font style and size can be as important as texture, taste or whatever.

Then you draw up Gausian, "bell", curves of customer response to various aspects of goods and place new products under the centre of the curves. That is "mass", or whatever, psychology in action. Trouble is people change and marketting psychologists are never out of work in developed countries with a free market. A sociologist will have other inferences to draw why some people got for a nice, tradional prssentation that reflects older values or some jazzy package that implies "get-up-and-go". How those things fit into the mores, ethos and culture of the society is their pigeon - so is the generational drift as the young are influenced by factors external to their culture, the Internet for example. Those affect how individuals think and groups interact.
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Re: Do we owe Muslims another apology?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2018, 08:28:48 PM »
Mob psychology is no more different than psychology in a communist country. The individual minds are the ones that are eventually studied in things such as that. Especially in clinical psychology and abnormal psychology, the emphasis is really on the individual rather than the whole. Once you get to collective conscious there is a lot more data to handle and it can be fairly inconsistent and I'm not sure if that is something someone could handle. So it might be best that one ignores that in favor of something more appropriate. Once you get into groups it's more Anthropology (the word I was looking for) and Sociology. But yes there are some overlaps like I said. Where one does affect the other. And then we have the whole neuroscience thing that goes even deeper into the mind.

Not sure what you mean in that first sentence, Arturo - do you have experience of psychology in a communist country? Or experience of whst the media show you, like the shouting, gesticulating mobs audiences at Trump's rallies?

OK, for "mob" read "crowd", "group", "class" or any other psychology involving people in bunches of more than, say, two. Clinical psychology is mostly one on one, possibly involving more in a family setting. Marketting psychologists study decades worth of data from which products people buy, and survey why they bought them (taken part in such). Pachet type, colour, font style and size can be as important as texture, taste or whatever.

Then you draw up Gausian, "bell", curves of customer response to various aspects of goods and place new products under the centre of the curves. That is "mass", or whatever, psychology in action. Trouble is people change and marketting psychologists are never out of work in developed countries with a free market. A sociologist will have other inferences to draw why some people got for a nice, tradional prssentation that reflects older values or some jazzy package that implies "get-up-and-go". How those things fit into the mores, ethos and culture of the society is their pigeon - so is the generational drift as the young are influenced by factors external to their culture, the Internet for example. Those affect how individuals think and groups interact.

Yes the "Mob" and "Communist" are interchangeable in that example I gave. Basically a group of people with a single binding ideal that makes them a "cult of personality" of sorts. Essentially they exist everywhere. Even in countries that aren't identified as communist. The USA is a good example of the melting pot as we have basically every single ideology thrown in and put to our own use. Trump and his supporters would be a good example of Soviet style communism in the US. Everyone needs to work and then you will be okay. Just make sure all the money floats upwards instead of into your pockets. The ones on TV would be good ones to show as an example of fanaticism equal to that of radical islam. Especially that of the shooters. Even on Fox News when they said Obama refused to say "Islamic Terrorists" or whatever. It was actually an infringement on his freedom of speech but the republicans seemed to miss that point because he was already branded a muslim.

But anyways back to the point. Psychology is now shy from generalizations. In fact there are a lot of them made quite often. But the fact gets down to the individual mind. Just because there is a commercial on TV that everyone sees doesn't mean that it's made from just looking at the whole. In fact it started by doing tests on individuals and then they looked at their reactions, which one's were more favorable to them, and then drew comparisons. They do that all the time. The difference is when they get down to the nuanced details of the mind and how it actually functions is where you realize that it's all the same. But then you have mental illnesses like mine where we have weird ideas and reactions to things.

My friend for example has a psychotic disorder like I do but also dissociative identity disorder, DID, or multiple personalities on top of that. And the way people look at her is that she is a lying manipulator that is only out to suit her own goals. And the only reason I can understand her is because I've been there with another person. I've been the person to say that they are a liar and only trying to use people. So when it comes to people with mental illnesses, especially rare ones, it's really a case by case basis.

And psychology is not without it's flaws because brain scans are not required. In clinical settings it's mostly the practice of looking at what's on the surface, prescribing some pills to treat whatever symptoms and the underlying causes the doctor guesses that you have. And then they see you in 1-3 months and do it all over again. But yeah it's fun to be psychoanalytical but there are a lot of underlying causes that affect the brain and behavior that don't have to be there. And psychologists don't get to look at that enough unless they are researching. In practice it's hardly there. For example food affects behavior. It affects the health of your cells whether you have a mental illness or not which in turn affects the health of your mind. And it's not the same for everyone. I know this since I am a personal trainer (in training). And your cellular health affects later generations for obvious reasons because what you eat interacts with your DNA. And none of us are exactly the same right now anyway. So it just gets further down the line the more different we become.

The USA is an anomaly in that all these things mix together and now I feel that we have become a global community in that we have ideals from all over the globe thriving in our borders. And even so on the internet with people who live in seperate countries, although I would not know how well because time zones and all that.

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