Author Topic: Another Mass Shooting  (Read 9018 times)

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #195 on: March 30, 2018, 10:00:55 PM »
So I didn't read this thread. But I'm just going to say this because nobody ever thinks about it.

There are pedophiles in schools. There are pedophiles who are teachers. You want to give every person in a school a gun then you are giving pedophiles guns too. This is literally feeding the fucking problem. Feeding the trolls.Throwing gasoline onto a fire. *rabble rabble*

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #196 on: March 30, 2018, 10:04:53 PM »
In a prog on the BBC World Service regarding student attitudes to gun control (pro and anti) one of tge pro-control students sais (paraphrased): The United States is the greatest country on Earth but we are afraid of laws that theaten our security."

I wan't to change that to, "The United States is the greatest nation on Earth but we are afraid of each other."

It is not the Red Menace or the Yellow Peril they really worry about, it's the guy down the road with a room full of assault rifles and ammo. Be prepared to get your armed defence in before that nutter starts shooting.

United States is paranoid for sure. Just looking up the wikipedia article on antimissle defense systems around the time Kim  was saying he was going to bomb the US is rediculous. The USA has so many anitmissle defenses they would all be destroyed before they ever got here. And the USA wants more! The UN had a thing to restrict their building of more back in the 90s (mainly it would use satellites to track missiles but it has never come to fruition) and the US agreed to that but then broke the promise and started researching more missile defense systems although poorly funded.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #197 on: May 05, 2018, 11:05:46 AM »
This links on from Trump's stream of stupidity at the NRA conference on tge "Duie of Bullshit" thread  There were comments about violence in Britain and France, where guns are very restricted. London was mentioned specifically as having a hospital with it floors running with, blood, a "warzone".

Quote
Trump says London hospital 'a warzone' for stabbing victims as he defends US gun laws..

“I recently read a story that in London — which has unbelievably tough gun laws — a once very prestigious hospital, right in the middle, is like a war zone for horrible stabbing wounds,” Mr Trump said.
“Yes, that’s right. They don’t have guns,” he continued. “They have knives. And, instead, there’s blood all over the floors of this hospital. They say it’s as bada as a military war zone hospital. knives, knives knives. London hasn’t been used to that. They’re getting used to it. It’s pretty tough.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nra-speech-london-warzone-gun-control-second-amendment-a8337256.html

Perdonally I do not think the weapon used matters much, it is the underlying violence in society that causes one person to kill another. But, in mass killings (on both dides of tge Pond) the fifference is the number of killing per minute - there guns, and epecially semis, are more dangerous by a large factor.

There has been a surge in knife viooence in London, not the first in my memory - there was a "knife amnesty" some years ago because of a peak in incedents. That was pre UK gun control and pre antisocial media.

According to the BBC:

Quote
According to the newspaper, London overtook New York's "murder rate" in February "as the capital endured a dramatic surge in knife crime".

That is true. The New York Police Department dealt with 11 homicides in February - while London's Metropolitan Police opened investigations into 15 deaths. And in March, there were 22 killings in London and one fewer on the other side of the Atlantic.

But that grim month-by-month tally is not quite the whole story.

The one thing that's always true about statistics is that there will be blips - sudden rises or falls in the data. These two high months for London could ultimately turn out to be outliers.

We don't yet know. But older data shows why we should be cautious.

In January, for example, the Met investigated eight murders in London. The NYPD looked into 18 killings.

And that means that while Scotland Yard has opened 48 homicide inquiries so far this year, New York has in fact opened 50 murder files.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43628494

Looking at another large American city, Chicago, though I am unsure about the actual site chances are the stats are accurate, it's just the best presentation that I can find quickly:



https://heyjackass.com


It seems that Trump also reneged on what he sais, after the public display over Parkland, to tighten up on gun controls, especially age - when it has been well established that kids can go through a, hopefully temporary, periid of mental illness during puberty. That group is also the most vulnerable to pressure, bullying etc on anti-social media. Also, the mental illness front, there is always the chance that this year's mature, stable adult purchaser of a gun can be next year's paranoid killer due to trauma from social, employment or personal pressures - of which America has a good share.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #198 on: May 05, 2018, 02:07:01 PM »
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #199 on: May 05, 2018, 03:04:01 PM »
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

Quote
This fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

Haven't found any data relating ages of mass shooters yet, Wiki gives the following suggests for motives or reansons:

Quote
Contributing factors
There could be several possible factors that work together to create a fertile environment for mass murder in the United States.[34] Most commonly suggested include:

1. Failure of government background checks due to incomplete databases and/or staff shortages.[35][36]
2. Higher accessibility and ownership of guns.[34][6][37] The US has the highest per-capita gun ownership in the world with 88.8 firearms per 100 people; the second highest is Yemen with 54.8 firearms per 100 people.[34]
3. Desire for fame and notoriety.[34][6]
4. The copycat phenomenon.[6]
5. The widespread chronic gap between people's expectations for themselves and their actual achievement,[34] and individualistic culture.[38]
6. It is debatable whether mental illness is also a factor.[39][40][41] Many of the mass shooters in the U.S. suffered from mental illness, but the estimated number of mental illness cases has not increased as significantly as the number of mass shootings.[6]
7. A long history of being severely bullied.[42]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

It could be argued that the implicit definition of "mentsl illness" in that list is dodgy, 3, 4, 5 and 7 might broadly be considered as triggers for or forms of mental illness now that stress, anxiety, PTSD, non-clinical deoression and others tend to be gathered into that basket. Some may be transient but . . .
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Administrator
  • Silly Overlord
  • *****
  • Posts: 13960
  • Gender: Female
  • "Fire together, wire together"
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #200 on: May 05, 2018, 03:14:12 PM »
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


xSilverPhinx

  • Non Dvcor
  • Administrator
  • Silly Overlord
  • *****
  • Posts: 13960
  • Gender: Female
  • "Fire together, wire together"
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #201 on: May 05, 2018, 03:20:39 PM »
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

Quote
This fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

The article is available here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain

It talks about brain maturation and implications, but not temporary mental illness in late adolescence...
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #202 on: May 05, 2018, 03:31:08 PM »
It's a lot easier to kill a lot of people with a machine gun than a knife.

As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

You could be right,

Quote
This fall [2004], the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether capital crimes by teenagers under 18 should get the death sentence; the case for leniency is based in part on brain studies

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/305/5684/596.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=neuroscience%20law&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&resourcetype=HWCIT

The article is available here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8424401_Crime_Culpability_and_the_Adolescent_Brain

It talks about brain maturation and implications, but not temporary mental illness in late adolescence...

Hmm, yes, I need another term for temporary mental conditions, that might affect behaviour, other than "mental illness" as a more permanent condition. Perhaps I have been mislead by temporary "induced" conditions (work induced depression etc) being labelled as "mental illness" by radio doctors. I have heard the behaviour expressed by some juveniles described as "temporary insanity".

Is it a matter of semantics or a case lay-speak versus professional terminology?

Later:
OK! The phrase I want is "mental health issue/condition/problem/whatever".  The uses of "meantal illness" and, say, "mental health condition" sometimes a tad abstruse but looking around the latter seems safer to use here. Hmm, but is it similar to the case of comparing psychiatric to psychological?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 04:13:20 PM by Dave »
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #203 on: May 06, 2018, 05:45:07 PM »
I don't know if I could find a reliable statistic but the underlying issue is that more mentally ill are in prisons than psychiatric hospitals now. But the violent crimes are like 1-2% people with severe mental illness. So mental illness is not a factor. That is a statistic I could easily get if you wanted it but I'm kind of tired right now and I just want to add to the discussion.

There was a guy on youtube doing a Ted Talk about how mental illness diagnosis are a guessing game because there are no brain scans done to diagnose a patient. Even though they could be done, they don't allow for it because the people who use those specific brain scans said that it is unnecessary for psychologists to use the machines they use for the brain scans. And he says what he found out from looking at them can prevent things such as mass shootings. That the brain scans show that there is brain damage in those who are violent, and that the brain damage is causing it. And that there are methods now that can repair the brain damage and help people in these positions before they ruin their and other people's lives.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #204 on: May 06, 2018, 05:48:02 PM »
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?

Yeah I'm sure I could find one somewhere. It has to do with the brain development mostly. But most of the sources I find that say this are speaking of a mental illness anyway and not a statistic.

I'll return when I find something.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #205 on: May 06, 2018, 06:39:31 PM »
There seem to be several organisations on this side of the Pond dealing with mental health problems in childhood and adolescence. Not many mentions of aggression specifically though (unless you add "aggression" to the search string!)

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/c/children-and-young-people

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/statistics/mental-health-statistics-children-and-young-people

["Young Minds" is one of the charities I donate to every month, "The National Soc. for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children" being another..]

This is more probably in your line, Silver:

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080225/full/news.2008.619.html

There are others that needs payment or membership but not a lot linking adolecent mental health and tge use of guns that I can find at the moment. But even Trump said things about mental health needing more attention. Could it be another case of the professionals and politicians shoving the problem behind the curtain because the cure might be financially and politically expensive? Funding depends on politicians.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #206 on: May 06, 2018, 09:17:36 PM »
Quote
Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

 The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2018, 01:36:15 AM »
As far as I know, the age when kids can go through the "temporary" period of mental illness is in late adolescence when the kid has already graduated high school, or close to.

:notsure: I've never heard of this, do you have a source?

Quote
Although less data exist for non‐affective psychosis, available evidence suggests that median AOO is in the range late teens through early 20s.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1925038/

This was in the head notes as apart of the "recent findings" but didn't source to the evidence it suggested. However the DSM-V has a criteria for schizophrenia that a person must be in the age above in order to be diagnosed with so along with other symptoms. So there is something to think about.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Arturo

  • Do Something Crazy!
  • Has an Invisible Dragon in Their Garage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
  • Gender: Male
  • Atheist, Humanist, and Champion
    • Arturo The1  リ壱
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2018, 01:39:46 AM »
Quote
Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

 The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.

Another thing is that these things don't happen that often. The death rate continues to drop even though there is a war going on in the middle east, and all these mass murders are suddenly being reported. They actually happened a lot but nobody knows about previous ones because they were never put on the news. Just recently they took a liking to putting one on TV every chance they get. Probably because they have to compete with the internet media sources like youtube which get drastically higher numbers than any TV station now days.

     It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Wears a Colander Hat for Special Occasions
  • *****
  • Posts: 6572
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another Mass Shooting
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2018, 03:47:12 AM »
Quote
Actually, there is a clear link between mass shootings and mental illness
Repeat after me: Mass shooters are not disproportionately mentally ill."

This is the opening line of a meme that's been circulating in the aftermath of the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

But this and other efforts to downplay the role of mental illness in mass shootings are simply misleading. There is a clear relationship between mental illness and mass public shootings.

At the broadest level, peer-reviewed research has shown that individuals with major mental disorders (those that substantially interfere with life activities) are more likely to commit violent acts, especially if they abuse drugs. When we focus more narrowly on mass public shootings — an extreme and, fortunately, rare form of violence — we see a relatively high rate of mental illness.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-duwe-rocque-mass-shootings-mental-illness-20180223-story.html

OK, the above includes all mass public shootings as defined in the article, not a lot about teenagers specifically. But if adolescence does cause problems in affect, mood and behaviour the possibility of a link would not be stupid. But it also hints at an attempt to dissociate mass killings from mental health problems.

Many mass killers die themseoves so there seems to be mainly anecdotal evidence about their perdonalities and demeanor/behaviour. I have not noticed any psych- reports on those mass killers taken into custody, perhaps because I have not followed individual cases in detail or because such details have not been put into the public domain.

And this highlights another point in Trump's crap about London, taking out terrorist action and gang related killings the London numbers would come down. It would take a great number of armed police to guard against those sort of actions. As many as in America, or maybe more, per square mile in all public areas. All America's armed police don't seem to make much of a dent in preventing mass shootings - because it is not possible to do so in a society where firearms are so readily, legally or otherwise, available.

Needed, a comparison, or analysis, of the mental health differences or similarities, in reason/purpose/motive, between a 15 - 25 yo running amock with a firearm in a school or an older person with personal relationship or work grievences in a public place, or even the nutter just "having fun". Then compare those with a person acting out of ideological or religious motives (though one might question the sanity of such people as well or criminal socio/psychopathic motivation.

 The wife driven to homicide might well have mitigation in that her husband's actions over a period caused her temporary mental health problems. The other "justified" non-judicial/wartime killing of one person by another might be in self-defence when there is an immediate danger of lethal attack and no viable alternative defence. Like the old guy who was not charged for killing the intruder who attacked him recently.

Another thing is that these things don't happen that often. The death rate continues to drop even though there is a war going on in the middle east, and all these mass murders are suddenly being reported. They actually happened a lot but nobody knows about previous ones because they were never put on the news. Just recently they took a liking to putting one on TV every chance they get. Probably because they have to compete with the internet media sources like youtube which get drastically higher numbers than any TV station now days.

According to Wiki there have been 26 mass killings involving 10 or more deaths since 1949, 12 of those being before Facebook (2004), Youtube (2005) or Twitter (2006) started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

If you take another Wiki  list there have been 53 mass killings (including other than by shooting) involving 5 deaths or more since 1850. This list also includes racial, extra judicial by army, ethnic and other motives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_United_States

So, according to the above, about 25% of the number of mass killings since 1850 have happened since 2004 when (anti)social media started. So that is in the last 13 out of 167ish years, <8%. These have predominantly involved semi-automatic weapons. It might be interesting to find out what percentage were due to purely personal issues.

Prima facie evidence that (anti)social media may be a factor since 2004, through the wider opportunities it provides for bullying, exclusion (actual or perceived), attention seeking, copycat behaviour . . .  ? There is a case going on here involving the planning of a potential mass attack at a school where  copycat behaviour of an American killing has been said to be involved - though here it would have involved knives rather than guns.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.