Author Topic: Manchester concert explosion  (Read 1046 times)

Arturo

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2017, 03:56:44 AM »
Interesting enough, none of the news reports that I've seen (in Dutch, German and English) mention the M- and I- words

The mention of "the so-called Islamic State", in terms of claimed responsibility, is the only use I can remember. A few Muslims have expressed their belief that this is not a valid expression of Islam.

There does seem to be a reasonable separation between the belief as interpreted by the "Muslim in the street" and a few dangerous hot-heads in this country still. There is certainly no sense of tension in Gloucester, with its reasonably high Asian population. The Muslim shopworkers etc are just carrying on as normal. No back-lash, which is a large part of IS's aims we are told. I would nit be surpised to hear of extra security at the rugby ground or at the upcoming "Tall Ships" event in the city

Trouble is, as they often say, the security agencies have to be "lucky" every time, the terrorists only have to get "lucky" once to create a slaughter. It takes at least six operatives to watch one person 24/7 and the estimated numbers of suspects varies between 50 active snd 2000 potential.

Well one thing they do here in the US is profile. So if the person resembles a muslim in any way they are put on a list.

So they are potentially spreading their man power too far and too wide to be effective and then we get this.

Profiling can work but can also create false leads. Not sure what techniques are used the most in the UK but we do not have quite the plethora of security agencies you have over there. The National Criminal Intelligence Service, nearest we have to the FBI I think, is developing very fast - but probably not sufficiently manned and funded if I know my country. We slso need to develop a more integrated communication network, unless this has been done already. In the past the various services and police areas had no common radio facility for starters. Such things now need to be a national standard - including the armed forces, GCHQ and all intelligence agencies.

If you can't talk you can't co-ordinate with a few seconds timing.

I think I can see a UK armed para-military police agency, like the Gendarmarie and Carabinieri,  within the forseeable future. So far we have been very politically correct and, as a consequence, Islamic militancy develops in our prison system. Maybe we need our own Gitmo type establishment and stop worrying too much about segregating prisoners?

Harsh thoughts from a professed humanist but perhaps a sort of pragmatic utilitarianism is needed to reduce the chances of another Manchester. I would rather see proven militant Islamists fester in solitary for decades than another innocent child killed. That goes for innocent Muslim kids as well.

Our profiling was already going on for years when we had our string of attacks.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Tom62

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2017, 09:21:07 AM »
What pisses me off most, is that the authorities have been warned at least 5 times by terrorist's fiends and family members. And this isn't the first time, it has happened again and again and again that all information is available,  but no action is taken by the authorities to stop the terrorist before he commits his horrible act. What is the point of having all these warning and surveillance systems in place, if you don't act upon it.
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Tank

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2017, 11:43:01 AM »
What pisses me off most, is that the authorities have been warned at least 5 times by terrorist's fiends and family members. And this isn't the first time, it has happened again and again and again that all information is available,  but no action is taken by the authorities to stop the terrorist before he commits his horrible act. What is the point of having all these warning and surveillance systems in place, if you don't act upon it.
Information overload I would expect without having access to the details. Probably too many false positives leading to a syndrome close to 'the boy who cried wolf'. Plus in hind sight every thing looks so bloody obvious. There is also the issue of finite resources and the fact that the police have to get it right every time the terrorists only have to get it right every now and again. We will simply have to learn to live with these attacks until Islam is gone. Might be a while.
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Icarus

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2017, 12:08:07 AM »
Tom I sympathize with your position, But....big but....This is a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.  If the authorities act on sparse information about possible bad guys, we are fascists. If they do not act on their suspicions, we are inept pussies.  The bad guys do in fact have us by the short hair. As much as I dislike giving them credit, they are pretty damned shrewd.

Anecdotal case; Recently the US ...excuse the Trumpism; Bomb the shit out of 'em.  It seems that the bad guys surreptitiously installed explosives in a building mainly occupied by ordinary but desperate civilians. Then the bad guys baited us to bomb the building because we thought that some of the worst bad guys were occupying the building. They were not. Result; we sent a small bomb designed to eliminate the bad guys, that ignited all their explosives and killed a lot of decent people who were not antagonists, just poor civilians.

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2017, 08:00:39 AM »
I know Tank and Icarus that it is not so easy, but it is so friggin' frustrating that the attack could have been prevented if these 5 warnings were taken seriously. What I understand is that are about 23,000 Jihadists in the UK (source: the Times) and that the police is only tracking 500 of them. I find that very worrisome.
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Dave

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2017, 08:45:59 AM »
I know Tank and Icarus that it is not so easy, but it is so friggin' frustrating that the attack could have been prevented if these 5 warnings were taken seriously. What I understand is that are about 23,000 Jihadists in the UK (source: the Times) and that the police is only tracking 500 of them. I find that very worrisome.

Got a ref for that Times figure, Tom? Most estimates I can find seem to be a tenth of that as "possible" suspects - still a lot.

We are told that it takes an absolute minimum of 6 operators to track one suspect. For 500 that is 3000. Not sure that we even have that many people trained to follow suspects. Tring to follow 2000 would take a small army. Monitoring 20 000 would take a very noticeable slice of the tax income and be hard to hide.

More security means more restrictions for all, not just the suspects - incldfing a very expensive and fraud proof ID system. With technology I think that last is almost possible but it could easily become dystopian.

Ask the people: do they want the (still possibly false) sense of safety that strict ID and minitoring laws will bring, with the inherent restrictions; or the freedom of movement and action combined with the risk?

There is no solution to this problem that will not cause problems for innocent people I fear. All tend towards a fascist or totalitarian system.

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2017, 08:54:46 AM »
I know Tank and Icarus that it is not so easy, but it is so friggin' frustrating that the attack could have been prevented if these 5 warnings were taken seriously. What I understand is that are about 23,000 Jihadists in the UK (source: the Times) and that the police is only tracking 500 of them. I find that very worrisome.

Got a ref for that Times figure, Tom? Most estimates I can find seem to be a tenth of that as "possible" suspects - still a lot.

We are told that it takes an absolute minimum of 6 operators to track one suspect. For 500 that is 3000. Not sure that we even have that many people trained to follow suspects. Tring to follow 2000 would take a small army. Monitoring 20 000 would take a very noticeable slice of the tax income and be hard to hide.

More security means more restrictions for all, not just the suspects - incldfing a very expensive and fraud proof ID system. With technology I think that last is almost possible but it could easily become dystopian.

Ask the people: do they want the (still possibly false) sense of safety that strict ID and minitoring laws will bring, with the inherent restrictions; or the freedom of movement and action combined with the risk?

There is no solution to this problem that will not cause problems for innocent people I fear. All tend towards a fascist or totalitarian system.

Here is the link, as requested
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Dave

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2017, 09:24:32 AM »
I know Tank and Icarus that it is not so easy, but it is so friggin' frustrating that the attack could have been prevented if these 5 warnings were taken seriously. What I understand is that are about 23,000 Jihadists in the UK (source: the Times) and that the police is only tracking 500 of them. I find that very worrisome.

Got a ref for that Times figure, Tom? Most estimates I can find seem to be a tenth of that as "possible" suspects - still a lot.

We are told that it takes an absolute minimum of 6 operators to track one suspect. For 500 that is 3000. Not sure that we even have that many people trained to follow suspects. Tring to follow 2000 would take a small army. Monitoring 20 000 would take a very noticeable slice of the tax income and be hard to hide.

More security means more restrictions for all, not just the suspects - incldfing a very expensive and fraud proof ID system. With technology I think that last is almost possible but it could easily become dystopian.

Ask the people: do they want the (still possibly false) sense of safety that strict ID and minitoring laws will bring, with the inherent restrictions; or the freedom of movement and action combined with the risk?

There is no solution to this problem that will not cause problems for innocent people I fear. All tend towards a fascist or totalitarian system.

Here is the link, as requested
Thanks, Tom. The figures seem to vary a little between media titles but seem reliable in terms of source. But, being ever sceptical about the media I would like to get hold of the actual notices these were taken from. Then again, I am sceptical of government press handouts . . .

However, the problem of cost and freedom in general still applies. Though it serms to have different nstional characteristics, mostly historical, that means greater public restrictions on movement etc. will possibly have different national repercussions. They will have to apply to all, regardless of ethnic or racial origin - unless accusations of fascism or appartism are acceptable to the peoples and governments. I doubt even that would end all violence from one group or another, it hasn't so far in human history.
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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2017, 12:13:46 AM »
I'm sure some of you will be glad to hear that Crow is fine.  :)

I got a hold of him and he gave me permission to share this happy and sad news with all of you:

Quote
From: Magdalena
Sent: 26 May 2017 05:20
To: Crow
Subject: Manchester Concert...Hi, Adam...it's Magdalena
 
We're thinking about you.

Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 09:32:09 PM »
Crow is the nearest member.
Claire is over that way too.

Yes Mags, how are you?

I was very close to the event when it happened and knew a person who died but hadn't spoke to them for over a decade but still slightly more upsetting than normal. A very unusual week.

Good to hear from you!
A.

Hi, A.,

It's good to know you're OK, it's also good to hear from you again after so long!

It's sad to hear you lost someone in the attack. We're all connected in this world, and this sort of horrible thing affects all of us around the world. My sincere condolences on the death of your friend.

The gang is wondering about you, could I share with them your email? If no, I understand.

We'll talk again, later, take good care of yourself.

Bitter and sweet, isn't it?  :felix:


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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2017, 12:22:43 AM »
Bitter and sweet, isn't it?  :felix:

I'm just glad he's OK.  He was hard on my nerves, but I'm glad he's OK.
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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2017, 12:37:46 AM »
Bitter and sweet, isn't it?  :felix:

I'm just glad he's OK.  He was hard on my nerves, but I'm glad he's OK.

I like to compare some people to my recipes. Crow was/is...what's the word...? Ah, yes! Crow was/is spicy:smilenod:

...Some people like that, others don't.


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2017, 03:40:33 AM »

I like to compare some people to my recipes. Crow was/is...what's the word...? Ah, yes! Crow was/is spicy:smilenod:

...Some people like that, others don't.

I always thought of him as oxtail soup.
Sandy

  
"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?"  from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

Magdalena

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2017, 05:09:18 AM »

I like to compare some people to my recipes. Crow was/is...what's the word...? Ah, yes! Crow was/is spicy:smilenod:

...Some people like that, others don't.

I always thought of him as oxtail soup.

 :notsure:


...oxtail soup...?  :chin:


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2017, 06:29:49 AM »

I like to compare some people to my recipes. Crow was/is...what's the word...? Ah, yes! Crow was/is spicy:smilenod:

...Some people like that, others don't.

I always thought of him as oxtail soup.

 :notsure:


...oxtail soup...?  :chin:

Toothsome, but hard to swallow.
Sandy

  
"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?"  from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

Magdalena

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Re: Manchester concert explosion
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2017, 06:40:43 AM »

I like to compare some people to my recipes. Crow was/is...what's the word...? Ah, yes! Crow was/is spicy:smilenod:

...Some people like that, others don't.

I always thought of him as oxtail soup.

 :notsure:


...oxtail soup...?  :chin:

Toothsome, but hard to swallow.

There you go!  ;D
He's an oxtail soup with a side order of salsa roja de chile de arbol with chips.
  ;D


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.