Author Topic: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.  (Read 34588 times)

xSilverPhinx

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2017, 11:28:28 PM »
Trump's Muslim ban remains blocked. Unanimous court decision. This will likely go to the Supreme Court now, but still very good news:

Court Refuses to Reinstate Travel Ban, Dealing Trump Another Legal Loss


The burn! Trump will be Tweetin' now! :lol:
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Recusant

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2017, 12:00:44 AM »

The burn! Trump will be Tweetin' now! :lol:

Yes, he went full capslock for a typically idiotic mini-rant.



The thing is, Trump's idea of "extreme vetting" is ignorant, because the vetting on people coming from these countries is already extremely rigorous.

In addition: "It’s Not Foreigners Who are Plotting Here: What the Data Really Show" | Lawfare

The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2017, 12:10:06 AM »


Is fear mongering the only tactic in his arsenal?   ::)
Give no mercy to your fear.



Mr. B

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2017, 01:13:12 AM »
The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.

Middle man here,

I am curious what WILL make the US safer? Or is the argument that we are all ready safe enough and all this talk of security and walls and vetting and deportation is just a political ruse?

The only reason I am confused is because of shit like this.


Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?

Argue your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2017, 03:20:16 AM »
The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.

Middle man here,

I am curious what WILL make the US safer? Or is the argument that we are all ready safe enough and all this talk of security and walls and vetting and deportation is just a political ruse?

The only reason I am confused is because of shit like this.


1. Did you read the article?

2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

3. Do you realize that there is already a physical barrier in many places along the southern border?

Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?

The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2017, 08:45:01 AM »
I am also confused by your logic, Mr B.

There is only so much any politician can say about a subject that he or she perceives to be important to the electorate. Within their diverse ideological limits they will say similar things, come to similar conclusions. Make similar promises they can't keep without beggaring the naion.
 
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Asmodean

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2017, 02:36:05 PM »


Is fear mongering the only tactic in his arsenal?   ::)
Is that Neil Degrasse Tyson?
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2017, 02:38:40 PM »
Yep.  ;D

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Mr. B

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2017, 02:00:16 AM »

1. Did you read the article?

No, I just read your summation. I probably should have read the article before commenting but I was pressed for time. I simply trusted your summary and responded to it with a couple of questions.

Quote
2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

Although none of the clips support building an actual wall, they do support the desire for controlling the border. What difference does it make if it's a physical wall or an invisible fence? The desire to keep track of and control the flow of people into our country has been expressed by many people from both major political parties. If they don't mean what they say, then they shouldn't say it.

Quote
3. Do you realize that there is already a physical barrier in many places along the southern border?

Yes. In some places it's a river. In some places it's a fence. In some places it's a wall. In some places it's just open dessert waste land.

Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?
The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

It's all contextual conjecture. There were reports that ISIS was smuggling their fighters in among refugees.

[BERLIN — An Algerian couple, suspected of planning a terrorist attack in Berlin and arrested on suspicion of belonging to the Islamic State, entered Germany late last year and applied for asylum as Syrian refugees — part of a pattern of terrorism suspects entering Europe under the guise of fleeing war, the German authorities said Friday.

The police in Berlin published a photo they said was of the husband, showing a bearded man with his face blacked out, pointing a pistol at the camera, with two Kalashnikov rifles propped up beside him on a sofa strewn with other weapons. The photo was believed to have been taken in Syria, where German media reports said the man had received terrorist training with the Islamic State.]
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/world/europe/germany-refugees-isis.html?_r=0

Here, Mrs. Clinton explains how Trump's rhetoric is being used by ISIS as a recruiting tool.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-quick-cuts/watch/clinton-trump-s-rhetoric-being-used-for-terror-recruitment-768508995786

She told us that CIA director Michael Hayden said "Donald Trump is being used as a recruiting Sergeant for the Terrorists."

These are the two quickest examples I could find to illustrate what is befuddling me. On the one hand, we have reports that ISIS is using the refugee crisis to smuggle their people into other countries. On another hand we have claims that ISIS is using Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric, concerning border security, as a tool to recruit more people to their cause. Then on the next foot we have a video showing all kinds of "tuff" talk about reinforcing our southern border by Democrats. Yet, I am to believe that it is somehow anti American and pro ISIS now that Trump is promising to reinforce our borders when we know that ISIS is trying it's best to sneak in?

I'm not making a point. I am seeking clarification from people whom I consider to be more educated about these things than I.

I am also confused by your logic, Mr B.

Me too.

Argue your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.

Recusant

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2017, 05:14:48 AM »

1. Did you read the article?

No, I just read your summation. I probably should have read the article before commenting but I was pressed for time. I simply trusted your summary and responded to it with a couple of questions.

OK. There are two separate issues here that you seem to be conflating.

The southern border of the US and how the government deals with the problems associated with it is one issue. The threat of terrorism perpetrated by immigrants from Muslim-majority countries overseas is a separate issue. Mixing the two together will not help to gain clarity in regard to either one of them.

My post as well as the two articles I linked, and the court case that Trump was commenting on are about the second issue, and that issue alone.

The Lawfare article is over 4,000 words of analysis and exposition. My summary was extremely brief because it's a complex topic and I expected that anybody who actually had an interest in the topic would read the article.

Here are a few quotes that may whet your appetite:

Quote
[T]he Bowling Green Massacre aside, it’s possible that Conway is right in some larger sense: that a close look at these cases would show heaps of refugees or immigrants from the seven named countries—Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen—plotting to blow things up and shoot up nightclubs and concert halls.

So let’s take a hard look at some empirical data I put together on who the terrorists are and how they relate to the assumptions in the executive order.

For those who don’t want to do this deep dive, here’s a quick two-sentence summary: Conway’s position is empirically indefensible. Absolutely nothing in the large body of data we have about real terrorist plots in the United States remotely supports either a focus on barring refugees or a focus on these particular seven countries.

Nothing.

[. . .]

The Program on Extremism at George Washington University has routinely published statistics indicating that the “vast majority” of individuals charged in the U.S. with offenses related to ISIL are U.S. citizens. When considering all terrorism offenses, that claim holds up—80 of the 97 suspects arrested in the past two years, or more than 82 percent, are American citizens.

Most of those, notably, are not naturalized citizens. Of the U.S. citizens, only six were naturalized. In other words, more than 76 percent of individuals arrested by the FBI over the past two years for terrorism-related offenses were U.S. citizens as a result of having been born in the United States.

[. . .]

[O]f those subjects who planned and took concrete steps to conduct an attack in the United States, only one, Nelash Mohamed Das—the citizen of Bangladesh who was arrested at the house of his target—is not an American citizen. The remaining 26 terrorism subjects who plotted terrorist attacks in the United States are all non-naturalized U.S. citizens. Some like Mohamed Bailor Jalloh, Jonas M. Edmonds, and Munir Abdulkader chose military and law enforcement targets, as alleged by the government. Several others planned attacks in New York City, or tried to emulate the Boston Marathon Bombings use of pressure cookers.

* * *

Now for a diversion onto the separate issue of the southern border. . . .

2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

Although none of the clips support building an actual wall, they do support the desire for controlling the border. What difference does it make if it's a physical wall or an invisible fence? The desire to keep track of and control the flow of people into our country has been expressed by many people from both major political parties. If they don't mean what they say, then they shouldn't say it.

You will be hard pressed to find any politician in the US who does not support strong border controls on the southern border of the US. That doesn't mean that Trump's bloviation on the topic is supported by the politicians Dice showed clips of. The title of Dice's video is blatantly dishonest.

* * *

. . . And so back to the confusion between the two separate issues.

The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

It's all contextual conjecture. There were reports that ISIS was smuggling their fighters in among refugees.

Not over the southern border of the US, though, and not among the refugees entering the US from overseas either, right?

Quote
BERLIN — An Algerian couple, suspected of planning a terrorist attack in Berlin and arrested on suspicion of belonging to the Islamic State, entered Germany late last year and applied for asylum as Syrian refugees — part of a pattern of terrorism suspects entering Europe under the guise of fleeing war, the German authorities said Friday.

The police in Berlin published a photo they said was of the husband, showing a bearded man with his face blacked out, pointing a pistol at the camera, with two Kalashnikov rifles propped up beside him on a sofa strewn with other weapons. The photo was believed to have been taken in Syria, where German media reports said the man had received terrorist training with the Islamic State.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/world/europe/germany-refugees-isis.html?_r=0

The first article I linked talks about the vetting process that is already in place for people coming to the US as refugees from overseas, and how extremely rigorous it is already. What is happening in Europe is a red herring.

Here, Mrs. Clinton explains how Trump's rhetoric is being used by ISIS as a recruiting tool.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-quick-cuts/watch/clinton-trump-s-rhetoric-being-used-for-terror-recruitment-768508995786

She told us that CIA director Michael Hayden said "Donald Trump is being used as a recruiting Sergeant for the Terrorists."

Clinton clearly described the rhetoric that she was referring to. It has nothing to do with the southern border of the US. It has everything to do with an anti-Muslim stance by Trump.

These are the two quickest examples I could find to illustrate what is befuddling me. On the one hand, we have reports that ISIS is using the refugee crisis to smuggle their people into other countries. On another hand we have claims that ISIS is using Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric, concerning border security, as a tool to recruit more people to their cause.

See above. There is no basis for conflating Trump's blathering about building a wall on the southern border of the US with his anti-Muslim rhetoric, and the existing vetting process for immigrants coming into the US from overseas is not comparable to what is going on in Europe.

Then on the next foot we have a video showing all kinds of "tuff" talk about reinforcing our southern border by Democrats. Yet, I am to believe that it is somehow anti American and pro ISIS now that Trump is promising to reinforce our borders when we know that ISIS is trying it's best to sneak in?

Trump is not "pro ISIS" and nobody has said that he is. However, his xenophobic comments about Muslims have been used as a recruiting tool by ISIS.

Again, the southern border is a separate issue from the any attempts by ISIS to infiltrate by posing as refugees coming from overseas, and I'm having trouble understanding why you've intertwined them in the way that you have.


« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 05:37:29 AM by Recusant »
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Asmodean

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2017, 10:48:13 AM »
Yep.  ;D


Ha!

He's one of my favourite popularisers of all things complicated.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2017, 11:12:13 AM »
Yes, a gifted speaker too and a bit more charismatic than Dawkins. ;D
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Asmodean

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2017, 11:20:28 AM »
Yes, I do prefer his style over that of prof. Dawkins, although the latter does have his moments. I saw this film where he was lecturing religious students on factual things, and it did change my already positive perspective of him to the better. Still, he is somewhat abrasive.

...I think me I deserves to have a Neil Degrasse Tyson vid in the background while I'm redefining computer science here, followed by a Richard Dawkins one. :smilenod:
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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2017, 08:02:58 PM »
To elucidate the idea that Trump's rhetoric as well as his "travel ban" are nothing other than counter-productive when it comes to making the US safer from ISIS and other violent radical Islamists:

"Is Trump Driving Recruits to ISIS?" | Scientific American

Quote
Is Donald Trump effectively acting as an ISIS recruiting sergeant? The research we and other social psychologists have conducted in recent years suggests that the answer is probably yes.

Fueling Extremes

For starters, consider the fact that, when Trump announced his intention to ban Muslims from the U.S. on the campaign trail, ISIS promptly re-aired the announcement as part of its propaganda offensive. At the time, General James Mattis, now Secretary of Defense, said the proposed ban was “causing us great damage.” ISIS leaders also used news of Trump’s election victory as a rallying cry, celebrating it as heralding “the imminent demise of America.”  And, although it is too early to gauge the full reaction to this latest escalation, jihadist groups have already hailed the “blessed ban” as proof the U.S. is at war with Islam—with one group going so far as to describe President Trump as “the best caller to Islam,” according to the Washington Post.

All the early evidence indicates that the seven-nation ban doesn't fight fire with fire—as President Trump contends—but rather adds fuel to that fire. The reciprocal dynamic here could not be clearer: Trump feeds off ISIS and ISIS feeds off Trump. This is part of what Douglas Pratt from the University of Waikato in New Zealand refers to as co-radicalization. Extreme actions and statements are used to provoke others to treat your own group as dangerous—and that helps to consolidate followers around those very leaders who preach greater emnity. 

[Continues . . .]
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Dave

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Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2017, 08:35:27 PM »
I heard something on the news about a new executive order, regarding the ban, early next week, context was instead of fighting the current court decisions.

Seems that some evangelicals are not happy with the ban either.

Quote
Evangelical figures from all 50 states published a letter this week calling on President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence to rethink their four-month moratorium on refugee resettlement.
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