Author Topic: do you view religion as a 'crutch'?  (Read 591 times)

Asmodean Prime

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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2006, 03:01:44 PM »
jassman, to add to the above points, are we more civilized now than in the past, when people are afraid to leave their homes, children are killing children with knives and guns, the threat of terrorism and even nuclear war are looming on the horizon (man has historically used every weapon he invented), we have aids, natural disasters, famines -60,000 children, not adults, just children will die of hunger while you are in bed tonight (8 hours) -another 120.000 before the full day of 24 hours is up (W.H.O official figures) - not counting those that die of violence, disease, etc.  people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,

i could go on....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Anonymous »

Jassman

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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2006, 03:10:15 PM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
jassman, i think we are deluded to think human qualities are improving on history.

Please read and review these torture devices that were supposedly used in the past on heretics:

jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

If this is true, then it is extremely obvious that humans are getting better. Some of the things on that page are the most disgusting things imaginable. I can't believe anyone could do that to another human being. I'm going to look further into the things described on this page to verify their truth.

Here are a couple of other pages I have found with more information:

Please view the following at your own discretion.


http://www.vaginalpear.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_cradle

How can anyone do something like this? Especially given the fact that it was a torture prescribed because of a difference in opinion, not necessarily a crime...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Jassman »
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Jassman

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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2006, 03:14:01 PM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,


Huh?

gatesfoundation.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Jassman »
[size=75]"You ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?" -Bill Hicks[/size]

[size=75]I'm drowning in the fear of gods. The more I see the less I want. I was not raised

Court

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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2006, 03:15:49 PM »
I agree with Jassman...I mean, people used to watch cat-burnings in ancient Europe as entertainment. And christianity is not the answer, that's for sure. The bible calls for the stoning of non-believers, gay, and kids who smart off to their parents. Honestly.

The intolerance and flat-out bigotry of religion (I'm emphasizing christianity and islam, as some religions are not this way) is a stumbling block in our development of a more cooperative society.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Court »
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McQ

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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2006, 03:34:33 PM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
jassman, to add to the above points, are we more civilized now than in the past, when people are afraid to leave their homes, children are killing children with knives and guns, the threat of terrorism and even nuclear war are looming on the horizon (man has historically used every weapon he invented), we have aids, natural disasters, famines -60,000 children, not adults, just children will die of hunger while you are in bed tonight (8 hours) -another 120.000 before the full day of 24 hours is up (W.H.O official figures) - not counting those that die of violence, disease, etc.  people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,

i could go on....


Please go on...tell us how Christianity has helped this situation over the past 2000 years. You can skip the parts about the Crusades, the Inquisition, Holy Wars, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by McQ »
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Asmodean Prime

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2006, 03:45:02 PM »
McQ, i think you're right in a lot of points you make above, these were mostly shameful episodes carried out supposedly in the name of God.  I admit there are things i cant understand, but i maintain that for me personally as i understand it, God is a God of love, and doesnt give us the right to do such things.  i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.   i think if people lived as with the understanding that God is love, society WOULD improve.  its certainly not improved with the gradual abandonment of God either though, has it? - since peope dont seem to have much of a moral compass, or believe they are answerable to God.  

i dont understand or agree with all the killings or cruelty. i truly think that the majority simply dont understand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Anonymous »

Jassman

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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2006, 03:51:56 PM »
onlyme, after the links I posted, do you still believe that world conditions are getting worse?

Quote from: "onlyme"
i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.


Why does he need to kill? If God is love, and God is omniscient and omnipotent, then surely the most just, merciful, and efficient method is just not to create the bad people to begin with. Why create someone if that action is ultimately going to make them suffer forever? If God is love, how can he do that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Jassman »
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McQ

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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2006, 03:54:23 PM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
McQ, i think you're right in a lot of points you make above, these were mostly shameful episodes carried out supposedly in the name of God.  I admit there are things i cant understand, but i maintain that for me personally as i understand it, God is a God of love, and doesnt give us the right to do such things.  i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.   i think if people lived as with the understanding that God is love, society WOULD improve.  its certainly not improved with the gradual abandonment of God either though, has it? - since peope dont seem to have much of a moral compass, or believe they are answerable to God.  

i dont understand or agree with all the killings or cruelty. i truly think that the majority simply dont understand.


Onlyme, I hear you, but you have to understand that these aren't just things in some history book that we just read about. People, just like you and me, lived these events. The atrocities that were committed were done by men who claimed that God himself directed them to carry them out. They "heard his voice" and talked to him. We want to whitewash everything today and can, because these events happened so long ago. No one is left now that participated in the crusades. But had you lived then, you would have been part of the problem, saying, "Yes, it's God's will. Charlemagne wouldn't lie about a thing like this."

That's why I think it's imperitive that people study everything they can. Christianity isn't the only, or even the oldest religion out there. It isn't even the most sensible from a creation standpoint.
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Jassman

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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2006, 04:00:53 PM »
McQ, excellent post. It's so easy to look at these events the same way we look at statistics. Just some numbers or words on a page. But these things do stand for real occurrences that happened to real people. It is so hard for the mind to comprehend how such a large group of people could agree on such a level of despise and hate.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Jassman »
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Asmodean Prime

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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2006, 04:23:12 PM »
the point im making about leaving judgement to God is that after all He IS God (i believe it anyway), and we as humans are missing a lot of the answers, for example, we have no control over our birth, or over our departure, which are two of the most important things that will happen to any of us, so we should realise that some things are out of our control or jurisdiction, and not discount the possibility of God altogether, cos that would be just arrogant for someone like us mortal and very limited men.

theres just so much we dont know for sure, we shouldnt presume to pass judgement on the whole of our existence, the universe, God, life, etc, as though we know it all.

by the way, i wouldnt agree with charlemagne.  i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.

the thing i'm saying in essence is that i DONT have all the answers, and BECAUSE i dont, and because i realise i dont, i'm not in a position to stand and denounce God, His existence, His ways, etc

i just realise and admit i have great limitations regarding my knowledge of these things.  i couldnt presume to think that just my own rules would suffice (well, maybe i could, but i could come unstuck doing that!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Anonymous »

Amor Fati

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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2006, 07:29:26 PM »
I agree with Karl Marx that religion is a crutch, and with Nietzsche who described it as a symptom of resentiment (a tool of control for the otherwise weak).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Amor Fati »

Whitney

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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2006, 07:55:37 PM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
the point im making about leaving judgement to God is that after all He IS God (i believe it anyway), and we as humans are missing a lot of the answers, for example, we have no control over our birth, or over our departure, which are two of the most important things that will happen to any of us, so we should realise that some things are out of our control or jurisdiction, and not discount the possibility of God altogether, cos that would be just arrogant for someone like us mortal and very limited men.


In that case...it would also be arrogant to completely discount the possible  existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns...after all, we are just simple humans.

(just trying to illustrate a point)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Whitney »

MommaSquid

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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2006, 07:20:04 AM »
Quote from: "onlyme"
i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.


If your all knowing god of love were to command you to kill someone you would do it?!    That's sad and wrong.  

Try using that defense in court.   Gee, I didn't want to commit murder, but god told me to do it!   :roll:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by MommaSquid »

TwistOfCain

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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2006, 07:33:10 AM »
I feel safe in saying I wouldn't kill anybody no matter what god ordered me to do it. I don't take orders.
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Big Mac

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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2006, 08:26:23 AM »
Quote from: "MommaSquid"
Quote from: "onlyme"
i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.

If your all knowing god of love were to command you to kill someone you would do it?!    That's sad and wrong.  

Try using that defense in court.   Gee, I didn't want to commit murder, but god told me to do it!   :roll:


God told me to eat an entire package of Cadbury eggs! Can't argue with the lord!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Big Mac »
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