Author Topic: The Idea of God is not Topical Henceforth  (Read 1734 times)

Whitney

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The Idea of God is not Topical Henceforth
« on: September 09, 2006, 11:46:23 PM »
I found this on the AN and thought it was interesting...it's hard for me to understand the wording (maybe someone here can give an expanded simplification of what is being stated?) but was simplified by another member as:

Quote from: "Archmonoth"
I doubt our typical drive-by theist have the brain power to understand what you are suggesting.

However i will attempt to simplify ....

The universe can be self caused because causality can be a closed system.
 :wink:

The OP ( http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=14615 ):

Quote from: "Lonely_Warrior"
Well educated intellectual people, especially scientists, at all times demonstrate considerably smaller adherence of religiosity, than the others. However and now there are still believers of idea of the God in scientific medium. If to exclude from their number of those who feels painful requirement for external protection and a support by virtue of heavy living circumstances there are those who comes to idea of the God as a result of amazement concerning finesse of world around and absence of the answer to a problem: as all this the surprising diversification of subjects and entities in principle could be formed and as it can sustain the quasistable condition and demonstrate development.

    The common sense suggests, that for explanation of observable raging life it is necessary to admit, that each separate subject, each organism, each social unit and even a separate computer program product should contain the special internal causative engine, a source of a local determinism which maintains specific autonomous internal life in it.

    The conventional concept of determinism for today does not suppose existence of such sources. In it scandalous weakness of this concept. Not finding a required causative source within the framework of philosophy, people are compelled to address there, where always in readiness a number of exotic, exciting fancy of irrational causative sources that is in religion and mysticism.  

   Today the situation can be considerably rectified. Recently published concept Ring Determinism discovers a required internal causative source by the way a closed on itself plot of customary causal chain, a selfcontained causative circuit which, it turned out, is contained in entrails of each separate natural formation.
This selfcontained causative circuit just is that ontological base due to which each separate natural formation finds out and saves the exclusive individuality, asserts itself in the capacity of “ causa sui ” – the cause of itself.

                                                                                                       

                                  Fig. 1. A diagram of the causal chain:

A) A starting fragment of linear causal chain;
B) The closed on itself plot of the causal chain.


    Internal local causative action, continuously circulating inside a separate body, being transmitted in succession from an element to an element, ensures its systemic wholeness, synergetic wholeness in operation of its elements and subsystems, phenomenon of “emergence”, special internal policy, resistance to external actions, aggression directed to outside, egoism, an egocentricity, a self-preservation, self-organization and, at last, self-development.

    One of principled conclusions of a ring determinism will be, that under the supervisory control of the internal cause continuously circulating inside a body and under continuous pressure on the part of external factors just and there is a miracle of the self-development, resulting in to originating of observable diversification of surprising properties of subjects, organisms, social units, human products and other.

 The local causative circuit, is once randomly or designedly become closed and then finding out ability to the long-lived quasistable self-maintenance, self-resumption, or, in an event of dynamically developing systems, the determining vortex, is that high-power engine which creates, saves and induces flock of alive and nonliving natural formations to development.

So that educated people can to sigh with relief now: for them rather weighty rational argument against idea of creationism has appeared and necessity to appeal to irrational imaginations has vanished.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

McQ

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Re: The Idea of God is not Topical Henceforth
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2006, 01:06:14 AM »
Quote from: "laetusatheos"
I found this on the AN and thought it was interesting...it's hard for me to understand the wording (maybe someone here can give an expanded simplification of what is being stated?) but was simplified by another member as:

Quote from: "Archmonoth"
I doubt our typical drive-by theist have the brain power to understand what you are suggesting.

However i will attempt to simplify ....

The universe can be self caused because causality can be a closed system.
 :wink:

The OP ( http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=14615 ):

Quote from: "Lonely_Warrior"
Well educated intellectual people, especially scientists, at all times demonstrate considerably smaller adherence of religiosity, than the others. However and now there are still believers of idea of the God in scientific medium. If to exclude from their number of those who feels painful requirement for external protection and a support by virtue of heavy living circumstances there are those who comes to idea of the God as a result of amazement concerning finesse of world around and absence of the answer to a problem: as all this the surprising diversification of subjects and entities in principle could be formed and as it can sustain the quasistable condition and demonstrate development.

    The common sense suggests, that for explanation of observable raging life it is necessary to admit, that each separate subject, each organism, each social unit and even a separate computer program product should contain the special internal causative engine, a source of a local determinism which maintains specific autonomous internal life in it.

    The conventional concept of determinism for today does not suppose existence of such sources. In it scandalous weakness of this concept. Not finding a required causative source within the framework of philosophy, people are compelled to address there, where always in readiness a number of exotic, exciting fancy of irrational causative sources that is in religion and mysticism.  

   Today the situation can be considerably rectified. Recently published concept Ring Determinism discovers a required internal causative source by the way a closed on itself plot of customary causal chain, a selfcontained causative circuit which, it turned out, is contained in entrails of each separate natural formation.
This selfcontained causative circuit just is that ontological base due to which each separate natural formation finds out and saves the exclusive individuality, asserts itself in the capacity of “ causa sui ” – the cause of itself.

                                                                                                       

                                  Fig. 1. A diagram of the causal chain:

A) A starting fragment of linear causal chain;
B) The closed on itself plot of the causal chain.


    Internal local causative action, continuously circulating inside a separate body, being transmitted in succession from an element to an element, ensures its systemic wholeness, synergetic wholeness in operation of its elements and subsystems, phenomenon of “emergence”, special internal policy, resistance to external actions, aggression directed to outside, egoism, an egocentricity, a self-preservation, self-organization and, at last, self-development.

    One of principled conclusions of a ring determinism will be, that under the supervisory control of the internal cause continuously circulating inside a body and under continuous pressure on the part of external factors just and there is a miracle of the self-development, resulting in to originating of observable diversification of surprising properties of subjects, organisms, social units, human products and other.

 The local causative circuit, is once randomly or designedly become closed and then finding out ability to the long-lived quasistable self-maintenance, self-resumption, or, in an event of dynamically developing systems, the determining vortex, is that high-power engine which creates, saves and induces flock of alive and nonliving natural formations to development.

So that educated people can to sigh with relief now: for them rather weighty rational argument against idea of creationism has appeared and necessity to appeal to irrational imaginations has vanished.


Lonely_Warrior might as well be speaking Marklar. Really can't make heads nor tails of that post.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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Court

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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2006, 01:46:52 AM »
But doesn't something have to start the closed system? Or are they suggesting that the self-causing universe has just always been?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Court »
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2006, 02:54:51 AM »
Who cares? Honestly, God is logically unlikely without this confusing and somewhat self-importatn paper. Simplify kids, if God is loving, why is there a hell? A place that makes Rykers, Sing sing, and the Devil's Island look like a caribbean getaway?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 08:57:52 PM »
The issue of "well, how did everything get here" has often been a thorn in the side of atheists. I know that in certain discussions about the mythology of Jesus, I've had some Christians blurt out just such a question. It completely derails the argument. I wasn't careful the first time this happened and ended up sounding like I didn't know what I was talking about.

God creating the universe is just another god-of-the-gaps argument. It's no different intellectually from "Zeus makes lightning because how else could something as powerful as lightning just show up?".

One must stress the intellectual dead end that creationism presents. There is no inquiry beyond "goddidit". Folklore and fairy tales have absolutely no use to us in explaining the universe and they never have.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Zhavric »

Theist

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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2007, 05:15:52 PM »
Quote from: "Big Mac"
if God is loving, why is there a hell?


We all hear that God is loving, most of us have heard the sunday school lectures. Among these things, we hear that God loves us all. But what of those who refuse to love him? I'm not trying to tell you you're all condemned to hell because you don't love him, but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from. If a child stops loving their parents, and continues fighting and fighting against them, the parents will still love them but they have to let their kids go their own way because there's nothing else they can do. God doesn't abandon us if we find we are going to hell, I think he's simply saying "There's nothing more I can do for you, I've done all I can, I even sacrificed my own son for you, I'll have to let you go your own way." I don't think it's any decision of God's.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 05:04:52 PM by Theist »

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2007, 06:28:54 PM »
Quote from: "Theist"
I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from

Uhhhh... omni-presence?

If god is everywhere, he must also be in hell.

In fact, by some beliefs god not only is everywhere, he's everything (ie. "I Am")...

God is hell?  Discuss.

Semi-present, Semi-nicient,
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« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by joeactor »

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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2007, 07:05:37 PM »
Quote from: "Theist"
... but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from.  

How do you know this?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Kestrel »
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 02:33:21 AM »
Quote from: "Theist"
Quote from: "Big Mac"
if God is loving, why is there a hell? quote]

We all hear that God is loving, most of us have heard the sunday school lectures. Among these things, we hear that God loves us all. But what of those who refuse to love him? I'm not trying to tell you you're all condemned to hell because you don't love him, but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from. If a child stops loving their parents, and continues fighting and fighting against them, the parents will still love them but they have to let their kids go their own way because there's nothing else they can do. God doesn't abandon us if we find we are going to hell, I think he's simply saying "There's nothing more I can do for you, I've done all I can, I even sacrificed my own son for you, I'll have to let you go your own way." I don't think it's any decision of God's.


Simple fix....God, since he loves everyone, does all that he can to make sure everyone gets a chance to love him....this would mean showing skeptics that he exists.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 02:53:19 PM »
Quote from: "Theist"
We all hear that God is loving, most of us have heard the sunday school lectures. Among these things, we hear that God loves us all. But what of those who refuse to love him? I'm not trying to tell you you're all condemned to hell because you don't love him, but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from. If a child stops loving their parents, and continues fighting and fighting against them, the parents will still love them but they have to let their kids go their own way because there's nothing else they can do. God doesn't abandon us if we find we are going to hell, I think he's simply saying "There's nothing more I can do for you, I've done all I can, I even sacrificed my own son for you, I'll have to let you go your own way." I don't think it's any decision of God's.


You've simply defined hell for yourself different then what is literally presented.  This is a justification of how you deal with hell being eternal punishment despite the offense.

To state it clearly, the bible ( NT ) presents hell as eternal torment and suffering.  Its a punishment we have rejected as a society when we punish people for crimes.  We've accepted that the crimes of a starving man stealing food do not equate to the crimes of an individual that murders out of rage.  Obviously, christianity would present an idea we've rejected as society.. and frankly it is immoral.  It contradicts with the attributes of being all good, or all merciful.

The analogy often used by christians is the one involving a parent punishing a child.  This is a disgusting and insidious arguement as it never presents itself accurately, the elements of eternal suffering are replaced with mild forms of "punishment" in order to make it justified.  Little suzy isn't just spanked for disobeying mom and dad, she has red hot pokers stabbed in her eye sockets for all eternity.. while her body remains magically intact & alive.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by omen »

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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2007, 05:16:40 PM »
Quote from: "Kestrel"
Quote from: "Theist"
... but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from.  
How do you know this?


I do not claim to know anything for certain, you'll also notice that I had clearly said "I believe" that hell is so horrible....
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Theist »

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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2007, 05:34:33 PM »
Quote from: "Theist"
Quote from: "Kestrel"
Quote from: "Theist"
... but I believe that Hell is so horrible only because God is not there, it's the only location he's completely absent from.  
How do you know this?

I do not claim to know anything for certain, you'll also notice that I had clearly said "I believe" that hell is so horrible....


Ok. So why do you believe this?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Kestrel »
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 02:28:54 AM »
Because the Bible told him so....?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 08:21:54 PM »
It could be.

Still awaiting your reply, Theist.  :)
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 12:04:42 AM »
Well it's not like the Bible is exactly something you want to emulate. It teaches racism, sexism, slavery, murder, genocide, war mongering, rape, injustice, and basically every horrific idea or action known to man.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
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