Author Topic: The Northam mess  (Read 1450 times)

Sandra Craft

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2019, 10:19:01 PM »
I heard that an US professor considers Marry Poppins iconic chimney sweep scene to be racist, because of black facing.

Yeah, he's getting a lot of attention because of this political hornet's nest.  His position is a lot more involved than just the chimney sweep scene tho, and his objections are more to Travers' writing than Disney's movie.  Where he's drawing racist conclusions isn't in chimney sweeping being sooty work, it's in how chimney sweeps are referred to and treated (called Hottentots, and black heathens, etc) in the Poppins books. 

He's considering that coded racism, tho to me it sounds more like the objections to Mark Twain's free use of "nigger" which wasn't a code at all, it was how people talked then.  I don't think it should surprise anyone that assumptions of white superiority and black inferiority were a lot more commonplace in the past and, in some groups, the present.

What's-his-name the scholar does have a point in that the alt-Right in America have claimed Travers as one of their own so she is becoming tainted with the whole "birds of a feather" thing.
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 02:47:14 AM »
It’s more important what he does now than what he did then. We’ve all done stupid stuff.  Are we demanding perfection?

Sandra Craft

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 03:42:59 AM »
It’s more important what he does now than what he did then. We’ve all done stupid stuff.  Are we demanding perfection?

Exactly.  I know I did things in my 20s I wouldn't have done even 5 years later, much less 35 yrs later.   I'd certainly think it unfair to be judged my whole life for it.
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Asmodean

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM »
Probably.
Either you do, or you do not. Still, I'm not the one to judge - this is yours to figure out for yourself. The Instant you suggest that I am prejudiced against a group, however, I will ask you to demonstrate it.

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I also have a belief in social justice,
At one point, so did I. Today, though… Well, you know.

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recognise historical injustices,
As do I. I do not deny the Holocaust, the American slavery, the Inquisition, the Crusades… Any of it. What I am vehemently denying, however, is that somehow I bear the "original sin" of my forefathers. Never killed a Jew. Never owned a slave. Never drove the religious off their land. Guiltless.

I may help someone build a better community, but not because of some flawed sense of "historical responsibility," but rather, out of a wish for a better future.

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think fair play is fair
By definition, it is. Equality is fair play. Equity is not.

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don't want to be an asshole.
For what it's Worth, I don't think you are an asshole.

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I don't think the way to deal with a bias is denying you have one.
Refer to the first quote. Which biases, pray tell, do I hold?

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Do I think think there were/are ugly, cruel, nasty things done using blackface?
YES...and I'm sure I could cast a few cultural/racial biases their way.

Do I think blackface can never be used again and whoever does is forever tainted?
Never is a long time. I'm becoming irked by the narrow focused relentless zeal of the always offended.  Why can't they do normal porn like normal people?
Context matters. I think we agree on the underlying values here, just not on the specific actions.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 11:27:57 AM »
Do you hold prejudice against black people because of their skin color?

Probably.

Either you do, or you do not. Still, I'm not the one to judge - this is yours to figure out for yourself. The Instant you suggest that I am prejudiced against a group, however, I will ask you to demonstrate it. 

I accept the ideas that:

a)we all have an innate racism and
b)we should work to control it.

I suppose you are an exceptional individual and (a) may not apply so you don’t have to do (b).  No sarcasm intended.

We (OZ) gave a home to some of those African kids, the lost boys.  The ones made to watch as their families were raped and butchered, then made into child soldiers.  My thoughts weren’t positive, with what is known of traumatic stress I questioned the wisdom of it.  I think that is a rational reservation but I suspect there is some racial bias entangled in it.  I suspect the people who support such things are over compensating for their biases.  It is always possible that they are merely nice and kind and I’m an uncaring asshole.

What I am vehemently denying, however, is that somehow I bear the "original sin" of my forefathers. Never killed a Jew. Never owned a slave. Never drove the religious off their land. Guiltless.

I don’t know much about Norway’s historic treatment of the Sámi.
I think here the society has some sins to make amends for, it does get tiresome at times though.
 
Some years ago there was a white guy on the radio rejoicing about the indigenous way of raising kids.  They had a disproportionate number of excellent players of football (eggball but much foot involved).  He concluded that it was due to their upbringing, they were free range, the parents let them get burnt and learn their own lessons. 

About 23 years ago we were having an Xmas eve party, I gave the kids sparklers, I had a water filled glass jar ready for the spent ones because I’m careful.  I wasn’t careful enough, I didn’t tell my daughter not to touch the end of it and her finger got a bit blistered, I felt pretty crap about it, still do.

Last week an indigenous woman was saying on the radio their kids suffer many more accidents than non-indigenous kids.  Money should be provided to indigenous organisations to remedy this.  Well obviously, we don’t want no more paternalism. 
I don’t really think money is going to help though, they can't call in the helicopters.  They have to become helicopters, it’s the only way.

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I don't think the way to deal with a bias is denying you have one.
Refer to the first quote. Which biases, pray tell, do I hold?

Ah, back to the start again.
When I said that I was referring to my own struggle to live an examined life.

Do you really think you have no biases?
They are sneaky things, like roaches, you mightn’t know you’ve got any unless you turn a metaphorical light on in your contextual existential late night kitchen.

Contextual late night kitchen? WTF?

Ye I know, I didn't think anyone would read this far, I thought it had to be some kind of kitchen.

When in doubt go for existential.

Oh that's much better, still bullshit but of a much richer texture.

Certainty disturbs me


Asmodean

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Re: The Northam mess
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 02:37:28 PM »
I accept the ideas that:

a)we all have an innate racism and
b)we should work to control it.
Replace "we" with "I," and there is no problem what-so-ever. :-)

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I suppose you are an exceptional individual and (a) may not apply so you don’t have to do (b).  No sarcasm intended.
Thank you, I suppose I am at that. In this particular regard, though… I'm just an individual who doesn't care too much about people he doesn't know and at least somewhat like. I don't "not care" more or less depending on someone's ethnicity or skin color - I just. Don't. Giveafuck. If I do know and somewhat like you on the other hand, then your skin color is as boring and irrelevant to me as the brand of shoes you wear.

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We (OZ) gave a home to some of those African kids, the lost boys.  The ones made to watch as their families were raped and butchered, then made into child soldiers.  My thoughts weren’t positive, with what is known of traumatic stress I questioned the wisdom of it.  I think that is a rational reservation but I suspect there is some racial bias entangled in it.  I suspect the people who support such things are over compensating for their biases.  It is always possible that they are merely nice and kind and I’m an uncaring asshole.
Racism may well be a subset of… Xenophobia? It's not a phobia, as such, but I believe that's the word they use regardless. The question is; were you sceptical about admitting those child soldiers because they were black, because they were child soldiers, or a combination of factors? Would you be OK with Bosnian child soldiers, who have been through the same sort of shit in their lives, coming over and pitching a tent? What about Syrian refugees? What about the fortune seekers among said refugees? Are you a racist for wanting to help those directly affected by war, but not those looking for a better future?

Note that I'm not actually asking you to justify your motives - you do not owe me that any more than I owe you a justification of mine. However, if you want to ascribe motives to my actions, you ought to be able to reasonably prove that your analysis is correct, ought you not? Projecting your own biases onto me… Nah. doesn't do it. (Not accusing you specifically of having done that. Spinning a more general narrative here)

I don’t know much about Norway’s historic treatment of the Sámi.
I think here the society has some sins to make amends for, it does get tiresome at times though.
Has its ups and downs, our history. I think we were much nastier to Gypsies and such, than we ever were to the Sami peoples, but… I did none of that, and I am not responsible for it. Making amends is for the guilty. I. Am. Not. Ask me in stead to help you move us both "up and forward," and you may get a different outcome than you will from trying to pin some in-hindsight bad deeds on me, from a time before I had any say in how my society was run.

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Last week an indigenous woman was saying on the radio their kids suffer many more accidents than non-indigenous kids.  Money should be provided to indigenous organisations to remedy this.  Well obviously, we don’t want no more paternalism. 
I don’t really think money is going to help though, they can't call in the helicopters.  They have to become helicopters, it’s the only way.
Penny, my friend, I believe you've just unwittingly did an """alt-right""" meme.  :P

This quote, though. Put it in relation to what I was saying just above. Australian kids in certain communities are at a greater risk of injury than Australian kids in other communities. What can we do to remedy that? Fuck who's indigenous and who's not - if they are my people, who's suffering, do you not think that alone makes it more likely that I will try to help, than if it's some group of which I'm not a member, and which really ought to solve its own damned problems? (Well, not me-me, obviously. I'm trying to counter an identitarian narrative with a Nationalist one. Individualist would also work here, but you didn't really set me up for that)

Rhetorics matter. Unfortunately, so does playing identity games.

Ah, back to the start again.
Nono, I get it. Was underscoring an important point, that's all.

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Do you really think you have no biases?
Doesn't matter. What matters, is that if you state that I hold a particular bias, that's yours to adequately demonstrate.

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They are sneaky things, like roaches, you mightn’t know you’ve got any unless you turn a metaphorical light on in your contextual existential late night kitchen.
So... Which biases do I hold? And how do you know that I do hold them?

Again, I'm being rhetorical here. Not making any allegations. Ok... I think I can do this more clearly; if I don't know I'm biased (let's call my "unconscious bias" reason B) and do thing X for reason Y, thing Z for reason A and thing C for reason D. It may be that B figures into Y, A or D, but may it not also be that Y, A and D are by themselves my reasons to do X, Z and C? In that case, would that not also be true from the perspective of a third party observer if I was fully conscious of a potential reason B?

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Contextual late night kitchen? WTF?

Ye I know, I didn't think anyone would read this far, I thought it had to be some kind of kitchen.
I find this stuff interesting, so Yeah... Still with you.  :P Also, muh contextual late night kitchen makes some killer lasagne.  ;)
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.