Author Topic: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"  (Read 1216 times)

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2018, 04:41:47 PM »
The image of Mona Lisa doesn't breath, and never will breath: The image is not the original, and clearly when Adam and Eve were created, they did not have the knowledge of good and evil that YHVH and his angels had. The only way they gained it is by disobeying him. The idea that they would have eventually gained that knowledge otherwise is nothing but conjecture.

Well, of course, everything we are discussing is conjecture.  We are discussing what would have happened had something else not happened.  That is speculation personified.  But Adam and Eve were already gaining knowledge through their relationship with YHWH.  They learned to hear his voice, to understand his commands, to communicate with him.  My point is simply that in the story they were supposed to gain knowledge through this relationship rather than seeking it on their own.  The fact that they were able to think and communicate indicates that ultimately they were capable of knowledge.  The difference was the context - instead of being out of relationship with God they were supposed to be in that relationship.  That is where their primary source of knowledge was to be located.

I realize that the image is not the original, and Man was never going to be God.  But unlike the Mona Lisa in the painting, A&E could communicate with God.  A painting can't communicate with its subject. That's a big difference.

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2018, 05:49:56 PM »
The couple were created as full grown adults who had no knowledge of good and evil. The closest approximation we have of this in real life is people exhibiting severe antisocial personality disorder, commonly called psychopaths. From what I've read, talking therapy is an ineffective treatment of such individuals, but I suppose talking therapy from an all-powerful god would be a different story.  :)

In the Bible there are no indications that YHVH taught Adam and Eve anything beyond the command not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It appears they were both capable of speech when they were created.

Even after they were expelled from the garden people still had a relationship with YHVH--he continued to speak directly to them, as seen in Genesis 4.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Essie Mae

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2018, 10:40:17 PM »
There were lots of reasons that I stopped believing, but one of the triggers was a discussion with one of the church leaders when I was telling him about a science news story and he said to me that thinking about such things was not helpful to faith and was even dangerous; providing temptation as they ‘tickled the intellect’.The phrase is etched in my brain for ever. It’s one of the few occasions on which I was rendered speechless.
Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Wm Shakespeare


Recusant

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2018, 10:45:09 PM »
There were lots of reasons that I stopped believing, but one of the triggers was a discussion with one of the church leaders when I was telling him about a science news story and he said to me that thinking about such things was not helpful to faith and was even dangerous; providing temptation as they ‘tickled the intellect’.The phrase is etched in my brain for ever. It’s one of the few occasions on which I was rendered speechless.

 :rofl: What a great anecdote.

I'd say that a ticklish intellect is a joy forever.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Essie Mae

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2018, 12:23:59 AM »
There were lots of reasons that I stopped believing, but one of the triggers was a discussion with one of the church leaders when I was telling him about a science news story and he said to me that thinking about such things was not helpful to faith and was even dangerous; providing temptation as they ‘tickled the intellect’.The phrase is etched in my brain for ever. It’s one of the few occasions on which I was rendered speechless.

 :rofl: What a great anecdote.

I'd say that a ticklish intellect is a joy forever.

Oh it so is 😀
Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Wm Shakespeare


Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 10:38:01 PM »
It is probably not a good idea to read more into the A&E story than is there. It is a story, not literal history, and was probably meant to make a few morals or points.

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2018, 07:50:08 AM »
It is probably not a good idea to read more into the A&E story than is there. It is a story, not literal history, and was probably meant to make a few morals or points.
So there is no original sin?
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2018, 04:58:11 PM »
It is probably not a good idea to read more into the A&E story than is there. It is a story, not literal history, and was probably meant to make a few morals or points.
So there is no original sin?

I don’t see it like the standard Christian doctrine.  For me the story is a metaphor for each individual, as we lose our innocence and become self-aware. The challenge is to re-establish the experience of God in a new setting.  Increase of knowledge is part of the deal, just as we always do as we grow. The “garden” was only a stage - we were never intended to stay in our innocence.  But that’s just my spin on it.

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2018, 08:00:52 PM »
It is probably not a good idea to read more into the A&E story than is there. It is a story, not literal history, and was probably meant to make a few morals or points.
So there is no original sin?

I don’t see it like the standard Christian doctrine.  For me the story is a metaphor for each individual, as we lose our innocence and become self-aware. The challenge is to re-establish the experience of God in a new setting.  Increase of knowledge is part of the deal, just as we always do as we grow. The “garden” was only a stage - we were never intended to stay in our innocence.  But that’s just my spin on it.

Like a parable of the kids growing up and leaving home under some acrimony because the things they've learned have made them  different from their parents?
Sandy

  
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Why the Church Keeps Falling for Bad Information"
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2018, 12:14:08 AM »
It is probably not a good idea to read more into the A&E story than is there. It is a story, not literal history, and was probably meant to make a few morals or points.
So there is no original sin?

I don’t see it like the standard Christian doctrine.  For me the story is a metaphor for each individual, as we lose our innocence and become self-aware. The challenge is to re-establish the experience of God in a new setting.  Increase of knowledge is part of the deal, just as we always do as we grow. The “garden” was only a stage - we were never intended to stay in our innocence.  But that’s just my spin on it.

Like a parable of the kids growing up and leaving home under some acrimony because the things they've learned have made them  different from their parents?

Perhaps. It’s pretty clear from the Genesis story that we became something different from God. Once self-awareness is thrown into the mix, it’s hard to predict the outcome. Knowledge and experience are gained and the trajectory of development becomes very complex.