Author Topic: Man? Woman?  (Read 2931 times)

Dave

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Man? Woman?
« on: April 26, 2018, 05:05:09 PM »
Seems there is a controversy going on in the athlectics world about whether sone of the tge seemingly female runners were born female, are just females with naturally high testosterone or are dosing on the stuff. Obvious problems about invasive genetic testing not being looked at with favour.

One suggestion was that such females could run with men, since their times are equal to those of men - well above most women. Perhaps it is time that all runners were entered into races according to their times and not their gender? Competing on equivalent ability?

OK, there is the obvious problem there that "normal" women would never get a medal. So classify the runners in close ability groups (as in the paralympics) and medalise the winners in each class? Still open to abuse by those who will run a little slower to get into a lower class, then speed up in the final (similar to paralympists allegedly faking their disability to get into a lower class.)
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2018, 05:46:45 PM »
Certainty disturbs me


Dave

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 06:00:14 PM »
Forgot thst one. These people deny they are transgender but it's in the same ball park.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 06:19:48 PM »
You haven't linked to anything
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Dave

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 06:48:17 PM »
You haven't linked to anything

It was just a mention on BBC radio but I think it's a story that has been bubbling on for some time. Probably been an issue since a certain Russian shot putter An African runner, Caster Semenya, was named on the radio.

https://qz.com/1262941/caster-semenya-new-iaaf-rules-on-testosterone-likely-affect-star-athlete/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_Press

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Arturo

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 08:04:34 PM »
Seems there is a controversy going on in the athlectics world about whether sone of the tge seemingly female runners were born female, are just females with naturally high testosterone or are dosing on the stuff. Obvious problems about invasive genetic testing not being looked at with favour.

One suggestion was that such females could run with men, since their times are equal to those of men - well above most women. Perhaps it is time that all runners were entered into races according to their times and not their gender? Competing on equivalent ability?

OK, there is the obvious problem there that "normal" women would never get a medal. So classify the runners in close ability groups (as in the paralympics) and medalise the winners in each class? Still open to abuse by those who will run a little slower to get into a lower class, then speed up in the final (similar to paralympists allegedly faking their disability to get into a lower class.)

From some tests that have been done, I'm told, that men and women have the same capacity for physical ability since the DNA and structure are almost entirely the same. But this may have been just for muscle building since that is what I am more geared towards caring about. It could be entirely possible that they are dosing T but men have naturally higher T than girls, and anybody in competition is doing that stuff anyway. But I don't think they are freaks just come out of no where. Suddenly a bunch of outliers fly out of the bag and into the fridge? Something doesn't seem right.

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Icarus

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 12:25:15 AM »
Dave, females do not run as fast as males. not that they cannot, they just have not done so to date. Close but not equal.  Neither do they develope weight lifting capacity that equals the male contingent, nor shot put, discus throw distance, long jump, high jump, pole vault. 

That said, my high schools near and far have taken up weight lifting as a varsity sport. Some very pretty and otherwise feminine girls, of about my own weight can lift a helluva lot more than I can....or wish to, or probably ever could. 

One thing I can say for certain is that female athletes are every bit as tough and durable and damned well determined as any of their their male counterparts. I was for many years involved in serious women's sports on a national scope..  I learned to have the highest regard for the female athletes who play when hurt, and fight just as hard or even harder because they have something to prove and they do prove it.

Strength...maybe not quite....determianation?.... there is no doubt.

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 12:49:40 AM »
Dave, females do not run as fast as males. not that they cannot, they just have not done so to date. Close but not equal.  Neither do they develope weight lifting capacity that equals the male contingent, nor shot put, discus throw distance, long jump, high jump, pole vault. 

That said, my high schools near and far have taken up weight lifting as a varsity sport. Some very pretty and otherwise feminine girls, of about my own weight can lift a helluva lot more than I can....or wish to, or probably ever could. 

One thing I can say for certain is that female athletes are every bit as tough and durable and damned well determined as any of their their male counterparts. I was for many years involved in serious women's sports on a national scope..  I learned to have the highest regard for the female athletes who play when hurt, and fight just as hard or even harder because they have something to prove and they do prove it.

Strength...maybe not quite....determianation?.... there is no doubt.

I wanted to stay away from running but lifting can definitely be argued. Just that society has raised women to be one way, and men to be a different way. So that we may all have the same capacity for lifting performance (as far as weight is concerned) but we just do not achieve it because boys are supposed to do that.

Off topic but I think I see that pattern repeating itself despite every urge to stop it. "Men leave women to do the heavy lifting" Then people raise their boys to be more stoic and harder workers...more manly...and then they run off, because they need a break(?)

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be another movement to depower others and claim that power for their own. Not just in men to women, but from race to race and class to class.

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Davin

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 03:23:06 PM »
There is good science to show that there are gender differences in physical ability. I concede that there might be a small chance that it will show out that there is no difference. I don't think that the difference matters all that much though. Especially not with normal people, because there is also good science that shows that women develop muscle and endurance well when they work on it. I think there is a difference, but I think that the difference is much smaller than most people think. Strength studies show that muscle mass, no matter which gender, is the best indicator of strength. So a woman with the same muscle mass as a man are going to be about as strong as each other. So the difference is more in the building of muscle than the having of muscle.

There is also the problem of trials and support. I think the difference in where women and men are presently is part societies fault in who are encouraged to fill certain roles.

Nearly 100% of all males when they are growing up are tested for physical ability, pitted against their friends, starting sports early, and we see who develops skill and physical prowess. This is encouraged play, trying out all kinds of sports... etc. Even in males I think that "failures" are discouraged too early without attempting different training techniques that may work better for them.

However females are rarely encouraged to go through the same trials, and the ones that self select aren't that big of a percentage of a population either. I would say generously that 70% of the female population is tested for physical prowess and ability.

That means that there is a near 100% chance (excluding the possibility of poor training techniques), of finding the best of the best of male athletes, and only a 70% chance of finding the best of the best of female athletes. And I think that until we are checking females at the same rate as the males we can't just point to where women and men are currently in terms of straight up ability stats for what the gender differences are. There are some studies that show that women do better than men in muscles growth and recovery when they start later in life (starting in their 30s to 50s), not overall strength, but strength increases. I think that shows that women have untapped potential, but we are a long way from finding out how much potential there actually is.

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 03:47:57 PM »
Some good arguments there, Davin.

In terms of performance and women running alongside men my thought was all those with a similar ability profile run together, regardless of gender. There may have to be a "seed" rating on their overall continuing performance over the year; then they compete equally in the same races at the major events at least.
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Davin

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 05:01:37 PM »
I would also add that with females, they are generally discouraged, whether they self select or not. And it takes a lot to overcome almost everyone being against you, so I think that hurts the numbers for women even more. No matter how good a woman is at sports, there is going to be a significant portion of the population (not just men, but some women discourage other women too), that will actively try to discourage her from even playing sports. With male athletes, while they may be disliked and find people against them, there is much less "you shouldn't even be playing sports" than there is for women.

Of course these are not absolutes, and there are definitely some male and female athletes that break from the average, but I think that the data shows out in aggregate.

In terms of performance and women running alongside men my thought was all those with a similar ability profile run together, regardless of gender. There may have to be a "seed" rating on their overall continuing performance over the year; then they compete equally in the same races at the major events at least.
Kind of like in boxing with weight classes?

I worry that rating a runner by their times and then lumping them together according to those times. Competition, while I don't think it's a great tool for all areas like some do, is effective in competitive sports to bring out the best in ones abilities, and I would worry that that kind of rating thing would hurt competition more than help. I don't think it would prevent moving up, but I think it would create some harder to pass barriers for both men and women.

But I'm willing to try something new instead of sticking with the same old, same old. My worries are often found out to be unwarranted.

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2018, 05:13:22 PM »
Quote
Kind of like in boxing with weight classes?

Aw, c'mon Davin, there is absolutely no comparison between a man and a woman running parallel race and a mixed pair slugging it out!

Hmm, in some of the more "acrobatic" martial arts betcha there are women who would give a man a good fight!
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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2018, 06:11:49 PM »
Quote
Kind of like in boxing with weight classes?

Aw, c'mon Davin, there is absolutely no comparison between a man and a woman running parallel race and a mixed pair slugging it out!

Hmm, in some of the more "acrobatic" martial arts betcha there are women who would give a man a good fight!

There really is no difference if they aren't going head. They aren't fighting each other. And in fighting people change weights all the time. I see no problem with pitting men against women in a foot race.

Quote
Hmm, in some of the more "acrobatic" martial arts betcha there are women who would give a man a good fight!
I'm not sure society would be okay with a man hitting a woman. Especially if he wins.

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 06:15:16 PM »
There is good science to show that there are gender differences in physical ability. I concede that there might be a small chance that it will show out that there is no difference. I don't think that the difference matters all that much though. Especially not with normal people, because there is also good science that shows that women develop muscle and endurance well when they work on it. I think there is a difference, but I think that the difference is much smaller than most people think. Strength studies show that muscle mass, no matter which gender, is the best indicator of strength. So a woman with the same muscle mass as a man are going to be about as strong as each other. So the difference is more in the building of muscle than the having of muscle.

There is also the problem of trials and support. I think the difference in where women and men are presently is part societies fault in who are encouraged to fill certain roles.

Nearly 100% of all males when they are growing up are tested for physical ability, pitted against their friends, starting sports early, and we see who develops skill and physical prowess. This is encouraged play, trying out all kinds of sports... etc. Even in males I think that "failures" are discouraged too early without attempting different training techniques that may work better for them.

However females are rarely encouraged to go through the same trials, and the ones that self select aren't that big of a percentage of a population either. I would say generously that 70% of the female population is tested for physical prowess and ability.

That means that there is a near 100% chance (excluding the possibility of poor training techniques), of finding the best of the best of male athletes, and only a 70% chance of finding the best of the best of female athletes. And I think that until we are checking females at the same rate as the males we can't just point to where women and men are currently in terms of straight up ability stats for what the gender differences are. There are some studies that show that women do better than men in muscles growth and recovery when they start later in life (starting in their 30s to 50s), not overall strength, but strength increases. I think that shows that women have untapped potential, but we are a long way from finding out how much potential there actually is.

You pretty much repeated everything I said in more words.

The studies are mixed. But the potential for muscle growth has been shown to be equal in men and women. But the way society raises boys and girls are different so men get a head start. And the way development works is kind of like a stack. If you keep healthy for long enough you can push beyond those barriers eventually. Just as well if you discontinue for some reason your gains are easier to come back than if you were to start from scratch.

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Dave

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Re: Man? Woman?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 07:01:47 PM »
Quote
Kind of like in boxing with weight classes?

Aw, c'mon Davin, there is absolutely no comparison between a man and a woman running parallel race and a mixed pair slugging it out!

Hmm, in some of the more "acrobatic" martial arts betcha there are women who would give a man a good fight!

There really is no difference if they aren't going head. They aren't fighting each other. And in fighting people change weights all the time. I see no problem with pitting men against women in a foot race.

Quote
Hmm, in some of the more "acrobatic" martial arts betcha there are women who would give a man a good fight!
I'm not sure society would be okay with a man hitting a woman. Especially if he wins.

Perhaps the saying, "You wanna join the club you gotta take the lumps" applies? Any woman that wishes to compete, in any way, with men on an equal footing has to take equal punishment - unless they can get the rules changed. Er, martial arts without violence is just ballet dancing!
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