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Court

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« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2006, 12:10:48 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
Some people don't consider hating others because of the color of their skin as immoral.  Whether we see it as wrong or right subjectively is dangerous ground to stand on in the right or wrong game.  Immorality doesn't always equal dangerous, in fact it most often doesn't.

So, how do you decide what thoughts to entertain and which to "control" if immorality is so subjective?

Edit: And, no, I can't think of an immoral act that isn't preceded by thought. But, again, my experiences would be limited to my thoughts and acts, and I haven't acted in ways I thought immoral very often at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
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try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

iplaw

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« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2006, 12:19:36 PM »
Morality is not subjective nor do I think it should be left up to individuals to decide what acts are and are not immoral based upon personal opinion or societal consensus.  I think you misunderstand my position.  For me, I think Christ was particularly descriptive about what acts are considered immoral and not, adultery, cheating, stealing, hate, etc.....others I think are not so important if not mentioned directly.  Remember what I said earlier that not all acts can be categorized as evil or good, many are ambiguous, and Christ dealt with the important ones which imply a distinction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by iplaw »

Big Mac

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« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2006, 12:33:40 PM »
Okay great, you have Christ. However you cannot impose your will onto others by saying we are immoral for not following such stringent and dated ideas. What is so immoral about looking at a woman lustfully? It's not as if you actually went through and assaulted her.

And so what if you cheat at taxes? That's like robbing a thief, it kind of negates any kind of morality since the "victim" isn't exactly an innocent person or entity.

Christ dealt with the idea that he was the Son of God, which is ludicrous.  Christ also claims to have stayed in the desert for 40 days and nights without any food or water. Another claim that is patently retarded. Morality is indeed subjective. What one group considers immoral (drinking among muslms) another group may see as a good time (europeans on drinking and soccer). It's usually about what helps maintain order as a whole.

By the way, you really got me with the kettle one. Technically you just admitted (indirectly) that your comment was creepy.

Also, by not responding or even attempting to counter my claim you technically are conceding to it. Look at that, I didn't even need Law School to do that.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 12:42:30 PM by Big Mac »
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iplaw

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« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2006, 12:38:17 PM »
Quote
Edit: And, no, I can't think of an immoral act that isn't preceded by thought. But, again, my experiences would be limited to my thoughts and acts, and I haven't acted in ways I thought immoral very often at all.

I think you have a problem coming up with something because they don't exist, but if you do, I am willing to talk about it.  You have proved me wrong more than once.

Big Mac.  You're a bomb thrower.  I have said before that I ignore rants and that I was ignoring you and have failed to exercise both, but no longer.  Find someone else who you can taggalong with and annoy.  Goodbye.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 01:06:00 PM by iplaw »

Court

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« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2006, 01:02:14 PM »
I have to say, though, that I have never done an "immoral" act on which I thought about much.
When I do lie (which isn't very often, because I'm a terrible liar and everyone can tell), it's always instinctive and barely preceded by thought. When I do actually entertain the thought of lying, planning it out, I usually don't go through with it. That's one of the reasons I almost never call in sick to work. I have to think about it, come up with an excuse, and dwell on it a bit. Almost always, I just end up getting out of bed and going to work because I feel guilty that others are going to have to pick up the slack because I'm not there.
I've never cheated on anyone, but I've had thoughts about it.
I've never stolen anything, although I've had thoughts about that, as well.

I'm not sure where I'm going with that, I just thought it was interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

Court

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« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2006, 01:04:24 PM »
I do think morality has to evolve with civilizations. It's an individual and societal thing, not a god thing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

Big Mac

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« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2006, 01:06:55 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
Big Mac.  You're a bomb thrower.  I have said before that I ignore rants and that I was ignoring you and have failed to exercise that but no longer.


Flattery will get you nowhere, old man.

You'll respond, they always respond.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Big Mac »
Quote from: "PoopShoot"
And what if pigs shit candy?

iplaw

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« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2006, 01:12:34 PM »
Quote
I do think morality has to evolve with civilizations. It's an individual and societal thing, not a god thing.

This topic deserves its own thread, but I'm not interested in debating it.  Too many brilliant people have debated the idea of the objective/subjective nature of ethics for thousands of years and I doubt I have anything meaningful to add beyond what has already been said throught the ages.  Obviously I wouldn't expect you to see it as a god thing anymore than you would expect me to see it any other way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by iplaw »

Court

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« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2006, 01:31:20 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
Quote
I do think morality has to evolve with civilizations. It's an individual and societal thing, not a god thing.
This topic deserves its own thread, but I'm not interested in debating it.  Too many brilliant people have debated the idea of the objective/subjective nature of ethics for thousands of years and I doubt I have anything meaningful to add beyond what has already been said throught the ages.  Obviously I wouldn't expect you to see it as a god thing anymore than you would expect me to see it any other way.


Oh, I don't intend on arguing it, either. Nor do I expect you to see it as a non-god thing. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

Asmodean Prime

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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2006, 02:28:44 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
Interesting to read some of the responses from over the weekend.  First I want to say that after much afterthought, attempting to have a discussion on this topic was probably an exercise in futility on my part.  

This discussion probably would have been more fruitful if the topic of religion would have never been interjected so early on.  I feel that the introduction of my personal christiocentric viewpoint muddied the waters.

I think the discussion would have gone in a different direction entirely had religion not been brought up.  I assume most here are biased against religion prima facie, so even simple points that may have been conceded to on both sides were argued just because they were tied to a religious argument.  I.E. People were even having a hard time agreeing with a statement as simple as "Ideas preceded action," but when asked to give examples of situations where this doesn't apply I was ignored.

I think the topic was partially/correctly restated as "thought crimes."  Fundamentally, where is the only place to stop behavior before it manifests itself physically?  The only place is in the mind.  Period.  

Tell me where I am wrong here:

1.  No one cheats on a spouse without thinking about cheating first.
2.  Thoughts always precede the action.
3.  Stopping the action therefore requires a modification of thought.

It doesn't matter that some thoughts never generate cheating, but it does matter that ALL cheating started with thougths of cheating.  

Someone earlier made the rediculous argument that if you are thinking about cheating maybe you should nurture those thoughts because it means you possibly aren't sexually interested in your partner any longer and you should move on.  That absolves 100% of mid-life men who leave their wives and children to chase that young thing in the office because they just aren't interested in the old thing at home anymore.  If women believe this crap then they deserve what they get.

The only question left is whether you incubate thougths which make cheating more likely or less likely, the decision is ours to make, but let's not be so naive to think that sitting and dwelling on sexual ideas about other people make us less likely or ambivolent to cheating.


I agree with you 100%, iplaw
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Anonymous »