Author Topic:  (Read 1436 times)

Court

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 456
(No subject)
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2006, 02:48:57 PM »
Quote from: "MommaSquid"
Maybe we should split this topic again.

Probably, but I'm running out of ideas for titles...

I told my boyfriend that I was told I have a mechanical, unpleasant position on relationships and he laughed. :D
Usually, I get labeled cynical and bitter, so I don't find it too unsurprising, I guess.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

Big Mac

  • Buddies With Uncle Bert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
(No subject)
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2006, 03:54:10 PM »
Hey don't feel bad Court, I find the cynical and bitter title on you kind of hot.

To me there's nothing more mechanical than following some stupid movie formula where you HAVE to get this and that in order for the woman to be with you. It's kind of retarded nowadays but some people enjoy it so hey, whatever.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
Quote from: "PoopShoot"
And what if pigs shit candy?

Whitney

  • Administrator
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7358
  • Gender: Female
  • Mysteriously Absent - Like God
    • http://fellowshipoffreethought.org
(No subject)
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2006, 04:24:51 PM »
I don't find Court's view of romance mechanical or unpleasant.

In my view, a mechanical approach to romance would only be doing things for the other person because it's a holiday or you're trying to follow some cinematic view of romance.  Actions done out of perceived obligation are more mechanical than a couple expressing romance in a way that works best for them.  It's the little everyday things that matter, not if the guy can remember flowers on holidays or buys jewelry for anniversaries.  What most view as romantic means absolutely nothing if there isn't any thought behind the action.

Couples should just do what is best for them, in some cases this includes the sharing of fantasies which other couples may view as relationship thought crimes (hence the thread title).
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

Court

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 456
(No subject)
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2006, 04:59:28 PM »
Quote from: "Big Mac"
Hey don't feel bad Court, I find the cynical and bitter title on you kind of hot.
Gee, thanks. :D

Quote from: "Big Mac"
To me there's nothing more mechanical than following some stupid movie formula where you HAVE to get this and that in order for the woman to be with you. It's kind of retarded nowadays but some people enjoy it so hey, whatever.


Exactly. I'm glad I'm not alone on this.

I think that "thought crimes" are simply something invented by jealousy. Jealousy is one of the most useless emotions on the planet. I have experienced it, but I have never voiced any concerns, because I think it merely reflects self-doubt, insecurity, and a lack of trust. Which is exactly what I think is behind the idea that thinking about cheating is equivalent to actually cheating. But, then again, the bible authors sound like they would get jealous pretty easily.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

Big Mac

  • Buddies With Uncle Bert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
(No subject)
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2006, 05:05:42 PM »
Jealousy just seems like a parasite to me. The point of getting jealous makes no sense. Besides, "God" is jealous, you really wanna be like that dickhead?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
Quote from: "PoopShoot"
And what if pigs shit candy?

Court

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 456
(No subject)
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2006, 05:07:56 PM »
Quote from: "Big Mac"
Jealousy just seems like a parasite to me. The point of getting jealous makes no sense. Besides, "God" is jealous, you really wanna be like that dickhead?


Fabulous point.  :lol:
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

iplaw

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 322
(No subject)
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2006, 05:26:07 PM »
Interesting to read some of the responses from over the weekend.  First I want to say that after much afterthought, attempting to have a discussion on this topic was probably an exercise in futility on my part.  

This discussion probably would have been more fruitful if the topic of religion would have never been interjected so early on.  I feel that the introduction of my personal christiocentric viewpoint muddied the waters.

I think the discussion would have gone in a different direction entirely had religion not been brought up.  I assume most here are biased against religion prima facie, so even simple points that may have been conceded to on both sides were argued just because they were tied to a religious argument.  I.E. People were even having a hard time agreeing with a statement as simple as "Ideas preceded action," but when asked to give examples of situations where this doesn't apply I was ignored.

I think the topic was partially/correctly restated as "thought crimes."  Fundamentally, where is the only place to stop behavior before it manifests itself physically?  The only place is in the mind.  Period.  

Tell me where I am wrong here:

1.  No one cheats on a spouse without thinking about cheating first.
2.  Thoughts always precede the action.
3.  Stopping the action therefore requires a modification of thought.

It doesn't matter that some thoughts never generate cheating, but it does matter that ALL cheating started with thougths of cheating.  

Someone earlier made the rediculous argument that if you are thinking about cheating maybe you should nurture those thoughts because it means you possibly aren't sexually interested in your partner any longer and you should move on.  That absolves 100% of mid-life men who leave their wives and children to chase that young thing in the office because they just aren't interested in the old thing at home anymore.  If women believe this crap then they deserve what they get.

The only question left is whether you incubate thougths which make cheating more likely or less likely, the decision is ours to make, but let's not be so naive to think that sitting and dwelling on sexual ideas about other people make us less likely or ambivolent to cheating.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by iplaw »

iplaw

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 322
(No subject)
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2006, 05:40:23 PM »
Quote
The point of getting jealous makes no sense.

Every emotion has a function and can be utilized for healty purposes, jealousy is not different.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by iplaw »

Big Mac

  • Buddies With Uncle Bert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
(No subject)
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2006, 05:45:54 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
Quote
The point of getting jealous makes no sense.
Every emotion has a function and can be utilized for healty purposes, jealousy is not different.


Jealousy is just irrational anger, resentment, and bitterness. Those emotions are not exactly what you want to constantly have around.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
Quote from: "PoopShoot"
And what if pigs shit candy?

Whitney

  • Administrator
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7358
  • Gender: Female
  • Mysteriously Absent - Like God
    • http://fellowshipoffreethought.org
(No subject)
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2006, 05:50:30 PM »
I agree that thought precedes action.  I think there are cases where those thoughts would fall under temporary insanity (not something that can be related to acting on thoughts related to cheating though...well, unless a person catches a spouse cheating), but are still thoughts.  Especially related to relationships, it's kinda hard to cheat if you haven't already knowingly put yourself in a situation to make it possible.  Even if a person had too much to drink they should already know if they have a tendency to go home with other people while drunk, before placing themselves in a situation where that could occur.

The extent to which thinking about something leads to action is entirely dependent on the individual.  Those who know they have a hard time not acting on their thoughts should take care to control their thoughts.  Those who know they won't act on inappropriate thoughts have no need to worry about having such thoughts.

I think that if an individual has constant thoughts about cheating that would be a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with the relationship.  In that case the person should evaluate why they have those thoughts so frequently to decide if they should seek couples counseling.  Personally, I've noticed I only have those thoughts when the relationship is going downhill...it's my subconscious trying to let me know that something is wrong or needs to change (I think this is kinda what Court was talking about before when she said it was better to acknowledge such thoughts rather than suppress them)
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

iplaw

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 322
(No subject)
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2006, 05:54:52 PM »
What you describe is the misuse of the emotion.  Jealousy could as easily be descibed as an emotion that can create spousal intimacy and fidelity.  If someone showed an interest in my wife, jealousy triggers the opportunity for me to be attuned to her needs and motivates me to be a better husband.

Love is the supreme ethic and a wonderful emotion if used properly, but its misuse can be equally destructive.  A parent who refuses to discipline a child because they love them too much to offend them runs the risk of destroying them because they end up creating self-centered children with no understanding of social responisbility.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by iplaw »

Court

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 456
(No subject)
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2006, 05:55:39 PM »
Quote from: "laetusatheos"
 Personally, I've noticed I only have those thoughts when the relationship is going downhill...it's my subconscious trying to let me know that something is wrong or needs to change (I think this is kinda what Court was talking about before when she said it was better to acknowledge such thoughts rather than suppress them)


That is exactly what I meant. I don't think about cheating unless there's a reason, so I know that when I have thoughts about it, even if they seem harmless and innocent, I need to re-evaluate the relationship in which I'm involved.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Court »
[size=92]
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas
[/size]
[size=92]
try having a little faith = stop using your brain for a while -- ziffel[/size]

iplaw

  • Not Sure About That Kool-Aid
  • **
  • Posts: 322
(No subject)
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2006, 06:02:13 PM »
Quote
The extent to which thinking about something leads to action is entirely dependent on the individual. Those who know they have a hard time not acting on their thoughts should take care to control their thoughts. Those who know they won't act on inappropriate thoughts have no need to worry about having such thoughts.
I agree with you.  Most up to this point have ridiculed the idea of thought control as something archaic.  It then comes down to whether you "think" you can handle it, which is why I said it's like russian roulette after you have established that the thought is what initiates the action.

Quote
Personally, I've noticed I only have those thoughts when the relationship is going downhill...it's my subconscious trying to let me know that something is wrong or needs to change (I think this is kinda what Court was talking about before when she said it was better to acknowledge such thoughts rather than suppress them)

This is nice in theory but ignores my entire argument about men who go through mid life crisis.  Simply allowing men this out because there must be something wrong in the marriage is inhumane for the spouse.  We could go through each instance and argument and all would die the death of a thousand qualifications, so it comes down to whether you are will to gamble or not.
Also, in passing I find it interesting that most here responding have been females.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 06:07:34 PM by iplaw »

Big Mac

  • Buddies With Uncle Bert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
(No subject)
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2006, 06:04:50 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
What you describe is the misuse of the emotion.  Jealousy could as easily be descibed as an emotion that can create spousal intimacy and fidelity.  If someone showed an interest in my wife, jealousy triggers the opportunity for me to be attuned to her needs and motivates me to be a better husband.

Love is the supreme ethic and a wonderful emotion if used properly, but its misuse can be equally destructive.  A parent who refuses to discipline a child because they love them too much to offend them runs the risk of destroying them because they end up creating self-centered children with no understanding of social responisbility.


No what you just described is your own insecurity and mistrust regarding your spouse. I'd be flattered someone took an interest in my partner. However I would trust they are strong enough to ignore such advances and I would recognize the fact that I have an attractive partner. Kind of like being hit on by a gay guy. I'd be flattered but I wouldn't get all insecure and pissed off.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
Quote from: "PoopShoot"
And what if pigs shit candy?

Whitney

  • Administrator
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7358
  • Gender: Female
  • Mysteriously Absent - Like God
    • http://fellowshipoffreethought.org
(No subject)
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2006, 06:31:28 PM »
Quote from: "iplaw"
This is nice in theory but ignores my entire argument about men who go through mid life crisis.  Simply allowing men this out because there must be something wrong in the marriage is inhumane for the spouse.  We could go through each instance and argument and all would die the death of a thousand qualifications, so it comes down to whether you are will to gamble or not.
Also, in passing I find it interesting that most here responding have been females.

A person at the age where a mid life crisis could be involved should add that into their evaluation when deciding why they are having thoughts of cheating.  Plus, I never said it was an out, just a reason to re-evaluate the relationship.  Re-evaluating the relationship includes looking at the self and why thoughts towards the relationship have changed.  Anyone who has a halfway decent understanding of their own thoughts should be able to figure out what is wrong...even if it is just a crisis of their own rather than one related to the relationship.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can figure out when the person I'm with is having problems even if he doesn't even hint at them knowingly.  If this is true for everyone, it is far better to acknowledge the problems and discuss them openly than for both partners to suffer because one is burying an issue to spare the other's feelings.  Even if the issue is more personal than related to the relationship, it would still be better to get it out there in the open and have support in working through those feelings.

edit:  I think it may be helpful for me to point out that I don't think someone having thoughts of cheating is necessarily an indicator that something is wrong in the relationship...just that for me, as an individual, it has a track record for being the first sign of a relationship heading south (the guy is becoming controlling etc) and I've tried to discuss those issues with the person prior to thinking of ending the relationship.  I think there is also a difference between fantasy based thoughts (like those about brad pitt or some other sex symbol) and those towards the general desire to cheat.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »