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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Jose AR on December 10, 2011, 01:08:05 PM

Title: Tired of being negative
Post by: Jose AR on December 10, 2011, 01:08:05 PM
So I'm tired of being against stuff. I'm an a-theist, I'm against religion, irrationality, mental submission, monotheism, etc. I know I am for things (humanism, free speech, reason, etc) and I know that I, as an atheist, am in the "default" of non believing.

I feel like am man living in a world where everyone has a broken leg and needs a crutch to walk except for me. Am I an anticrutch? No, I am normal!

We (culture) have had this crutch for so long that we don't have a word for 'no crutch'.

I want a word that expresses my "default" normalcy.

Jose AR
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Asmodean on December 10, 2011, 01:17:41 PM
So I'm tired of being against stuff. I'm an a-theist, I'm against religion, irrationality, mental submission, monotheism, etc. I know I am for things (humanism, free speech, reason, etc) and I know that I, as an atheist, am in the "default" of non believing.
So what is wrong with turning the tables?

Express the things you are against in terms of things you are for, and problem solved, no?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on December 10, 2011, 01:19:48 PM
Naturalist.

It encompases all of reality and allows one to explore that reality without any superstitions weighing one down. It acknowledges our evolutionary past and the drives that we have, caused by our evolution. It focuses on our inclusion in the universe around us and that we are a part of the natural world, not the supernatural world. It reveals our heritage, faults and our obligations to the natural world around us.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 10, 2011, 04:19:08 PM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on December 10, 2011, 04:21:35 PM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.
Yes! There is the possibility of a missread there  ;D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Whitney on December 10, 2011, 04:31:01 PM
I self identify mainly as freethinker with atheist simply being a byproduct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought

And I agree with the comment that "atheist" in the forum title is part of the reason it attracts people.  Happy Freethinker or Happy Secularist isn't as much of a statement phrase.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Cecilie on December 10, 2011, 04:37:59 PM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.
Yes! There is the possibility of a missread there  ;D
Not that Tank would mind. :P
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on December 10, 2011, 05:07:35 PM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.
Yes! There is the possibility of a missread there  ;D
Not that Tank would mind. :P
:o young lady. The very thought of it  ;D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 10, 2011, 07:15:42 PM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.
Yes! There is the possibility of a missread there  ;D
Not that Tank would mind. :P
:o young lady. The very thought of it  ;D

Imagine the personal photos people would post then.

Anyway, back to the original topic.  Secular humanist would work too.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 10, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
Modernist.

Might seem odd at first, but consider how anachronistic it is to be Christian, Muslim, Orthodox Jew, etc.



Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Fi on December 11, 2011, 06:06:51 AM
I identify as secular humanist when I don't want to scare people with the word "atheist." It carries a bit less of that negative weight. And it implies standing for certain principles rather than standing against something else.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
I identify as secular humanist when I don't want to scare people with the word "atheist." It carries a bit less of that negative weight. And it implies standing for certain principles rather than standing against something else.

That's a good point, maybe I should use 'secular humanist' more often. ::)
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 12, 2011, 02:18:39 AM
The trouble I have with self-identifying as a humanist is the same as some 20th century philosophers had with self-identifying as an existentialist; I.e., "If I say I'm that, then I imply I agree with what those guys over there are saying, since apparently they're that too."

I'd rather self-identify as Newtonian: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8834.0
 
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: MadBomr101 on December 12, 2011, 06:29:19 AM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

I'd take one look at that and think I'd landed at some weird, online nudist colony.   :o
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 10:43:39 AM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

I'd take one look at that and think I'd landed at some weird, online nudist colony.   :o
nothing wrong with that, I could happily join a 'happy naturist forum'!
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sgtmackenzie on December 21, 2011, 03:29:30 AM
yeah, naturalist would be good, although I wonder who'd arrivie at the forum though if we renamed it 'happy naturalist forum'!

It's a good original question Jose, I get fed up of religious people claiming that atheism is just a belief and a religion like any other, unwilling to accept it is just not believing in deities, and it is the default position. None of us are born believing anything.

It is not that atheism is a religion, but whenever atheists gather they form a tribe.   They all share the same "beliefs"? "anti-beliefs"? "non-belief"? and it gets labeled as negativity by those with ideas that they are opposed to, especially when some atheists are militant in the defense of their non-position.

To the tribe of the happy naturalists!   The most intellectually honest bunch of them all.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Traveler on December 23, 2011, 11:47:34 PM
I'm willing to claim a number of labels, depending on who I'm talking to.

Atheist when in a safe place. Agnostic atheist when I want to be more specific. I don't remember seeing the Apatheist definition before, but I like it. That's probably the most accurate definition of what I DON"T believe in.

When I want a more positive statement of what I DO believe in, I most often use secular humanist. I occasionally use freethinker. And more often than not, I use person, woman, artist, quiltmaker, or something that's not related to religion at all. Because, afterall, if I weren't so drastically outnumbered in my country by religious folks, I probably wouldn't think about religion at all except as a sometimes quaint mythology.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Guardian85 on December 30, 2011, 07:49:45 PM
Secularist, humanist, freethinker...all good.
Personally I prefer rationalist, realist, or just plain awesome! ;D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 31, 2011, 01:44:54 AM
There's also Penn Jillette's "Brights", tho I can't bring myself to use that one.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 31, 2011, 01:46:14 AM
Lately the absurdity of serious religion has really hit home for me.  That Christian Morality blog with its rant about The Hobbit was the last straw.  We need more parody religions.  The Pastafarians and the Discordians have the right idea.  So now I self-identify as Logic Elfian, except, from now on, when Xmas rolls around, when I'll be switching to Uncanniness, because Professor X sees me when I'm sleeping, he knows when I'm awake, he knows if I've been bad or good - he's a telepath, for goodness sake.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: BullyforBronto on December 31, 2011, 02:27:40 AM
So I'm tired of being against stuff. I'm an a-theist, I'm against religion, irrationality, mental submission, monotheism, etc. I know I am for things (humanism, free speech, reason, etc) and I know that I, as an atheist, am in the "default" of non believing.

I feel like am man living in a world where everyone has a broken leg and needs a crutch to walk except for me. Am I an anticrutch? No, I am normal!

We (culture) have had this crutch for so long that we don't have a word for 'no crutch'.

I want a word that expresses my "default" normalcy.

Jose AR

What I am for: science, inquiry into epistemology and ontology, post modern philosophy, linguistics, literature, literary theory, skateboarding, music...ad infinitum.

I don't think I need an all encompassing term that expresses my beliefs or interests. It just seems so limiting. But, if I had to pick one, I think "dude"* will suffice. I'm just one dude trying to make it in this crazy, mixed up world.

* If "dude" is too gender specific, maybe "human" will do. Alternatively, if you're OK with "dude," "chick" can be substituted if you are, say, a "chick."**

** Sorry, it's Friday night, the kids are asleep, and I'm about four tumblers deep into some prime Canadian whiskey.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Asmodean on December 31, 2011, 03:01:07 AM
We need more parody religions.

Hmm... Asmodeanism, methink. Because The Asmo needs his own personal cult dedicated to... Well, The Asmo.  :D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 31, 2011, 03:33:09 AM
Hmm... Asmodeanism, methink. Because The Asmo needs his own personal cult dedicated to... Well, The Asmo.  :D

You already had one of those, and if you don't now it's your own fault.
I told you to only eat the old unproductive followers, but you didn't listen. You ate all the young ones we could have sent out to recruit new devotees.

If people are becoming tired being negative they probably need more practice.
You just have to learn how to conserve your energy, some times a good "errr, graaaa fnerf" is as effective as a vigorous rant.  You don't even have to say it clearly or open your mouth much, with a little practice you can do it all day.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Asmodean on December 31, 2011, 03:45:17 AM
You already had one of those, and if you don't now it's your own fault.
I told you to only eat the old unproductive followers, but you didn't listen. You ate all the young ones we could have sent out to recruit new devotees.
But... But...  :(

The old ones were so... Chewy.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 03, 2012, 03:04:07 AM
It's sad, but there really seems to be a lot of negativity associated with the word 'atheist.'
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: MadBomr101 on January 03, 2012, 03:43:27 AM
It's sad, but there really seems to be a lot of negativity associated with the word 'atheist.'

And that's entirely the result of theist ignorance and intolerance.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 03, 2012, 04:03:50 PM
It's sad, but there really seems to be a lot of negativity associated with the word 'atheist.'

And that's entirely the result of theist ignorance and intolerance.

They just don't understand someone who is truly happy without worshipping the invisible giant.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Stevil on January 03, 2012, 07:28:28 PM
We need more parody religions.

Hmm... Asmodeanism, methink. Because The Asmo needs his own personal cult dedicated to... Well, The Asmo.  :D
My kids currently worship playdo, when they get a bit older they might progress to clay.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 03, 2012, 09:13:44 PM
And that's entirely the result of theist ignorance and intolerance.

Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with the louder-than-HAF Atheists...but then again one need only look to a certain image thread on HAF which speaks volumes to the theist on HAF also.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Asmodean on January 03, 2012, 11:24:22 PM
My kids currently worship playdo, when they get a bit older they might progress to clay.
Yes. The Asmo shall cook up some sort of initiation ritual involving habanero chilis, rope, leather and evil while they's growing  :D

Also, there will need to be some sort of blood offerings on a pottery wheel, methink...  :D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: MadBomr101 on January 04, 2012, 01:06:27 AM
Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with the louder-than-HAF Atheists...but then again one need only look to a certain image thread on HAF which speaks volumes to the theist on HAF also.

I'm not familiar with this.  Can you point me to it?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 04, 2012, 05:20:44 AM
Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with the louder-than-HAF Atheists...but then again one need only look to a certain image thread on HAF which speaks volumes to the theist on HAF also.

I'm not familiar with this.  Can you point me to it?
Oh, I think he means the atheist image dump in laid back lounge.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 02:40:15 PM
Maybe, just maybe it has more to do with the louder-than-HAF Atheists...but then again one need only look to a certain image thread on HAF which speaks volumes to the theist on HAF also.

I'm not familiar with this.  Can you point me to it?
Oh, I think he means the atheist image dump in laid back lounge.
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:25:28 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
Or... you could just clearly express the point you intended to make. Some of us do not like to make leaps into what another person means and would rather the person just say what they mean. Or maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2012, 05:05:59 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
No need to needle people.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 05:10:56 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
Or... you could just clearly express the point you intended to make. Some of us do not like to make leaps into what another person means and would rather the person just say what they mean. Or maybe that's just me.

I didn't think it would be so difficult to get the point.  The image thread is one example of the respect the average Atheist has for the Christian beliefs.  Some things that are of importance to one person which may be held in reverence, others have no issue in stomping on.  It's bullying at the core.  No difference.  We think that if we make fun of something, it brings our own thinking to a higher position...and this is in all things.  I'm guilty of doing the same in other areas of life.  (so while I'm speaking to "you", I also am speaking to myself) It's no different.

It's similar to being home invaded by your neighbors...and them not hiding that they have such low respect for you that they flaunt the fact in your face.  They have a garage sale to sell your stuff from across the street.  They don't sell your family photo albums, but instead, take each photo out and burn them one by one as they giggle.  What harm are they doing anyway?  Just burning paper really.  It is of no REAL consequence.  But those are pictures of family that you hold near and dear.  It doesn't matter if it is irrational to feel sad over a picture of your loved ones being burned, it's the blatent disrespect your neighbors have for you.  Then the next day your neighbors act as though nothing has happened.  "Hi neighbor..." 
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 05:45:04 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
Or... you could just clearly express the point you intended to make. Some of us do not like to make leaps into what another person means and would rather the person just say what they mean. Or maybe that's just me.

I didn't think it would be so difficult to get the point.  The image thread is one example of the respect the average Atheist has for the Christian beliefs.  Some things that are of importance to one person which may be held in reverence, others have no issue in stomping on.
Because beliefs expressed publicly can be responded to publicly. There is no reason to respect something merely because a person holds it as a belief. All things posted in the image section are publicly expressed things.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
It's bullying at the core.  No difference.  We think that if we make fun of something, it brings our own thinking to a higher position...and this is in all things.
I don't think that at all, I think that making fun of something makes me laugh, that is it, I just think it's funny.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
I'm guilty of doing the same in other areas of life.  (so while I'm speaking to "you", I also am speaking to myself) It's no different.
I don't do that.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
It's similar to being home invaded by your neighbors...and them not hiding that they have such low respect for you that they flaunt the fact in your face.  They have a garage sale to sell your stuff from across the street.  They don't sell your family photo albums, but instead, take each photo out and burn them one by one as they giggle.  What harm are they doing anyway?  Just burning paper really.  It is of no REAL consequence.  But those are pictures of family that you hold near and dear.  It doesn't matter if it is irrational to feel sad over a picture of your loved ones being burned, it's the blatent disrespect your neighbors have for you.  Then the next day your neighbors act as though nothing has happened.  "Hi neighbor..."
I'm sorry... what?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 05:48:57 PM
Yes, apparently finding religious things funny is worse than people hoping the worst things happen to you for all eternity.

Some of those things I find funny too.  However if the point evades you, it's ok.
Or... you could just clearly express the point you intended to make. Some of us do not like to make leaps into what another person means and would rather the person just say what they mean. Or maybe that's just me.

I didn't think it would be so difficult to get the point.  The image thread is one example of the respect the average Atheist has for the Christian beliefs.  Some things that are of importance to one person which may be held in reverence, others have no issue in stomping on.
Because beliefs expressed publicly can be responded to publicly. There is no reason to respect something merely because a person holds it as a belief. All things posted in the image section are publicly expressed things.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
It's bullying at the core.  No difference.  We think that if we make fun of something, it brings our own thinking to a higher position...and this is in all things.
I don't think that at all, I think that making fun of something makes me laugh, that is it, I just think it's funny.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
I'm guilty of doing the same in other areas of life.  (so while I'm speaking to "you", I also am speaking to myself) It's no different.
I don't do that.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
It's similar to being home invaded by your neighbors...and them not hiding that they have such low respect for you that they flaunt the fact in your face.  They have a garage sale to sell your stuff from across the street.  They don't sell your family photo albums, but instead, take each photo out and burn them one by one as they giggle.  What harm are they doing anyway?  Just burning paper really.  It is of no REAL consequence.  But those are pictures of family that you hold near and dear.  It doesn't matter if it is irrational to feel sad over a picture of your loved ones being burned, it's the blatent disrespect your neighbors have for you.  Then the next day your neighbors act as though nothing has happened.  "Hi neighbor..."
I'm sorry... what?

Even after an explanation?  Never mind.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 05:50:21 PM
If people need to call me anything (or I need to call myself anything) I prefer Ali.  Alissa if you want to be formal or are my mom.

Beyond that, I think I like the term freethinker best of all, because I hate it when people try to tell other non-believers what is acceptable to think or do.  Some atheists (like my husband, sometimes) think that atheists shouldn't celebrate religious holidays or hold out reservations on whether or not ghosts exist, or whatever, trying to define what is acceptable dogma for a "real" atheist.  My response is a cheerful "Shove it.  The great thing about being an atheist is that I can think/celebrate/feel whatever makes sense to me."  

I find it interesting that freethinker is the term that most religious folks I have spoken to find the most objectionable.  
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 06:13:56 PM
Even after an explanation?  Never mind.

Can you at least explain how laughing at/making fun of something someone expresses publicly is similar to someone breaking into a private residence and destroying personal property?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Whitney on January 04, 2012, 06:19:32 PM
Even after an explanation?  Never mind.

Can you at least explain how laughing at/making fun of something someone expresses publicly is similar to someone breaking into a private residence and destroying personal property?

It's not the same...the only way a connection could be drawn is if we were a christian forum.

This forum has a civility rule, yes...but that doesn't mean making everyone bite their tongue because someone might be offended nor does it mean having to respect a belief system.  It's possible to be civil towards someone and even think they are a nice person without having to hold any respect for their beliefs (aside from respecting their right to have said beliefs).

Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 06:25:55 PM
Even after an explanation?  Never mind.

Can you at least explain how laughing at/making fun of something someone expresses publicly is similar to someone breaking into a private residence and destroying personal property?

I don't know what nationality you hold dear, but let me try a different route.  Take your flag.  Mine is the U.S. flag.  Let's say a person or group of persons is dragging it though mud, stomping on it, pissing on it, burning it...use your imagination on all the different ways one can defile a piece of cloth to insult the one(s) that hold that cloth/flag dear.  Is there anything wrong with this?  It is just cloth afterall.  Why would such actions of one group cause another grief over a cloth?  What worth is there in defending or even feeling the need TO defend a piece of cloth?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
It's not the same...the only way a connection could be drawn is if we were a christian forum.

This forum has a civility rule, yes...but that doesn't mean making everyone bite their tongue because someone might be offended nor does it mean having to respect a belief system.  It's possible to be civil towards someone and even think they are a nice person without having to hold any respect for their beliefs (aside from respecting their right to have said beliefs).

No, I don't mean this at all.  I refer you to the flag analogy.  I don't wish for anyone to bite their tongue because another might be offended.  My point is simply that the reason there is a stereotype of angry Atheist (I think was the original question) is that the typical Atheist, as evidenced IMHO by our Image thread here at HAF, is that the Atheist has NO respect for another persons beliefs.

It's sad, but there really seems to be a lot of negativity associated with the word 'atheist.'

And that's entirely the result of theist ignorance and intolerance.

To which was my response that it may not be ignorance, but something more substanciated...basically disrespect.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
Even after an explanation?  Never mind.

Can you at least explain how laughing at/making fun of something someone expresses publicly is similar to someone breaking into a private residence and destroying personal property?

I don't know what nationality you hold dear, but let me try a different route.  Take your flag.  Mine is the U.S. flag.  Let's say a person or group of persons is dragging it though mud, stomping on it, pissing on it, burning it...use your imagination on all the different ways one can defile a piece of cloth to insult the one(s) that hold that cloth/flag dear.  Is there anything wrong with this?  It is just cloth afterall.
I was born and raised and am still an American, I don't see anything wrong with that. But I still don't see how that is similar to finding something funny. When I make fun of a concept (religious or not), I'm not dragging anything out and burning or peeing on it or trying to do anything I can to defile it, I just express what I find funny. That is like looking up at the flag and laughing, then moving on.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
Why would such actions of one group cause another grief over a cloth?
For many different reasons.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
What worth is there in defending or even feeling the need TO defend a piece of cloth?
I have no idea.

Maybe instead of trying to analogize what your problems are, you could just say what your problems are.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 04, 2012, 07:57:54 PM
Maybe some atheists (not al) lack tolerance for religious people because our civil rights are constantly stomped on. Btw, U.S Flag analogy is meaningles to me. This country  is still runned by overly religious politicans, and only five states  are okay wirh gay marriage. That's repulsive. Even so, churches love to protest at gay military funerals and weddings.. Wow, goooo jesus followers! e__e
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 08:13:31 PM
No, I don't mean this at all.  I refer you to the flag analogy.  I don't wish for anyone to bite their tongue because another might be offended.  My point is simply that the reason there is a stereotype of angry Atheist (I think was the original question) is that the typical Atheist, as evidenced IMHO by our Image thread here at HAF, is that the Atheist has NO respect for another persons beliefs.

I don't think that you can point to atheist humor on an atheist website as definitive proof that atheists have "NO" (with a capital "N" "O") respect for another person's beliefs.

I get that we are a pretty irreverent bunch.  But trust me that I will laugh at myself when I am being silly, or another atheist when s/he is being silly as well.  I just don't have the kind of sense of humor that holds very many things "too sacred" to be played with.

But that doesn't mean that I don't respect anyone or anything.  I respect your right to believe what you believe, even though I disagree with it.  That doesn't mean that I don't find you silly.  But it's okay, because I'm silly too.

I have to think that when you venture into the territory of people who you KNOW disagree with you on something that you hold important (whatever that is) then you have to do so at your own risk.  If I went to a Christian forum, I would be remiss in getting all up in arms if there was a thread about how atheists are going to hell.  If I, as a parent, went to a website for people who are anti-kids, I would be remiss in getting up in arms about reading posts that make fun of parents.

I'm not saying that you or any other religious person shouldn't post here (heck, tha would be pretty presumptious of me, since I've been here for like a minute) I just think that it's important that you recognize that it's pretty much a given that some people on an atheist forum may indulge in a little bit of atheist humor, but that is different from us coming to "your house" and disrespecting you.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
I'm not saying that you or any other religious person shouldn't post here (heck, tha would be pretty presumptious of me, since I've been here for like a minute) I just think that it's important that you recognize that it's pretty much a given that some people on an atheist forum may indulge in a little bit of atheist humor, but that is different from us coming to "your house" and disrespecting you.

I get it.  I understand what you're saying.  I'm on foreign ground here at HAF.  I'm not attempting to dictate whether there should or shouldn't be an Image thread of the likes here.  What I'm saying is simply to answer the question of why negativity towards Atheists, I say it's reasonably well documented point what the typical Atheist feels about Christianity, the Christian and the beliefs therein.  It's not much of a stretch, IMHO, to say that's at least one reason for the negativity.

Therefore it is my opinion that one answer to why there is negativitiy towards Atheism is the negativity Atheism, or better lack of respect, Atheism does not really give the believer.  Sure, everyone says, "We respect your right to your beliefs...(cough, chuckle, chuckle, 'what an idiot', cough)"  That's my point.  
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 08:36:11 PM
Therefore it is my opinion that one answer to why there is negativitiy towards Atheism is the negativity Atheism, or better lack of respect, Atheism does not really give the believer.  Sure, everyone says, "We respect your right to your beliefs...(cough, chuckle, chuckle, 'what an idiot', cough) "  That's my point.  

But what else are you looking for?  Of course we *disagree* with your beliefs - if we agreed with them we would be Christians.  
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 09:00:34 PM
But what else are you looking for?  Of course we *disagree* with your beliefs - if we agreed with them we would be Christians.  

"Is there nothing sacred?"  To me it's like this;  Say I'm an avid hunter and you're one against hunting.  Assuming you "feel" for animals and their suffering, would you find anything "wrong" with me posting pictures of me and or others burning animals, clubbing them to death and peeling their pelts off to sell and wear as status symbols, making light of your irrational stance?  What possible wrong is there in one evolved species simply for fun torturing another just for laughs...because it's funny?  Define "cruel", "right", "wrong"...in a world that is a result of a cosmic burp?  My belief, in this scenario, is that me being superior to whatever I kill, torture, skin, eat...is my perogative being the superior species.  What reasons would you have to hold "negative" feelings for the word, "hunter".
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 09:08:00 PM
But what else are you looking for?  Of course we *disagree* with your beliefs - if we agreed with them we would be Christians.  

"Is there nothing sacred?"  To me it's like this;  Say I'm an avid hunter and you're one against hunting.  Assuming you "feel" for animals and their suffering, would you find anything "wrong" with me posting pictures of me and or others burning animals, clubbing them to death and peeling their pelts off to sell and wear as status symbols, making light of your irrational stance?  What possible wrong is there in one evolved species simply for fun torturing another just for laughs...because it's funny?  Define "cruel", "right", "wrong"...in a world that is a result of a cosmic burp?  My belief, in this scenario, is that me being superior to whatever I kill, torture, skin, eat...is my perogative being the superior species.  What reasons would you have to hold "negative" feelings for the word, "hunter".
Who is torturing or killing Christians when they make jokes about them? If someone was clubbing Christians over the head, I'd have a problem with that... someone making fun of me because I don't like to kill things, I don't care unless it's funny.

You keep making these comparisons, I just don't see the similarities... are you really saying that making fun of a religious belief is tantamount killing things?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 09:20:15 PM
But what else are you looking for?  Of course we *disagree* with your beliefs - if we agreed with them we would be Christians.  

"Is there nothing sacred?"  To me it's like this;  Say I'm an avid hunter and you're one against hunting.  Assuming you "feel" for animals and their suffering, would you find anything "wrong" with me posting pictures of me and or others burning animals, clubbing them to death and peeling their pelts off to sell and wear as status symbols, making light of your irrational stance?  What possible wrong is there in one evolved species simply for fun torturing another just for laughs...because it's funny?  Define "cruel", "right", "wrong"...in a world that is a result of a cosmic burp?  My belief, in this scenario, is that me being superior to whatever I kill, torture, skin, eat...is my perogative being the superior species.  What reasons would you have to hold "negative" feelings for the word, "hunter".

I don't mean to sound harsh, but your religious beliefs are not sacred to me.  I truly do respect your right to have them, and if there were some sort of vote "Should religious people be allowed to practice their religion?" I would stand with you in voting yes, of course you should.  But the fact that you hold them sacred will do little more than make me hold my tongue in mixed company.  They’re not sacred to me, because I don’t believe in them.  Just as, I’m sure, there are things that I hold sacred that you do not.  I am passionate about the humane treatment of animals, but if I went to some BBQ Meat Eater forum, I wouldn’t expect them to refrain from joking about vegetarians, because I understand that if they held my beliefs, they would be vegetarians, and the fact that they aren’t means that my beliefs are not automatically sacred to them. 
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 04, 2012, 09:40:04 PM
AD ;_;... No one is personally attacking you. Do you need a hug or something?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 09:41:25 PM
You keep making these comparisons, I just don't see the similarities... are you really saying that making fun of a religious belief is tantamount killing things?

No Davin.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I've tried answering this for you.  I think at least Ali understands a bit better so it would seem the problem is not with me.  Analogies are not meant to fit perfectly, nor are they meant to explain exactly, but rather to make a connection in thinking.  I tried with the flag thinking, ok...maybe he'll see that there are some people that hold the flag as a symbol of something people have died for and so it is sacred and MEANS something while simply a piece of cloth...then I tried the sanctity of life with cruelty to animals thing thinking that you might see that when one person belittles something that to another is of sacred value (either in a religious sense or in a humanitarian sense) it is not without reason to have negative feelings towards the word 'Atheist'.  
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 09:53:28 PM
I don't mean to sound harsh, but your religious beliefs are not sacred to me.  I truly do respect your right to have them, and if there were some sort of vote "Should religious people be allowed to practice their religion?" I would stand with you in voting yes, of course you should.  But the fact that you hold them sacred will do little more than make me hold my tongue in mixed company.  They’re not sacred to me, because I don’t believe in them.  Just as, I’m sure, there are things that I hold sacred that you do not.  I am passionate about the humane treatment of animals, but if I went to some BBQ Meat Eater forum, I wouldn’t expect them to refrain from joking about vegetarians, because I understand that if they held my beliefs, they would be vegetarians, and the fact that they aren’t means that my beliefs are not automatically sacred to them.

I see in "your" words that you respect my right to believe.  However it is "your" actions that speak slightly louder and therefore IMHO is reason to have negative thoughts on the word "atheist".

Is it really more respectful of my beliefs that "you" don't belittle them in front of me in person, but rather, with anonymity, feel free to do that which you wouldn't otherwise do in public (in person)?  I know you don't hold it sacred, but it is sacred to another human being.  Why do we, inclusive of me, feel the need to do this?  I guess it's a philosophical question really.

AD ;_;... No one is personally attacking you. Do you need a hug or something?

I'm not feeling personally attacked but I like hugs.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 09:58:20 PM
You keep making these comparisons, I just don't see the similarities... are you really saying that making fun of a religious belief is tantamount killing things?

No Davin.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I've tried answering this for you.  I think at least Ali understands a bit better so it would seem the problem is not with me.  Analogies are not meant to fit perfectly, nor are they meant to explain exactly, but rather to make a connection in thinking.  I tried with the flag thinking, ok...maybe he'll see that there are some people that hold the flag as a symbol of something people have died for and so it is sacred and MEANS something while simply a piece of cloth...then I tried the sanctity of life with cruelty to animals thing thinking that you might see that when one person belittles something that to another is of sacred value (either in a religious sense or in a humanitarian sense) it is not without reason to have negative feelings towards the word 'Atheist'.
Imagine someone making fun of me because I accept the theory of gravity, nothing for me to get upset over. Now imagine me comparing being made fun of for accepting the theory of gravity to someone coming over and kicking my puppy. Your comparisons make it sound like theists are severly overreacting, like an eye for a tooth.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2012, 10:00:10 PM
I was once told that one sign of maturity was that ability to laugh at oneself and really get the joke. Nothing is sacred where humour is concerned.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: superfes on January 04, 2012, 10:01:03 PM
You keep making these comparisons, I just don't see the similarities... are you really saying that making fun of a religious belief is tantamount killing things?

No Davin.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I've tried answering this for you.  I think at least Ali understands a bit better so it would seem the problem is not with me.  Analogies are not meant to fit perfectly, nor are they meant to explain exactly, but rather to make a connection in thinking.  I tried with the flag thinking, ok...maybe he'll see that there are some people that hold the flag as a symbol of something people have died for and so it is sacred and MEANS something while simply a piece of cloth...then I tried the sanctity of life with cruelty to animals thing thinking that you might see that when one person belittles something that to another is of sacred value (either in a religious sense or in a humanitarian sense) it is not without reason to have negative feelings towards the word 'Atheist'.  

AD, I think Davin is correct on this one, your analogies are somewhat strange and don't apply to people's posts on HAF, the thing is you have come over to our house, looked at the posters on our wall and told us to quit burning your pictures...

As far as the flag is concerned I was raised with respect for the flag myself, but all in all it's the personal meaning or what the representation of it means to us personally that is sacred, not the base materials themselves, and again, nobody is burning your flag to the ground (Perhaps this was a false analogy based on the false prose that this country was founded on religious principles, if that was your attempt, this is why that analogy makes little to no sense to people).

I think that your animal analogy was probably the closest you've gotten to an actual analogy, but it still is based on the premise that we have come to your hunting camp and started protesting your hobby, when in fact we're just hanging out on our back patio having a few beers and making fun of hunters.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2012, 10:02:59 PM
Why did the atheist cross the road?

He thought there might be a sidewalk on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 04, 2012, 10:16:08 PM
Yay!! :D *hugs*
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 10:23:09 PM
Imagine someone making fun of me because I accept the theory of gravity, nothing for me to get upset over. Now imagine me comparing being made fun of for accepting the theory of gravity to someone coming over and kicking my puppy. Your comparisons make it sound like theists are severly overreacting, like an eye for a tooth.

Apples and oranges, IMHO.

Is there anything in and of gravity that remotely demands (rightly or in delusionally) it be regarded as anything more than what it is?  Does gravity speak and claim anything similar to the fairytale of God?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 10:26:09 PM
Why did the atheist cross the road?

He thought there might be a sidewalk on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.

LOL

How many atheists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
12 and counting....
1 to do it, 1 to observe, 1 to repeat, to make sure it works every time, 1 to observe the second try.
1 to write a blog about it, turning it into a complicated metaphor about reality
2 to act as Poes and pretend to attack the blog from the POV of a Christian
5 to call said Poes "Stupid Sheep" in an internet Battle Royale of the Atheist Poes vs the Earnest Atheists....
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 10:28:01 PM
I was once told that one sign of maturity was that ability to laugh at oneself and really get the joke. Nothing is sacred where humour is concerned.

I think I mentioned...I've laughed at some of the posts.  One of the MORE sacreligious of them is the one of an image of Jesus on the cross with the caption, "If you're happy and you know it..."  Hilarious.  However while it does make me laugh because it is funny when you remove the God on a cross fact, it is literally making fun of an entity that a fairytale claims loves you and did this for you whether you believe it or not.  Is it funny if someone out of whatever reason, deluded or not, gives something up, something as precious as life?  Here is not to debate what "God" gave up, but the simple fact of someone dying for someone else.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
^^^  :D

Edit: at the one above AD!
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Guardian85 on January 04, 2012, 10:30:56 PM

No Davin.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I've tried answering this for you.  I think at least Ali understands a bit better so it would seem the problem is not with me.  Analogies are not meant to fit perfectly, nor are they meant to explain exactly, but rather to make a connection in thinking.  I tried with the flag thinking, ok...maybe he'll see that there are some people that hold the flag as a symbol of something people have died for and so it is sacred and MEANS something while simply a piece of cloth...then I tried the sanctity of life with cruelty to animals thing thinking that you might see that when one person belittles something that to another is of sacred value (either in a religious sense or in a humanitarian sense) it is not without reason to have negative feelings towards the word 'Atheist'. 

Is it possible that atheists are making fun of believers as a defence mechanism due to the attacks (verbal and sometimes physical) and insults that christians seem compelled to heap upon one who doesn't share their faith?

Or maybe we just find their beliefs funny?  ;D
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 04, 2012, 10:37:22 PM
I see in "your" words that you respect my right to believe.  However it is "your" actions that speak slightly louder and therefore IMHO is reason to have negative thoughts on the word "atheist".

Is it really more respectful of my beliefs that "you" don't belittle them in front of me in person, but rather, with anonymity, feel free to do that which you wouldn't otherwise do in public (in person)?  I know you don't hold it sacred, but it is sacred to another human being.  Why do we, inclusive of me, feel the need to do this?  I guess it's a philosophical question really.

But what are "my" actions really?  Where it counts (as in, what do I really believe, what would I use my vote as well as my influence to protect) I am pro-freedom of religion.  I don't have to agree with your beliefs to believe in your right to believe them.  I'm a big big fan of personal freedoms, and that includes freedom of religion, all of the way.

It's true, I wouldn't sit around telling Jesus jokes to your face (unless I knew you and knew you would appreciate them, then I totally would), not out of any nefarious atheist sneakiness, but simply because I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

In a gathering of atheists, I admit that I do feel more free to indulge in a little tongue and cheek humor about religions. It's about context, not anonymity.  I would never do such a thing on a Christian forum.  And in fairness, I really don't care if you and your Christian friends tell atheist jokes (or liberal jokes, or vegetarian jokes since I identify as all of those) but I do want you to share them with me if they are funny.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
AD, I think Davin is correct on this one, your analogies are somewhat strange and don't apply to people's posts on HAF, the thing is you have come over to our house, looked at the posters on our wall and told us to quit burning your pictures...
I have not.  What I said as my point is; is it any secret why there is negativity towards the word 'Atheism' when one looks to a thread like the image thread?  I mean, there's not much there on poking fun at anyone but Christians...with few exceptions.
Quote from: superfes
As far as the flag is concerned I was raised with respect for the flag myself, but all in all it's the personal meaning or what the representation of it means to us personally that is sacred, not the base materials themselves, and again, nobody is burning your flag to the ground (Perhaps this was a false analogy based on the false prose that this country was founded on religious principles, if that was your attempt, this is why that analogy makes little to no sense to people).
Has nothing to do on what principles this country was founded on at all.  I would challenge you to approach a U.S. vet of any war and treat their flag with any sort of disrespect.  While it's not a point of worship, it is sacred.
Quote from: superfes
I think that your animal analogy was probably the closest you've gotten to an actual analogy, but it still is based on the premise that we have come to your hunting camp and started protesting your hobby, when in fact we're just hanging out on our back patio having a few beers and making fun of hunters.
I have no thinking that "you" have come to my camp to protest my hobby...I think I've made that clear a few times.

Yay!! :D *hugs*

Thanks.  A hug back at you and all.  
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 10:54:04 PM
But what are "my" actions really?  Where it counts (as in, what do I really believe, what would I use my vote as well as my influence to protect) I am pro-freedom of religion.  I don't have to agree with your beliefs to believe in your right to believe them.  I'm a big big fan of personal freedoms, and that includes freedom of religion, all of the way.
I believe you would.  I believe you do feel this way.  However "your" actions (I hope it's clear that using quotes is a general "you" and not specific to you personally.)  Lets say you're gay.  And I portray myself as a person who portrays the freedom of the LGBT community.  That they should be treated as equals...and so on.  But come to find on a Christian forum or any forum for that matter, those of us that "support" the LGBT community and all that you mention just above, are found posting anti-gay propaganda, making fun of gays...or what if you find that I use the word 'gay' to mean something not manly or manly enough...?
Quote from: Ali
It's true, I wouldn't sit around telling Jesus jokes to your face (unless I knew you and knew you would appreciate them, then I totally would), not out of any nefarious atheist sneakiness, but simply because I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.
If it hurts my feelings in person, it can't hurt my feelings in anonymity on a forum?  That's the whole point I'm making.  What one does in secret usually speaks more to what their beliefs/feelings really are.  What about gay jokes?  Anti-gay images...?  Or would you say the images and/or sentiment is not anti-christian?
Quote from: Ali
In a gathering of atheists, I admit that I do feel more free to indulge in a little tongue and cheek humor about religions. It's about context, not anonymity.  I would never do such a thing on a Christian forum.  And in fairness, I really don't care if you and your Christian friends tell atheist jokes (or liberal jokes, or vegetarian jokes since I identify as all of those) but I do want you to share them with me if they are funny.
Who would argue this with you?  When amongst family, why would you inhibit your feelings unless those feelings hurt the family?  What this says to me is that amongst "family", "you" better convey your true feelings about whatever the topic is.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:07:44 PM
I was once told that one sign of maturity was that ability to laugh at oneself and really get the joke. Nothing is sacred where humour is concerned.

I think I mentioned...I've laughed at some of the posts.  One of the MORE sacreligious of them is the one of an image of Jesus on the cross with the caption, "If you're happy and you know it..."  Hilarious.  However while it does make me laugh because it is funny when you remove the God on a cross fact, it is literally making fun of an entity that a fairytale claims loves you and did this for you whether you believe it or not.  Is it funny if someone out of whatever reason, deluded or not, gives something up, something as precious as life?  Here is not to debate what "God" gave up, but the simple fact of someone dying for someone else.

Actually, the joke is from the song: If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands... which is made difficult because they're nailed down >_>
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:22:17 PM
I was once told that one sign of maturity was that ability to laugh at oneself and really get the joke. Nothing is sacred where humour is concerned.

I think I mentioned...I've laughed at some of the posts.  One of the MORE sacreligious of them is the one of an image of Jesus on the cross with the caption, "If you're happy and you know it..."  Hilarious.  However while it does make me laugh because it is funny when you remove the God on a cross fact, it is literally making fun of an entity that a fairytale claims loves you and did this for you whether you believe it or not.  Is it funny if someone out of whatever reason, deluded or not, gives something up, something as precious as life?  Here is not to debate what "God" gave up, but the simple fact of someone dying for someone else.

Actually, the joke is from the song: If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands... which is made difficult because they're nailed down >_>

Is this because you think I didn't understand the humor? 
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:36:39 PM
Is this because you think I didn't understand the humor? 

Yarp, sorry if I mistook your diatribe ^_^
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 11:38:16 PM
Imagine someone making fun of me because I accept the theory of gravity, nothing for me to get upset over. Now imagine me comparing being made fun of for accepting the theory of gravity to someone coming over and kicking my puppy. Your comparisons make it sound like theists are severly overreacting, like an eye for a tooth.

Apples and oranges, IMHO.

Is there anything in and of gravity that remotely demands (rightly or in delusionally) it be regarded as anything more than what it is?
No, is the less confirmations in reality a concept has inversely proportionate to the amount of reaction to being made fun of for accepting said concept?

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
Does gravity speak and claim anything similar to the fairytale of God?
No, does that matter for the reaction? If the concept one accepts as true speaks of god then the holder of that belief must overreact to all things making light of the concept? Is there some aspect of doubt or inability to rationally defend the concept that results in people resorting to extreme irrational means to defend the belief in the concept?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:49:05 PM
Is there some aspect of doubt or inability to rationally defend the concept that results in people resorting to extreme irrational means to defend the belief in the concept?

Kind of like equating living forever to reading one page of a book hundreds or thousands of times?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 04, 2012, 11:59:30 PM
Is there some aspect of doubt or inability to rationally defend the concept that results in people resorting to extreme irrational means to defend the belief in the concept?

Kind of like equating living forever to reading one page of a book hundreds or thousands of times?
If you want to talk about that, why not keep it in that thread instead of trying to start it up here?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Ali on January 05, 2012, 02:01:30 AM

I believe you would.  I believe you do feel this way.  However "your" actions (I hope it's clear that using quotes is a general "you" and not specific to you personally.)  Lets say you're gay.  And I portray myself as a person who portrays the freedom of the LGBT community.  That they should be treated as equals...and so on.  But come to find on a Christian forum or any forum for that matter, those of us that "support" the LGBT community and all that you mention just above, are found posting anti-gay propaganda, making fun of gays...or what if you find that I use the word 'gay' to mean something not manly or manly enough...?

Well, to be fair, I don't think I've ever claimed to be particularly pro-Christian.  I'm not particularly anti-Christian either, but I'd hardly call myself an activist for Christian rights or anything like that.  I totally get what you're saying about finding out that someone who claims to be very pro-gay rights and then is found giggling over gay jokes or whatever, but I don't think that's quite the same situation here.  I absolutely believe in freedom of religion, and if you actually needed an activist (like if people were trying to actively persecute Christians) then I like to think I would rise to the occasion because I am against oppression of all sorts.  But that's not the case today, and today, I am what I am - an atheist on an atheist website.  I won't go out of my way to track Christians down and make fun of them, but I am also okay with snerking a little at atheist humor on an atheist website. 

Quote
If it hurts my feelings in person, it can't hurt my feelings in anonymity on a forum?  That's the whole point I'm making.  What one does in secret usually speaks more to what their beliefs/feelings really are.  What about gay jokes?  Anti-gay images...?  Or would you say the images and/or sentiment is not anti-christian?

But I have a lot more control over the message I give to people irl than on an internet forum that is intended for an audience that is not you.  Again, it's about context.  It's kind of like eavesdropping on a conversation that was intended in fun and then getting angry about what you hear.

Quote
Who would argue this with you?  When amongst family, why would you inhibit your feelings unless those feelings hurt the family?  What this says to me is that amongst "family", "you" better convey your true feelings about whatever the topic is.

I think that "true feelings" are actually more complicated than you are making out.  My true feelings are that very many religious notions are silly.  My other true feelings are that people should be allowed to entertain silly religious notions if they wish.  My other true feelings are that a great many people that I like and respect hold silly notions of all sorts. 
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Stevil on January 05, 2012, 03:08:57 AM
but the simple fact of someone dying for someone else.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the character Jesus, did not die for anyone, he did not choose to die. Like all humans, we all die at some stage, or will do one day. Death is inevitable so we can't claim some great sacrifice.
Jesus life was taken from him, the death was not dedicated to humanity, he was put to death for being disruptive to the peace.
Some Christian's want to make something profound of it, even wearing a trinket looking like the device used to kill their favourite bible character.
That's fine, their business, personally I find it a little creepy but who am I to judge them?
What is annoying is when they overstep and suggest that their Jesus died for me and that I ought to be thankful.

Jesus did not die for me, I did not ask him to and I would never ask anyone to make a blood sacrifice of themselves or of anyone for my sake. This I find grotesque and insulting. Don't sling your shit in my direction please. Roast your own savior and feel pleased listening to the crackle of his bubbling skin, or smelling the divine aroma of his charring flesh, feel warm fuzzies believing he is doing this great sacrifice so that you can sin.

But I will have none of it. As far as I am concerned there was no Jesus, certainly no human-god half breed. No sacrifice, no resurrection. If you are keen to insult me then please feel free to claim that I ought to be grateful for the death of your beloved Jesus.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 03:17:58 AM
AD, shouldn't you know this whole "jesus died for your sins" statement has ZERO concern/effect on an atheist....?


Just kinda confused why you keep bringing it up. o__o
If I kept saying to you "Odin is the greatest god ever"  you probably wouldn't care.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: The Magic Pudding on January 05, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Has nothing to do on what principles this country was founded on at all.  I would challenge you to approach a U.S. vet of any war and treat their flag with any sort of disrespect.  While it's not a point of worship, it is sacred.

So what's he going to do inflict righteous violence on me?
I have very little respect for flags and find the thought of anyone risking their life to defend one obscene.  What values are these flags supposed to stand for, do they remember?  It's difficult to get a country to agree on a set of principles, much easier to convince them to salute a piece of cloth.  It is part of the ugly my country right or wrong phenomenon.   If the decision to go to war is made and the case for it and against is printed out with reasons for the conclusion, I might respect it.  I don't respect icons that people point at to silence those who question the wisdom of rulers.


Theists may be upset by my disrespect for their fantasy, well tough, perhaps if their beliefs weren’t so absurd I wouldn’t have so many opportunities for mockery.  Religion isn’t some harmless silly thing like a Star Trek convention, it is a cruel oppressive tyrant that has enslaved us for millennia.  I recognise some of the slaves do good things and I wish them well, but still I despise their master and I’ll mock him whenever the opportunity arrises.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 03:39:33 AM
^^^
Great post, Pudding!
I think dying in the name of a flag is just as deluted as dying for a mythological god.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: superfes on January 05, 2012, 06:30:56 AM
^^^
Great post, Pudding!
I think dying in the name of a flag is just as deluted as dying for a mythological god.

Even worse is when you do it under the guise of one for the other like they're interwoven somehow >_>
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 03:52:21 PM
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the character Jesus, did not die for anyone, he did not choose to die. Like all humans, we all die at some stage, or will do one day. Death is inevitable so we can't claim some great sacrifice.
Jesus life was taken from him, the death was not dedicated to humanity, he was put to death for being disruptive to the peace.
Some Christian's want to make something profound of it, even wearing a trinket looking like the device used to kill their favourite bible character.
That's fine, their business, personally I find it a little creepy but who am I to judge them?
What is annoying is when they overstep and suggest that their Jesus died for me and that I ought to be thankful.
Do you really want to be corrected?  I'm amazed at how some people can read books and get every nuance and/or detail about a story, i.e. LoTR or the Hobbit, (not necessarily speaking of exactly you, Stevil) and can then miss the whole purpose of the bible, or in context of HAF, the fairytale. 
Quote from: Stevil
Jesus did not die for me, I did not ask him to and I would never ask anyone to make a blood sacrifice of themselves or of anyone for my sake.
In the context of the "fairytale", one need only read to find you are wrong on this...the part about the Jesus character dying for you.
Quote from: Stevil
This I find grotesque and insulting. Don't sling your shit in my direction please. Roast your own savior and feel pleased listening to the crackle of his bubbling skin, or smelling the divine aroma of his charring flesh, feel warm fuzzies believing he is doing this great sacrifice so that you can sin.
I'm sorry you're offended, it is not me that brought up the fairytale in a section not specific to religion and I was not trying to "preach" or "sling" anything at you, but rather in the context of answering or discussing this subject, it was necessary to mention at least the basics.  If you cannot handle a discussion whereby there might be some reference to the bible and the "fairytale" within, then maybe it's best you stay out of this thread...?  Maybe you could try being a bit more civil and not get so tightly strung that you accuse me of "slinging shit" at you or in your direction.
Quote from: Stevil
But I will have none of it. As far as I am concerned there was no Jesus, certainly no human-god half breed. No sacrifice, no resurrection. If you are keen to insult me then please feel free to claim that I ought to be grateful for the death of your beloved Jesus.
No one is twisting your arm to participate in this thread.  Again, it was not me that brought this up as a thread topic.  If the claim of a fairytale book insults you...well then...maybe there are deeper issues with you - which is interesting because you seem to be reacting to it more like reality rather than myth.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 03:56:48 PM
Is there some aspect of doubt or inability to rationally defend the concept that results in people resorting to extreme irrational means to defend the belief in the concept?

Kind of like equating living forever to reading one page of a book hundreds or thousands of times?
If you want to talk about that, why not keep it in that thread instead of trying to start it up here?

Not bringing it up to discuss here, but showing how you play the "game" you accuse others of.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Traveler on January 05, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
...It is part of the ugly my country right or wrong phenomenon.   If the decision to go to war is made and the case for it and against is printed out with reasons for the conclusion, I might respect it.  I don't respect icons that people point at to silence those who question the wisdom of rulers...

Agreed. This country was founded on the principles of freedom, and speaking out about, well, everything, is a part of what makes for a strong and free country. It drives me crazy that people are told to shut up because what they're saying is unpatriotic. Hello? Freedom of speech IS patriotism, especially when we think the country is being run into the ground.

I LOVE this quote ...

Quote
“When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” - Sinclair Lewis
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 04:07:44 PM
That is a great quote, traveler. <3
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Davin on January 05, 2012, 04:29:13 PM
Is there some aspect of doubt or inability to rationally defend the concept that results in people resorting to extreme irrational means to defend the belief in the concept?

Kind of like equating living forever to reading one page of a book hundreds or thousands of times?
If you want to talk about that, why not keep it in that thread instead of trying to start it up here?

Not bringing it up to discuss here, but showing how you play the "game" you accuse others of.
Be very clear about what you're accusing me of, I don't feel like dealing with another back and forth before you finally express what you mean.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Buddy on January 05, 2012, 04:38:20 PM
Has nothing to do on what principles this country was founded on at all.  I would challenge you to approach a U.S. vet of any war and treat their flag with any sort of disrespect.  While it's not a point of worship, it is sacred.

So what's he going to do inflict righteous violence on me?
I have very little respect for flags and find the thought of anyone risking their life to defend one obscene.  What values are these flags supposed to stand for, do they remember?  It's difficult to get a country to agree on a set of principles, much easier to convince them to salute a piece of cloth.  It is part of the ugly my country right or wrong phenomenon.   If the decision to go to war is made and the case for it and against is printed out with reasons for the conclusion, I might respect it.  I don't respect icons that people point at to silence those who question the wisdom of rulers.


Theists may be upset by my disrespect for their fantasy, well tough, perhaps if their beliefs weren’t so absurd I wouldn’t have so many opportunities for mockery.  Religion isn’t some harmless silly thing like a Star Trek convention, it is a cruel oppressive tyrant that has enslaved us for millennia.  I recognise some of the slaves do good things and I wish them well, but still I despise their master and I’ll mock him whenever the opportunity arrises.


Yes! I have a flag collection that I hung from my ceiling and I've been told that it's disrespectful because they aren't being flown the right way. Really? It's a piece of colored fabric. I only collect them because I find them pretty and neat to look at.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Tank on January 05, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
I think I'm going to create a sub-forum called 'Hell' and just let Davin and AD post in it and nowhere else on the forum. Will you two please stop bitching at each other thank you very much.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 05:00:21 PM
Be very clear about what you're accusing me of, I don't feel like dealing with another back and forth before you finally express what you mean.

Accusation is too strong here.  It was originally more TIC.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Stevil on January 05, 2012, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: Stevil
Jesus did not die for me, I did not ask him to and I would never ask anyone to make a blood sacrifice of themselves or of anyone for my sake.
In the context of the "fairytale", one need only read to find you are wrong on this...the part about the Jesus character dying for you.
It is you who is attempting to apply the fictional story to me, I am happy to discuss the story, but please don't suggest it applies to me.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 08:51:46 PM
It is you who is attempting to apply the fictional story to me, I am happy to discuss the story, but please don't suggest it applies to me.

When did I say it applies to you?  In context of the fairytale, it applies to all...it is a fairytale right?  Why does the Atheist get all up in arms about some "fairytale" some deluded person thinks is real?
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Stevil on January 05, 2012, 08:56:26 PM
It is you who is attempting to apply the fictional story to me, I am happy to discuss the story, but please don't suggest it applies to me.

When did I say it applies to you?  In context of the fairytale, it applies to all...it is a fairytale right?  Why does the Atheist get all up in arms about some "fairytale" some deluded person thinks is real?

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
...an entity that a fairytale claims loves you and did this for you whether you believe it or not.  Is it funny if someone out of whatever reason, deluded or not, gives something up, something as precious as life?

BTW As I have said before "fairytale" is your word not mine.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 09:12:00 PM
BTW As I have said before "fairytale" is your word not mine.

All of a sudden using the term "fairytale" is scary for you in connection with the bible?  How bizzare.

Again, in context of the fairytale...it is for all.  You too, if you're in the fairytale.  But then, it is a fairytale...but you still have serious issue with this, I don't really understand this.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: Stevil on January 05, 2012, 09:27:53 PM
BTW As I have said before "fairytale" is your word not mine.

All of a sudden using the term "fairytale" is scary for you in connection with the bible?  How bizzare.

Again, in context of the fairytale...it is for all.  You too, if you're in the fairytale.  But then, it is a fairytale...but you still have serious issue with this, I don't really understand this.

Quote from: AnimatedDirt
Quote from: Stevil
Jesus did not die for me, I did not ask him to and I would never ask anyone to make a blood sacrifice of themselves or of anyone for my sake.
In the context of the "fairytale", one need only read to find you are wrong on this...the part about the Jesus character dying for you.
As I have stated, I am not part of this story. Jesus did not die for me, I find it repugnant that someone would suggest such trash and fling it at me.
I am expressing my view that I wish that you would show me some respect as an Atheist who does not believe what you believe and hence please stop suggesting that I am part of your religious story. It does not apply to me irregardless on whether you believe it does or not.

I don't state it as a fairytale, because I am more respectful than that, I understand you believe it but I think it is fictional. A fairytale is a subset of fiction. I wouldn't classify the bible as a fairytale.
Title: Re: Tired of being negative
Post by: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: Stevil
I don't state it as a fairytale, because I am more respectful than that, I understand you believe it but I think it is fictional. A fairytale is a subset of fiction. I wouldn't classify the bible as a fairytale.
Am I to assume then that you're ok with it being referred to as a piece of fiction?
Quote from: Stevil
I am expressing my view that I wish that you would show me some respect as an Atheist who does not believe what you believe and hence please stop suggesting that I am part of your religious story. It does not apply to me irregardless on whether you believe it does or not.
Again...when have I said it applys to you specifically?  Maybe in the past, but certainly not in the past few days.  I think I've been quite clear in stating over and over, "context of the fairytale" which in all honesty, I thought WOULD be respecting where most of Atheists put the bible.  Forgive me, I will now refer to it as the "piece of fiction"...assuming the above.

As I have stated, I am not part of this story. Jesus did not die for me, I find it repugnant that someone would suggest such trash and fling it at me.
Fling?  In context of the piece of fiction, how is it repugnant?  Now remember, in context of the piece of fiction.