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Getting To Know You => Ask HAF => Topic started by: Hattiecakes on November 05, 2011, 02:20:45 AM

Title: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Hattiecakes on November 05, 2011, 02:20:45 AM
Hi folks. Moderators, feel free to move this most, but I mightily hope you don't delete it.

Lifelong atheist, except for experimentation with Wicca in junior high, which was very silly. Never posted here, haven't read anything, just have one issue I would like to put to other secular people.

This is gonna get a little heavy, ok?

I'm a 24 year old female in Indiana with clinical depression. I have been suicidal to varying degrees a number of times in my life, with increasing severity and regularity. I am medicated, I have had some counseling but quit because it just made me feel like I was talking to a trained monkey ("It sounds like you're really suffering." "Tell me more about that." Scribble scribble).

I am looking for rational, intelligent people to discuss suicide from a secular, rational perspective--because I genuinely don't understand why it isn't more prevalent. The fact that it seems so unthinkable to people is the only thing that makes me think I'm missing something...

Is suicide only unthinkable to people as a result of religious cultural hangover, and it isn't unthinkable to a truly secular person?

Basically: Suicide seems like a rational, even attractive (sometimes) option for me--to what extent is this my secularism, and to what extent my depression?

Sometimes I think it's this litigious society that keeps anyone from telling me "No, there is technically no reason one should not kill oneself if one wishes."

But I have surfed a few atheist blogs and they seem to operate under the assumption that suicide is never an option--unless you are old or terminally ill. Why the distinction?

So why, happy atheists, is it not an option for an un-old, un-terminally ill person to kill oneself? To me, saying suicide is never an acceptable option is like saying divorce is never an option... You can say you're not going to get divorced when you get married, but it's impossible to completely take it off the table as an option. You can only hope it doesn't come to that.

So here is where I am: It's November, and every winter is a struggle with my body not to sleep sixteen hours a day and spend the rest mopey and thinking of implements of death, and I am damn tired of fighting it. I'm depressed year round, I just have a harder time with physical/behavioral manifestations in winter. It gets worse every year. If I am supposed to fight off my suicidal urges, I really need to be explicitly told why--and it needs to be by unprofessional atheist strangers who can form a sentence, have no legal stake in my choices, no emotional stake in my choices, and can look at the notion of suicide objectively. "Happy Atheists" seems like a good place to find that, maybe?

1. "It's selfish" doesn't get to me, because it's my life and I ought to be able to be selfish with it, just as I ought not to have to date someone I don't like even if they really want me to.

2. "It causes suffering to those you love" used to give me pause, but I think about people I was close to that died years ago--it still hurts, but it doesn't hurt as much as my normal level of unhappiness, so I think my needs outweigh the suffering of friends and family (time heals, yo). I believe this operating under the assumption that I will be increasingly depressed over the course of my natural life, as this has been the trend for the past 15.

3. "Life is awesome and fun." Not for everyone! I don't appear to be capable of experiencing that, and I am really tired of trying. My life is relatively cooshy in the scheme of the world and I am incapable of finding pleasure in it. I just can't seem to have fun at this party, and I just keep wishing I could leave.

I am interested to hear any unsentimental atheist notions about why suicide is or isn't acceptable as a solution to major depressive disorder or anything else; also interested in atheist stuff to live for, and atheist "meaning of life."

 I would like to gauge whether or to what extent my inclination toward suicidal thought is mental illness, or whether it's a rational reaction to a world that I do not enjoy living in (because apparently life is getting up every day and going to a job you probably hate--if you're lucky enough to have one--so you can pay student loans for a degree you don't use, for 50 years, and then with modern medicine you live into your nineties, but by then your retirement--if you are lucky enough to have one--has run out, and social security can't save you, so if you didn't pollute the planet with more kids, you live in public housing with rats and crackheads, and by then global warming has caused food shortages if we're lucky, or it's suffocating us--and THIS is just in America, the FIRST world... So why should I do this if I can't even get into the "getting up every day" part?)


HOW are you HAPPY atheists? I want to know the secret. Thx.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 03:09:35 AM
Hi there,

There was a recent thread here about an atheist perspective on suicide, you can find it  here.  (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8143.0)

Other than that, I hope you find this place a useful resource. I have a bit of a nihilistic perspective on life, myself, so I don't know that I would be the best person to talk to, but there are many other valuable contributors here who have struggled with depression. I hope you like it here :)  

EDIT: FYI: We do, also, have rules against posting anything too "serious" in the "getting to know you" section, but it usually applies to folks who come in and want to debate religion/philosophy/creationism right off the bat without so much as a "how do you do." New posters are generally encouraged to look around this section and get a feel for the place before diving into the really heavy stuff, so you'll find that you won't be able to post in some sections for your first 10 posts  :)
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Buddy on November 05, 2011, 03:17:51 AM
Welcome to the forum, I live Indiana also.  :)


I guess what makes me happy is the fact that I have so much freedom to live my life the way I want too, not the way some magic man in the sky wants me to live. I would rather be free to choose rather than be a puppet on a string.

Do you have friends who share the same beliefs as you? I found that it really helps to have somebody there to talk to who knows how to respond in a way that won't upset you more, even if they will just listen to you rant. (Trust me, my friends have heard enough complaints and rants about religion from me to write a book.)

I really hope you do start to feel better. Maybe just having people around like us will start to get you on the road to happiness  :D

Skål, Buddy
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Whitney on November 05, 2011, 04:10:13 AM
Welcome to HAF...I moved your topic to Help Desk and am waiving the 10 posts before serious discussions requirement.  Eventually I'll move the thread into the Life as an atheist section; but for now I want you to be able to post if you need to discuss.

As for your question on why people are hesitant to condone suicide....

Naturally most people have a survival instinct; couple that with a natural fear of the unknown (death/dying/non-existence) and you have a good recipe for why so many humans don't like the idea of suicide.  Now, this doesn't make it logical to avoid suicide; but our emotions are not logical anyway so you won't find very many logical reasons (and you've already mentioned them and why you dismiss them; though I think part of that dismissal is because you are depressed) for avoiding something that is ultimately an emotional decision in most cases.

Having had various episodes of depression in the past; I've reached quite a few points where it doesn't seem worth it.  But those moments of wanting to give up got overshadowed by knowing how good life can be when it is good.  And I think that's why most people don't really think about suicide other than the occasional really low moment that quickly passes.

I don't know you and can't put myself in your shoes; but certainly you've had some good times in your life.  And considering how much the economy is getting everyone down this isn't the best time to evaluate if continuing to fight off suicidal thoughts is worth it.

Frankly, it's a personal decision but also one that can affect others in a manner that in a way makes your depression live on past you in others.  Suicide does hurt family members and friends because they are unprepared for the loss and often feel that they could have prevented it "if they had only...."  Your young age increases the chances of family and friends being emotionally scarred for life over your suicide.  Just something to think about.

Another thing to think about....are you asking us because you want to be talked out of it?  Isn't that reason enough to give yourself some more time?  It's not like death is going anywhere.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 05, 2011, 05:46:42 AM
Welcome!

Quote
2. "It causes suffering to those you love" used to give me pause, but I think about people I was close to that died years ago--it still hurts, but it doesn't hurt as much as my normal level of unhappiness, so I think my needs outweigh the suffering of friends and family (time heals, yo).

Not quite true. You can't really compare suicide to someone who is terminally ill, whose death is prepared for by friends and family members prior to that person's death. Or even to an accident, which no one is hardly ever prepared for but...shit just happens. People deal with it and get on with their lives.

As for suicide, where you yourself choose and cause your own death, a final act that your family members didn't see coming, they'll almost certainly blame themselves for the rest of their lives for not having been able to do anything to avoid it or see that you're suffering as much as you are early enough to have saved you. It's a lot more complicated. If I were you, I would at least give them some more serious consideration and talk to them about how you feel and what you're thinking. I think that nobody deserves to feel like  they could've had the chance to save their loved one and didn't.

Death is just too final, IMO.

Quote
I believe this operating under the assumption that I will be increasingly depressed over the course of my natural life, as this has been the trend for the past 15.

I just can't stand therapists, because whatever they say just seems, like you said, like overly trained monkeys talking. They sound shallow and cliché, but I (who am not a therapist or anything remotely similar) am going to end up being just as shallow and cliché here: if you operate under that assumption, then that's probably what you're going to cause to happen. 15 years, for example, is still a long way off, and a lot can happen...
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 10:11:34 AM
Welcome!

Quote
2. "It causes suffering to those you love" used to give me pause, but I think about people I was close to that died years ago--it still hurts, but it doesn't hurt as much as my normal level of unhappiness, so I think my needs outweigh the suffering of friends and family (time heals, yo).

Not quite true. You can't really compare suicide to someone who is terminally ill, whose death is prepared for by friends and family members prior to that person's death. Or even to an accident, which no one is hardly ever prepared for but...shit just happens. People deal with it and get on with their lives.

As for suicide, where you yourself choose and cause your own death, a final act that your family members didn't see coming, they'll almost certainly blame themselves for the rest of their lives for not having been able to do anything to avoid it or see that you're suffering as much as you are early enough to have saved you. It's a lot more complicated. If I were you, I would at least give them some more serious consideration and talk to them about how you feel and what you're thinking. I think that nobody deserves to feel like  they could've had the chance to save their loved one and didn't.

Death is just too final, IMO.

Quote
I believe this operating under the assumption that I will be increasingly depressed over the course of my natural life, as this has been the trend for the past 15.

I just can't stand therapists, because whatever they say just seems, like you said, like overly trained monkeys talking. They sound shallow and cliché, but I (who am not a therapist or anything remotely similar) am going to end up being just as shallow and cliché here: if you operate under that assumption, then that's probably what you're going to cause to happen. 15 years, for example, is still a long way off, and a lot can happen...
xSP beat me too it on these two points, particularly about dealing with a death (natural or accidental) as opposed to a suicide. Although during bouts of deep depression when you are in your own head any rational argument is pretty much meaningless.

I get depressed sometimes and a couple of years ago had planned the whole process of killing myself. I'd even done the maths to make sure I wouldn't feel anything and scouted a location. Why am I still here? Because I couldn't figure out how to deal with my pet dog. It was that simple. People can get over the issues and sometimes part of the motivation for suicide can be 'I told you so!'. A final 'Fuck You!' I really was depressed, it's not just attention grabbing (or whatever).

I've been for counselling three times and the key thing to success was the quality of the counsellor. One thing to bear in mind is that a lot of counsellors do the job because they have mental problems themselves! Not exactly the best group of people to advise somebody with depression! One of my three counsellors was however quite amazing. Long story short, I had never accepted that my father was not responsible for his death. My Mum hadn't helped. My Dad was diagnosed with cancer when I was 12 and my Mum told me he was going to die. Well to a 12yo that's pretty heavy stuff. He survived the initial cancers but got secondaries when I was 16 and died 2 weeks after my 17th birthday. But looking back he 'died' when my Mum told me at 12 that he had cancer, he just took 5 years to do it. I now realise he had no choice in his death. I can't imagine how I would feel if had actually chosen to kill himself. Hence my endorsement of xSP's point earlier.

So what gets me out of bed in the morning? Well each day is the chance to find something new. To see a new science story. To take a new photo with a bit of a 'Wow' factor. To see what the next day will bring. To be bounced on by my doggies. To see my almost 1yo grandson (it's his first fireworks night tonight!). To watch a good TV programme (Frozen Planet or Strictly Come Dancing).

Human life has always been hard, some might say it has become materially easier of late but your last paragraph reveals quite eloquently that psychologically it has become harder. IMO this is because very little in the modern world is directly in one's power to control. It's all become secondary and at the whim of others and one's own ability to earn money.

Another problem with modern life is the stress of expectations. I must a bigger TV. I must have a partner. I must be the best at (insert whatever). I must have a great time at a party. And all the time we are shown via the media and through peer pressure how we consistently fail to live up to expectations that are pushed onto us. America is an appallingly bad place if you don't 'succeed' because if you don't you're a 'loser'. Yet as there is only ever one winner everybody else has to be a 'loser', IE all the normal people!

Depression is also debilitating because it becomes self-fulfilling. It has a horrible positive feedback loop. One gets a little depressed and sees failings in situations/people that one would not see previously. This makes one more depressed and the downward negative spiral is reinforced (hence positive feedback loop). Thus you are where you are now, everything is shit and there is no light at the end of the tunnel, in fact there is no fucking tunnel! And all you want to do is go to sleep and not wake up.

So what is wrong with suicide? Nothing in the final analysis. It's your existence and you can choose to end it or not. In fact understanding that it is one's choice is in a way a release in itself. It is a tunnel, all be it one with a non-return option. But you can't tell the future really can you? So there is always the possibility of things getting better. So why just give up. You have a life, an infinite number of people never got a life. Ever conception that never happened is a life that never even got started. You did get started so use your life for what pleases you.

I don't know the details of your circumstances so I can't point out 'Reasons to be cheerful'. But for me at the moment it's the little things that I take pleasure from. Writing this post in the hope it'll do somebody I have never met some good. Seeing my doggies getting all excited at the though of a walk. Looking forward to seeing my grandson this evening and letting off some fireworks for him. Watching SCD and seeing Chelsee (sic) dance the Charleston. But the common thread of those things that cheer me up is doing something positive for others or seeing somebody strive and succeed.

Depression is horrible because it's all about oneself and how things can't possibly get worse, yet they invariably appear to (damn those self-fulfilling prophesies!). So the way out for some is to do things for others and take pleasure from their pleasure. What make you happy?
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 05, 2011, 10:28:46 AM
Welcome to HAF!

I am interested to hear any unsentimental atheist notions about why suicide is or isn't acceptable as a solution to major depressive disorder or anything else; also interested in atheist stuff to live for, and atheist "meaning of life."

I have been living on momentum in periods due to various factors and, when the momentum ran low, saying "Fuck it" and eating a bullet seemed like a rather nice alternative.

I found out that living for larger goals doesn't work for me - I'm a tactician much more than strategist, and so I live simply because I'm alive, and I do try to fill this "aliveness" with something I find meaningful and interesting.

If you do want to discuss suicide with someone who can be and indeed is rather cold and unemotional about it, I can probably help you out there, although I suspect it may be a very short discussion since we are pretty much on the same page, judging by what you wrote.

As for depressions, a combo of smokes, Cipralex and a few other pills does work for me.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 05, 2011, 01:31:46 PM
As for depressions, a combo of smokes, Cipralex and a few other pills does work for me.

I'm treading lightly here since I'm not an atheist, but I was wondering if maybe something along the above-lines would work.  It's often just a bio-chemical issue.  I have a friend who was suffering from intractable headaches and nausea, and some strong weed broke the cycle. He's much better now.

 
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Crow on November 05, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
As for depressions, a combo of smokes, Cipralex and a few other pills does work for me.
I have a friend who was suffering from intractable headaches and nausea, and some strong weed broke the cycle. He's much better now.

These are along the lines of what I was going to recommend, however try ecstasy not weed as that may make the problem much worse. There are trials currently being held in the States to treat manic depressives using ecstasy with very good results, maybe you could do a little research into getting onto one of the trails.

Its up to you at the end of the day but before you make a decision go bungee jumping, try parachuting, try get some adrenalin pumping through your system. At least if you do come to an ultimatum you have experienced things that challenge you mentally and physically that by there nature will activate your fight or flight reactions hopefully putting some interest and excitement into your life.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Whitney on November 05, 2011, 03:33:00 PM
As for depressions, a combo of smokes, Cipralex and a few other pills does work for me.

I'm treading lightly here since I'm not an atheist, but I was wondering if maybe something along the above-lines would work.  It's often just a bio-chemical issue.  I have a friend who was suffering from intractable headaches and nausea, and some strong weed broke the cycle. He's much better now.
 

Exercise always breaks me out of mine.....but exercise is also really hard to get motivated to do especially when you are already depressed.  It's a natural high; especially after you get use to it.  I'm actually still working on exercising regularly but think that as long as I do it semi-regularly it might help avoiding depression.  I also have issues with winter depression....I've heard that daylight bulbs help with that.

With street drugs I'd just caution in making sure that when you come down of the high it doesn't create a big low....ecstasy wouldn't be good for someone who is already suicidal.  If already on prescription medication there may also be drug interactions to be concerned about.  Then there is the issue of legality and if the potential benefit is worth the possible arrest.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Hattiecakes on November 05, 2011, 05:00:58 PM
First of all, I appreciate the input.


Another thing to think about....are you asking us because you want to be talked out of it?  Isn't that reason enough to give yourself some more time?  It's not like death is going anywhere.

I'm not entirely sure. I know that I am tired of running around in my head about being suicidal, and I am tired of being unwiling to commit to life or to killing myself--I commit to neither, and it certainly affects my decisions.

I don't know how to quote multiple authors, and there was a lot to digest in all that, so here goes...

1. DeterminedJuliet: Thank you for the link to the other thread, I read through a good deal of it and will read the rest shortly, that is definitely something I wanted to find.

2. BudHorse4: Most of my friends are atheists or functionally secular, but we generally don't rant about religion, it's simply irrelevant. When I rant--and I don't do it often--it's usually more about the hopeless and pathetic nature of the times we live in (like that last bit on my first post). It is not really appropriate for me to rant in that way around my friends with reference to myself--I do not enjoy my job, but not all of my friends have jobs, and I make more money than those that do. Like I said--my life is comparitively cooshy. My friends know I am depressed, they may not always be up to date on HOW depressed. I have a tendency to be secretive, especially if I am feeling presently suicidal. My friends know that I am often suicidal. All of my good friends have had or presently have depression issues, too, but they are all of varying flavors.

3. xSilverPhinx: Definitely a good point. One thing that I do, though, is it often feels less like a matter of "if" as a matter of "when;" that is, it often feels inevitable that I will eventually give in and kill myself, so I think about opportunities that will likely be less painful for my friends. It's pretty f----d, I know. Also, I'm not so sure anyone would blame themselves. I am frank with anyone I am friends with that I am depressed, and anyone I am close to that I have, on occasion, seriously considered suicide. As for my family, all of them that I have any sort of genuine relationship with know that I am depressed and inclined toward morbidity. Actually, everyone who knows me at all knows I am depressed and inclined toward morbidity. Still, though--the difference between a suicide and other kinds of death is an excellent point if one is to attempt to weigh out quantities of cognitive suffering.

4. Tank: DAMMIT, the pet issue, I know. I have three cats. I have extracted from my mother a promise to care for them if I could not keep them for some reason, and she really does enjoy them, and I think they'd be good for her... But it still presents a logistical problem. If I imagine my cats as a witness to my suicide, even though they are cats, it bothers me. Like they could replay it to my family somehow with their eyes.

And quality of counselors: this has occurred to me. I just don't know what to do about it. It's frustrating/upsetting/depressing to try a counselor and find that you've poured your heart out to a blank robot-person and you wish you could put it away again. It's difficult to find the motivation to try again. Plus there's the insurance/copay/cost stuff.. Waaah waaah waah. I know I should suck it up and go find a new counselor, that is a sane thing to do.

The reasons you get out of bed in the morning are not ones I can relate to, or aren't motivating enough (good point of comparison to see how a healthy mind functions though, thank you). Except the bounced on by doggies thing--one thing that makes it hard to get OUT of bed is that about 15 minutes before I have to get up, my cats all come and get under the blankets with me and snuggle, and I don't want to leave...

I agree with you about the suckiness of modern life. That is one of the things that distresses me--and not just for me, but I think it contributes to the high rates of depression in America. My generation, anyway, grew up thinking we were beautiful, smart, talented little f---ing snowflakes, and that we could do and be anything we wanted. And when elementary school sucked, we were told wait for middle school, it's awesome, and when that sucked, it was wait for high school, it's awesome; and when high school sucked, we were told wait for college, it's awesome AND if you're good and smart and talented, you can go to any school you wish.... Which is a lie, because of money. In college, we were told "study what you love! You'll be great at it!" and that is terrible advice. When we were overworked and poor in college, we were told just wait until you have a 9-5 job (lie), no homework (lie), and money to play with (semi-lie, student loans, rent, utilities and gasoline eat most of my low-middle-class salary). Everyone I went to school with was also under the impression that if you go to college, you can get a job... Finding my job was very, very difficult, and the rest of my peers have wore jobs or no job. Student loans are also a rip-off... I think they are to keep you too tied down to just be a vagrant hippie or something.

So I often wonder, if that's the situation, maybe depression is rational and the rest of you are kidding yourselves... But I'd rather kid myself if I could!

Fortunately, I don't feel much outward stress of expectations. I have no TV and do not need one; I have no man and do not need one, and I don't think it would be appropriate to invite a man into my messy little head anyway. I don't want to be best at anything... I just want to be 1) publicly useful and 2) to be free to be privately weird (I make tasteless art when I am feeling well)... And obviously I want to be psychologically and physically comfortable.

Depression self-fulfilling: Yes. Not sure what to do about that. Don't know the future: Yes, but I can't make myself particularly interested in it... Because I firmly believe that life involves more putting-up-with than pleasure. Things getting ENOUGH better that I would be PLEASED seems unlikely--and I will acknowledge that this is a snotty, nasty notion, the product of my depression and my unreasonable expectations of life.

The notion of living simply because others didn't get to seems flawed to me--like standing in a long line for hours just because there are a bunch of people behind you. But I can see how some people might find that a justification.

It's a lot easier said than done to use your life for what pleases you--am I wrong? The realities of work, money, lack of opportunity, inadequate skills or abilities, the realities of who you know and who you don't...

Some details of my circumstances: I am a 24 year old woman, white, college-educated in some silly liberal arts mumbo-jumbo; I work for an affordable housing non-profit, I write grants and appeals for donations and organize networking opportunities for activists and neighborhood leaders; I recruit volunteers for community projects, create educational opportunities about financial literacy, neighborhood revitalization, foreclosure prevention, help with property taxes; I work on advocacy for legislative changes in support of more affordable housing; I work on solutions to blight and vacancy for neighborhoods, I set up internships and other inter-organizational relationships... In daily matters, this means a lot of data entry, phone calls, emails, meetings, working with caterers, making copies, coding and filing things, taking minutes and typing things, making flyers, printing, collating, folding, stapling, faxing, proofreading, editing. My organization is highly dysfunctional and I work for a really inept, nasty, controlling woman. My organization is ethically gray in a lot of ways, but I am glad I don't work for a payday lender or something. I moved for this job about two hours from anyone I am close to, and have not met many people I much care to interact with. In my off-time I am an artist, I occasionally sell art online and have been in some gallery shows. I am single and live alone in a nice little house. I do not often meet people I am attracted to. I tend to be attracted to people that are inappropriate for me (in their late forties or fifties, don't share my most important interests, are way neater or way messier than me), so that gets awkward. Haven't had sex since February, it was excellent but the guy was so annoying it made me feel disinterested in sex for six months or so. Marijuana makes me paranoid or sleepy, and I love hallucinagens but don't know where to get them anymore. I love dark beer. I used to be a vegetarian, but within this last year, depression has made me unclear on why it mattered so much, so I eat fish and sometimes cheat and eat chicken, beef or pork, and then feel disappointed with myself. I read a lot of nonfiction and spend most of my free time either alone at home, at breweries with work friends, or traveling to see long-time friends or family. I am inconsistent with my housekeeping, exercise, and interest in making art. Diagnose away.

I like doing things for my friends and coworkers (buying or making them things, sending them notes, making them laugh, helping them), but there isn't enough pleasure in that to keep me un-depressed. I get a lot of pleasure from my cats, I play with them every day. When I am less-depressed, I get pleasure from making art, making my house neat and beautiful, sewing, cooking, being outside and exercising. I like to visit my dad's family and see my baby half-sister and play with play-do. None of it lasts, though. Thank you for asking me to think of those things, though.

5. I quit smoking because it's expensive and smelly in February, but drunkenly bought a pack the weekend of Halloween and have been smoking, want to stop before it gets bad again. I quit smoking by using Chantix and mescaline. Pot makes me paranoid and sleepy, but I do not regularly have access to other kinds of drugs. My understanding is that Exstacy is dangerous for depressives because it "burns out" serotonin receptors (over time, decreasing your ability to feel pleasure). I want mushrooms sooooooo baaaaaaaad, though.

6. I'd love to go bungee-jumping or parachuting, it's quite expensive, though--but that's why God made credit cards... ;) Great suggestion, though, if I do become certain that I want to kill myself, I should make time for something like that.

Thanks, y'all. I don't know what I want to do, but this exercise has helped my to parse out a little better what is depression and what is atheism/realism. I don't do the forum thing much, so if you don't hear from me again or any time soon, it does not necessarily mean I've gone and offed myself.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 05:22:26 PM
Glad to have been a little help. Just imagine your poor Mum having to look after your cats when you're gone. Seeing them every day and knowing why she has them. Yep that was a blatent emotional double-bind!  ;D

Another thing to remeber is you can always kill yourself tomorrow, the only timetable is your's.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 05:39:20 PM
In case you do want to hang around  ;D

Notes for new members.
The Rules. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0)

 Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php#2) section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.

Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
10 Things About Yourself  (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0)
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8215.0)
Photography (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0)
Non-religious pet peeves  (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6917.0)
How to tell your family you are an atheist. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5111.0)*

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Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 05, 2011, 05:43:32 PM
Another thing to remeber is you can always kill yourself tomorrow, the only timetable is your's.
Yeah... That's how I look at it most of the time. I am displeased with today, but not enough to go firebomb myself on the spot, so if tomorrow gets any shittier, I'll try then. Until that time, no use dwelling.

...And then I go on about dwelling and preferably bitching and moaning and whining someone's ears off. Luckily for me, those in my inner circles know that that is what works in terms of getting me out of my dark-corner-brooding and so they don't complain overmuch.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 05:50:58 PM
...And then I go on about dwelling and preferably bitching and moaning and whining someone's ears off. Luckily for me, those in my inner circles know that that is what works in terms of getting me out of my dark-corner-brooding and so they don't complain overmuch.
Ha! You're lucky I'm not around. You'd find yourself tied up in the corner with a ball gag in your mouth until you snapped out of it!  ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 05, 2011, 06:08:04 PM
Ha! You're lucky I'm not around. You'd find yourself tied up in the corner with a ball gag in your mouth until you snapped out of it!  ;D
I'm a bit too big and far too dangerous to manhandle safely, so those who can't deal with my moods tend to just stay away from my inner circles.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 07:25:09 PM
Ha! You're lucky I'm not around. You'd find yourself tied up in the corner with a ball gag in your mouth until you snapped out of it!  ;D
I'm a bit too big and far too dangerous to manhandle safely, so those who can't deal with my moods tend to just stay away from my inner circles.

I have visions of Tank trying to trap Asmo with something like this:
(http://creativelyput.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/trap.jpg?w=170&h=107)
May need something tastier than a carrot, though. I'm not sure what would be good grey lumpy bait.

To OP: do check in from time to time, though. I'm sure many of us will continue to wonder how you are.  :)
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Willow on November 05, 2011, 07:32:03 PM

Some details of my circumstances: I am a 24 year old woman, white, college-educated in some silly liberal arts mumbo-jumbo; I work for an affordable housing non-profit, I write grants and appeals for donations and organize networking opportunities for activists and neighborhood leaders; I recruit volunteers for community projects, create educational opportunities about financial literacy, neighborhood revitalization, foreclosure prevention, help with property taxes; I work on advocacy for legislative changes in support of more affordable housing; I work on solutions to blight and vacancy for neighborhoods, I set up internships and other inter-organizational relationships... In daily matters, this means a lot of data entry, phone calls, emails, meetings, working with caterers, making copies, coding and filing things, taking minutes and typing things, making flyers, printing, collating, folding, stapling, faxing, proofreading, editing. My organization is highly dysfunctional and I work for a really inept, nasty, controlling woman. My organization is ethically gray in a lot of ways, but I am glad I don't work for a payday lender or something. I moved for this job about two hours from anyone I am close to, and have not met many people I much care to interact with. In my off-time I am an artist, I occasionally sell art online and have been in some gallery shows. I am single and live alone in a nice little house. I do not often meet people I am attracted to. I tend to be attracted to people that are inappropriate for me (in their late forties or fifties, don't share my most important interests, are way neater or way messier than me), so that gets awkward. Haven't had sex since February, it was excellent but the guy was so annoying it made me feel disinterested in sex for six months or so. Marijuana makes me paranoid or sleepy, and I love hallucinagens but don't know where to get them anymore. I love dark beer. I used to be a vegetarian, but within this last year, depression has made me unclear on why it mattered so much, so I eat fish and sometimes cheat and eat chicken, beef or pork, and then feel disappointed with myself. I read a lot of nonfiction and spend most of my free time either alone at home, at breweries with work friends, or traveling to see long-time friends or family. I am inconsistent with my housekeeping, exercise, and interest in making art. Diagnose away.

I know what it is, you're me 11 years ago.
Please could you post a link to your creative stuff?
I know that nasty boss woman, I've met her a few times under various different names.  Her sole purpose in life is to make sure you know she is senior to you.
There were a few things I think got me through depression.  My re-enactment society got me away from modern life every other weekend in the summer.  The society gives some ascribed value and belonging just from being a member.  People will talk to you even if they don't know your name and you've never met before.  And I lucked out and got a new job.  I had been trying to get out of a call centre for a while, and had given up job hunting, I was not even well enough to go in, and being casual staff that meant no money.  One of the jobs I had applied for offered me the post, which was a change from the persistant rejection.

I recommend saving up for a sex toy.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 05, 2011, 08:02:04 PM
Ha! You're lucky I'm not around. You'd find yourself tied up in the corner with a ball gag in your mouth until you snapped out of it!  ;D
I'm a bit too big and far too dangerous to manhandle safely, so those who can't deal with my moods tend to just stay away from my inner circles.

I have visions of Tank trying to trap Asmo with something like this:
(http://creativelyput.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/trap.jpg?w=170&h=107)
May need something tastier than a carrot, though. I'm not sure what would be good grey lumpy bait.

To OP: do check in from time to time, though. I'm sure many of us will continue to wonder how you are.  :)

Something lootable. ;D That should get the grumpy lumpy crawling in there...
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 08:07:34 PM
{snip}
I recommend saving up for a sex toy.
I had thought about that to, I'm glad you brought it up There is a definite corrolation between how happy a lady is and 'that sort of thing'  ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 05, 2011, 08:24:35 PM
Quote
3. xSilverPhinx: Definitely a good point. One thing that I do, though, is it often feels less like a matter of "if" as a matter of "when;" that is, it often feels inevitable that I will eventually give in and kill myself, so I think about opportunities that will likely be less painful for my friends. It's pretty f----d, I know. Also, I'm not so sure anyone would blame themselves. I am frank with anyone I am friends with that I am depressed, and anyone I am close to that I have, on occasion, seriously considered suicide. As for my family, all of them that I have any sort of genuine relationship with know that I am depressed and inclined toward morbidity. Actually, everyone who knows me at all knows I am depressed and inclined toward morbidity. Still, though--the difference between a suicide and other kinds of death is an excellent point if one is to attempt to weigh out quantities of cognitive suffering.

I don't know you or your family even remotely well enough to say, but I still strongly believe that even if they know that you've been depressed and are inclined towards morbidity or questioning why you should exist, suicide is a huge step, and still way more painful for those that would have to deal with that fact. There's a difference between someone who is live and physically well (your emotional state isn't as accessible to them as your physical state, which is probably why they would underplay just how you feel) dying non intentionally and that same person killing themselves. Even if both situations are out of their control, the second one will be seen as something that could've been helped if they had caught the signs or something.

If you were able to be less depressed but go into an apathetic but still existentially nihilistic life - where you live just for the sake of living, one day at a time but without thoughts of suicide - would you consider that to be an unreasonable expectation?

Have you tried changing your medication?

Going to rant a bit about therapists for a while now:

I agree wholeheartedly (based on experience) that most therapists just...don't...ever get it right. Of course there are those who are a bit more sensitive to people, and if you find one of those, then they're worth keeping.

The good point of therapy, however, is that it helps you see something about yourself or about your life that you weren't previously aware of, that could in turn help you tremendously. Sometimes all it takes is seeing the world in a different way, and you are then able to release yourself from your depressive feedback loop, or at least learn how to better manage it, while taking anti depressants to correct the physical reasons for depression.  
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 05, 2011, 08:38:27 PM
Something lootable. ;D That should get the grumpy lumpy crawling in there...
Ooh! Like a fly in a pile of crap  ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 05, 2011, 11:00:37 PM
Something lootable. ;D That should get the grumpy lumpy crawling in there...
Ooh! Like a fly in a pile of crap  ;D

Great metaphor. Very poetic ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Crow on November 05, 2011, 11:17:41 PM
With street drugs I'd just caution in making sure that when you come down of the high it doesn't create a big low....ecstasy wouldn't be good for someone who is already suicidal.  If already on prescription medication there may also be drug interactions to be concerned about.  Then there is the issue of legality and if the potential benefit is worth the possible arrest.
I wouldn't recommend going down the illegal route, as there are many legitimate ways of obtaining the drug with some studies being directed towards people that are suicidal, you also avoid the crap that gets cut with the MDMA creating a safer experience and significantly reduced comedowns. My understanding of the studies underway with using medical MDMA as a way to tackle depression isn't to use it in regular doses as with other drugs but rather as a way to experience unbelievable  pleasurable experiences (i.e. its like a constant orgasm minus any fluids where you love everything, find everything amazing, breathing is like drinking an ice cold glass of water in a summer heatwave) and fully open up the patient to talk about life unhindered.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 06, 2011, 12:37:12 AM
Great metaphor. Very poetic ;D
Well, I WAS talking about looting after all. Preferably looting of dead things.  ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Norfolk And Chance on November 06, 2011, 02:20:20 AM
Hi folks. Moderators, feel free to move this most, but I mightily hope you don't delete it.

Lifelong atheist, except for experimentation with Wicca in junior high, which was very silly. Never posted here, haven't read anything, just have one issue I would like to put to other secular people.

This is gonna get a little heavy, ok?

I'm a 24 year old female in Indiana with clinical depression. I have been suicidal to varying degrees a number of times in my life, with increasing severity and regularity. I am medicated, I have had some counseling but quit because it just made me feel like I was talking to a trained monkey ("It sounds like you're really suffering." "Tell me more about that." Scribble scribble).

I am looking for rational, intelligent people to discuss suicide from a secular, rational perspective--because I genuinely don't understand why it isn't more prevalent. The fact that it seems so unthinkable to people is the only thing that makes me think I'm missing something...

Is suicide only unthinkable to people as a result of religious cultural hangover, and it isn't unthinkable to a truly secular person?

Basically: Suicide seems like a rational, even attractive (sometimes) option for me--to what extent is this my secularism, and to what extent my depression?

Sometimes I think it's this litigious society that keeps anyone from telling me "No, there is technically no reason one should not kill oneself if one wishes."

But I have surfed a few atheist blogs and they seem to operate under the assumption that suicide is never an option--unless you are old or terminally ill. Why the distinction?

So why, happy atheists, is it not an option for an un-old, un-terminally ill person to kill oneself? To me, saying suicide is never an acceptable option is like saying divorce is never an option... You can say you're not going to get divorced when you get married, but it's impossible to completely take it off the table as an option. You can only hope it doesn't come to that.

So here is where I am: It's November, and every winter is a struggle with my body not to sleep sixteen hours a day and spend the rest mopey and thinking of implements of death, and I am damn tired of fighting it. I'm depressed year round, I just have a harder time with physical/behavioral manifestations in winter. It gets worse every year. If I am supposed to fight off my suicidal urges, I really need to be explicitly told why--and it needs to be by unprofessional atheist strangers who can form a sentence, have no legal stake in my choices, no emotional stake in my choices, and can look at the notion of suicide objectively. "Happy Atheists" seems like a good place to find that, maybe?

1. "It's selfish" doesn't get to me, because it's my life and I ought to be able to be selfish with it, just as I ought not to have to date someone I don't like even if they really want me to.

2. "It causes suffering to those you love" used to give me pause, but I think about people I was close to that died years ago--it still hurts, but it doesn't hurt as much as my normal level of unhappiness, so I think my needs outweigh the suffering of friends and family (time heals, yo). I believe this operating under the assumption that I will be increasingly depressed over the course of my natural life, as this has been the trend for the past 15.

3. "Life is awesome and fun." Not for everyone! I don't appear to be capable of experiencing that, and I am really tired of trying. My life is relatively cooshy in the scheme of the world and I am incapable of finding pleasure in it. I just can't seem to have fun at this party, and I just keep wishing I could leave.

I am interested to hear any unsentimental atheist notions about why suicide is or isn't acceptable as a solution to major depressive disorder or anything else; also interested in atheist stuff to live for, and atheist "meaning of life."

 I would like to gauge whether or to what extent my inclination toward suicidal thought is mental illness, or whether it's a rational reaction to a world that I do not enjoy living in (because apparently life is getting up every day and going to a job you probably hate--if you're lucky enough to have one--so you can pay student loans for a degree you don't use, for 50 years, and then with modern medicine you live into your nineties, but by then your retirement--if you are lucky enough to have one--has run out, and social security can't save you, so if you didn't pollute the planet with more kids, you live in public housing with rats and crackheads, and by then global warming has caused food shortages if we're lucky, or it's suffocating us--and THIS is just in America, the FIRST world... So why should I do this if I can't even get into the "getting up every day" part?)


HOW are you HAPPY atheists? I want to know the secret. Thx.


Hmmm, why is suicide a bad thing from a secular point of view?

Well, because you only live once and there's no second chance.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Davin on November 07, 2011, 06:34:30 PM

Another thing to think about....are you asking us because you want to be talked out of it?  Isn't that reason enough to give yourself some more time?  It's not like death is going anywhere.

I'm not entirely sure. I know that I am tired of running around in my head about being suicidal, and I am tired of being unwiling to commit to life or to killing myself--I commit to neither, and it certainly affects my decisions.
This is the state I'm in on various issues, I don't see a problem not committing to something until you're sure what you want. I would suggest trying to be comfortable with the idea that you're not sure, but that isn't something one can just do.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
And quality of counselors: this has occurred to me. I just don't know what to do about it. It's frustrating/upsetting/depressing to try a counselor and find that you've poured your heart out to a blank robot-person and you wish you could put it away again. It's difficult to find the motivation to try again. Plus there's the insurance/copay/cost stuff.. Waaah waaah waah. I know I should suck it up and go find a new counselor, that is a sane thing to do.
I've had to sort through many bad and not so good therapists (the bad or barely decent psychologists were rarer), to find one that has appeared to not only know what she's doing, but who also seems to care. In the very least, I think you should sort through a few. The therapist I currently have is a very good resource for helping me learn how NT people act and react to many things, making sure that I can mimic the appropriate responses so that I'm affecting other people as little as possible.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
The reasons you get out of bed in the morning are not ones I can relate to, or aren't motivating enough (good point of comparison to see how a healthy mind functions though, thank you). Except the bounced on by doggies thing--one thing that makes it hard to get OUT of bed is that about 15 minutes before I have to get up, my cats all come and get under the blankets with me and snuggle, and I don't want to leave...
I don't catagorize these things into healthy vs. unhealthy, they are just some people's preferences.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
I agree with you about the suckiness of modern life. That is one of the things that distresses me--and not just for me, but I think it contributes to the high rates of depression in America. My generation, anyway, grew up thinking we were beautiful, smart, talented little f---ing snowflakes, and that we could do and be anything we wanted. And when elementary school sucked, we were told wait for middle school, it's awesome, and when that sucked, it was wait for high school, it's awesome; and when high school sucked, we were told wait for college, it's awesome AND if you're good and smart and talented, you can go to any school you wish.... Which is a lie, because of money. In college, we were told "study what you love! You'll be great at it!" and that is terrible advice. When we were overworked and poor in college, we were told just wait until you have a 9-5 job (lie), no homework (lie), and money to play with (semi-lie, student loans, rent, utilities and gasoline eat most of my low-middle-class salary). Everyone I went to school with was also under the impression that if you go to college, you can get a job... Finding my job was very, very difficult, and the rest of my peers have wore jobs or no job. Student loans are also a rip-off... I think they are to keep you too tied down to just be a vagrant hippie or something.
I currently have a very good job where most of the time, I'm interested in the work, but that doesn't remove the sense of working merely so that I can keep working. The "study what you love" advice I think is only sometimes true, it depends what you're willing to sacrifice. I'd more suggest finding a way to do what you enjoy than putting stress on making a living off of what you enjoy.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
So I often wonder, if that's the situation, maybe depression is rational and the rest of you are kidding yourselves... But I'd rather kid myself if I could!
People may kid themselves and ignore the bad things in life, but that might just be a sign that those things aren't important to them, and may not be that they're pushing those things off to the side or otherwise ignoring them.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
Depression self-fulfilling: Yes. Not sure what to do about that. Don't know the future: Yes, but I can't make myself particularly interested in it... Because I firmly believe that life involves more putting-up-with than pleasure. Things getting ENOUGH better that I would be PLEASED seems unlikely--and I will acknowledge that this is a snotty, nasty notion, the product of my depression and my unreasonable expectations of life.
I'm not depressed, but I'm right along the same path here. Looking forward to pleasure is not something I can do, and even if there would be some time in the future where things get "better" for me, I don't see how it could possibly outweigh the rest of my time wasted in a state waiting around for it or seeking it.

Quote from: Hattiecakes
It's a lot easier said than done to use your life for what pleases you--am I wrong? The realities of work, money, lack of opportunity, inadequate skills or abilities, the realities of who you know and who you don't...
You can have anything you want, but not everything you want. We all have to make decisions in life, how much and what does one sacrifice for immediate things, friends, family and future things. The answers aren't easy to find and usually require at least a little bit of trial and error... plus to complicate things, we keep changing. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, because I don't assume that I know best.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Siz on November 07, 2011, 10:55:28 PM
I think Asmo's on the right lines. Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 07, 2011, 11:21:03 PM
Spiritual one, that Asmo, aint he?  ;D

BTW, on their site, I found this (http://www.thefuckitway.com/chocolate.htm). Methink I'll get me it for my birthday.  ;D
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 08:05:09 PM
Hey. Not an atheist, but do/did struggle with suicide attempts and depression. My first real drop, I started reading the Bible.... Needless to say that was a bad idea and i never tried that method of coping again. (Started reading in Revelation) Second drop, tried alcohol, (yet another dumb idea). Most of my 8th grade year is a blur to me now. Then my third drop, I tried a mixture of stupidity, pills, alcohol, cutting, drugs, and any guy I could get my hands on. Again, another stupid thing to do. Once I got over that though, I started channeling my energy, (Or lack there of) into things that I love to do, like writing. Now, about 5 months later, I'm writing songs for my main band and playing in a side project and starting to genuinely smile again.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2011, 08:18:36 PM
Hey. Not an atheist, but do/did struggle with suicide attempts and depression. My first real drop, I started reading the Bible.... Needless to say that was a bad idea and i never tried that method of coping again. (Started reading in Revelation) Second drop, tried alcohol, (yet another dumb idea). Most of my 8th grade year is a blur to me now. Then my third drop, I tried a mixture of stupidity, pills, alcohol, cutting, drugs, and any guy I could get my hands on. Again, another stupid thing to do. Once I got over that though, I started channeling my energy, (Or lack there of) into things that I love to do, like writing. Now, about 5 months later, I'm writing songs for my main band and playing in a side project and starting to genuinely smile again.
Not bad...

Although I wouldn't call alcohol, pills, cutting and sex with anything that moves stupid on general bases - for someone somewhere, it might actually work. Then again... Sometimes coping and/or making shit work is just not the objective.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 08:37:26 PM
Hey. Not an atheist, but do/did struggle with suicide attempts and depression. My first real drop, I started reading the Bible.... Needless to say that was a bad idea and i never tried that method of coping again. (Started reading in Revelation) Second drop, tried alcohol, (yet another dumb idea). Most of my 8th grade year is a blur to me now. Then my third drop, I tried a mixture of stupidity, pills, alcohol, cutting, drugs, and any guy I could get my hands on. Again, another stupid thing to do. Once I got over that though, I started channeling my energy, (Or lack there of) into things that I love to do, like writing. Now, about 5 months later, I'm writing songs for my main band and playing in a side project and starting to genuinely smile again.
Not bad...

Although I wouldn't call alcohol, pills, cutting and sex with anything that moves stupid on general bases - for someone somewhere, it might actually work. Then again... Sometimes coping and/or making shit work is just not the objective.
Well, it wasn't really helping me cope, it was, more or less a crutch to keep myself within an inch of life. And considering that at the time is escalated to the point of the mixture I was not older than 13, it wasn't a good thing. I'm just lucky I never got caught.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2011, 08:43:11 PM
I made it to fourteen without cutting. A good way of getting them endrogenous drugs fast and that psychological bloodthirst quenched, if you ask me.

Some people seemed to think it was a "cry for help" or some such... Oh, get a life an' mind your own business, assholes! It was my way of helping myself, not asking others to fix what they could not. Annoyed the shit out of me, as I seem to remember, since I wanted not to be helped, but to be left alone.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 08:53:50 PM
Some people seemed to think it was a "cry for help" or some such... Oh, get a life an' mind your own business, assholes! It was my way of helping myself, not asking others to fix what they could not. Annoyed the shit out of me, as I seem to remember, since I wanted not to be helped, but to be left alone.
I know what you mean. A chick in my class saw some of the cuts one day, and told the teacher. Luckily for me, (or unfortunately, depending on how you see it) she didn't care and would have rather had me dead than in her class.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2011, 08:58:26 PM
I know what you mean. A chick in my class saw some of the cuts one day, and told the teacher. Luckily for me, (or unfortunately, depending on how you see it) she didn't care and would have rather had me dead than in her class.
The people like that chick were high on my killing spree list - if you care so much, try asking whether I want to be helped or not before you run off to get me a nice padded room. Perhaps long life and good health are neither my objectives nor things I value.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 09:02:34 PM
Perhaps long life and good health are neither my objectives nor things I value.
Someone who gets me. I remember the first time in my class that we discussed how old we wanted to be and who we wanted to be with when we died. A lot of the responses were the typical teenage dream, wanting to be old (around 80 or 90) and die in their lovers arms... I was shunned and called an emo freak for a month because I said i wanted to die by 50 and I wanted to die either screwing some dude senseless or having a wreckless fun time, like skydiving, or bridge jumping. The assholes sent me to the counselor for a week before and after school, and at lunch.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2011, 09:25:10 PM
I was shunned and called an emo freak for a month because I said i wanted to die by 50 and I wanted to die either screwing some dude senseless or having a wreckless fun time, like skydiving, or bridge jumping. The assholes sent me to the counselor for a week before and after school, and at lunch.
50 good years are better than 90 mediocre ones.

And if all you get is shitty years, then sometimes even 20 is far too many.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 09:30:02 PM
50 good years are better than 90 mediocre ones.
And if all you get is shitty years, then sometimes even 20 is far too many.
I agree completely. And yet, everyone else thought that I was gonna go and kill myself simple because of that belief. But then again, most sixth graders are really unknowledgeable.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on November 10, 2011, 09:35:09 PM
I agree completely. And yet, everyone else thought that I was gonna go and kill myself simple because of that belief. But then again, most sixth graders are really unknowledgeable.
Kids are idiots... Understandable, that. Forgiveable, even. Trouble is, far too often they grow out of their pants faster than they grow out of their idiocy.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 12:26:55 AM
Trouble is, far too often they grow out of their pants faster than they grow out of their idiocy.
So true. Sometime, if I see some of the ones who still remember that they'll ask me to show them my wrist, to which I reply, "My wrists are fine it's my fingers that hurt." and proceed to flip them off.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: pytheas on January 19, 2012, 02:19:15 PM
@Hattiecakes
Quote
1) I genuinely don't understand why it isn't more prevalent. The fact that it seems so unthinkable to people is the only thing that makes me think I'm missing something...

 
the termination of what is called the Egoic self causes fear usually. You may be missing the usual fear mediating chemical signals. Unthinkable it becomes as soon as some, any joy can be derived form life
Quote
2) Is suicide only unthinkable to people as a result of religious cultural hangover, and it isn't unthinkable to a truly secular person?
people which are severely unipolar do not hesitate, they try once and succeed. More on truly secular below. The motives are emotional and do not obey rational thought analysis neither imposed "belief" dogma
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3) Basically: Suicide seems like a rational, even attractive (sometimes) option for me--to what extent is this my secularism, and to what extent my depression?
Author Albert Camus. Book = the myth of sisiphus. In there he deliberates why the single most important question is why should we NOT kill ourselves. He answers with some difficulty. It is hard philosophy from an extremely clever and insightful man. in a more common psychanalysis attempt Yalom's book entitled garden of epicurus puts forth some argument about how we can dispel the fear of death. it may have an effect on you  
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4) Sometimes I think it's this litigious society that keeps anyone from telling me "No, there is technically no reason one should not kill oneself if one wishes."

There is technically no reason if you so wish, I will refrain from commenting on certain societies
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5) But I have surfed a few atheist blogs and they seem to operate under the assumption that suicide is never an option--unless you are old or terminally ill. Why the distinction?
because the key word is intolerable pain, beyond alterations in perspective, with the knowledge of morbidity= what pains you now will and is killing you. Depression is an affliction of perspective, distorted looking glasses. Be sure though if anguish becomes unmanagable everyone self-terminates, even masochists
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6) I am interested to hear any unsentimental atheist notions about why suicide is or isn't acceptable as a solution to major depressive disorder or anything else; also interested in atheist stuff to live for, and atheist "meaning of life."
the funeral monument of a guy named sikilos had a musical script with a poem, from the first ones 200bc. find it, listen to it on youtube. it says, "as long as you live shine within the notion that you cannot spend all your moments in sorrow, life has just a short while to last, Time will demand your ending

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7) I would like to gauge whether or to what extent my inclination toward suicidal thought is mental illness, or whether it's a rational reaction to a world that I do not enjoy living in
very good point. An inflamed swollen face is a NORMAL reaction to the stinging of a wasp. Are you certain you have exhausted the options that exist to extract joy?the mental illness is the inability to attain joy by any means. we have basic human needs that might not be addressed for you to fulfill your existence. A word of caution on substitutes. they can go only so far in addressing particular needs that require particular provisions. Find physical human friends , give help and be loved- more later
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 04:04:12 PM
Just to point out, you are not a moderator, so could you change the fire engine red to either black with proper quotes or something else?
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Ali on January 19, 2012, 04:36:32 PM
Did she ever come back?
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: pytheas on January 19, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
Just to point out, you are not a moderator, so could you change the fire engine red to either black with proper quotes or something else?
sorry, didn't mean to step on any toes, simply unaware of the colour-coded rank significance. Was unable at the time to use the keyboard/mouse effectively and I certainly prefer the look with the blue quotes and black response.
everlearning
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: pytheas on January 19, 2012, 04:42:02 PM
Did she ever come back?
so long as her original post is not deleted
her lifespan extends with that of this forum
I would prefer not to know unless it's her telling
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 05:00:48 PM
Just to point out, you are not a moderator, so could you change the fire engine red to either black with proper quotes or something else?
sorry, didn't mean to step on any toes, simply unaware of the colour-coded rank significance. Was unable at the time to use the keyboard/mouse effectively and I certainly prefer the look with the blue quotes and black response.
everlearning
The staff use red when issuing warning or giving other messages with their staff hats on, so when someone sees a sea of red, the mind does jump to staff business.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Ali on January 19, 2012, 05:12:46 PM
Did she ever come back?
so long as her original post is not deleted
her lifespan extends with that of this forum
I would prefer not to know unless it's her telling

True enough.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Tank on January 20, 2012, 09:54:51 AM
She was active for less than 24 hours and just made the two posts in this thread.
Title: Re: Noob with dark question (not a HAPPY atheist)
Post by: Too Few Lions on January 20, 2012, 10:37:40 AM
I hope she's OK, and still living. It was a very heartfelt post, and I feel for her.