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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: vac_id on November 08, 2019, 10:03:17 PM

Title: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: vac_id on November 08, 2019, 10:03:17 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Magdalena on November 08, 2019, 10:37:55 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
Hello, vac_id,
Welcome to the forum.  :computerwave:

Are you an atheist?
~Just curious.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Bluenose on November 08, 2019, 11:28:25 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

Hello vac_id, welcomer to the madhouse.

To answer your question: The absolutely abject lack of any evidence for any sort of supernatural being.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Recusant on November 08, 2019, 11:29:30 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

Hello, vac_id.

Though it's good to get to know each other a bit before diving into possibly contentious topics, you've jumped straight in. OK

Your questions are straight-forward and I will give answers in the same vein.

"What does it mean to be atheist?"

An atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in deities.

"What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist?"

The absence of any compelling evidence in favor of the existence of deities. I could give other reasons, but you asked for a single reason, so that's what I've supplied.

Now for a question from me: Why do you ask?

Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 09, 2019, 12:07:39 AM
Er...welcome.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Icarus on November 09, 2019, 12:34:33 AM
Quickie answer:  There is no compelling reason to be an atheist while there are many compelling reasons to dismiss theism.  We have no suitably cogent alternative than to be non believers. 

Welcome to the forum Vac_id.
You may be pleased to learn that we are seldom militant, evil, or overtly stubborn about our absence of belief in a deity.  Indeed our forum has only one among the numerous topic threads that deal with religion.  We are more into Music, art, photography, culinary arts, sciencey things  and a bit of politics. Most of all we are friendly and caring individuals which is a fact that you will soon see for yourself.  You can see for yourself by examining the topic list. ..........Please do look into our general attitudes to decide whether you wish to be a productive and thoughtful contributor to this international group.

Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: No one on November 09, 2019, 01:06:02 AM
Baby recipes.
Being able to rape, maim, and murder without feeling guilty.
Barbequed kittens.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 09, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
I can peel, dice and stew-up a disabled baby without being eternally damned. So liberating!
Or, I can choose not to for my own self-serving reasons unrelated to any judgemental overlord.

You're not here to judge are you, vac_id?

Welcome.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 09, 2019, 01:40:43 AM
Baby recipes.
Being able to rape, maim, and murder without feeling guilty.
Barbequed kittens.
Sick bastard. Kittens are not for consumption.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 09, 2019, 03:02:07 AM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

Welcome! Hint for the OP. ALL CAPS paints a poor picture of the poster, as it seems like yelling. Having written literally miles of FORTRAN code, I find that an amusing statement to make, as that was the only case we could program in, back in the day, before "C" extensions. As for WHY, the answer has already been provided by the worthies posting above in this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: hermes2015 on November 09, 2019, 03:13:14 AM
Hello and welcome to HAF, vac_id.

I will give the same answers as my esteemed colleagues above. Tell us what your standpoint is.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 09, 2019, 08:09:15 AM
I agree with most of the others here, since that is the baseline of atheism -- lack of a compelling reason to believe in gods (or for me, anything supernatural).  Atheism isn't usually a claim but simply an opinion about others claims.  There are exceptions, tho not on this forum as far as I can tell.

I do have to draw a line at BBQ kittens.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Magdalena on November 09, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Baby recipes.
Being able to rape, maim, and murder without feeling guilty.
Barbequed kittens.
Sick bastard. Kittens are not for consumption.
:snicker:
You guys are funny.
When I joined the forum I made a similar mistake, I thought a shot of Tequila and a baby was an excellent combination but someone with more experience in atheist matters corrected me.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: billy rubin on November 09, 2019, 10:52:48 AM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

Welcome! Hint for the OP. ALL CAPS paints a poor picture of the poster, as it seems like yelling. Having written literally miles of FORTRAN code, I find that an amusing statement to make, as that was the only case we could program in, back in the day, before "C" extensions. As for WHY, the answer has already been provided by the worthies posting above in this thread.  ;)

fortran!

// sysin dd *!

fortran was worthless unless you did the JCL correctly

you must remember cards
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Tank on November 09, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
What does it mean to be atheist?

To be woke to reality.

Quote
What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

The utter BA spouted by theists as a collective. They don't even believe each others BS! As individuals the vast majority are ok.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 09, 2019, 12:26:50 PM
Baby recipes.
Being able to rape, maim, and murder without feeling guilty.
Barbequed kittens.
Sick bastard. Kittens are not for consumption.
:snicker:
You guys are funny.
When I joined the forum I made a similar mistake, I thought a shot of Tequila and a baby was an excellent combination but someone with more experience in atheist matters corrected me.
What IS the correct pairing?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Bad Penny II on November 09, 2019, 02:21:36 PM
No god's talked to me and humans lie.
That's a bit harsh.
No god's talked to me and humans make up stuff.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: vac_id on November 09, 2019, 07:35:14 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
I can peel, dice and stew-up a disabled baby without being eternally damned. So liberating!
Or, I can choose not to for my own self-serving reasons unrelated to any judgemental overlord.

You're not here to judge are you, vac_id?

Welcome.


Ha, ha. No, I'm not judging. I can't say I don't ever judge, but I do try not to do so.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: No one on November 09, 2019, 07:43:51 PM
Tequila and baby go together, just make baby fajitas. Newborns make the best fajitas.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: vac_id on November 09, 2019, 08:10:38 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
Hello, vac_id,
Welcome to the forum.  :computerwave:

Are you an atheist?
~Just curious.

Here's the thing, I think I am, but I'm not sure. It's confusing to me because there does seem to be a distinction that people don't often make between the concepts of "believing something is true" and "having a concrete reason to think something as true". For instance, someone might claim to believe something, but their actions would indicate that they think otherwise - or, inversely - someone might claim not to believe something while their actions similarly betray them. Why is this? Because there's some dissonance between their beliefs and what they can reasonably regard to be true, given their understanding and experience. When someone doesn't act in accordance with professed beliefs, what is the reason for that? Some say that it is that they don't "really believe what they say the do", but it's more complex than that. Possibly they believe, but they also, more rationally, doubt their beliefs or their validity. People are both rational and irrational and some have a preference for acting upon rational thinking and for others they may have a preference for acting upon irrational, beliefs despite rational reasons for actually thinking such beliefs are true.

I don't buy the idea just yet that there are people who really do suspend belief in things they can't rationally believe to be true, but I'm still open to the possibility.

You see, I think I believe in God, but I also acknowledge that I have no concrete reason, no tangible reason, to believe that this is true. One person might attempt to correct me and say that I actually do not believe in God, because it doesn't make any sense for me to believe something I don't actually think of as being true. Another might say that I'm superstitious, that I do believe in God even if I know better that I have no reason to. Still others would look at what I do and infer what my true thoughts or beliefs must be, with the assumption that I might say I believe or think one thing, but do another, so I must not really believe or think that thing. But it's confusing because there's so much ambiguity in the concept of a belief. What exactly is a belief? If one were to Google the word, belief, this is what comes up:

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"

Neither of these is the same as <i>thinking</i> something is true. This leaves room for "accepting" or having "faith" that something is true, despite thought to the contrary.

I think self-professed agnostics are a subset of atheists, given such a definition of atheism being "not holding a belief in a creator", but then we're all agnostics if we conflate the idea of belief with thinking something is true. Christians and members of other faiths have "faith" that something is true. They haven't logically deduced that what they believe is true, so they don't actually <i>think</i> that what they believe is true. So are the religious also agnostic? But then they would be atheists as well.

So why do so many people argue over who's correct when we all essentially agree on the same points, but use different terms or apply different emphasis?

It's like, "I don't KNOW something is true, but I BELIEVE it to be!" What does that even mean? It's not necessarily that someone saying this is outright lying; although they might be, if not to who they're speaking to, then possibly themselves; but that there really is a nuance between literally thinking something is true and believing that something is true.

So who is a proper atheist? Someone who says "I don't believe in God" because they don't think there is a God? Someone who says "I believe in God" when they still can't reasonably think there is a God (at least by the same reason the other would use)?

And people can't simply choose to believe other than they do. An atheist can no more force themselves to believe in God if they don't than a theist can force themselves to disbelieve in a God if they do.

So, I'm just trying to work this out.

The idea of believing something is so complex to me, because someone could deny believing something by virtue of the fact that they acknowledge that they have no reason to think something is true. But does that mean that they don't believe? That they don't act as if something is true despite not having sufficient evidence to conclude that something is true?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: vac_id on November 09, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?

Hello, vac_id.

Though it's good to get to know each other a bit before diving into possibly contentious topics, you've jumped straight in. OK

Your questions are straight-forward and I will give answers in the same vein.

"What does it mean to be atheist?"

An atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in deities.

"What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist?"

The absence of any compelling evidence in favor of the existence of deities. I could give other reasons, but you asked for a single reason, so that's what I've supplied.

Now for a question from me: Why do you ask?


Sorry, I'm impatient. Thank you for your response. The second question may not be as well-formed as it could be, but it is still interesting to see what people think about it. There may not be a single reason, but if there was one you would single as as being sufficient, it would be "the absence of evidence".

I ask because I think I'm an atheist, but I'm not sure. However, I question that beliefs are formed on the basis of evidence, and indeed this is a flaw most often attributed to theists. Someone may very well believe something despite a lack of evidence or disbelieve something in the face of evidence for its existence. I don't think it's the belief that really matters as such a thing is motivated by subconscious drives that may be outside of our direct influence to alter. What does seem to be more relevant in whether someone considers themselves to be a believer or not is their temperament in choosing to categorize themselves based upon their believes as opposed to what they can rationally believe to be true. I think this is a conflict that exists in most people, religious or irreligious.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Magdalena on November 09, 2019, 08:54:46 PM
Baby recipes.
Being able to rape, maim, and murder without feeling guilty.
Barbequed kittens.
Sick bastard. Kittens are not for consumption.
:snicker:
You guys are funny.
When I joined the forum I made a similar mistake, I thought a shot of Tequila and a baby was an excellent combination but someone with more experience in atheist matters corrected me.
What IS the correct pairing?
They didn't suggest anything, they just told me the baby/Tequila combination wasn't appropriate.  :notsure:
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Magdalena on November 09, 2019, 08:59:45 PM
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
Hello, vac_id,
Welcome to the forum.  :computerwave:

Are you an atheist?
~Just curious.

Here's the thing, I think I am, but I'm not sure. It's confusing to me because there does seem to be a distinction that people don't often make between the concepts of "believing something is true" and "having a concrete reason to think something as true". For instance, someone might claim to believe something, but their actions would indicate that they think otherwise - or, inversely - someone might claim not to believe something while their actions similarly betray them. Why is this? Because there's some dissonance between their beliefs and what they can reasonably regard to be true, given their understanding and experience. When someone doesn't act in accordance with professed beliefs, what is the reason for that? Some say that it is that they don't "really believe what they say the do", but it's more complex than that. Possibly they believe, but they also, more rationally, doubt their beliefs or their validity. People are both rational and irrational and some have a preference for acting upon rational thinking and for others they may have a preference for acting upon irrational, beliefs despite rational reasons for actually thinking such beliefs are true.

I don't buy the idea just yet that there are people who really do suspend belief in things they can't rationally believe to be true, but I'm still open to the possibility.

You see, I think I believe in God, but I also acknowledge that I have no concrete reason, no tangible reason, to believe that this is true. One person might attempt to correct me and say that I actually do not believe in God, because it doesn't make any sense for me to believe something I don't actually think of as being true. Another might say that I'm superstitious, that I do believe in God even if I know better that I have no reason to. Still others would look at what I do and infer what my true thoughts or beliefs must be, with the assumption that I might say I believe or think one thing, but do another, so I must not really believe or think that thing. But it's confusing because there's so much ambiguity in the concept of a belief. What exactly is a belief? If one were to Google the word, belief, this is what comes up:

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"

Neither of these is the same as <i>thinking</i> something is true. This leaves room for "accepting" or having "faith" that something is true, despite thought to the contrary.

I think self-professed agnostics are a subset of atheists, given such a definition of atheism being "not holding a belief in a creator", but then we're all agnostics if we conflate the idea of belief with thinking something is true. Christians and members of other faiths have "faith" that something is true. They haven't logically deduced that what they believe is true, so they don't actually <i>think</i> that what they believe is true. So are the religious also agnostic? But then they would be atheists as well.

So why do so many people argue over who's correct when we all essentially agree on the same points, but use different terms or apply different emphasis?

It's like, "I don't KNOW something is true, but I BELIEVE it to be!" What does that even mean? It's not necessarily that someone saying this is outright lying; although they might be, if not to who they're speaking to, then possibly themselves; but that there really is a nuance between literally thinking something is true and believing that something is true.

So who is a proper atheist? Someone who says "I don't believe in God" because they don't think there is a God? Someone who says "I believe in God" when they still can't reasonably think there is a God (at least by the same reason the other would use)?

And people can't simply choose to believe other than they do. An atheist can no more force themselves to believe in God if they don't than a theist can force themselves to disbelieve in a God if they do.

So, I'm just trying to work this out.

The idea of believing something is so complex to me, because someone could deny believing something by virtue of the fact that they acknowledge that they have no reason to think something is true. But does that mean that they don't believe? That they don't act as if something is true despite not having sufficient evidence to conclude that something is true?
Well, I think you're on your way to finding an answer to your questions:
What does it mean to be atheist?

What, in your opinion, is the single-most compelling reason to be an atheist, if there is one?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: billy rubin on November 09, 2019, 11:22:25 PM

It's like, "I don't KNOW something is true, but I BELIEVE it to be!" What does that even mean? It's not necessarily that someone saying this is outright lying; although they might be, if not to who they're speaking to, then possibly themselves; but that there really is a nuance between literally thinking something is true and believing that something is true.


hi vac

^^^thjis is how i approach belief/knowledge every day. i dpon't have any problem with the solipsism.

i BELIEVE that the earth is round. but i don't KNOW that.

to me, knowledge consists only of things that i can detect experientially, through my senses. on a case by case basis, i might be convinced that things exist that i derive through reason, but thgen again, i miight not.

so people can tell me all day that the earthj  is round, and i can happily go through my life with a provisional acceptance of that information. but i would draw the line at knowing it, until i could somehow experience it for myself in some conclusive manner.

for the same reasons, i don't call myself an atheist. i use the term agnostic, in the old looser sense of an idea that cannot be known to be true or false, for all practical purposes. i see no evidence of gods, but that does not allow me to assert their absence. fairies too.

why are you interested in this question? has something jogged your curiosity, or are you at a crossroads in your view of the universe?

Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Bad Penny II on November 10, 2019, 01:30:32 AM
In less enlightened times we had our gods and those guys over there had theirs.
Ours were better, theirs were rubbish, they might have had power in their own country but not here.
Now of course there is one god.
But
Shut about the three business.  >:(
It all seem a bit ridiculous to me.

(http://i.imgur.com/dBwow.png)

Being an atheist is a negative, it's not being something, we could argue again if it's an ism but why bother?
Why would I believe in a god, even if I could and which one?  Sorry, sorry of course there is only one, which iteration of the one though?  I don't want to survive bushfire only to find myself on some goodly godly religious pyre.


Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Recusant on November 10, 2019, 03:11:18 AM
Sorry, I'm impatient. Thank you for your response. The second question may not be as well-formed as it could be, but it is still interesting to see what people think about it. There may not be a single reason, but if there was one you would single as as being sufficient, it would be "the absence of evidence".

I ask because I think I'm an atheist, but I'm not sure. However, I question that beliefs are formed on the basis of evidence, and indeed this is a flaw most often attributed to theists. Someone may very well believe something despite a lack of evidence or disbelieve something in the face of evidence for its existence. I don't think it's the belief that really matters as such a thing is motivated by subconscious drives that may be outside of our direct influence to alter. What does seem to be more relevant in whether someone considers themselves to be a believer or not is their temperament in choosing to categorize themselves based upon their believes as opposed to what they can rationally believe to be true. I think this is a conflict that exists in most people, religious or irreligious.

Thank you in return. You make an excellent point when you question whether beliefs are formed on the basis of evidence. Indeed, many of them are not. On the other hand, one may lose or discard a belief when evidence to support it is insufficient, or completely absent. Inquiring into the basis of a belief can be a drastic step. Making such an inquiry could be breaking with the category of "believer" that you describe.

People are good at convincing themselves that they have evidence to support their beliefs. In some cases the evidence may be equivocal at best. Regardless of that, in their view they have evidence and consider their belief to be completely rational, or almost entirely so.

I don't know about subconscious drives. Mostly belief in deities appears to result from social conditioning. If my parents, family, friends, and the dominant forces in my society are theist, it's likely that I will be as well. It can provide comfort to be a part of a faith community. In times of grief, faith can be a great solace. Plenty of people who've lost their faith regret it to some extent.

Personally I don't think it's immensely important whether one believes in deities or not. In my opinion it's much more important to try to live a good life and minimise the harm one brings to the world.

Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: vac_id on November 10, 2019, 06:19:10 AM

It's like, "I don't KNOW something is true, but I BELIEVE it to be!" What does that even mean? It's not necessarily that someone saying this is outright lying; although they might be, if not to who they're speaking to, then possibly themselves; but that there really is a nuance between literally thinking something is true and believing that something is true.


hi vac

^^^thjis is how i approach belief/knowledge every day. i dpon't have any problem with the solipsism.

i BELIEVE that the earth is round. but i don't KNOW that.

to me, knowledge consists only of things that i can detect experientially, through my senses. on a case by case basis, i might be convinced that things exist that i derive through reason, but thgen again, i miight not.

so people can tell me all day that the earthj  is round, and i can happily go through my life with a provisional acceptance of that information. but i would draw the line at knowing it, until i could somehow experience it for myself in some conclusive manner.

for the same reasons, i don't call myself an atheist. i use the term agnostic, in the old looser sense of an idea that cannot be known to be true or false, for all practical purposes. i see no evidence of gods, but that does not allow me to assert their absence. fairies too.

why are you interested in this question? has something jogged your curiosity, or are you at a crossroads in your view of the universe?



That is a fair point. Maybe I need to organize my beliefs based on what I can accept as true due to accepting the assertion of an authority and what I cannot, when such beliefs are not things I can verify by my own experience. I WOULD say that I am at a crossroads. That is a good way of putting it. However, the concept of God is an elusive one and one in which I don't believe can be adequately compared to cryptids or elementals. There is difficulty enough in dispensing in a false belief when evidence can be furnished to the contrary. Even more so when contrary evidence would essentially have to prove a negative, which cannot be expected. And still, even more so when one would have to prove a negative about an entity that by definition could never be tangibly observed. A fairy may be something that could be observed, while never seeing it doesn't prove that it's not still out there somewhere. But at least a fairy is assumed to be accessible in some way through our senses if one does exist. God is not. God is something that transcends our limitations to perceive it, by definition. It can almost trivially be asserted that God does indeed exist by virtue of a definition as such that considers it to be whatever is transcendent. It seems exceedingly likely that there are things that transcend our understanding and ability to ever observe them, but perhaps this is not the spirit of what is meant by God. So it's almost like one could believe in God and not believe in God at the same time, all while acknowledging the apparent inaccessibility of such information to beings like ourselves.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: billy rubin on November 10, 2019, 09:54:50 AM
yet there are theists who have direct mystical experiencez of god, vac. i know some who tell me about them.


true or not, not all theism requires gods to be distant and untouchable.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2019, 08:19:15 PM
yet there are theists who have direct mystical experiencez of god, vac. i know some who tell me about them.


true or not, not all theism requires gods to be distant and untouchable.

I understand deism to mean that god is distant and untouchable, whereas theism is more about a personal god. :notsure:
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: billy rubin on November 10, 2019, 10:11:15 PM
yet there are theists who have direct mystical experiencez of god, vac. i know some who tell me about them.


true or not, not all theism requires gods to be distant and untouchable.

I understand deism to mean that god is distant and untouchable, whereas theism is more about a personal god. :notsure:

i just divide the question into theism and non-theism. but maybe that's just a quaker thing. quaker non-theism doesn't rule out transcendant beings, it just means that the question might not be interpretable in the traditional terms. so a non-theist might be a pantheist, or a panentheist, an agnostic, or an atheist. people muddle over the definitions, but i would rather just ask people what they mean.

and the quakers who have direct experiences seem to me to mostly not have them, but want to have had them, and to believe that they have had them. with one significant exception that i don't understand.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 10, 2019, 10:18:00 PM
yet there are theists who have direct mystical experiencez of god, vac. i know some who tell me about them.


true or not, not all theism requires gods to be distant and untouchable.

I understand deism to mean that god is distant and untouchable, whereas theism is more about a personal god. :notsure:

i just divide the question into theism and non-theism. but maybe that's just a quaker thing. quaker non-theism doesn't rule out transcendant beings, it just means that the question might not be interpretable in the traditional terms. so a non-theist might be a pantheist, or a panentheist, an agnostic, or an atheist. people muddle over the definitions, but i would rather just ask people what they mean.

and the quakers who have direct experiences seem to me to mostly not have them, but want to have had them, and to believe that they have had them. with one significant exception that i don't understand.

Yeah, if there's one thing I've learnt from numerous interactions with believers is that you should first ask them what they mean by the word they use to define themselves. :lol:
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 15, 2019, 04:27:49 PM
To the Old Seers, an Atheist is one who doesn't recognize theism, or find no truth in the existence of a super human entity that rules the universe. The Universe is ruled by the natural laws of physics. We also concluded that the book (Bible) is true for the most part but is misinterpreted to facilitate the concept of material and superficial beliefs , and religions were started by those who forced rulership over the people for their own use. Religions existed from ancient times and were formed from the ignorance of how the material universe exists and function. Superstitions still rule the religions to this day.
  The Seers find that there is an alternative interpretation of biblical creation based in psychology rather then material structure. That is- Biblical creation is an explanation of a mental structure rather then a material universe. We fond from this discovery that the ancient peoples that tell the story became aware of the mental processes that are of human and animal is what makes up a person. That means that creation is the process that makes one a person.  Every person is a psychological fact. Biblical creation is the explanation of that discovery made by the ancestors of the writers of the book.
  From this understanding one can then realize what the cause of the the social problems the world of man is under. It's a simple Animal vs human mental problem. One also discovers that social problems exist because the world has a skewed understanding of what Human is.
Explained here. https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 15, 2019, 04:42:41 PM
 :'(
To the Old Seers, an Atheist is one who doesn't recognize theism, or find no truth in the existence of a super human entity that rules the universe. The Universe is ruled by the natural laws of physics. We also concluded that the book (Bible) is true for the most part but is misinterpreted to facilitate the concept of material and superficial beliefs , and religions were started by those who forced rulership over the people for their own use. Religions existed from ancient times and were formed from the ignorance of how the material universe exists and function. Superstitions still rule the religions to this day.
  The Seers find that there is an alternative interpretation of biblical creation based in psychology rather then material structure. That is- Biblical creation is an explanation of a mental structure rather then a material universe. We fond from this discovery that the ancient peoples that tell the story became aware of the mental processes that are of human and animal is what makes up a person. That means that creation is the process that makes one a person.  Every person is a psychological fact. Biblical creation is the explanation of that discovery made by the ancestors of the writers of the book.
  From this understanding one can then realize what the cause of the the social problems the world of man is under. It's a simple Animal vs human mental problem. One also discovers that social problems exist because the world has a skewed understanding of what Human is.
Explained here. https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers
(http://www.digitalmediatree.com/library/image/12/beautiful_mind_3.JPG?w=630)

 ::)
Aren't you dead yet, Seer?!

I rather like the Animal side of me. Ave Satanas!
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 15, 2019, 10:09:49 PM
Nope, not gone yet, and may never be. :-) I take it you think we are Christians, wwweeel somewhat, everyone is somewhat a Christian. We are Atheists. Deciphering the book doesn't make one a Christian. Can an Atheist be a Christian?  Sure can. Christianity and "human" are the same thing. Those who claim to be Christians really aren't. No one is a true Christian at this time. We don't claim to be Christians, we simply know what it is. We all live in a world (sorry about the preaching, the intent is to be informative) that follows and prefers animal mental precepts. A christian is one who sets aside the animal mind and aspires to the human mind. That's nearly impossible in the present ways of the world at large. We seers as everyone else must remain animal minded in order to live here. But we try to be human whenever possible. So, from our knowledge everyone has christian/human tendencies. The trick is--to be human at all times.
 The world isn't going to be human for a while yet so we have to live with it. Here's something for you to contemplate about your site that I recognized way back when I first came here. Q- what makes this site more human then other Atheist sites,----you're more Christian, get it. It's obvious that the operators of this site demand you treat each other humanly, right. And that's why we Seers know that those claiming Christianity aren't Christians because they aspire to the animal mind as everyone else. While we Seers don't aspire to the animal mentality we have to go along with it as that's the what the world basically relys on in it's processes. The animal mind and the human mind together is what creates one's personality. But I digress ( what the heck ever that means, I'll look it up, I think I got it right) and leave things as is. Take care.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 15, 2019, 10:14:21 PM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 15, 2019, 10:22:37 PM
Nope, not gone yet, and may never be. :-) I take it you think we are Christians, wwweeel somewhat, everyone is somewhat a Christian. We are Atheists. Deciphering the book doesn't make one a Christian. Can an Atheist be a Christian?  Sure can. Christianity and "human" are the same thing. Those who claim to be Christians really aren't. No one is a true Christian at this time. We don't claim to be Christians, we simply know what it is. We all live in a world (sorry about the preaching, the intent is to be informative) that follows and prefers animal mental precepts. A christian is one who sets aside the animal mind and aspires to the human mind. That's nearly impossible in the present ways of the world at large. We seers as everyone else must remain animal minded in order to live here. But we try to be human whenever possible. So, from our knowledge everyone has christian/human tendencies. The trick is--to be human at all times.
 The world isn't going to be human for a while yet so we have to live with it. Here's something for you to contemplate about your site that I recognized way back when I first came here. Q- what makes this site more human then other Atheist sites,----you're more Christian, get it. It's obvious that the operators of this site demand you treat each other humanly, right. And that's why we Seers know that those claiming Christianity aren't Christians because they aspire to the animal mind as everyone else. While we Seers don't aspire to the animal mentality we have to go along with it as that's the what the world basically relys on in it's processes. The animal mind and the human mind together is what creates one's personality. But I digress ( what the heck ever that means, I'll look it up, I think I got it right) and leave things as is. Take care.
I know what you think you are.
Semantics and redefinitions. Spare me.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 16, 2019, 03:56:19 AM
OK, tell me what you know I think I am.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 16, 2019, 07:19:39 AM
OK, tell me what you know I think I am.


Smurf!

Old Smurf always reminded me of A Beautiful Mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(film)).

Welcome back, mate. Still, peddling those schizophrenic fantasies, I see!
Nope, don't peddle nuttin. If I was a schizophrenic there's 3 Psycho Smurfs in our group(actually I don't think we've ever been a group)that would inform me of such. :)  What particularly do you thunk is a fantasy of mine.
Oh, I dunno... maybe the bit about a collective of high-minded thinkers spread far and wide who call themselves Smurfs, who have rediscovered the REAL secret of human existence through Bible study, and who aren't sure whether the world is ready to hear it. And you can't explain it anyway because it takes years of study to comprehend. Yeah, maybe that.

Yep, visited your website for the third time. Still delusional bollocks.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/OTzGhXlTFMEik/giphy.gif)


Or maybe I'm supposed to play along so as not to trigger a psychotic episode?? What would your therapist recommend?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Magdalena on November 16, 2019, 07:45:28 AM
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/6oxjQFnzovodi/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 16, 2019, 09:27:21 AM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.

Hmm, might be on page 1:

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Please feel free to write some words now, including, perhaps, 'metaphor' and 'context' and 'interpretation'.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Bad Penny II on November 16, 2019, 01:34:37 PM
Because gods are made up by humans and the local humans have embraced a life negating death cult.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 16, 2019, 06:02:23 PM
I think you're quit correct on that.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 16, 2019, 06:30:31 PM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.

Hmm, might be on page 1:

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Please feel free to write some words now, including, perhaps, 'metaphor' and 'context' and 'interpretation'.
There's only two things that exist in the universe, material and the psychological, AKA the spiritual. Everything in the universe can be interpreted only from those two basics. It is either material or it is mental. The book is under that same rule. It's contents can only be interpreted from a material or psychological premise. We interpret biblical creation as a psychological construction, which means it's dealing with a specific manner of "person", not the creation of the material universe. Mental can only relate to "person" nothing else. Only one of these interpretations can be true. Biblical creation has to be something psychological or something material and not both at the same time. Considering that biblical creation does not comply in it's sequences with the laws of physics one has to conclude that it must be a psychological construct. If so (and that is what we conclude) then all  those claiming to be Christians cannot be. No one needs to be schizophrenic to understand this. Our cadre has 3 well versed and practiced psychologists who I'm sure will disagree with you assessment of me.   It's a simple case of mental or matter. If it's a case of mental then the Pope is wrong and his religion is proved bogus. No one has to be nuts to understand this. :-) The words used in creation are metaphors for things spiritual. If you read the site like you claim then you would see it. We present this information not that it is true or false, but for your analysis. Whether true or false is up to you to find. We say it's true, prove us wrong, not just say we're wrong. We know that the world will not be at peace until Atheism win the day.
There's nothing in the book that proves there is a super humans anyone. The term "God" begins with Adam---not before.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 16, 2019, 08:10:39 PM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.

Hmm, might be on page 1:

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Please feel free to write some words now, including, perhaps, 'metaphor' and 'context' and 'interpretation'.
There's only two things that exist in the universe, material and the psychological, AKA the spiritual. Everything in the universe can be interpreted only from those two basics. It is either material or it is mental. The book is under that same rule. It's contents can only be interpreted from a material or psychological premise. We interpret biblical creation as a psychological construction, which means it's dealing with a specific manner of "person", not the creation of the material universe. Mental can only relate to "person" nothing else. Only one of these interpretations can be true. Biblical creation has to be something psychological or something material and not both at the same time. Considering that biblical creation does not comply in it's sequences with the laws of physics one has to conclude that it must be a psychological construct. If so (and that is what we conclude) then all  those claiming to be Christians cannot be. No one needs to be schizophrenic to understand this. Our cadre has 3 well versed and practiced psychologists who I'm sure will disagree with you assessment of me.   It's a simple case of mental or matter. If it's a case of mental then the Pope is wrong and his religion is proved bogus. No one has to be nuts to understand this. :-) The words used in creation are metaphors for things spiritual. If you read the site like you claim then you would see it. We present this information not that it is true or false, but for your analysis. Whether true or false is up to you to find. We say it's true, prove us wrong, not just say we're wrong. We know that the world will not be at peace until Atheism win the day.
There's nothing in the book that proves there is a super humans anyone. The term "God" begins with Adam---not before.


2/3. Bravo!

Since when was psychological AKA spiritual?
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 16, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.

Hmm, might be on page 1:

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Please feel free to write some words now, including, perhaps, 'metaphor' and 'context' and 'interpretation'.
There's only two things that exist in the universe, material and the psychological, AKA the spiritual. Everything in the universe can be interpreted only from those two basics. It is either material or it is mental. The book is under that same rule. It's contents can only be interpreted from a material or psychological premise. We interpret biblical creation as a psychological construction, which means it's dealing with a specific manner of "person", not the creation of the material universe. Mental can only relate to "person" nothing else. Only one of these interpretations can be true. Biblical creation has to be something psychological or something material and not both at the same time. Considering that biblical creation does not comply in it's sequences with the laws of physics one has to conclude that it must be a psychological construct. If so (and that is what we conclude) then all  those claiming to be Christians cannot be. No one needs to be schizophrenic to understand this. Our cadre has 3 well versed and practiced psychologists who I'm sure will disagree with you assessment of me.   It's a simple case of mental or matter. If it's a case of mental then the Pope is wrong and his religion is proved bogus. No one has to be nuts to understand this. :-) The words used in creation are metaphors for things spiritual. If you read the site like you claim then you would see it. We present this information not that it is true or false, but for your analysis. Whether true or false is up to you to find. We say it's true, prove us wrong, not just say we're wrong. We know that the world will not be at peace until Atheism win the day.
There's nothing in the book that proves there is a super humans anyone. The term "God" begins with Adam---not before.


2/3. Bravo!

Since when was psychological AKA spiritual?
The biblical writers, of ancient times didn't have psychological terms, so they use material things in their place. In biblical terms according to our understanding, a person is non material and invisible. Whether they be right or wrong is not the point here. Bear in mind, they weren't scientists. The writers concern is with the condition of people/persons. Therefore, spiritual equates to the mental, and in turn mental equates to person.
The object/mission of the book is to destroy all powers principalities and authorities--that is the removal of all religions and government.
 This is going to be hard for you---JC is an atheist. Why, because he had no religion. He, being in likeness of Adam who also had no religion. Ok, think. What was JC's religion, Jewish, nope. His religion if any would have to be Christianity, but Christianity cannot be a religion because Christianity is a mentality under which one is properly "human", and not the worlds idea of Human. Being human is not a religion but merely a kind of person. JC is the same as the personage of Adam, and Adam could not be of any religion, if you think so, can you describe that religion---we can't, so he had none. If Adam couldn't have had a religion then neither could JC. There's more here but this can go on for quit a time. In the meantime read the mission statement of this site. The mission statement is merely trying to have the members use Christian principles by treating the members "humanly". What the statement is doing is trying to eliminate certain animal behaviors. If you'll look you'll notice the bible deals in animal nature vs human nature. This is what all the biblical animal symbolism are all about, and you'll also see them in creation and especially in Revelation.  Everyone has Christianity, the churches have it all wrong.  If they are under divine guidance then why didn't they at least see the possibilities of another interpretation. If they are who they say then they would have seen it, but they didn't. Then in either case they cannot be who/what they say they are. We didn't find this with any divine guidance that we know of. So, so much for religions, they're all man made. The universe is of two sciences, material and psychological. It is impossible for there to be any other. (except particle physics maybe . That may be a different deal altogether)

Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 17, 2019, 01:23:14 AM
My most compelling reason to be an Atheist is, I can't find any reason to see/believe that the material universe is created and operated by a superhuman someone. There's no evidence by anyone that such a being exists, and there's no evidence in the Bible that such a person exists. The bibles makes no such claim.

Hmm, might be on page 1:

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

Please feel free to write some words now, including, perhaps, 'metaphor' and 'context' and 'interpretation'.
There's only two things that exist in the universe, material and the psychological, AKA the spiritual. Everything in the universe can be interpreted only from those two basics. It is either material or it is mental. The book is under that same rule. It's contents can only be interpreted from a material or psychological premise. We interpret biblical creation as a psychological construction, which means it's dealing with a specific manner of "person", not the creation of the material universe. Mental can only relate to "person" nothing else. Only one of these interpretations can be true. Biblical creation has to be something psychological or something material and not both at the same time. Considering that biblical creation does not comply in it's sequences with the laws of physics one has to conclude that it must be a psychological construct. If so (and that is what we conclude) then all  those claiming to be Christians cannot be. No one needs to be schizophrenic to understand this. Our cadre has 3 well versed and practiced psychologists who I'm sure will disagree with you assessment of me.   It's a simple case of mental or matter. If it's a case of mental then the Pope is wrong and his religion is proved bogus. No one has to be nuts to understand this. :-) The words used in creation are metaphors for things spiritual. If you read the site like you claim then you would see it. We present this information not that it is true or false, but for your analysis. Whether true or false is up to you to find. We say it's true, prove us wrong, not just say we're wrong. We know that the world will not be at peace until Atheism win the day.
There's nothing in the book that proves there is a super humans anyone. The term "God" begins with Adam---not before.


2/3. Bravo!

Since when was psychological AKA spiritual?
The biblical writers, of ancient times didn't have psychological terms, so they use material things in their place. In biblical terms according to our understanding, a person is non material and invisible. Whether they be right or wrong is not the point here. Bear in mind, they weren't scientists. The writers concern is with the condition of people/persons. Therefore, spiritual equates to the mental, and in turn mental equates to person.
The object/mission of the book is to destroy all powers principalities and authorities--that is the removal of all religions and government.
 This is going to be hard for you---JC is an atheist. Why, because he had no religion. He, being in likeness of Adam who also had no religion. Ok, think. What was JC's religion, Jewish, nope. His religion if any would have to be Christianity, but Christianity cannot be a religion because Christianity is a mentality under which one is properly "human", and not the worlds idea of Human. Being human is not a religion but merely a kind of person. JC is the same as the personage of Adam, and Adam could not be of any religion, if you think so, can you describe that religion---we can't, so he had none. If Adam couldn't have had a religion then neither could JC. There's more here but this can go on for quit a time. In the meantime read the mission statement of this site. The mission statement is merely trying to have the members use Christian principles by treating the members "humanly". What the statement is doing is trying to eliminate certain animal behaviors. If you'll look you'll notice the bible deals in animal nature vs human nature. This is what all the biblical animal symbolism are all about, and you'll also see them in creation and especially in Revelation.  Everyone has Christianity, the churches have it all wrong.  If they are under divine guidance then why didn't they at least see the possibilities of another interpretation. If they are who they say then they would have seen it, but they didn't. Then in either case they cannot be who/what they say they are. We didn't find this with any divine guidance that we know of. So, so much for religions, they're all man made. The universe is of two sciences, material and psychological. It is impossible for there to be any other. (except particle physics maybe . That may be a different deal altogether)
::)
Wish I hadn't asked...

Thanks, but no thanks.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 17, 2019, 03:15:00 AM
That's what I admire about this site. There was no attempt to kick the heck out of me and that is appreciated. But there is news from a while ago. A church (somewhere I hear) is highly upset with this information, so, it can be expected to show up in the news at some time coming. You can imagine how upset creationist get when they are made aware. Be ready for it.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Siz on November 17, 2019, 08:26:35 AM
That's what I admire about this site. There was no attempt to kick the heck out of me and that is appreciated. But there is news from a while ago. A church (somewhere I hear) is highly upset with this information, so, it can be expected to show up in the news at some time coming. You can imagine how upset creationist get when they are made aware. Be ready for it.

🤣😂
I'm agog... !

In the meantime, why not sit down and have a glass of eggnog with us in the lounge? Talking shop exclusively isn't fun.
Title: Re: MOST COMPELLING REASON TO BE ATHEIST
Post by: Old Seer on November 20, 2019, 06:24:37 PM
Well, here we go, maybe. We're cut off commenting on Utube.