Happy Atheist Forum

Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 08:19:49 PM

Title: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 08:19:49 PM
 My theistic friends told me that I have to believe in God! do you know why ?
why Jesus believed in God! that the mistake of atheists is to think that Jesus and God are the same thing! and that Jesus was an envoy of God :chin:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 08:51:11 PM
Would your theistic friends be Jehovah's Witnesses by any chance?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 09:51:34 PM
Would your theistic friends be Jehovah's Witnesses by any chance?

 not ! they claim that atheists confuse Jesus with God. what do you think about it?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 10:33:39 PM
Would your theistic friends be Jehovah's Witnesses by any chance?

 not ! they claim that atheists confuse Jesus with God. what do you think about it?

I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 05, 2019, 11:57:11 PM
Would your theistic friends be Jehovah's Witnesses by any chance?

 not ! they claim that atheists confuse Jesus with God. what do you think about it?

I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

That's certainly what I was taught in about half the Xtian churches my mother took me to as a kid.  The other half said they were two separate beings.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 06, 2019, 12:12:19 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

That's certainly what I was taught in about half the Xtian churches my mother took me to as a kid.  The other half said they were two separate beings.

That's somewhat ambiguous. Are you saying that half of the churches claimed that Jesus is not the Christian god?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 06, 2019, 12:20:13 AM
My theistic friends told me that I have to believe in God! do you know why ?
why Jesus believed in God! that the mistake of atheists is to think that Jesus and God are the same thing! and that Jesus was an envoy of God :chin:

I think this whole thing is immaterial.  There are people who make the argument that Jesus himself did not exist, either as an envoy or an embodiment.  If Jesus did exist there's no evidence, and therefore no reason to believe, that he had any kind of special knowledge and certainly no reason to believe merely on his word that the supernatural existed at all. 

This has always been my problem with claims for the supernatural -- all we have to go on for it is other peoples opinions, and that's just not impressive.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 06, 2019, 12:24:15 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

That's certainly what I was taught in about half the Xtian churches my mother took me to as a kid.  The other half said they were two separate beings.

That's somewhat ambiguous. Are you saying that half of the churches claimed that Jesus is not the Christian god?

That's right.  He was the son of god, but not god himself.  They'd get very heated about people who claimed that the Son was also the Father.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 06, 2019, 12:51:40 AM
Would your theistic friends be Jehovah's Witnesses by any chance?

 not ! they claim that atheists confuse Jesus with God. what do you think about it?

I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

 Jesus in the New Testament just stated that He was a messenger of God!
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 06, 2019, 01:44:41 AM
Well, if you take the message of the whole NT, it's pretty clear that Jesus, as the incarnation of the Logos, is one of the three persons of the Godhead, and, therefore, God, in the vast majority of Christian theologies.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 06, 2019, 08:20:35 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

 Jesus in the New Testament just stated that He was a messenger of God!

I'm not asking for your interpretation of the New Testament. I'm asking if you're aware of the fact that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is their god. Can you honestly answer my question?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 06, 2019, 08:26:36 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

That's certainly what I was taught in about half the Xtian churches my mother took me to as a kid.  The other half said they were two separate beings.

That's somewhat ambiguous. Are you saying that half of the churches claimed that Jesus is not the Christian god?

That's right.  He was the son of god, but not god himself.  They'd get very heated about people who claimed that the Son was also the Father.

Interesting. It would seem that your mother had a taste for nontrinitarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism) churches. Nonetheless, the majority of Christians (and Christian denominations) are trinitarian and have been for a very long time.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 06, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

That's certainly what I was taught in about half the Xtian churches my mother took me to as a kid.  The other half said they were two separate beings.

That's somewhat ambiguous. Are you saying that half of the churches claimed that Jesus is not the Christian god?

That's right.  He was the son of god, but not god himself.  They'd get very heated about people who claimed that the Son was also the Father.

Interesting. It would seem that your mother had a taste for nontrinitarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism) churches. Nonetheless, the majority of Christians (and Christian denominations) are trinitarian and have been for a very long time.

Yeah, and she went to those churches too.  I think she just went to whatever church was closest, which turned out to involve quite a variety of different doctrines.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 07, 2019, 02:03:37 PM
 Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 07, 2019, 02:54:14 PM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

What?  :f you:

(P.S.) Dear Mr.Recusant:- I thought that smiley was just a nice waving smiley. I didn't notice the upended digit. Could you remove it immediately please. And am I now banned? . . . Oh dear! :shocked:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 07, 2019, 03:10:09 PM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

Surely you are capable of carrying on a basic conversation. Spouting slogans while ignoring relevant queries isn't going to achieve anything beyond alienating members of this site.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 07, 2019, 03:17:04 PM
Thomas J. J. Altizer says:
“Every man today who is open to experience knows that God is absent, but only the Christian knows that God is dead, that the death of God is a final and irrevocable event and that God's death has actualized in our history a new and liberated humanity.”
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2019, 11:28:12 PM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

Surely you are capable of carrying on a basic conversation. Spouting slogans while ignoring relevant queries isn't going to achieve anything beyond alienating members of this site.

Ricardo, você entendeu que ele está pedindo para você responder as perguntas dele? Se precisar de ajuda é só falar.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Icarus on October 08, 2019, 12:14:26 AM
Many christian denominations truly believe that Jesus is God.  Some believe in the trinity, others believe that he is/was the son of God, without the holy ghost.  Almost all the southern Baptist types believe that in order to be admitted to heaven the individual must swear an oath that "Jesus is my lord and savior".   So for southern Baptists, Jesus is God.

The salient question is whether the Jesus of the Christian bible ever actually existed.   If he did exist was he merely an ancient con man or was he the son of God or even God himself in earthly disguise? Was Paul just making up a lot of fairy tales when he did the super sales job on behalf of  the real or invented Jesus person?   Which Jesus?  At that time the name "Jesus" was a common one.  Which of the many are we to be persuaded (or conned) to worship?  Along about that time another magic man named Appolonius was doing more miraculous stuff than the biblical Jesus person. He was far more educated, more widely traveled, a superior magician, and a skilled orator.  He doesn't get any mention at all in the Christian scriptures.  Maybe he was the son of God and the ancients got their names and characters mixed up.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 01:13:16 AM
I think you are perfectly well aware that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is the Christian god, correct?

 Jesus in the New Testament just stated that He was a messenger of God!

I'm not asking for your interpretation of the New Testament. I'm asking if you're aware of the fact that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus is their god. Can you honestly answer my question?
yes for most Jesus is god for Christians
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 01:17:11 AM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

Surely you are capable of carrying on a basic conversation. Spouting slogans while ignoring relevant queries isn't going to achieve anything beyond alienating members of this site.
In the New Testament Jesus claimed not to be God, but Christians did not invent in what way Jesus is God, this is Christian dogma.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 01:18:35 AM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

Surely you are capable of carrying on a basic conversation. Spouting slogans while ignoring relevant queries isn't going to achieve anything beyond alienating members of this site.

Ricardo, você entendeu que ele está pedindo para você responder as perguntas dele? Se precisar de ajuda é só falar.
ok responda a ele.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 08, 2019, 08:39:16 AM
In the New Testament Jesus claimed not to be God, but Christians did not invent in what way Jesus is God, this is Christian dogma.

Thank you for answering. Ecurb Noselrub already cited one example in the Bible (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A1-5&version=NIV) stating unequivocally that Jesus and the Christian god are one.

Quote
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[John 1:1-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A1-5&version=NIV)]

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[John 1-14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A14&version=NIV)]

Jesus is clearly claiming to be the Jewish god when he says in the Gospel of John (https://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+10%3A27-30&version=NIV):

Quote
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

Beyond this, there are many examples in the New Testament in which it is stated explicitly that Jesus is the Christian god. Why do you claim that Jesus said that he wasn't?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 08, 2019, 08:45:20 AM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

What?

(P.S.) Dear Mr.Recusant:- I thought that smiley was just a nice waving smiley. I didn't notice the upended digit. Could you remove it immediately please. And am I now banned? . . . Oh dear! :shocked:

I know that most sites have a brief window in which editing of posts is allowed. That is not the case here. You can edit that post yourself if you wish.

Just as I'm giving Ricardo the benefit of the doubt in regard to his claim to be an atheist, I extend the same courtesy to you in this matter.

I certainly am not going to ban you--except for would-be spammers I'm strongly against summary banning. However, if it gratifies you to hurl abuse at people you find disagreeable it would be best if you do so elsewhere, and stick to rational discourse on this site. Thank you.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Tank on October 08, 2019, 08:53:28 AM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

What?

(P.S.) Dear Mr.Recusant:- I thought that smiley was just a nice waving smiley. I didn't notice the upended digit. Could you remove it immediately please. And am I now banned? . . . Oh dear! :shocked:

I know that most sites have a brief window in which editing of posts is allowed. That is not the case here. You can edit that post yourself if you wish.

Just as I'm giving Ricardo the benefit of the doubt in regard to his claim to be an atheist, I extend the same courtesy to you in this matter.

I certainly am not going to ban you--except for would-be spammers I'm strongly against summary banning.

You are the Ying to my Yang in that respect.  ;D
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 08, 2019, 09:18:13 AM

You are the Ying to my Yang in that respect.  ;D

Well thank you Tank! :daisies:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 08, 2019, 09:28:15 AM
Jesus Christ was not Atheist, theists claim!

Surely you are capable of carrying on a basic conversation. Spouting slogans while ignoring relevant queries isn't going to achieve anything beyond alienating members of this site.

That is what I was trying to say in my earlier post Recusant . . . But somehow it didn't come out the same! :shrug:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 05:02:29 PM
In the New Testament Jesus claimed not to be God, but Christians did not invent in what way Jesus is God, this is Christian dogma.

Thank you for answering. Ecurb Noselrub already cited one example in the Bible (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A1-5&version=NIV) stating unequivocally that Jesus and the Christian god are one.

Quote
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[John 1:1-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A1-5&version=NIV)]

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[John 1-14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+1%3A14&version=NIV)]

Jesus is clearly claiming to be the Jewish god when he says in the Gospel of John (https://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+10%3A27-30&version=NIV):

Quote
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

Beyond this, there are many examples in the New Testament in which it is stated explicitly that Jesus is the Christian god. Why do you claim that Jesus said that he wasn't?
The divinity of Jesus is proved
for your words? I think not !
“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Recusant on October 08, 2019, 06:59:55 PM
The divinity of Jesus is proved
for your words? I think not !
“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

You misunderstand me. I am not claiming that Jesus was divine. I am pointing out that the majority of Christians believe that he is their god. I have shown that their belief is supported by their book, whether you like that or not.

Your inane claim that atheists mistakenly "think that Jesus and God are the same thing" is unsupportable and counterfactual.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 07:29:14 PM
The divinity of Jesus is proved
for your words? I think not !
“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

You misunderstand me. I am not claiming that Jesus was divine. I am pointing out that the majority of Christians believe that he is their god. I have shown that their belief is supported by their book, whether you like that or not.

Your inane claim that atheists mistakenly "think that Jesus and God are the same thing" is unsupportable and counterfactual.
I am an atheist, and to me there is no evidence that the Historical Jesus existed!
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 10:03:01 PM

“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b631deae58b86cb351b4bc8d41e72f3e/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Ricardo on October 09, 2019, 12:36:40 AM

“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b631deae58b86cb351b4bc8d41e72f3e/tenor.gif)
liked it ! there are others ?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Bluenose on October 09, 2019, 01:38:23 AM
I am an atheist, and to me there is no evidence that the Historical Jesus existed!

The questions of Jesus's divinity and his historical existence are entirely separate.  I have great doubts that Jesus actually existed at least in any form that would be recognisable today.  However, whether or not he existed he was certainly not divine since the god of the Abrahamic religions is logically impossible.  This also has no bearing on whether some other god exists, which I have long maintained is the next best thing to impossible, but for which there does remain a vanishingly small possibility.  Despite this, after thousands of years believers have still failed to produce any objective evidence for any of the thousands of gods that have been posited.  So I'm not too worried about being tapped on the shoulder in the afterlife by some deity.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 05:20:21 AM

“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b631deae58b86cb351b4bc8d41e72f3e/tenor.gif)
liked it ! there are others ?
Other what?
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 09, 2019, 05:50:50 AM
Other what?

That would be quotes from the bibel Magdalena. Do you really want more? :shocked: :hahaha...no:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 06:14:51 AM
Other what?

That would be quotes from the bibel Magdalena. Do you really want more? :shocked: :hahaha...no:
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/spfi6nabVuq5y/200.gif)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 06:18:30 AM

“You have heard what I said to you, I go and return to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I am going to my Father, because my Father is GREATER THAN
I. ”(John, XIV: 28.)

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b631deae58b86cb351b4bc8d41e72f3e/tenor.gif)
liked it ! there are others ?
Other what?
The gif means: "I'm not listening." "I can't hear you." "I don't want to hear you--Thank you."
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 09, 2019, 09:27:30 AM
The gif means: "I'm not listening." "I can't hear you." "I don't want to hear you--Thank you."

Well, I knew that didn't I? ::) "A picture is worth a thousand words" But tell me please. . . Where do you get these brilliant animated gifs from? Do you have a huge stockpile of them in a hidden folder, some of which you add your own text to? Do keep them coming! :frolic:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 12:07:51 PM
The gif means: "I'm not listening." "I can't hear you." "I don't want to hear you--Thank you."

Well, I knew that didn't I? ::) "A picture is worth a thousand words" But tell me please. . . Where do you get these brilliant animated gifs from? Do you have a huge stockpile of them in a hidden folder, some of which you add your own text to? Do keep them coming! :frolic:
Awwww...You're a gif lover!?
 :secrets1: Some people hate them very much around here. The gifs not the users.
But, here you go:  :grin: (sorry guys)
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14101.0
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 09, 2019, 01:01:49 PM

Awwww...You're a gif lover!?
 :secrets1: Some people hate them very much around here. The gifs not the users.
But, here you go:  :grin: (sorry guys)
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14101.0

WOW!!!!....Thanks Magdalena! (https://i.imgur.com/bZpkrXB.gif)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 04:00:34 PM

Awwww...You're a gif lover!?
 :secrets1: Some people hate them very much around here. The gifs, not the users.
But, here you go:  :grin: (sorry guys)
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14101.0

WOW!!!!....Thanks Magdalena! (https://i.imgur.com/bZpkrXB.gif)
:snicker: You're welcome, Red_Cloud
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Icarus on October 09, 2019, 10:07:50 PM
RC do not be surprised at Mags creativity.  She is a remarkably inventive butterfly. 

She is also magic because she has the ability to turn into a witch with mysterious powers.  Not only that, she has a dragon in her garage. Her dragon is a distant cousin to the dragon that lives in my garage.
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 11:12:18 PM
... Not only that, she has a dragon in her garage. Her dragon is a distant cousin to the dragon that lives in my garage.
Sure, Puff The Magic Dragon, everyone knows that.
 :devil2:
The three dragons:
Peter, Paul, and Mary--
(Juana).  :grin:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 10, 2019, 03:15:05 AM
Mags is incredibly fluent in Gifese. She always finds the perfect one for every circumstance. :tellmemore:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 10, 2019, 03:44:55 AM
Mags is incredibly fluent in Gifese. She always finds the perfect one for every circumstance. :tellmemore:
Awww, Fernandita, you're so sweet.  :hug: A lot of people here are incredibly fluent in Gifese. You, Davin, Bruno, let's see...who else?  :chin:
Buddy!
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 10, 2019, 04:00:37 AM
Mags is incredibly fluent in Gifese. She always finds the perfect one for every circumstance. :tellmemore:
Awww, Fernandita, you're so sweet.  :hug: A lot of people here are incredibly fluent in Gifese. You, Davin, Bruno, let's see...who else?  :chin:
Buddy!

Yes, this forum is full of fluent Gifers. :smilenod: But not me, I'm like the person who tries very hard but just doesn't get it quite right. :P

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/fef1cff90d4b97006ee5354eefd48b60/tenor.gif?itemid=5583449)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 10, 2019, 05:12:28 AM
Mags is incredibly fluent in Gifese. She always finds the perfect one for every circumstance. :tellmemore:
Awww, Fernandita, you're so sweet.  :hug: A lot of people here are incredibly fluent in Gifese. You, Davin, Bruno, let's see...who else?  :chin:
Buddy!

Yes, this forum is full of fluent Gifers. :smilenod: But not me, I'm like the person who tries very hard but just doesn't get it quite right. :P

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/fef1cff90d4b97006ee5354eefd48b60/tenor.gif?itemid=5583449)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/4jEFaBOIlpovm/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: Magdalena on October 10, 2019, 05:14:50 AM
^^^
This is so much better than trying to figure out if Jesus is or isn't a god.  :lol:
Title: Re: Jesus is not God
Post by: hermes2015 on October 10, 2019, 05:43:28 AM
^^^
This is so much better than trying to figure out if Jesus is or isn't a god.  :lol:

 :clapping: