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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Ricardo on October 04, 2019, 07:58:43 PM

Title: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 04, 2019, 07:58:43 PM
 How to refute the following theistic argument that says "You cannot prove that God does not exist."  :)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 04, 2019, 09:16:44 PM
Hello, Ricardo. Nice to see you here.  :)

There is no need to refute such trivialities, in my opinion. While I might engage in a discussion predicated on the statement you present, it would only be for entertainment purposes. I don't believe gods exist because the supposed evidence of their existence is feeble, ambiguous, or downright fraudulent. The existence of the Christian god can be considered refutable on a logical basis, which is why most astute Christian debaters prefer to defend a more abstract concept of deity.

Christian soldiers bleating this sort of battle-cry are merely looking to score points on some imaginary scoreboard. They suffer under the delusion that they hold an unassailable position, and for the most part, indulging them only serves to validate that delusion.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Davin on October 04, 2019, 09:24:40 PM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 04, 2019, 09:53:18 PM
Hello, Ricardo. Nice to see you here.  :)

There is no need to refute such trivialities, in my opinion. While I might engage in a discussion predicated on the statement you present, it would only be for entertainment purposes. I don't believe gods exist because the supposed evidence of their existence is feeble, ambiguous, or downright fraudulent. The existence of the Christian god can be considered refutable on a logical basis, which is why most astute Christian debaters prefer to defend a more abstract concept of deity.

Christian soldiers bleating this sort of battle-cry are merely looking to score points on some imaginary scoreboard. They suffer under the delusion that they hold an unassailable position, and for the most part, indulging them only serves to validate that delusion.
Can this subject come under the purview of science?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 04, 2019, 10:14:28 PM

Can this subject come under the purview of science?

Kiss my Goddam ass Ricardo. . . Goodbye! :terrapin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 04, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 04, 2019, 11:55:20 PM
Hello, Ricardo. Nice to see you here.  :)

There is no need to refute such trivialities, in my opinion. While I might engage in a discussion predicated on the statement you present, it would only be for entertainment purposes. I don't believe gods exist because the supposed evidence of their existence is feeble, ambiguous, or downright fraudulent. The existence of the Christian god can be considered refutable on a logical basis, which is why most astute Christian debaters prefer to defend a more abstract concept of deity.

Christian soldiers bleating this sort of battle-cry are merely looking to score points on some imaginary scoreboard. They suffer under the delusion that they hold an unassailable position, and for the most part, indulging them only serves to validate that delusion.
Can this subject come under the purview of science?

I don't think so; gods by their purported nature are not subject to any direct scientific inquiry.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 12:00:46 AM

Can this subject come under the purview of science?

Kiss my Goddam ass Ricardo. . . Goodbye! :terrapin:

I hope that was an attempt at humour. Even if it was, that's a rather harsh way to engage with a new member of this site. Please keep Rule 1 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0) in mind. Thank you
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 12:29:08 AM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 12:33:27 AM

Can this subject come under the purview of science?

Kiss my Goddam ass Ricardo. . . Goodbye! :terrapin:

I hope that was an attempt at humour. Even if it was, that's a rather harsh way to engage with a new member of this site. Please keep Rule 1 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0) in mind. Thank you
thank you very much  :)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 12:36:52 AM
Hello, Ricardo. Nice to see you here.  :)

There is no need to refute such trivialities, in my opinion. While I might engage in a discussion predicated on the statement you present, it would only be for entertainment purposes. I don't believe gods exist because the supposed evidence of their existence is feeble, ambiguous, or downright fraudulent. The existence of the Christian god can be considered refutable on a logical basis, which is why most astute Christian debaters prefer to defend a more abstract concept of deity.

Christian soldiers bleating this sort of battle-cry are merely looking to score points on some imaginary scoreboard. They suffer under the delusion that they hold an unassailable position, and for the most part, indulging them only serves to validate that delusion.
Can't you prove a negative? It is a reversal of the burden of proof!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 05, 2019, 01:04:24 AM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Brazil? Wow! I am from El Salvador, but I live in the USA. I'm glad to hear we're your first atheist forum. I'm sure we all learn something new, here, every day.
Again, welcome.  :computerwave:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 01:16:34 AM
Can't you prove a negative? It is a reversal of the burden of proof!

Despite the adage that holds the impossibility of proving a negative, it is possible in some cases (https://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf). However, the concept of gods is so diffuse that proving their non-existence is in my opinion a fool's errand.

I agree that the challenge to prove that gods don't exist is an attempt to reverse the burden of proof. But the sort of person who would issue that challenge would also never let logical fallacies get in the way of their march to triumph. On the other hand, if a person claims to know that gods do not exist, they take on their own burden of proof. Personally I don't make that claim. I don't believe that gods exist, and I mentioned the main reason for my lack of belief above. I think that it is reasonable to doubt the existence of gods, and for me that in itself is enough. If any of the gods that religions tell us about truly existed, the evidence for these beings would be unequivocal and no reasonable person would question their existence.

Then there is the fact that in the history of our species, thousands of gods have been worshipped. The attributes of this multitude of gods are contradictory--religions simply can't all be telling us about the same beings. The more likely explanation is that gods are a product of human imagination and desires, which vary by location and era; the gods reflect that variability.

One can entertain the thought that one particular god or one particular pantheon of gods does exist, but which? How to winnow out all the thousands of false gods? Being born into the faith of one's family is not evidence that their faith is the one true faith out of all available. Statistically, it's unlikely to be so.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 05, 2019, 01:22:40 AM
How to refute the following theistic argument that says "You cannot prove that God does not exist."  :)

Well, technically that's true but it's meaningless since you can't really prove anything doesn't exist (just try doing it with unicorns or elves), you can only prove what does exist.

In any case most atheists I know, me included, aren't saying "god doesn't exist", we're saying theist claims for the existence of a god, or even the supernatural in general, aren't convincing. 

Given solid evidence that some kind of god exists, or even just a really compelling reason to accept without evidence the idea that one exists, we'll change our minds about it.  I'd be willing to bet that worshipping the god would still be very unlikely for most of us, but we would change our minds about it existing.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 01:47:18 AM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Brazil? Wow! I am from El Salvador, but I live in the USA. I'm glad to hear we're your first atheist forum. I'm sure we all learn something new, here, every day.
Again, welcome.  :computerwave:
 
 Magdalena thank you very much  :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 01:56:54 AM
Can't you prove a negative? It is a reversal of the burden of proof!

Despite the adage that holds the impossibility of proving a negative, it is possible in some cases (https://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf). However, the concept of gods is so diffuse that proving their non-existence is in my opinion a fool's errand.

I agree that the challenge to prove that gods don't exist is an attempt to reverse the burden of proof. But the sort of person who would issue that challenge would also never let logical fallacies get in the way of their march to triumph. On the other hand, if a person claims to know that gods do not exist, they take on their own burden of proof. Personally I don't make that claim. I don't believe that gods exist, and I mentioned the main reason for my lack of belief above. I think that it is reasonable to doubt the existence of gods, and for me that in itself is enough. If any of the gods that religions tell us about truly existed, the evidence for these beings would be unequivocal and no reasonable person would question their existence.

Then there is the fact that in the history of our species, thousands of gods have been worshipped. The attributes of this multitude of gods are contradictory--religions simply can't all be telling us about the same beings. The more likely explanation is that gods are a product of human imagination and desires, which vary by location and era; the gods reflect that variability.

One can entertain the thought that one particular god or one particular pantheon of gods does exist, but which? How to winnow out all the thousands of false gods? Being born into the faith of one's family is not evidence that their faith is the one true faith out of all available. Statistically, it's unlikely to be so.

 If science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, how could theists prove the existence of God?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: hermes2015 on October 05, 2019, 04:16:49 AM
Welcome to HAF, Ricardo. I cannot improve on the responses of the others who have done do.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 05, 2019, 05:34:36 AM


I hope that was an attempt at humour. Even if it was, that's a rather harsh way to engage with a new member of this site. Please keep Rule 1 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0) in mind. Thank you

Yes, quite right Recusant, my apologies to all! :offtobed:


Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 05, 2019, 06:13:14 AM
If science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, how could theists prove the existence of God?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xZvvOZRmKay4xy/giphy.gif)
They've proved it?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 09:17:47 AM
If science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, how could theists prove the existence of God?

A useful principle to remember is this: Science does not actually prove or disprove the existence of anything. It's a means of gathering and understanding evidence, but conclusions remain tentative. That is, scientific conclusions can and will be modified or discarded in the face of sufficient scientific evidence. ("Scientific Proof Is A Myth" | Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/#5d22eb1b2fb1))

Theists who may claim to have proved the existence of a god via science misunderstand how science works. An atheist who made a claim to have scientifically disproved the existence of a god would be committing the same mistake.

There are some supposed proofs of the existence of gods (often one of the Abrahamic gods) based on logical reasoning. Every one of them that I've come across fails, mostly because at least some the assumptions (premises) upon which they're based are questionable.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
Welcome to HAF, Ricardo. I cannot improve on the responses of the others who have done do.
  :thumbsup: :
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 12:48:40 PM
 :snicker1:
If science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, how could theists prove the existence of God?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xZvvOZRmKay4xy/giphy.gif)
They've proved it?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 05, 2019, 02:04:33 PM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?

Another Brazilian!  ;D Seja bem vindo ao fórum, Ricardo!

Where in Brazil are you from? I live in Rio Grande do Sul...Porto Alegre to be exact.

You can learn about many things here, religion, atheism, skepticism etc. Though the members of this forum have become part of a small community and we generally talk about everyday topics, with the occasional atheism-related thread here and there so you won't find many of those but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask or discuss the topics you're more interested in talking about.   ;)

Eu me registrei neste fórum em 2010 (nossa, faz 9 anos já! :o ) e ajudou um monte meu inglês. Super recomendo para aprender e  manter a fluência! :thumbsup:




Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 05, 2019, 02:20:17 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 03:57:51 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 04:01:51 PM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?

Another Brazilian!  ;D Seja bem vindo ao fórum, Ricardo!

Where in Brazil are you from? I live in Rio Grande do Sul...Porto Alegre to be exact.

You can learn about many things here, religion, atheism, skepticism etc. Though the members of this forum have become part of a small community and we generally talk about everyday topics, with the occasional atheism-related thread here and there so you won't find many of those but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask or discuss the topics you're more interested in talking about.   ;)

Eu me registrei neste fórum em 2010 (nossa, faz 9 anos já! :o ) e ajudou um monte meu inglês. Super recomendo para aprender e  manter a fluência! :thumbsup:
xSilverPhinx: Are you a skeptic too? :)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 05, 2019, 05:04:16 PM
If science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, how could theists prove the existence of God?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xZvvOZRmKay4xy/giphy.gif)
They've proved it?

They prove it with faith.  Which only works in this context, lucky for them.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 05, 2019, 05:34:48 PM
I have a valid contract that says that you must pay me $100 a week. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist. I do accept Bitcoin and will expect the payment every Monday by 10am MST.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Welcome to the forum, Ricardo.
Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?
If you don't want to, that's OK.
I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?

Another Brazilian!  ;D Seja bem vindo ao fórum, Ricardo!

Where in Brazil are you from? I live in Rio Grande do Sul...Porto Alegre to be exact.

You can learn about many things here, religion, atheism, skepticism etc. Though the members of this forum have become part of a small community and we generally talk about everyday topics, with the occasional atheism-related thread here and there so you won't find many of those but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask or discuss the topics you're more interested in talking about.   ;)

Eu me registrei neste fórum em 2010 (nossa, faz 9 anos já! :o ) e ajudou um monte meu inglês. Super recomendo para aprender e  manter a fluência! :thumbsup:
xSilverPhinx: Are you a skeptic too? :)

I am! :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 05, 2019, 05:36:48 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:

 ;D I don't think that in the past nine years there's been another Brazilian here.

:popcorn: We're taking over the internet.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: hermes2015 on October 05, 2019, 05:48:01 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:

 ;D I don't think that in the past nine years there's been another Brazilian here.

:popcorn: We're taking over the internet.

Soon there will be gazillions of Brazilians here.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Recusant on October 05, 2019, 06:04:35 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.

Thank you, xSilverPhinx. My post was faulty. Yours is much better, which is to be expected.  :smokin cool:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 06:29:56 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
Seu Avatar ficou muito legal ! 8) 8) 8)
 xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:

 ;D I don't think that in the past nine years there's been another Brazilian here.

:popcorn: We're taking over the internet.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 05, 2019, 06:32:12 PM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
Seu Avatar ficou muito legal ! 8) 8) 8)
 xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:

 ;D I don't think that in the past nine years there's been another Brazilian here.

:popcorn: We're taking over the internet
Your Avatar is very cool!  8)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 06, 2019, 01:46:49 AM
Just say "you can't prove that God does exist" and then invite them for a beer at your local oasis and talk about College Football.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Icarus on October 06, 2019, 02:29:43 AM
Good suggestion Bruce.  Are you emotionally attached to a particular college team?

I am a Univ. of Florida alumni so I have to be a die hard Gator fan.  ( WHoopee! My Gators defeated #7 Auburn this afternoon)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 06, 2019, 02:41:11 AM
Good suggestion Bruce.  Are you emotionally attached to a particular college team?

I am a Univ. of Florida alumni so I have to be a die hard Gator fan.  ( WHoopee! My Gators defeated #7 Auburn this afternoon)

Baylor (D-1 - 5-0 right now)
Mary Hardin Baylor (D-3, 4-0 right now, defending National Champions, ranked No. 1).

These are my two alma maters.  I played football in high school and love the game, violent as it is.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 06, 2019, 04:04:26 AM
Your Avatar is very cool!  8)

Thank you, I like it very much. I like googly eyes, they basically express what I'm feeling most of the time. :grin:

(https://i.imgur.com/uD7QiEL.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 06, 2019, 04:07:07 AM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.
xSilverPhinx: Thank you very much for the clarification!
Eu sou do interior do Estado de São Paulo !  que boa surpresa uma Brasileira !  :grin:

 ;D I don't think that in the past nine years there's been another Brazilian here.

:popcorn: We're taking over the internet.

Soon there will be gazillions of Brazilians here.

:watching:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 06, 2019, 04:10:43 AM
Science is about testable hypotheses and theories. These should be falsifiable as well. That is, new evidence can "disprove" a theory.

A well designed experiment has a number of positive and negative controls that give more statistical and scientific weight to the conclusions reached. How on Earth could you control for these things when dealing with the supernatural when science can only test natural events? Any supernatural occurrence (if they actually do occur), are beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. They are not testable and they are not falsifiable.

Whether god or gods exist is not a scientific question.

Thank you, xSilverPhinx. My post was faulty. Yours is much better, which is to be expected.  :smokin cool:

Thanks, Recusant. I couldn't find fault with your post, I thought it was pretty accurate.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 06, 2019, 12:52:16 PM
 So do theists believe in something that doesn't exist? would it be a self-delusion? Can this be harmful to others? :thoughtful:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 06, 2019, 01:33:47 PM
So do theists believe in something that doesn't exist? would it be a self-delusion? Can this be harmful to others? :thoughtful:

No, I don't think so, I've never heard of a theist hurting anyone 'cause of their delusion, couldn't happen, their delusion's about niceness, how could that possibly turn to not niceness?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bluenose on October 06, 2019, 02:13:33 PM
In my view I agree with the idea that lack of evidence can be evidence of lack.  In the case of gods the lack of evidence does indeed approach the status of evidence of lack.  Personally I think the probability of there being any gods to be so low as to effectively be zero, just not *quite* zero.  So, I don't waste my time wondering if there are any gods, I simply choose to live my life under the assumption that none do exist.  In the unlikely event that some actual evidence ever gets produced in favour of some god's existence, then and only then I will review my opinion based on the strength of that evidence.  However religion has had thousands of years to come up with such evidence and so far all it has managed is self delusion, logical fallacies and sophistry so I'm not concerned that such evidence is imminent.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bluenose on October 06, 2019, 02:15:02 PM
So do theists believe in something that doesn't exist? would it be a self-delusion? Can this be harmful to others? :thoughtful:

No, I don't think so, I've never heard of a theist hurting anyone 'cause of their delusion, couldn't happen, their delusion's about niceness, how could that possibly turn to not niceness?

Indeed, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition...
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 06, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
Have we proved the sun isn't Ra in his sun boat yet?
I don't know, I don't know how southern hemisphere people fit into this.
We could be in the underworld, only see him in his night boat.
Maybe, it is very shiny though, anyway whatever the wise ones decide I'll go along with.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 06, 2019, 05:55:52 PM
In my view I agree with the idea that lack of evidence can be evidence of lack.  In the case of gods the lack of evidence does indeed approach the status of evidence of lack.  Personally I think the probability of there being any gods to be so low as to effectively be zero, just not *quite* zero.  So, I don't waste my time wondering if there are any gods, I simply choose to live my life under the assumption that none do exist.  In the unlikely event that some actual evidence ever gets produced in favour of some god's existence, then and only then I will review my opinion based on the strength of that evidence.  However religion has had thousands of years to come up with such evidence and so far all it has managed is self delusion, logical fallacies and sophistry so I'm not concerned that such evidence is imminent.

:notsure: You know, if it weren't for the earphone pixies that constantly leave my earphones in knots whenever I leave them in my bag overnight I would agree with you. I don't have direct evidence they're there -- I've never seen any of them --  but I just know they're responsible and I curse them every time I get my earphones out.  :grrr:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 06, 2019, 06:09:20 PM
In my view I agree with the idea that lack of evidence can be evidence of lack.  In the case of gods the lack of evidence does indeed approach the status of evidence of lack.  Personally I think the probability of there being any gods to be so low as to effectively be zero, just not *quite* zero.  So, I don't waste my time wondering if there are any gods, I simply choose to live my life under the assumption that none do exist.  In the unlikely event that some actual evidence ever gets produced in favour of some god's existence, then and only then I will review my opinion based on the strength of that evidence.  However religion has had thousands of years to come up with such evidence and so far all it has managed is self delusion, logical fallacies and sophistry so I'm not concerned that such evidence is imminent.

:notsure: You know, if it weren't for the earphone pixies that constantly leave my earphones in knots whenever I leave them in my bag overnight I would agree with you. I don't have direct evidence they're there -- I've never seen any of them --  but I just know they're responsible and I curse them every time I get my earphones out.  :grrr:
goblins need to prove and prove to you that they don't exist! I believe they will use the scientific method! ;D
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bluenose on October 06, 2019, 11:20:14 PM
In my view I agree with the idea that lack of evidence can be evidence of lack.  In the case of gods the lack of evidence does indeed approach the status of evidence of lack.  Personally I think the probability of there being any gods to be so low as to effectively be zero, just not *quite* zero.  So, I don't waste my time wondering if there are any gods, I simply choose to live my life under the assumption that none do exist.  In the unlikely event that some actual evidence ever gets produced in favour of some god's existence, then and only then I will review my opinion based on the strength of that evidence.  However religion has had thousands of years to come up with such evidence and so far all it has managed is self delusion, logical fallacies and sophistry so I'm not concerned that such evidence is imminent.

:notsure: You know, if it weren't for the earphone pixies that constantly leave my earphones in knots whenever I leave them in my bag overnight I would agree with you. I don't have direct evidence they're there -- I've never seen any of them --  but I just know they're responsible and I curse them every time I get my earphones out.  :grrr:

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 07, 2019, 02:00:58 PM
 
 a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism
1- “God is like love: you cannot prove it exists, but you know it is there”
2- “There are many things we cannot see, but we know they exist: air, bacteria, atoms, etc. It is the same with God. ”
How to refute these arguments?  :chin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 07, 2019, 02:44:15 PM

 a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism
1- “God is like love: you cannot prove it exists, but you know it is there”
2- “There are many things we cannot see, but we know they exist: air, bacteria, atoms, etc. It is the same with God. ”
How to refute these arguments?  :chin:

With all due respect, that is just a downright silly statement!
You CAN see love. It can be seen in a look, and in a caress. We all have other senses in which we experience joy, hate, despair bewilderment etc. My beautiful dog doesn't believe in God as far as I know, but like we humans she knows what love is and she experiences it every day. Like myself, she doesn't need or desire any God. :rainbowpuke:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Davin on October 07, 2019, 05:26:11 PM

 a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism
1- “God is like love: you cannot prove it exists, but you know it is there”
2- “There are many things we cannot see, but we know they exist: air, bacteria, atoms, etc. It is the same with God. ”
How to refute these arguments?  :chin:
1- If god is like love, then god is only an emotion that we feel and would only exist so long as people are feeling it. If there were no beings to feel the emotion, then it would no longer exist. So is that the same with this god? If no one felt the god, would it no longer exist? Or is the god something more permanent and not so weak (very unlike an emotion)?

2- We can see air though. We know what it consists of. We know what air is. We can test for air, bacteria, atoms... etc. and we come up with objective evidence of all those things. Yet every time we test any testable claim for a god, it fails. Still believing in god is like still believing that maggots come from meat instead of from flies laying eggs.

Looking back on the claims made by believers, the more we understand about the world, the mores the claims made by believers in god have turned out to be false. In response to irrefutable evidence, believers have moved more and more of their "word of god" scriptures from being "absolute facts" to now being "analogies meant to be interpreted." At some point, you have to either decide that it makes more sense to abandon these faulty bases and come up with a more stable world view, or ignore reality by continuing to waste time trying to make the unreliable scriptures make sense.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2019, 07:12:44 PM

 a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism
1- “God is like love: you cannot prove it exists, but you know it is there”
2- “There are many things we cannot see, but we know they exist: air, bacteria, atoms, etc. It is the same with God. ”
How to refute these arguments?  :chin:

Those are dumb arguments in favour of the existence of a god.  ::)

1) As Davin said, love is an emotion, and exists as a subjective experience inside the head of people and other beings experiencing it, it does not exist outside of the brain.

2) All those are very easily measurable and exist in the natural world.  :picard facepalm: Quite frankly, that was the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

Take air for example, air has weight and mass. You can blow it into a balloon, fill your lungs with it...there are countless ways to demonstrate that air exists. You can actually see bacteria under a microscope. And heck, Germ Theory is just a theory, right? You can also measure atoms and "see" them using specialized instruments.

That argument is just so inane I don't even know what else to say.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: joeactor on October 07, 2019, 08:51:49 PM
I turn my head for a minute and the forum is full of Brazilians!

Nothing to add to the conversation, but... Welcome, Ricardo!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 07, 2019, 09:00:35 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2019, 11:18:42 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2019, 11:21:06 PM
I turn my head for a minute and the forum is full of Brazilians!

Prepare for the Brazilian invasion. Resistance is futile. :shifty:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 07, 2019, 11:32:56 PM
I turn my head for a minute and the forum is full of Brazilians!

Prepare for the Brazilian invasion. Resistance is futile. :shifty:

I welcome our Brazilian overlords.  I'm hoping for tanning tips.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
I welcome our Brazilian overlords.

:lol:

Quote
I'm hoping for tanning tips.

Come to Brazil! :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Icarus on October 07, 2019, 11:40:39 PM
Back a few posts Ricardo implies that theism has not caused any serious harm to humans .  I disagree, especially when considering the behavior of some of the more committed Islamists.  Lopping the heads off disbelievers is kind of harmful. Genital mutilation, and flogging women for daring to expose their hair is also not cool.   Never mind the Inquisition when bodies were stretched on the rack or strung up on a gibbet.  Our very own early settlers were ultra religious but did drown some witches and roasted a few of them too.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 07, 2019, 11:42:44 PM
I turn my head for a minute and the forum is full of Brazilians!

Nothing to add to the conversation, but... Welcome, Ricardo!
joeactor: thank you very much!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 07, 2019, 11:49:46 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends! and do you have theistic friends or family? :tellmemore:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 12:03:03 AM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
I am an atheist agnostic, I think you have the impression that I am a theist because I have no prejudice against theists even though many theists have prejudice against me for being an atheist agnostic! and do you suffer prejudice from theists? what's your reaction? :hug:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 12:05:53 AM
Back a few posts Ricardo implies that theism has not caused any serious harm to humans .  I disagree, especially when considering the behavior of some of the more committed Islamists.  Lopping the heads off disbelievers is kind of harmful. Genital mutilation, and flogging women for daring to expose their hair is also not cool.   Never mind the Inquisition when bodies were stretched on the rack or strung up on a gibbet.  Our very own early settlers were ultra religious but did drown some witches and roasted a few of them too.
truth ! Religious fanaticism is a shame. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 08, 2019, 12:14:57 AM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
I am an atheist agnostic, I think you have the impression that I am a theist because I have no prejudice against theists even though many theists have prejudice against me for being an atheist agnostic! and do you suffer prejudice from theists? what's your reaction? :hug:

Ok, fair enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm still pretty much a closet atheist, only close friends and family know I think the way I do. I have theistic family members, some very religious and others less so, and theistic friends as well. Religion is just not something we really talk about.

As for the preconceived notions some people have about me because of my lack of belief in any gods, I just ignore them. At first, it would make me very angry but now it's just not worth my time and energy.  ;)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 12:22:40 AM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 01:08:26 AM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif)
why don't you believe me? be honest !
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 05:43:39 AM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif)
why don't you believe me? be honest !
You are full of Christ.
It just shows.

Tell me, was my statement a compliment, or an insult?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bluenose on October 08, 2019, 08:36:12 AM
Over the years I have run into a great many theists claiming to be atheists.  The questions they ask generally give them away.  The questions Ricardo asks are of a similar ilk.  I remain to be convinced, Ricardo, you are being entirely frank with us.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 08, 2019, 08:53:27 AM

You are full of Christ.
It just shows.

Tell me, was my statement a compliment, or an insult?

Well! . . . He is certainly full of something Magdalena! :rofl:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 04:54:51 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif)
why don't you believe me? be honest !
You are full of Christ.
It just shows.

Tell me, was my statement a compliment, or an insult?
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 05:09:24 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
I am an atheist agnostic, I think you have the impression that I am a theist because I have no prejudice against theists even though many theists have prejudice against me for being an atheist agnostic! and do you suffer prejudice from theists? what's your reaction? :hug:

Ok, fair enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm still pretty much a closet atheist, only close friends and family know I think the way I do. I have theistic family members, some very religious and others less so, and theistic friends as well. Religion is just not something we really talk about.

As for the preconceived notions some people have about me because of my lack of belief in any gods, I just ignore them. At first, it would make me very angry but now it's just not worth my time and energy.  ;)
you have to assume you're an atheist woman! Who really loves you will keep loving you.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 05:12:31 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.
I'm an atheist agnostic! I have so many theistic friends!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif)
why don't you believe me? be honest !
You are full of Christ.
It just shows.

Tell me, was my statement a compliment, or an insult?
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Did Bob Marley believe in God?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 08, 2019, 06:42:51 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
I am an atheist agnostic, I think you have the impression that I am a theist because I have no prejudice against theists even though many theists have prejudice against me for being an atheist agnostic! and do you suffer prejudice from theists? what's your reaction? :hug:

Ok, fair enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm still pretty much a closet atheist, only close friends and family know I think the way I do. I have theistic family members, some very religious and others less so, and theistic friends as well. Religion is just not something we really talk about.

As for the preconceived notions some people have about me because of my lack of belief in any gods, I just ignore them. At first, it would make me very angry but now it's just not worth my time and energy.  ;)
you have to assume you're an atheist woman! Who really loves you will keep loving you.

I already have to those who need to know, Those who don't need to know...don't need to know. Like my maternal grandparents. I'm not going to tell them I'm an atheist when practically all they talk about are sickness and death. My fearful grandfather would hate me. My grandmother, who is more open to differing opinions, would worry I'm on my way to hell (which they believe to be a real destination for everyone who isn't a Seventh Day Adventist).

I have lost "friends" because I'm an atheist. But that's ok, my life isn't any poorer because of it.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 06:56:14 PM
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Please don't, "baby" me.
Thank you.

Did Bob Marley believe in God?
I don't know, ask him in the afterlife. And what the hell does he have to do with anything? And if you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 08, 2019, 06:56:54 PM
Well! . . . He is certainly full of something Magdalena! :rofl:

Please refrain from posting such statements, Red Cloud. We try to keep the atmosphere in this forum civil, and I ask that you do not make our job difficult.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 07:00:23 PM
...
I have lost "friends" because I'm an atheist. But that's ok, my life isn't any poorer because of it.
Me too. I haven't lost them because I am an atheist, I've lost them because I've kicked them to the curb. One can only hear the word, "god" a certain amount of times during the day. ::)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 08, 2019, 07:05:28 PM
...
I have lost "friends" because I'm an atheist. But that's ok, my life isn't any poorer because of it.
Me too. I haven't lost them because I am an atheist, I've lost them because I've kicked them to the curb. One can only hear the word, "god" a certain amount of times during the day. ::)

I hear ya!

Oh I have so many stories to tell... :tellmemore: But those are for another time. :P

Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 07:22:33 PM
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Please don't, "baby" me.
Thank you.

Did Bob Marley believe in God?
I don't know, ask him in the afterlife. And what the hell does he have to do with anything? And if you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?
I quoted him for talking about weed! it was a joke ! take it easy. :therethere:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 08, 2019, 07:24:59 PM

I'm from Brazil ! I have never participated in an atheism forum! I hope to learn more about atheism! Can this forum also learn about skepticism?
Ricardo...Ricardito...Are you a religious person?
I ask because when you start a sentence with: "a theistic friend told me he has two arguments against atheism..."--It's like when I ask: "Is marijuana bad for you? I have "a friend" who wants to know. ... :shifty:
So, are you a religious person? You sound like one.

I was thinking the same thing. But I'll wait for Ricardo to own up to being a religious person or stop looking so much like an "undercover theist".  :thoughtful:

Ricardo, Magdalena and I are skeptical you are an atheist. There's nothing wrong with being a theist -- we have theists who are regular members of this forum -- what isn't cool is pretending to be an atheist when in fact you are a believer. Are you really an atheist?
I am an atheist agnostic, I think you have the impression that I am a theist because I have no prejudice against theists even though many theists have prejudice against me for being an atheist agnostic! and do you suffer prejudice from theists? what's your reaction? :hug:

Ok, fair enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm still pretty much a closet atheist, only close friends and family know I think the way I do. I have theistic family members, some very religious and others less so, and theistic friends as well. Religion is just not something we really talk about.

As for the preconceived notions some people have about me because of my lack of belief in any gods, I just ignore them. At first, it would make me very angry but now it's just not worth my time and energy.  ;)
you have to assume you're an atheist woman! Who really loves you will keep loving you.

I already have to those who need to know, Those who don't need to know...don't need to know. Like my maternal grandparents. I'm not going to tell them I'm an atheist when practically all they talk about are sickness and death. My fearful grandfather would hate me. My grandmother, who is more open to differing opinions, would worry I'm on my way to hell (which they believe to be a real destination for everyone who isn't a Seventh Day Adventist).

I have lost "friends" because I'm an atheist. But that's ok, my life isn't any poorer because of it.
eles nunca foram seus amigos !
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 08, 2019, 07:28:33 PM
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Please don't, "baby" me.
Thank you.

Did Bob Marley believe in God?
I don't know, ask him in the afterlife. And what the hell does he have to do with anything? And if you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?
I quoted him for talking about weed! it was a joke ! take it easy. :therethere:
OK.
 :levitate:

Now, please answer me:
If you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?

Edit:
You know what...You don't have to answer that. I don't really care. I come here because I don't want to hear or know anything about god, Jesus, religion, etc. I'll just ignore your posts.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 09, 2019, 12:35:07 AM
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Please don't, "baby" me.
Thank you.

Did Bob Marley believe in God?
I don't know, ask him in the afterlife. And what the hell does he have to do with anything? And if you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?
I quoted him for talking about weed! it was a joke ! take it easy. :therethere:
OK.
 :levitate:

Now, please answer me:
If you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?

Edit:
You know what...You don't have to answer that. I don't really care. I come here because I don't want to hear or know anything about god, Jesus, religion, etc. I'll just ignore your posts.
ok i won't talk about these subjects!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 05:14:10 AM
I am a moralistic atheist! Baby !! :hug:
Please don't, "baby" me.
Thank you.

Did Bob Marley believe in God?
I don't know, ask him in the afterlife. And what the hell does he have to do with anything? And if you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?
I quoted him for talking about weed! it was a joke ! take it easy. :therethere:
OK.
 :levitate:

Now, please answer me:
If you are an atheist why do you talk about god and only god, sooooo much!?

Edit:
You know what...You don't have to answer that. I don't really care. I come here because I don't want to hear or know anything about god, Jesus, religion, etc. I'll just ignore your posts.
ok i won't talk about these subjects!
No, it's OK. You can talk about these subjects, just not with me. I don't enjoy it, but I'm sure others do. I like to talk about religious things maybe once every 3 or 4 years.
 :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: billy rubin on October 09, 2019, 01:03:41 PM
Despite the adage that holds the impossibility of proving a negative, it is possible in some cases (https://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf).

thank you for that link.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 04:18:27 PM
thank you for that link.
Hello billy rubin.
First time here?
Welcome.  :computerwave:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 09, 2019, 07:36:18 PM
Despite the adage that holds the impossibility of proving a negative, it is possible in some cases (https://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf).

thank you for that link.

Oh he has loads of them!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: billy rubin on October 09, 2019, 07:56:12 PM
yep. first post, anyway. hello to you both.

been looking the place over awhile.

the negative-argument-argument, is interesting to me. i spend a lot of time trying to figure out the difference between things i know, and things i think i know, and it came at an opportune time.

pleased to meet you. my name isn't really billy, btw. it's kevin. i was going through a period of really bad puns when i signed up.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 09, 2019, 08:03:26 PM
yep. first post, anyway. hello to you both.

been looking the place over awhile.

the negative-argument-argument, is interesting to me. i spend a lot of time trying to figure out the difference between things i know, and things i think i know, and it came at an opportune time.

pleased to meet you. my name isn't really billy, btw. it's kevin. i was going through a period of really bad puns when i signed up.
Hi Kevin.
Pleased to meet you too.
"bilirubin"  :snicker:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: billy rubin on October 09, 2019, 08:06:06 PM
sorry.

you can blame my old physiology professor for pinning that up in my forebrain forecver.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 09, 2019, 08:36:43 PM
sorry.

you can blame my old physiology professor for pinning that up in my forebrain forecver.

Welcome aboard any way  ;D
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Icarus on October 09, 2019, 10:01:28 PM
Hi, Billy rubin.  Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: hermes2015 on October 10, 2019, 05:49:24 AM
Will you walk into our parlour, billy rubin? You can trust me, at least, because I am Hermes.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 10, 2019, 08:51:11 AM
Will you walk into our parlour, billy rubin? You can trust me, at least, because I am Hermes.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

And now, dear billy rubin, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed;
Unto an evil counselor close heart, and ear, and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the Spider and the Fly.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: hermes2015 on October 10, 2019, 10:14:13 AM
Will you walk into our parlour, billy rubin? You can trust me, at least, because I am Hermes.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

And now, dear billy rubin, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed;
Unto an evil counselor close heart, and ear, and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the Spider and the Fly.


Lies, all lies, I say.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: billy rubin on October 10, 2019, 10:55:04 AM
thank you all for the welcome.

i think.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 17, 2019, 03:58:17 AM
How to refute the following theistic argument that says "You cannot prove that God does not exist."  :)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/hEc4k5pN17GZq/giphy.gif)
Onde está o Ricardo?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 17, 2019, 05:15:20 AM
Onde está o Ricardo?
Donde está Ricardo?
Hm...Very similar.  :chin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Davin on October 17, 2019, 03:32:15 PM
He hasn't even started paying me $100 USD a week yet.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 17, 2019, 04:29:52 PM
He hasn't even started paying me $100 USD a week yet.
:snicker:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 18, 2019, 11:16:55 AM
You know what you can do Ricardo?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/VIosZd0p45g5i/giphy.gif?cid=790b76118b81b0975d6816d8f607b928be7f5465473fe09e&rid=giphy.gif)

:f you:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2019, 11:26:08 AM
You know what you can do Ricardo?
https://media1.giphy.com/media/VIosZd0p45g5i/giphy.gif?cid=790b76118b81b0975d6816d8f607b928be7f5465473fe09e&rid=giphy.gif (https://media1.giphy.com/media/VIosZd0p45g5i/giphy.gif?cid=790b76118b81b0975d6816d8f607b928be7f5465473fe09e&rid=giphy.gif)
 :f you:


RC this is getting too close to 'personal insults' for comfort.
Please moderate your posts and limit them to the ideas expressed by the person.

Thanks
Tank
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 18, 2019, 11:56:50 AM


RC this is getting too close to 'personal insults' for comfort.
Please moderate your posts and limit them to the ideas expressed by the person.

Thanks
Tank

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/xB1md2I2W16IXil1BO/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611d8abc6054b5b114dd64b091cbcf39b6360727c9c&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2019, 12:03:19 PM
:rofl:

As long as you get my point. LOL
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 18, 2019, 12:33:28 PM
:rofl:

As long as you get my point. LOL

Life boils down to standing in line to get shit dropped on your head. Everyone's got a place in the queue, you can't get out of it, and just when you start to congratulate yourself on surviving your dose of shit, you discover that the line is actually circular.”
Scott Lynch, The Republic of Thieves.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/xUA7bilj5YByXZkqnS/giphy.webp?cid=790b7611b604c2bec3382c579a5d0cc6fe8757349b018ffb&rid=giphy.webp)
Do you like my giphys Tank? Getting better eh?  :grin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2019, 12:42:15 PM
I would ask the Queen of GIFs, Mags, I am merely a bystander of such things.

And while your comment about 'shit landing on one's head' is true in the big wide world HAF isn't the big wide world. It's more of a club where rules of behaviour apply and in extreme cases membership can be revoked. Not that you are anywhere near even thinking about such things yet. Just a head's up so it doesn't get that far as you are becoming a valued member. :)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 18, 2019, 03:42:28 PM
I would ask the Queen of GIFs, Mags, I am merely a bystander of such things.

And while your comment about 'shit landing on one's head' is true in the big wide world HAF isn't the big wide world. It's more of a club where rules of behaviour apply and in extreme cases membership can be revoked. Not that you are anywhere near even thinking about such things yet. Just a head's up so it doesn't get that far as you are becoming a valued member. :)

You see Tank, I sometimes have a short fuse! I do try my best to be amiable and polite, but it don’t always work!
Take Jehovah's Witnesses and Morons:- At one time we used to get them knocking on doors every weekend, without fail!
They would also be on the local shopping precinct, not just one group, but often 3 groups, you couldn't avoid them.
The Jehovah's would ring our doorbell, and if we didn't answer the door they would continually hit the doorbell again.
So I would answer the door. My wife would say “Don’t be rude to them sweetheart!” So I would start off amiable, telling them I wasn't interested. “Well, just take this to read, it might change your mind.” the arsehole would say. I would wave my hand in rejection and close the door. A few seconds later it would be pushed through the letterbox!
It got so bad at weekends that I wrote “NO JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES!” on a card and taped it on the inside of the glass on my front door. Did that stop them? Hell NO!! . . .
So I would answer the door the next weekend. “Cant you read! Didn’t you see THAT!” I would say. “Oh that!” he would say, "We don’t take notice of that, we are doing GODS work.” I would take a steep forward so that my face was closer to his and I would say— “Well, take notice of this. . . FUCK OFF!!” I rarely see them nowadays around where I live.

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/O1agV0tdMOuLm/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611999badd9ad3b5a1db151b24f192a1d50cbc7e6e2&rid=giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
"I sometimes have a short fuse! I do try my best to be amiable and polite, but it don’t always work!"

This is me too!
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 18, 2019, 07:29:11 PM

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/xUA7bilj5YByXZkqnS/giphy.webp?cid=790b7611b604c2bec3382c579a5d0cc6fe8757349b018ffb&rid=giphy.webp)
Do you like my giphys Tank? Getting better eh?  :grin:

I would ask the Queen of GIFs, Mags, I am merely a bystander of such things.

(https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/250707/file-2539839861-gif/Blog_Images/glancing-around-the-room-networking-sidekick-content.gif?width=1024&name=glancing-around-the-room-networking-sidekick-content.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Red_Cloud on October 18, 2019, 08:32:08 PM
Oh! Mags. . . .

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/d2lcHJTG5Tscg/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611b3ae360586b23058498725a9eb19efbbf7360821&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 18, 2019, 09:55:13 PM
Oh! Mags. . . .

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/d2lcHJTG5Tscg/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611b3ae360586b23058498725a9eb19efbbf7360821&rid=giphy.gif)
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/ADr35Z4TvATIc/giphy.gif)
Dios mio.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 25, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
Magdalena how are you? :computerwave:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 25, 2019, 07:21:44 PM
Magdalena how are you? :computerwave:
Ricardo! Hi. I'm fine. How are you?

I guess it's true...Be careful what you wish for.  :lol:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on October 25, 2019, 10:20:10 PM
Magdalena how are you? :computerwave:
Ricardo! Hi. I'm fine. How are you?

I guess it's true...Be careful what you wish for.  :lol:

I did not understand ! explain better ?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on October 25, 2019, 10:56:07 PM
Magdalena how are you? :computerwave:
Ricardo! Hi. I'm fine. How are you?

I guess it's true...Be careful what you wish for.  :lol:

I did not understand! explain better?
Your exclamation marks are hilarious.  :lol:

Oh, nothing, I was just talking to myself.

It's just that I "heard" something about you and I'm just wondering if it's true.

Quote
Ricardo has been around for a number of years now, using various names and avatars. He can still be seen in a few other forums under the name of Ricardo and using the same avatar he used here. He has posted in various chat forums, an astronomy forum, and a hobby forum. The more you feed him (and posters like him) the more he will reply,
...
-- That's all.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on November 02, 2019, 04:51:11 PM
 
   Magdalena there are many ricards scattered throughout the forums.
are you all right ? :)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on November 02, 2019, 05:54:48 PM

   Magdalena there are many ricards scattered throughout the forums.
are you all right ? :)
I'm sure there are many, ricards, scattered throughout the forums, I was just wondering about Ricardo. "The one who can still be seen in a few other forums under the name of Ricardo and using the same avatar he used here."

"Am I all right ?"
Yes, thank you for asking.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Ricardo on November 03, 2019, 02:13:22 AM
 the atheists' argument that there is a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of god can be refuted by the rationalism argument that everything that exists has an intelligible cause, even if that cause cannot be demonstrated empirically, such as the cause of origin. of the universe. :chin:
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Bluenose on November 03, 2019, 03:28:24 AM
the atheists' argument that there is a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of god can be refuted by the rationalism argument that everything that exists has an intelligible cause, even if that cause cannot be demonstrated empirically, such as the cause of origin. of the universe. :chin:

Rubbish! If something cannot be demonstrated empirically, then by definition, there is a lack of empirical evidence for it.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Magdalena on November 03, 2019, 07:18:54 AM
Quote
the atheists' argument that there is...

Okay. Again.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b631deae58b86cb351b4bc8d41e72f3e/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tank on November 03, 2019, 08:10:58 AM
the atheists' argument that there is a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of god can be refuted by the rationalism argument that everything that exists has an intelligible cause, even if that cause cannot be demonstrated empirically, such as the cause of origin. of the universe. :chin:

Not 'we' or 'our' or 'the atheist' but 'the atheists'. Take care with your terminology or you'll start looking like a theist troll.
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: billy rubin on November 03, 2019, 10:08:22 AM
the atheists' argument that there is a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of god can be refuted by the rationalism argument that everything that exists has an intelligible cause, even if that cause cannot be demonstrated empirically, such as the cause of origin. of the universe. :chin:

i believe the rationalism argument is refuted by the problem of induction.

all swans are white, until we see a black one.

what is the argument that demonstrates a cause is a requirement for existence?
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Tom62 on November 03, 2019, 01:20:41 PM
the atheists' argument that there is a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of god can be refuted by the rationalism argument that everything that exists has an intelligible cause, even if that cause cannot be demonstrated empirically, such as the cause of origin. of the universe. :chin:

i believe the rationalism argument is refuted by the problem of induction.

all swans are white, until we see a black one.

what is the argument that demonstrates a cause is a requirement for existence?

or that the cause has to be intelligible
Title: Re: Refuting Theistic Arguments
Post by: Old Seer on November 16, 2019, 04:59:49 AM
How about this from wiki:
In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[1] God is usually conceived as being omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all-present) and as having an eternal and necessary existence. These attributes are used either in way of analogy or are taken literally. God is most often held to be incorporeal (immaterial).[1][2][3] Incorporeality and corporeality of God are related to conceptions of transcendence (being outside nature) and immanence (being in nature) of God, with positions of synthesis such as the "immanent transcendence".
---------
This doesn't prove there is a God at least in this concept, it's merely opinion. Key, monotheistic thought. Thought equals mental, in which case is nothing more then someone's imagination. Again, thought, puts it in the category of psychology. It's not likely that one can go back in time to find it's origin in as, who's thought? When was the term first used in a language. What did the original inventor of the term mean. What cased the original user(s) to devise the term. If the original user(s) cannot be determined then it has to be deemed an invention with unknown reasons to use the term.

There's no way to determine if the origin actually applies to what it means, or what they meant. What was it that it was applied to. There's no known evidence that such a being appeared to whom and announced himself to be God. IOW, who was the first person that this God told, I'm God. Without the original person we have nothing. It becomes a matter of, not proving that God doesn't exist, it becomes a matter proving he/it does exist. Proving it lies with the one who claims he/it does exist. The one who says God (as described) doesn't exist cannot prove that something unknown to him exists, he has no dog in the show.