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General => Current Events => Topic started by: Dave on June 12, 2018, 05:22:43 PM

Title: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Dave on June 12, 2018, 05:22:43 PM
Before this meeting took place several pundits, including Obama's Science Advosor bemoaned the fact that Trump has not yet appointed a cience advisor of his own. His whole attitude to science and scientists sems flaky at best. So, a bit like old old Elelred he went into the battle ''unreded'', which means ''un-counseled'' and therefore unready. There also seems to have been little discussion between specialists of any kind.

So, after their little chat which produced a whole three page document that every one says gives away far too much with no concrete checking system on what NK actually does.Since NK have a very long history of breaking treaties of every kind, to the point of telling lies it seems, not having belt, braces, staples, duct tape, double-sided tape, carbon fibre rope etc binding such an important ''agreement'' seems a tad foolish. But there yer go . . .

Seems stopping the joint war games with SK came as a complete surprise to them.

This sems to have been a combination of Trump treating this as though he is the CEO of America, not bound by anything the lesser lights say. He likes one-on-one talks (no witnesses) which is held to be part of his about face on the G7 talks. He can try to bully one person but is weak in front of a group. Add to that his standard bombastic blustering boasting, hs exageration and hyperbole and - well, don't put the hard hats in the attic just yet folks!

Just my analysis of the views of several spokesmen and women on news outlets.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Davin on June 12, 2018, 06:11:08 PM
Things we got:
Things NK got:

When compared to the "very bad" Iranian deal, it's so much worse for us. We got nothing and gave NK things they've been wanting for a long time.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 12, 2018, 06:16:50 PM
Things we got:
  • NK continuing to say what they started saying in 1992, that they want to denuclearize the peninsula
  • Promise of more meetings
Things NK got:
  • The legitimacy they've been after since starting their nuclear program
  • Ceasing the American and South Korean war games that they've been asking to stop for decades

When compared to the "very bad" Iranian deal, it's so much worse for us. We got nothing and gave NK things they've been wanting for a long time.

Yup
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 12, 2018, 07:13:49 PM
Comment from a friend, "Kim Il Jong's gone away feeling like a peacock; Trump's gone away looking like a pea-brain."
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Tom62 on June 12, 2018, 07:36:42 PM
I guess that we'll just have to wait and see how things will develop. in any case, I find that whole event very interesting (no matter what will be the  outcome).
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Arturo on June 12, 2018, 07:59:31 PM
Comment from a friend, "Kim Il Jong's gone away feeling like a peacock; Trump's gone away looking like a pea-brain."

To be fair, I didn't think him very smart when he went in either.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: joeactor on June 12, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
Things we got:
  • NK continuing to say what they started saying in 1992, that they want to denuclearize the peninsula
  • Promise of more meetings
Things NK got:
  • The legitimacy they've been after since starting their nuclear program
  • Ceasing the American and South Korean war games that they've been asking to stop for decades

When compared to the "very bad" Iranian deal, it's so much worse for us. We got nothing and gave NK things they've been wanting for a long time.

My wife's take is that the Chinese are now in control of the region. We've forfeited the Pacific, and alienated the Americas and Europe. Go US.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Davin on June 12, 2018, 09:46:34 PM
Things we got:
  • NK continuing to say what they started saying in 1992, that they want to denuclearize the peninsula
  • Promise of more meetings
Things NK got:
  • The legitimacy they've been after since starting their nuclear program
  • Ceasing the American and South Korean war games that they've been asking to stop for decades

When compared to the "very bad" Iranian deal, it's so much worse for us. We got nothing and gave NK things they've been wanting for a long time.

My wife's take is that the Chinese are now in control of the region. We've forfeited the Pacific, and alienated the Americas and Europe. Go US.
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Arturo on June 13, 2018, 01:28:45 AM
Things we got:
  • NK continuing to say what they started saying in 1992, that they want to denuclearize the peninsula
  • Promise of more meetings
Things NK got:
  • The legitimacy they've been after since starting their nuclear program
  • Ceasing the American and South Korean war games that they've been asking to stop for decades

When compared to the "very bad" Iranian deal, it's so much worse for us. We got nothing and gave NK things they've been wanting for a long time.

My wife's take is that the Chinese are now in control of the region. We've forfeited the Pacific, and alienated the Americas and Europe. Go US.
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

But hey at least a Black Man who also happens to be a Democrat didn't get their way right? Nah it had to be a White Republican who's also a complete and utter racist / fool.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2018, 07:28:19 AM
Davin wrote:
Quote
I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit.

Well, that is an excellent example of the true nature of politics for you - "Your stupid idea is my brilliant policy!"
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Tank on June 13, 2018, 07:45:37 AM
..
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

 :headscratch:
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2018, 08:19:00 AM
:doh:

I got the wrong Kim! Memory too good for a change and names too close.

Sorry folks, this should be "The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat" thread.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Tank on June 13, 2018, 09:30:12 AM
:doh:

I got the wrong Kim! Memory too good for a change and names too close.

Sorry folks, this should be "The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat" thread.

You should be able to edit the title of your own thread. I have done it in case you can't.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2018, 09:39:33 AM
:doh:

I got the wrong Kim! Memory too good for a change and names too close.

Sorry folks, this should be "The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat" thread.

You should be able to edit the title of your own thread. I have done it in case you can't.
Tanks, Tank.
I thought that I tried that once, but it only seemed to affect that single post if done after a certain period. Does it change the "Re..." bit as well?
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Tank on June 13, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
:doh:

I got the wrong Kim! Memory too good for a change and names too close.

Sorry folks, this should be "The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat" thread.

You should be able to edit the title of your own thread. I have done it in case you can't.
Tanks, Tank.
I thought that I tried that once, but it only seemed to affect that single post if done after a certain period. Does it change the "Re..." bit as well?
It just changes the title of the original post (OP) and the titles of any replies made after the change.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim il Jong Chat
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
:doh:

I got the wrong Kim! Memory too good for a change and names too close.

Sorry folks, this should be "The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat" thread.

You should be able to edit the title of your own thread. I have done it in case you can't.
Tanks, Tank.
I thought that I tried that once, but it only seemed to affect that single post if done after a certain period. Does it change the "Re..." bit as well?
It just changes the title of the original post (OP) and the titles of any replies made after the change.

Um, yes, it seems to bave changed the "overall" title but still not the "Re:" on subsequent replies, or not in my screen at least - not that it really matters!
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Davin on June 13, 2018, 04:28:45 PM
..
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

 :headscratch:
The agreement is not binding, but Trump already gave NK one thing they really wanted: legitimacy. Trump also promised to cancel the military operations that we perform there with South Korea every year. Even if Trump backs up on that, he still promised it. That was not even part of the agreement, but it's still something we lost. And we lost those things without even getting a binding agreement to keep talking.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Arturo on June 13, 2018, 05:41:30 PM
..
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

 :headscratch:
The agreement is not binding, but Trump already gave NK one thing they really wanted: legitimacy. Trump also promised to cancel the military operations that we perform there with South Korea every year. Even if Trump backs up on that, he still promised it. That was not even part of the agreement, but it's still something we lost. And we lost those things without even getting a binding agreement to keep talking.

At this point I'm just of the mind to let him have his way. He's not getting out of office and the whole country can be running their mouth about him as we speak but it's still not having any influence on government. All it's doing is making them stick to their guns and do what they want to anyway. The best we could do is get on their good side and try to undo the damage to their psyche that way and then pull them along elsewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the actions Trump has taken against foreign powers ultimately makes them more powerful than the US. Particularly Mexico and the Middle East. Africa is already on their way their with their infrastructure being built up by the Chinese particularly for their resources no doubt. Probably going to stay in China with the African countries getting a little sold back to them as payment.

Trump is probably a sign that America has already lost the "war" with China. China has a lot of influence that they don't show in the US. The US lost long before Trump was ever elected. People like this are elected when countries already lose their war with another country. Look at Putin and Hitler. And Kim Jung-Il (current Kim's grandfather) if I understand their system correctly. He also elected himself as the first and only Eternal President of NK. And Trump wants to do that too. Even though he's a weaker leader than the rest of those previously mentioned. At least Hitler built up a good portion of the infrastructure and advanced science in such a way that it prompted other countries to have to do the same in order to keep pace. And clearly Kim has been at this for awhile and is descended from a long line of rulers so he's been around it all his life. He's very experienced in this type of thing. Trump? This is only his second year on the job. So it was an easy play to Kim and Trump let him have it. So this all goes back to the circular motion of things. He talks a big game but he easily rolls over when prompted.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Davin on June 13, 2018, 06:01:13 PM
Changes in government take time. This current situation largely started happening near then end of Bush II, even though there have been some things to point to much earlier. That was at least 8 years. Don't come in giving up after just a year, especially not before the few times where large scale changes are possible in the votes this November and in 2020.

Many change have been made already that have had a noticeable effect. Doug Jones flipped a red seat to a blue one, and now congress is having a harder time getting even a simple majority to pass laws. It doesn't stop them, but it does help to slow the damage and is something big that has been done. Many other seats at many levels of government have switched to blue.

Trump is a sign that there is something very wrong with the country. We have been losing our world ranking for a long time now, ever since the GOP started their attack on the poor and middle class by using taxes, removing and ruining education, and spreading misinformation. For over 40 years, maybe close to 50. It's hard to pin down exactly because they started slow. But there's no question that the GOP has been against minorities since the south switched from Democrats to Republicans.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2018, 06:27:48 PM
Quote
Trump declares North Korea 'no longer a nuclear threat'
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/13/politics/trump-north-korea-nuclear-threat/index.html

Phew, that's OK then, we can all relax on that front.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Arturo on June 13, 2018, 07:57:42 PM
One way to see who a guy like Trump feels comfortable around is who does he let get away with stuff? Who does he let take power and control? And in the same way to find out who he is afraid of is who does he lash out at? Who does he try to put down and take power away from? Who does he act as an authority to despite their rejections of him?

A lot can be discerned from looking at someone's actions. He's let NK, Russia, & the Saudi's get away with a lot but not much for people here at home. The only people he let into his cabinet and put in charge of things are people who do not have America's interests in value. In fact they work to restrict those values and restrict freedoms. All the while they cozy up to people who have more power. The one thing Trump and his people are afraid of is smaller people (us) with more power than they do.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Tank on June 13, 2018, 09:44:15 PM
..
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

 :headscratch:

The agreement is not binding, but Trump already gave NK one thing they really wanted: legitimacy.
Trump also promised to cancel the military operations that we perform there with South Korea every year. Even if Trump backs up on that, he still promised it. That was not even part of the agreement, but it's still something we lost. And we lost those things without even getting a binding agreement to keep talking.

That is true.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Davin on June 13, 2018, 09:47:23 PM
..
Yeah, there are a lot of things we lost. And the agreement signed is in no way binding at all. I remember when Obama was putting forward the idea of talking to NK, the GOP flipped their shit. Obama would not have been as weak in dealing with NK.

 :headscratch:

The agreement is not binding, but Trump already gave NK one thing they really wanted: legitimacy.
Trump also promised to cancel the military operations that we perform there with South Korea every year. Even if Trump backs up on that, he still promised it. That was not even part of the agreement, but it's still something we lost. And we lost those things without even getting a binding agreement to keep talking.

That is true.
I don't have so much of an issue with them getting legitimacy, but they should also have some kind of responsibility attached to it.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 13, 2018, 11:35:49 PM
I don't really have a problem with talking to people. We talked with lots of bad people. I suppose we gave them all "legitimacy."  But nothing we did before with NK worked - they ended up with nukes irrespective of our desires.  Obama opened up to Cuba, Trump opened up to NK.  What will happen?  As the great Buddhist philosopher said: "we'll see."  As long as people aren't lobbing nukes at us, I'm at least OK.   I'm no fan of Trump and did not and will not vote for him.  But I can't generate too much anger or angst about the fact that he spoke with a ruthless dictator and signed a meaningless communique.  If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Dave on June 14, 2018, 01:45:55 AM
Quote
If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.

You sure about that, Bruce, with two men who' seem to change their opinions with their underwear? World shaking opinions seemingly based on personal feelings as much as facts.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 14, 2018, 01:48:04 AM
Quote
If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.

You sure about that, Bruce, with two men who' seem to change their opinions with their underwear? World shaking opinions seemingly based on personal feelings as much as facts.

I'm not sure about anything anymore, but it seems unlikely that right now Kim would do something crazy, even though he has nukes.  We'll see.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Dave on June 14, 2018, 02:03:19 AM
Quote
If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.

You sure about that, Bruce, with two men who' seem to change their opinions with their underwear? World shaking opinions seemingly based on personal feelings as much as facts.

I'm not sure about anything anymore, but it seems unlikely that right now Kim would do something crazy, even though he has nukes.  We'll see.

I worry less about his up-front craziness than about whst he plans behind the scenes. Tump and Kim have similar personalities and overt tactics in some ways but rather different mindsets and strategies. With Trump you tend see what you get (even if it may change by the day by whim) I think Kim holds many more of his cards up his sleeve.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Bad Penny II on June 14, 2018, 02:04:29 PM

Trump is a sign that there is something very wrong with the country. We have been losing our world ranking for a long time now, ever since the GOP started their attack on the poor and middle class by using taxes, removing and ruining education, and spreading misinformation. For over 40 years, maybe close to 50. It's hard to pin down exactly because they started slow. But there's no question that the GOP has been against minorities since the south switched from Democrats to Republicans.

I agree he is sign, a symptom. 
Many agree but disagree as to what the problem is.
You're fractured, we're all more fractured but youse are more so.
I suggest you need a white guy who could appeal across partisan lines
Ye but look what they did to Bill.
They need a celibate hetro white guy with appeal across partisan lines.
Someone with experience in calming horses?
That would be good.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Arturo on June 14, 2018, 02:13:08 PM

Trump is a sign that there is something very wrong with the country. We have been losing our world ranking for a long time now, ever since the GOP started their attack on the poor and middle class by using taxes, removing and ruining education, and spreading misinformation. For over 40 years, maybe close to 50. It's hard to pin down exactly because they started slow. But there's no question that the GOP has been against minorities since the south switched from Democrats to Republicans.

I agree he is sign, a symptom. 
Many agree but disagree as to what the problem is.
You're fractured, we're all more fractured but youse are more so.
I suggest you need a white guy who could appeal across partisan lines
Ye but look what they did to Bill.
They need a celibate hetro white guy with appeal across partisan lines.
Someone with experience in calming horses?
That would be good.

Hahaha.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Davin on June 14, 2018, 02:31:53 PM
I don't really have a problem with talking to people. We talked with lots of bad people. I suppose we gave them all "legitimacy."  But nothing we did before with NK worked - they ended up with nukes irrespective of our desires.  Obama opened up to Cuba, Trump opened up to NK.  What will happen?  As the great Buddhist philosopher said: "we'll see."  As long as people aren't lobbing nukes at us, I'm at least OK.   I'm no fan of Trump and did not and will not vote for him.  But I can't generate too much anger or angst about the fact that he spoke with a ruthless dictator and signed a meaningless communique.  If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.
Yeah, that's not the part I disagree with. It's the concessions Trump made. With Cuba, we got agreements for trade and tourism. For NK, we got nothing and gave up the joint military exercises that both the NK and Putin wanted.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on June 14, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
I don't really have a problem with talking to people. We talked with lots of bad people. I suppose we gave them all "legitimacy."  But nothing we did before with NK worked - they ended up with nukes irrespective of our desires.  Obama opened up to Cuba, Trump opened up to NK.  What will happen?  As the great Buddhist philosopher said: "we'll see."  As long as people aren't lobbing nukes at us, I'm at least OK.   I'm no fan of Trump and did not and will not vote for him.  But I can't generate too much anger or angst about the fact that he spoke with a ruthless dictator and signed a meaningless communique.  If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.
Yeah, that's not the part I disagree with. It's the concessions Trump made. With Cuba, we got agreements for trade and tourism. For NK, we got nothing and gave up the joint military exercises that both the NK and Putin wanted.

True.  What the long term holds is very unclear now.
Title: Re: The Trump - Kim Jong-un Chat Thread
Post by: Dave on June 14, 2018, 08:47:03 PM
I don't really have a problem with talking to people. We talked with lots of bad people. I suppose we gave them all "legitimacy."  But nothing we did before with NK worked - they ended up with nukes irrespective of our desires.  Obama opened up to Cuba, Trump opened up to NK.  What will happen?  As the great Buddhist philosopher said: "we'll see."  As long as people aren't lobbing nukes at us, I'm at least OK.   I'm no fan of Trump and did not and will not vote for him.  But I can't generate too much anger or angst about the fact that he spoke with a ruthless dictator and signed a meaningless communique.  If two people are talking, at least they probably won't be trying to kill each other in the near future.
Yeah, that's not the part I disagree with. It's the concessions Trump made. With Cuba, we got agreements for trade and tourism. For NK, we got nothing and gave up the joint military exercises that both the NK and Putin wanted.

True.  What the long term holds is very unclear now.

"Unclear" but hopefully not "nuclear"

 :grin: