Happy Atheist forum

General => Politics => Topic started by: Old Seer on May 08, 2018, 02:49:17 AM

Title: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 08, 2018, 02:49:17 AM
They want to past a law that makes it a crime to "weaponize" civilian drones or use them to help your buddies do crimes. Blink, Blink. Y/N- do you think a person wanting to do a crime cares about whether it's illegal to help commit a crime with a drone and drops a 1 lb bomb on a street corner.
Lemme see here now. If I was with a few guys that wanted to rob the local bank if I employed my drone for a share of the take, would I care if it was illegal. Hmmm, no. As far as I would be concerned using the drone would improve the chances of a successful venture. (as long as they couldn't find out who's drone it is) Isn't that the idea of why people do things illegal---because  they don't care if it's illegal.  Am I missing something here.  ::)
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Arturo on May 08, 2018, 03:56:11 AM
The fact they make it illegal gives them something to punish for.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 08, 2018, 07:17:07 AM
Sort of sgree with Arturo. The mere posession of a drone modified for possible criminal use could be taken as "evidence of intent". Gives the police an excuse to interogate people and search property.

Terrorists have not taken advantage of these yet. Should they do so ine might expect severe load carrying limitations on unregistered drones. But then, why worry about a drone when you can buy semi-automatic weapons just down the road and open carry in some places?
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 08, 2018, 04:51:44 PM
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 08, 2018, 05:16:04 PM
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.

I know that it is a slightly different application but rescue drones, carrying floatation aids, are being trialled. Not sure of their carrying capacity but if Amazon are even thinking about deliveries by drones a useful payload/range/control may be available that are suitable for some criminal or terrorist purposes.

UK prisons are already being fitted with "electronic fences" designed to interfere with drone control systems, not to crash them because that may cause third party injury or damage but to "persuade" them to return home. Drones have been used to deliver drugs, SIMs and even phones to individual windows. For high value stuff range may be less important in terms of the return journey; sacrificial drones, with small batteries to increase carrying capacity, may be deemed worth it.

With drone components, 3D printers etc being easily available a nice little industry might build up unless the law and technology get a grip. In the past the law has often been retroactive, now it needs to be proactive, technology leaps and bounds ahead very rapidly!

Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 08, 2018, 05:42:48 PM
You can't yet 3D print the parts needed to protect a bomb from being accidentally triggered by rogue signals. Buying something that will work, along with a heavy duty drone, should trigger all the flags. Just routing a wire from a drone to the detonator will not work. They don't care if a wire randomly spikes for a fraction of a second, and they tend to do that a lot. It doesn't noticeably affect the operation of the drone unless you are tracking the data. It takes some very delicate electronic equipment to have a live wire that doesn't have spike. Detonators are safe, but they are also watched.

I'm sure that stuff is on more than a few watch lists, which is why they tend to use more common detonation technology that is more prone to accidental triggering. Which is relatively fine, if you're wearing a vest and walking into a crowd, the chances it will accidentally detonate increases the more other people around them that are using their phones or other electronic devices, which doesn't really hurt their goal.

They might be able to build their own, but I don't think they have the time and resources for the R&D.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 08, 2018, 09:20:05 PM
Mainly what I was getting at/to, is this the same as the right to keep and bear arms. I wouldn't think so because the founders didn't have drones. But, all drones without serial numbers would have to be made illegal. Part of my point, how can the control and use of drones be regulated. OK, via serial numbers and registry as if a drone were considered a licensable aircraft. But there again, if I wanted to help someone do a crime I can make them a drone to suit the crime. At the same time it's abit harder to machine out a pistol then it is to make a drone, as the drone is made by different process and machine.
 Here's a link that got me going on this- it came from my firfox morning opener, and some of you probably get the same.

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/05/criminal-gang-used-drone-swarm-obstruct-fbi-raid/147956/

Here's my problem with this (I could have done a better job with the OP) A drone is not a rifle and it's use can be extremely covert, very quiet propellers etc. I (and as well as you if your into the sciences and physics as I) can use this device so secretly I can't be caught, except over time. There's no known manufacturer, no known origin, which means I can use them the same as the Gov on a battle field. I wouldn't have to worry about defeat radar as the job would be done before they could do anything about it. 

Ok, so here's the problem--- the very invention of this device created something that cannot be beat. Think about that--and that's the point I was trying to make. How do regulations stop the works????? What laws can you propose to keep police depts from misuse of this device--because as everything else they will misuse it.

Anyone can set one of these down anywhere unnoticed, drive away, and let it do it's thing it's programed to do---no remote guidance needed. Thats what makes it different then a firearm. It becomes a self guided projectile. anyone can make or have made.
 Forget the link, you'll have to register- you probably can search online
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 08, 2018, 09:37:44 PM
They'd need some powerful drones to lift the payload, which is usually not efficient so ends up being pretty heavy. The cell phone stuff they use to detonate the bomb can be triggered accidentally by other radio waves, and when you're flying a device by radio waves, that doesn't make it very useful because it could blow up in the air too far away from buildings or people to cause any damage. And to upgrade their detonation technology to something more reliable, they'd trigger some flags when purchasing the parts.

I know that it is a slightly different application but rescue drones, carrying floatation aids, are being trialled. Not sure of their carrying capacity but if Amazon are even thinking about deliveries by drones a useful payload/range/control may be available that are suitable for some criminal or terrorist purposes.

UK prisons are already being fitted with "electronic fences" designed to interfere with drone control systems, not to crash them because that may cause third party injury or damage but to "persuade" them to return home. Drones have been used to deliver drugs, SIMs and even phones to individual windows. For high value stuff range may be less important in terms of the return journey; sacrificial drones, with small batteries to increase carrying capacity, may be deemed worth it.

With drone components, 3D printers etc being easily available a nice little industry might build up unless the law and technology get a grip. In the past the law has often been retroactive, now it needs to be proactive, technology leaps and bounds ahead very rapidly!
You brought out my point exactly. If I want to burn down my rich uncle's house in the middle of the night to inherit his pazoozas what's to stop me. Bear in mind--there's no physical presents of me in the area, and all there is - is suspicion. Suspicion won't stop my inheritance. I don't have to sneak or throw a toaster in to the shower etc. And, I have 42 other relatives, if any of them have a drone hobby---I'm in the clear. So, law or no law anyone can have a handy device that can't be traced. This gives those who already are criminals a very unique helping hand. The Al Capones in the world don't need tommy guns any more.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 08, 2018, 09:39:02 PM
Hmm, can we expect anti-drone electronic counter measures mounted on every cellphone mast? Cover all urban areas, at least, with antidrone noise, portable undercover units available for specific operations? Ice cream vans with antennas inside the glassfibre cone, or whatever, on the roof?

It's all getting very sci-fi, but, that is part of the nature of developing technology after all, catching up with fiction. The baddies do their best to at least keep up with the goodies, or even keep in trick ahead. I would love to know just what kind, if any, predictive research into which possible criminal use of technology will pop up next. But, as I said before, such work is usually retroactive. Or should that be reactionary?

There has to be a story theme here . . .
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 08, 2018, 09:45:59 PM
Drones are not unstoppable nor untraceable. They are not some kind of magical technology that defies physics.

Currently, AI is not good enough for drones to self pilot. And the ones that can manage to pilot without a human operator do so with the heavy use of data from one or many services which can and often are tracked (sometimes without even a warrant).

The more criminals use the technology, the faster law enforcement will figure out how to subvert and trace down the people using it.

Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 08, 2018, 10:29:06 PM
Drones are not unstoppable nor untraceable. They are not some kind of magical technology that defies physics.

Currently, AI is not good enough for drones to self pilot. And the ones that can manage to pilot without a human operator do so with the heavy use of data from one or many services which can and often are tracked (sometimes without even a warrant).

The more criminals use the technology, the faster law enforcement will figure out how to subvert and trace down the people using it.

Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.
Google is already working with the military to put AI in drones. Being familiar with GPS I know vwry well I can make a drone go anywhere within it's limit and land "on the GPS spot" I want it to. It's already being done at Quartzsite AZ every winter. I stay there over winter with a camping permit on BLM land and watch guys flying these things everywhere. If it gets out of sight a button is pressed that resets the GPS and it will return to where it took off. From what I've seen it's already here. It won't require AI, all thats needed is GPS capability. Campers are already getting highly irritated by drones from some where else whizzing around their campsites. There's groups of ATV types that send notes and maps to each other via drone before the mornings desert trip.  One fella was so upset he's bringing a shotgun next year to down any drone in his vicinity. Having watched this sort of thing all I'm saying is--it's already out of hand. I'm not in a panic--I've seen what's already happening. There's no way a drone can be tracked as to who owns it, or where it came from if the operator wants it that way. International criminals are already building their own drones and there's not a thing Scotland Yard can do about it. Making it illegal to build a private drone wouldn't stop anything. That's the #1 problem with criminals, they don't obey laws. :)
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 08, 2018, 10:34:16 PM
Quote
Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.

I think we understand that, Davin, there is a touch of humour in this thread I think. But, getting into the wider tech crime field, it takes effort to keep up with how the bad guys use technology, or there would be an swful lots less online fraud and hacking. Not unstoppable, but for as long as it can be moved, morphed, disguised by novel means etc the good guys will always be lagging. They may get their man, after the crime. Unless, of vourse, they do get permission access all encyphered systems, to monitor every single phone call, email, Tweet etc for key words/patterns. That will need a very large amount of kit and lots of trained people - or "proper" AIs. And there are billions of potential "one time only" code words and phrases that could be used.

I wonder what the ratio of all very clever people doing all levels of naughty things to the number of good guys trying to catch them and safeguard the future against them is. The person, msybe a kid, in his/her bedroom/hotel room with a laptop is "cheaper" than the security agency team tasked with finding him. It takes a couple of dozen well trained and equipped agents to successully follow one person 24/7 physically. Unless the hacker person has already done something that makes him/her a suspect they are effectively invisible until their work becomes visible due to its effects - and therefore possibly traceable back. To where the laptop was used and has long since moved from. If they made a million all the kit is probably at the bottom of the nearest lake. Even fires can leave forensic evidence in or near them.

I am still half working out the plot and line of my story here. Need viable kinks and loops that have not become too common in the genre yet. Please pick it apart! As fiction gets ideas from reality the opposite can actually apply.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: jumbojak on May 09, 2018, 03:31:30 AM
I wonder how much fears like this will hamper "legitimate" drone usage? I'd very much like to have one for checking fence lines and cattle. It's a great piece of technology that could save a lot of man hours, especially if the operation can be automated. They are already in use for exactly this purpose in some areas. There's no telling what sort if silly rules might be put in place as people grow more paranoid about drone usage.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Arturo on May 09, 2018, 03:56:32 AM
I remember when drones were toys you would get your nephew for christmas...sigh
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 09, 2018, 04:51:01 AM
I wonder how much fears like this will hamper "legitimate" drone usage? I'd very much like to have one for checking fence lines and cattle. It's a great piece of technology that could save a lot of man hours, especially if the operation can be automated. They are already in use for exactly this purpose in some areas. There's no telling what sort if silly rules might be put in place as people grow more paranoid about drone usage.

Yeah, the legit uses are grest, we even have a licenced drone operator advertise in our village magazine to do surveys for farmers. Let's hope that the crims, and kids who fly them irresponsibly, don't cause the authotities to do worse than require licencing. Not that that will stop the problems much. But it may also curb a lot of innocent fun.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 09, 2018, 03:11:35 PM
Drones are not unstoppable nor untraceable. They are not some kind of magical technology that defies physics.

Currently, AI is not good enough for drones to self pilot. And the ones that can manage to pilot without a human operator do so with the heavy use of data from one or many services which can and often are tracked (sometimes without even a warrant).

The more criminals use the technology, the faster law enforcement will figure out how to subvert and trace down the people using it.

Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.
Google is already working with the military to put AI in drones. Being familiar with GPS I know vwry well I can make a drone go anywhere within it's limit and land "on the GPS spot" I want it to. It's already being done at Quartzsite AZ every winter. I stay there over winter with a camping permit on BLM land and watch guys flying these things everywhere. If it gets out of sight a button is pressed that resets the GPS and it will return to where it took off. From what I've seen it's already here. It won't require AI, all thats needed is GPS capability. Campers are already getting highly irritated by drones from some where else whizzing around their campsites. There's groups of ATV types that send notes and maps to each other via drone before the mornings desert trip.  One fella was so upset he's bringing a shotgun next year to down any drone in his vicinity. Having watched this sort of thing all I'm saying is--it's already out of hand. I'm not in a panic--I've seen what's already happening. There's no way a drone can be tracked as to who owns it, or where it came from if the operator wants it that way. International criminals are already building their own drones and there's not a thing Scotland Yard can do about it. Making it illegal to build a private drone wouldn't stop anything.
They've spent more than a decade putting AI in cars and that's still a long ways off, and requires a lot of data to be shared with the vehicles as well as lot of sensors of all kinds. An unmanned drone would need to be pretty big. There are tech demos that look nice in very controlled conditions following a path that has been tested hundreds of times. And it's great when you see the one video where it worked but miss out on the hundreds that didn't. The technology still has a long way to go, and even with automated flying, it requires a lot of data. Drones can be tracked to who owns them, at least the bigger ones. And ones that use GPS absolutely can be tracked. Things can absolutely be done about the drones.

Quote from: Old Seer
That's the #1 problem with criminals, they don't obey laws. :)
I hear this argument pretty often and it fails in a lot of ways. Murder is illegal, but people still do it, so it's true that just making things illegal doesn't prevent them from happening. But if murder were not illegal, what would you expect the police to do about it? Murder would be legal. Then someone's kid gets murdered and you come along and say, "well, we can't do anything about murder because criminals do things that are illegal anyway." While murder remains legal, the cops can't do anything about it and people committing murder aren't even criminals because they're not doing anything illegal.

That said, all but the tiny drones should absolutely be licensed, not merely for the criminals, but because people need to be responsible fliers because those things can be dangerous.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 09, 2018, 03:36:03 PM
Quote
Relax, drones do not represent the end of law and order.

I think we understand that, Davin, there is a touch of humour in this thread I think.
There is always a touch of humor. What I'm seeing in large amounts though, is a crime show level of understanding.
That video is hilarious to anyone who actually knows what they're doing. Hell, anyone who just barely got into programming will find that video hilarious.

Another hilarious trope that happens in movies and shows is that it takes like 60 seconds to trace a call... don't rely on that in real life. Even with cell pones it barely takes a second. It would only take 60 seconds if people were doing the triangulation math by hand.

Tracking hackers is also easier that you think. At least in first world countries. The kind of hacker it would take to not be tracked down would be extremely rare and incredibly lucky in today's day and age. It's only a problem when a hacker hides out in a country without as much technology and/or is not very agreeable to help. That is one thing that diplomats facilitate. In the US, agencies already have nearly unfettered access to ISP servers. There are things a hacker can do to hide themselves, but it takes a lot of work and knowledge and a little luck. Most "hackers" these days though are people that read through forums for exploits and scripts to exploit them, hardly any skill or knowledge involved, and they are easy to catch.

It just seems like a lot of "knowledge" going around in this thread is coming not from reality, but from shows whose job it is to twist real life things or make up things to create suspense and drama. That's all fine in the realm of the show, but try to differentiate between that and reality.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 09, 2018, 04:50:01 PM
Well, trying to keep it light, but . . .

I have not watched TV for 12 years and never bothered with that sort of stuff anyway. A lifetime of being a sci-fi fan and some engineering training and experience, with a life long interest in science, helps me filter possible from improbable or impossible (so far as we know) technology.

So I am left with online media articles and I am very, very sceptical and wary of newspaper and other sites with an agenda or ideology and even try to verify scientific ones with other sources sometimes. Even treat the BBC with a degree of care. Very, very careful of anything on Youtube! Never buy a newspaper.

Any idea what the ratio of stopped major hacks, before any damage is done, to partially or wholey successful attacks? What percentage of aggressive bots are blocked before they do their job?
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 09, 2018, 05:01:39 PM
Based on my own and the company servers, nearly 100% of all hacking attacks are stopped. If out of a million attacks, one gets through, that's nearly a 100% defense.

Look at your own virus protection, most tend to block several kinds of attacks a day, more if you're looking at more disreputable sites.

When only the successful attacks make it to the news, it's tough to put that into perspective when billions of attacks are thwarted a day across all the various major web sites.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 09, 2018, 05:16:49 PM
Guessed the answer would be something like that but how many of those blocked millions are "pre-recognised" ones, of known type and origin with a fix, rather than brand new jobs?

My Avira software seems to report two or three unrecognised ones, that it isolates, a year max to my memory. Hope it's doing its job! I rend to worry more about strange emails at at least one a month.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 09, 2018, 07:45:07 PM
It takes a long time to find an exploit, and even with highly skilled hackers, it takes a little luck to find one. It helps to know not just how software works, but how the hardware works as well. But that is still no guarantee of finding a vulnerability. There are no doubt thousands of vulnerabilities existing in all software right now, it's just that no one has found them. With modern coding practices, most of the vulnerabilities are taken care of, but there are ones that no one knows about yet.

The good news is, that no one is going to put thousands of hours of effort into attacking someone's personal computer in order to find an exploit that likely won't even have a pay off. There is a high likely hood, I would say a certainty, that there are vulnerabilities sitting on your devices due to the combination of software and hardware combinations you are using. You're fine though.

People don't really hack because they are looking for a challenge, that is something made up a bit from the bravado of caught hackers and fictional representations of hackers. They, not unlike other criminals, are looking for low effort payouts. There are some times where some will focus effort on a challenge, but it is highly unlikely that you will ever fall victim to that. Keep your software updated, keep your anti-virus up, and you'll be fine. Avira is good.

Other good news, is that there are some really smart people who's job it is to find vulnerabilities and point them out to the software owners. That pays a lot better than exploiting the vulnerabilities and there is also significantly less risk of being arrested.

You should be a little worried about it, but worrying too much does no good.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 09, 2018, 08:59:22 PM
I'll just drop this here for readers to opine on . . .

[. . .]
The criminal UAV issue is not limited to America by any means. Police in the UK received 3,456 incident reports of drones behaving badly in 2016, a threefold jump from 2015, a 12-fold increase since 2014 and equivalent to 10 complaints a day. The incidents ranged from minor spats between neighbors to covertly dropping drugs and firearms into prisons. A photographer even managed to set his camera drone down aboard Britain's biggest warship, the HMS Queen Elizabeth, with nary a consequence. As the photographer told the BBC:

I could have been anybody. It was like a ghost ship. I would say my mistake should open their eyes to a glaring gap in security. This was a bit of tomfoolery, but it could have been something terrible, not just for the ship and its crew but for the people of Invergordon...

[. . .]

UAVs have also proved quite useful to some of the most ruthless and powerful crime syndicates in South America. Last November, Colombian law enforcement discovered 287 pounds of cocaine as well as a disassembled UAV, possibly belonging to the Clan del Golfo criminal organization, buried on a beach in the coastal town of Bahía Solano.

"The drone was used to carry cocaine to Panama, it had the capacity to transport 10 kilos [22 pounds] on each trip and to travel a distance of 100 kilometers [62 miles]," José Acevedo, the regional police commander, told El Siglo. While the police did not specify what kind of drone was hidden, the fact that it can carry 22 pounds a trip strongly suggests this was a more robust device than the typical commercially available UAV.

[. . .]

However, law enforcement is far from helpless in countering these incidents. Michael Blades, research director at market-research firm Frost & Sullivan, recently told Air and Space Magazine that the anti-drone business is worth "between $500 million and a billion dollars right now" and could grow to $1.3 billion by 2023. "I think double-digit growth is a foregone conclusion," he said, "just because they're starting from almost zero right now."

Counter-drone systems are as varied as they are numerous, ranging from shotgun shells loaded with wire nets to eagles trained to snatch UAVs from midair. Snake River Shooting, an Idaho-based ammo manufacturer, has even come out with "dronemunition," ferromagnetic birdshot packed into 12-gauge shotgun shells. Many counter-drone technologies, however, are far less dramatic and instead rely on radio-frequency jamming to take out the offending UAV. The DoD's Navy Special Warfare Command in July signed a $1.5 million contract with SkySafe to develop a vehicle-mounted RF jammer that can identify, track and disable enemy UAVs before they can get close enough to do harm to friendly troops.


https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/11/drone-crime-how-cops-stop-it/
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 09, 2018, 09:09:48 PM
And a bit on anti-drone measures:

Quote
How police catch drone-flying criminals
[. . .]
But just as investigators only began to understand the enormous forensic resource that mobile phones represent around the turn of the century, the tougher challenges of drone forensics are now quietly beginning to be met, too.

It isn’t in the bulky device itself. It’s the fact that it’s part of a complex digital ecosystem.

All these issues are adding up to a need for more investigative tools, says James Mackler, an attorney specialising in drone litigation at Mackler Law Firm in Nashville, Tennessee.

"Drone forensics are becoming increasingly important as more drones take to the air. Civilian commercial drones are now being used by terrorist organisations and the fact that they are being weaponised makes forensics all the more critical." He knows the risks more than most: he’s a former US Army helicopter pilot who flew missions alongside military drones in Iraq.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170731-how-cops-catch-drone-flying-criminals
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 10, 2018, 12:50:25 AM
To try to do a crime with a manufactured drone would be foolish I think. Having read the article I found it very interesting. But doncha think a person would be smart enough to know one would have to make up their own from scratch  and make it specialized. If I was to use one for covert ops I definitely wouldn't incorporate a tracking system or any kind of onboard information registry.
I understand the GPS tracking systems as I have one I use at Quartzsite AZ for prospecting. I have to turn it off and only use it on site. If I find a trace of gold I take the coordinates, write them down and then turn it off. It has a track system that I can use to go back to  a certain spot. I don't let it log anything to protect where I've been or any back track info. The reason I turn it off is to be sure the tracking is off and the unit isn't logging anything unintended while moving to other places . It's a real pain to have to do it that way, but leaving coordinates in the unit will allow someone else to find the spot I was at. A GPS unit in a drone allows the same thing. It would be rather silly to use a drone for a crime if it can be tracked. I'd say a drone is a perfect crime device if one is aware of what not to incorporate into and (in case of video) what not to record.  Don't record anything, just use the camera for a seeing eye.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 10, 2018, 03:24:27 PM
If someone could make a drone from scratch, not only would they find more money and less risk using their skills elsewhere, but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. One way or another, using a drone is traceable.

I don't care how smart a criminal is, they can't make processor's from scratch. And if they could, the processors would be too big and too slow to be able to handle anything that is required for operating the drone. They have to buy or harvest those processors which leaves a trail. This is not a technology that can be created by hand from scratch, the most important parts would need to be bought or stolen.

The chances that a group of criminals would be able to build a drone from scratch is extremely low, I'd colloquially say impossible, and it's not the kind of hard work criminals are known for.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2018, 04:23:23 PM
Quote
If someone could make a drone from scratch, not only would they find more money and less risk using their skills elsewhere, but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. One way or another, using a drone is traceable.

You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .

If I used Amazon there would be a trail from my card admittedly, but how many hundreds of motors, props and batteries are sold every month? I have a long record of buying all kinds of electronic stuff, including RF transmitter/receiver pairs, coded and open,  high power switching FETs etc which, so far as I know, has triggered no official flags. Since I was in the RAF and worked for a weapons systems company at one time I have signed the OSA several times and been vetted once - so I am on official lists still almost certainly.

How would they trace those items to me? If I were planning sonething naughty I might get "accomplices" in other locations to order single items and post them on to me. As it is about 4 small packages come through my letterbox every week. Of course, this stuff is all for my creative and inventive hobbies . . . And betcha there are people at least as able as me on the naughty side of things.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 10, 2018, 05:28:06 PM
Quote
If someone could make a drone from scratch, not only would they find more money and less risk using their skills elsewhere, but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. One way or another, using a drone is traceable.

You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .

If I used Amazon there would be a trail from my card admittedly, but how many hundreds of motors, props and batteries are sold every month? I have a long record of buying all kinds of electronic stuff, including RF transmitter/receiver pairs, coded and open,  high power switching FETs etc which, so far as I know, has triggered no official flags. Since I was in the RAF and worked for a weapons systems company at one time I have signed the OSA several times and been vetted once - so I am on official lists still almost certainly.

How would they trace those items to me? If I were planning sonething naughty I might get "accomplices" in other locations to order single items and post them on to me. As it is about 4 small packages come through my letterbox every week. Of course, this stuff is all for my creative and inventive hobbies . . . And betcha there are people at least as able as me on the naughty side of things.
The first flaw in your plan would be---your accomplices. But, you may have no choice, it may be one cannot do everything needed to make a plan work. I worked out how not to have others in on the deal----decoy drones. The first problem in using one is---people may see where it came from. So, you may have to wait until others in the ares are sport using theirs or divert attention with a decoy so the origin can't be determined. One also has to conclude that the drone is expendable and subject to one's loss. The best is---let them have or give it to them. Just land it and they'll take it. You wouldn't want it returning because that puts it back in your possession as evidence. In this case--the evidence isn't evidence. If you start the flight from a remote location (away from you) it got there unseen/unnoticed. Depending upon your intent you may have to get to know you first. Greed will get you caught, as will impatience, etc.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2018, 06:53:02 PM
Quote
If someone could make a drone from scratch, not only would they find more money and less risk using their skills elsewhere, but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. One way or another, using a drone is traceable.

You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .

If I used Amazon there would be a trail from my card admittedly, but how many hundreds of motors, props and batteries are sold every month? I have a long record of buying all kinds of electronic stuff, including RF transmitter/receiver pairs, coded and open,  high power switching FETs etc which, so far as I know, has triggered no official flags. Since I was in the RAF and worked for a weapons systems company at one time I have signed the OSA several times and been vetted once - so I am on official lists still almost certainly.

How would they trace those items to me? If I were planning sonething naughty I might get "accomplices" in other locations to order single items and post them on to me. As it is about 4 small packages come through my letterbox every week. Of course, this stuff is all for my creative and inventive hobbies . . . And betcha there are people at least as able as me on the naughty side of things.
The first flaw in your plan would be---your accomplices. But, you may have no choice, it may be one cannot do everything needed to make a plan work. I worked out how not to have others in on the deal----decoy drones. The first problem in using one is---people may see where it came from. So, you may have to wait until others in the ares are sport using theirs or divert attention with a decoy so the origin can't be determined. One also has to conclude that the drone is expendable and subject to one's loss. The best is---let them have or give it to them. Just land it and they'll take it. You wouldn't want it returning because that puts it back in your possession as evidence. In this case--the evidence isn't evidence. If you start the flight from a remote location (away from you) it got there unseen/unnoticed. Depending upon your intent you may have to get to know you first. Greed will get you caught, as will impatience, etc.

Oh, I think I have the mechanical and most of the electronic skills and tools plus the ability to read up on the rest. One might even design a perfectly innocent, hobby design level, project to use much of the stuff as camouflage. Robot hobby projects are all the rage now . . .The accomplices were mainly to spread the acquisition geographically, just in case. But, it is true that every extra person one involes is an added risk.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 10, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .
Yep, in other words, not from scratch and traceable. I don't see what I have to expand on you seem to have gotten it.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2018, 08:30:07 PM
You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .
Yep, in other words, not from scratch and traceable. I don't see what I have to expand on you seem to have gotten it.

Hmm, well I was querying the "but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. ". As I impkied, my attic and small dining table would surfice, I could possibly get away without using my oscilloscope and lab power supply for a single clandestine unit - just "normal" hobby tools and a bit of brain power.

Hmm, there are those types who would rather do this kind of work than have a legit job. How many brilliant hackers are out there doing risky stuff when they could earn a bundle, steadily and at less risk, in a company or agency? The criminal mind does not work like ours methinks. I am not interested in another full time job but maybe grabbing a quick grand or so for a week's work (including delivery time) . . . And once a design and templates are made the second unit comes quicker.

No, actually I can't be bothered! But I might do it just for fun, I rather fancy the idea of a wooden drone! Good design excercise seeking strength with lightness and fancy fretwork needed.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 10, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
You will have to expand on that for me, Davin. I reckon, with the tools in my attic, I could build the frame for a special purpose, certainly a single use, drone from model grade ply and/or plastic without too much trouble. Motors, props and batteries are available from Amazon, and probably via the local model shop. Transmitting camera and video receiver I have never looked for, but would probably be "won" from a smaller shop-bought-for-cash one. Ditto remote control. Those shop-bought-for-cash jobs could be used as-is for light loads with very little traceability. The launch/cintrol point would be the most dangerous place if the authorities were on their toes and you have not stolen a decent get-away vehicle for the purpose . . .
Yep, in other words, not from scratch and traceable. I don't see what I have to expand on you seem to have gotten it.

Hmm, well I was querying the "but they'd have to have a very large work space with a lot of specialized equipment. ". As I impkied, my attic and small dining table would surfice, I could possibly get away without using my oscilloscope and lab power supply for a single clandestine unit - just "normal" hobby tools and a bit of brain power.

Hmm, there are those types who would rather do this kind of work than have a legit job. How many brilliant hackers are out there doing risky stuff when they could earn a bundle, steadily and at less risk, in a company or agency? The criminal mind does not work like ours methinks. I am not interested in another full time job but maybe grabbing a quick grand or so for a week's work (including delivery time) . . . And once a design and templates are made the second unit comes quicker.

No, actually I can't be bothered! But I might do it just for fun, I rather fancy the idea of a wooden drone! Good design excercise seeking strength with lightness and fancy fretwork needed.
If you're going to make processors, propellers, cameras, and everything else from scratch, you're going to need a lot more equipment and a place to put it all. You're also going to need a place to get the raw materials from. You're also going to need a way to mask the fumes from production. If you buy those things instead from Amazon and/or hobby shops then you're traceable.

Hackers like that don't really exist. The ones taking the risks for quick scores are not that great. The good ones are getting paid for their expertise in much less risky ventures. Look back at the phreakers, even Cap'n Crunch wasn't that great, he risked a lot for very little and got caught. He didn't look for challenges, he looked for easy ways to circumvent systems. Kevin Mitnik used manipulative techniques on people to find ways past challenging technology barriers. Even the "great" hackers were more concerned about finding the easy way than they were about meeting the challenge. And they were all caught because they failed to adapt when the systems they were attacking became more complicated and more challenging. I can't think of a hacker that actually went for something more challenging instead of the first easy way that works. This idea that there are hackers that are simply doing it for the challenge is a fairy tale. As much as they would like to present themselves, these are not wizards warping reality to their will, they are simply opportunists much like any other criminal.

I don't understand this glorification of hackers as challenge seekers. Spend some time around them, talk to them, and/or work with them. Then you won't keep making that mistake. There are hardly any brilliant hackers out there that are stealing from people, they make a lot of money finding vulnerabilities and reporting them, consulting, and helping companies beef up their security. Sure, some of those brilliant ones did some bad things, but us regular people don't need to fear them.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2018, 09:57:53 PM
Aw, c'mon, Davin! When did the goal posts move to making every frigging component needed from processors up?

If you are saying that every purchaser of every electronic unit, from basic stuff up, is monitored, logged and flagged it would probably bankrupt all the security budgets America and Europe has. Looking for reliable patterns surely requires the analysis of a very large percentage of all traffic or sales. Should I start buying oxidisers - nitrates, peroxide etc - and suitable fuels on line or in bulk yes, I would expect a knock on the door. Batteries, motors, props, RC units are all hobby stuff - the level the work would be carried out at.

Or is every battery, motor, RC unit, camera et al, bought directly from China, logged by the security services for trace-back purposes?

This conversation is getting stupid, and not in a funny way.

Remind me not to bother in future please.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Icarus on May 11, 2018, 01:28:43 AM
I have enough model maker stuff in my garage to build more than one functional drone. Motors, some of which came from battery powered drills,  from various kid toys from garage sales, from $19.95 RC boats at Wal Mart,  Transmitters, receivers, electronic speed controllers, A whole drawer full of servos, and pretty much any other component Needed. I even have several pounds of tiny bolts and nuts from many years of model making., playing with RC aircraft, RC sail boats, and other such toys for grown up kids. . There are the hobby trader meets where all sorts of things are exchanged for all sorts of other things , often enough from total strangers who keep no records of trades or the money they might make from a simple sale, or several sales.

I have no particular interest in drones and no particular interest in using my Go Cam, attached to a drone,  to look into the windows of the girls dorm at one of the nearby colleges.  I am not much interested in surveying or bombing or using an incendiary device to get revenge on my neighbor.................actually there is one....naaah never mind.  Not a neighbor, a business MFer who hornswoggled me out of three grand  two years ago.

 If I was motivated to do some evil I could, and I would not be traced.  I am no where near the intellect of Ted Kazinski, the Unabomber,  but he could jolly well make and use drones if he had wished to do so.  There be dragons out there. Lots of dragons, clever fire breathing ones.

I swear to the reader that I am personally acquainted with at least 10 individuals who are eminently capable of building a drone if they wanted to.  I think that there are a few HAFers who could do that too.  JJ is plenty clever, He'd use some haywire and tractor pats. Dave is crafty and capable, and it would not surprise me if Mags could build a drone if she damn well wanted to. She is a smart butterfly/witch.  The witch part could easily conceal the sources of the necessary parts.  Hermes no problem, he could do some serious chemical dispersal harm if he chose.  how about Claire Lion tamer? She is a physics girl.   This is not about capability.  It is about intent.



Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: jumbojak on May 11, 2018, 01:43:11 AM
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 11, 2018, 02:13:11 AM
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
This is what I kinda had in mind with the OP. At Quartzsite each winter there's 7000 and more RV snowbirds from all over the US and Canada. That's an attraction for all manner of venders, and the best ones are the gadget sellers. The gadget lady has every kind of electric DC motor from thumb size to drill size. All sorts of gadgets and hobby tools. I don't think the average person that has a drone would be to interested (or have the intellect) to do a crime with a drone. I spent some time today figuring out how to rob a bank to see what the specs would be. Nada--it's to complicated and a drone dosen't fit the logic to use it for such, But, the big guys dealing drugs etc would have a practical use for them.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 11, 2018, 07:08:59 AM
This thread got me to thinking... a drone actually would be pretty easy to build. Between plastic sheeting for the frame, wood for the propellers, the arduinos I have lying around, and a bit of ingenuity with secondhand motors I could throw one together.

I read a few articles over lunch and was suprised by just how hard the authors thought it would be to source these sorts of parts. Several recommended buying plastic props over wood because wooden ones were more expensive. But... There's wood EVERYWHERE! It actually grows on trees.

Heck, an enterprising person could make their own drive motors if they really needed to. Hole in the ground with charcoal and a hairdryer to melt aluminum, whip up a bit of green sand for the castings. Rig up a lathe to turn the windings and you're in business.

It'd be a lot of fun to do. Shame I have too many irons in the fire as it is. :(
This is what I kinda had in mind with the OP. At Quartzsite each winter there's 7000 and more RV snowbirds from all over the US and Canada. That's an attraction for all manner of venders, and the best ones are the gadget sellers. The gadget lady has every kind of electric DC motor from thumb size to drill size. All sorts of gadgets and hobby tools. I don't think the average person that has a drone would be to interested (or have the intellect) to do a crime with a drone. I spent some time today figuring out how to rob a bank to see what the specs would be. Nada--it's to complicated and a drone dosen't fit the logic to use it for such, But, the big guys dealing drugs etc would have a practical use for them.

Yes, horses for courses, even the best tool is useless for a specific task it is not deeigned for. "Couriering" yes, actually robhing bsnks no. But, for the moment and until the security services, private and official, catch up "casing the joint" - landing a drone on a hewrby rooftop at night, might prove useful. Battery life is a big factor, but there are possibilities, the drone might just deliver a "robot" camera package, not stay there itself. All spevulation but not fully outside current tech possibly.

Perhaps, one day, like the anti-bird nets and plastic spikes used on roofs in Gloucester sensitive areas will bristle with drone countermeasures! Solar powered units with detectors for drone audio or RF signatures and the capability of zapping their control units. . . OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it? Depends how much of a problem drones become to those who have something to protect and the clout and cash to do something about it.

From then it is just a battle of inventiveness, measures and counter measures, desires and thwarts, just the way a lot of other tech gets advanced.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Recusant on May 11, 2018, 11:34:06 AM
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol (http://scipol.duke.edu/content/startups-are-using-birds-gas-and-guns-take-down-unwanted-drones). I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 11, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol (http://scipol.duke.edu/content/startups-are-using-birds-gas-and-guns-take-down-unwanted-drones). I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 11, 2018, 03:03:10 PM
Aw, c'mon, Davin! When did the goal posts move to making every frigging component needed from processors up?
I never moved the goal posts, if you look back at what I said, that should be clear.

Not every component is tracked, but specific ones are, and as long as they are not purchased along with certain other products, people are fine. Even if people buy a flagging combination, that just means they get researched, and possibly watched more closely. It does not bankrupt security budgets, 99% of the work is automated. If you look at what was released from Snowden, you'll see that while they are busy, applications take on the bulk of the data sifting.

I'd like to see someone build a drone. Take pictures and whatnot showing all the parts used. Hell, show me ten different people making a drone with all the parts used.

Any idiot can just say something is possible, it takes more to actually demonstrate it. We have up to 13 people mentioned in this thread that are said to have the ability to do it, I say do it then. If a criminal can do it in an untraceable way, surely it wouldn't take that much of someone's time to just do what you say you can do.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 11, 2018, 05:52:42 PM
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol (http://scipol.duke.edu/content/startups-are-using-birds-gas-and-guns-take-down-unwanted-drones). I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
One of my points from the OP. The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them. Drones will merely create more criminals. How many floks want to be restricted to flying their drone around the park. It wouldn't take me very long to get bored with the thing anyways. After the fad wears off only criminals are left, basically. Imagine the asset these dealies would be to large farmers and ranchers.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 11, 2018, 06:13:53 PM
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on May 11, 2018, 06:19:40 PM
OK, this is getting into science fictionland. Or is it?

No, it isn't. See "Startups Are Using Birds, Gas, and Guns to Take Down Unwanted Drones" | SciPol (http://scipol.duke.edu/content/startups-are-using-birds-gas-and-guns-take-down-unwanted-drones). I'd heard about training birds of prey, but not the other drone countermeasures described in the story.
Good find, Recusant, thanks. I have seen most of those uses and anti-drone measures mentioned elsewhere but that article is fairly comprehensive. I am thinking more on the kind of counterneasures used in the UK prison trials, confuse tge drone by barraging it with jamming signals until it goes home. As I said before the danger of knocking them out of the sky willy nilly can result in collateral damage - possibly lawsuits agsinst the "defenders" if they cause an accident, hit people or damage property.

But, short of making all drones illegal for sale or purchase without prior registration, including the tiny hand size ones that can be used for observation if not carrying much over a SIM card or some banknotes, this is a genie that will not go back in its bottle without a fight. Even then determined types will make their own, be very difficult to ban all possibly usable components. A "black industry" could well set up to supply the baddies. A 3D printer and bits would come well under £2k, possibly half that. Frame design pointers could come from photos of existing units if needed but any half decent model aircraft level enthusiast would have the mechanical and RC skills, and possibly the ability to gain any other necessary skills.
One of my points from the OP. The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them. Drones will merely create more criminals. How many floks want to be restricted to flying their drone around the park. It wouldn't take me very long to get bored with the thing anyways. After the fad wears off only criminals are left, basically. Imagine the asset these dealies would be to large farmers and ranchers.
Yeah, a lot of technology, including (anti)social media, has two edges. It's a boon that often bites back when naughty people manipulate it for antisocial purposes. Still, can't blame the hardware, it's the people. I am sure No one would agree with that!

I think drones will always be available for legit survey work and search and rescue - just hoping it is also available to sensible pro. and am. photographers, have seen some brilliant images online that would take an aircraft or balloon to get close to. I can imagine what the director of the archaeological dig I worked on would make of one! But there we had a friendly neighbour with his own helicopter.

I also would get bored with just flying one around a field with no real purpose. Would happily buy a decent one for proper survey work if the market round here was not already well catered for (and I was more mobile.)
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 11, 2018, 08:59:00 PM
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 11, 2018, 09:01:37 PM
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
Doesn't sound argumentative, just sounds like you didn't read what I wrote. I did say, "Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts."
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Old Seer on May 11, 2018, 10:01:06 PM
The only one's registration laws will work against are the one's that wouldn't misuse them.
I think that's pretty short sighted and untrue.

Say you have a drone that was just used in a crime, the criminal is running away with the drone and the cops stop him because he has a drone.

Without registration laws: the cops can't really do anything (unless he's black), because as far as they can tell, he's done nothing wrong. After all, all drones are legal and there is no illegal state for drones.

With registration laws: they can see if he has a registration for the drone, if not, then the cops have something to work with because the drone is illegal. Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts.

This is an example of one way the registration laws would affect criminals. There are actually a lot of scenarios where registration laws would help law enforcement handle drone crimes.
not to be to augmentative or negative. I did point out it would be rather silly to use an off the shelf drone for a crime. :)
Doesn't sound argumentative, just sounds like you didn't read what I wrote. I did say, "Even if the criminal made the drone from scratch using bamboo and coconuts."
Oh, you're correct. I'm not as good at speed reading as I used to be. I have no doubt that drones will be regulated, and quite severely I suspect. A drone is not a rifle of course, so if you going to commit a crime with it you have to be present to use it. A drone can carry the weapon for you and you can be a half mile away. With nothing to ID who's, where's and whats, you can get away with it.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Davin on May 11, 2018, 10:16:12 PM
A drone can carry the weapon for you and you can be a half mile away. With nothing to ID who's, where's and whats, you can get away with it.
I'm sure that like any other crime, you can get away with things so long as you don't present an easy target or escalate the crimes, but also like other crimes, if you do, you will not get away with it for long. Unless they are white collar crimes of course.

Let's take a for instance, like transporting guns over the southern border from the US from to Mexico. A group might be lucky enough to get away with it a few times, but drones are not invisible, especially not the ones big enough to carry even just a hand gun. They produce heat, they use infrared to see, both are things that can be seen by equipment that the US border patrol has. They would be able to see where the drones came from and went to with just a little bit of watching. They would be better off using the tunnel/carry/vehicle methods they are currently using than to try using drones because the drones would be easier to thwart.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on August 05, 2018, 12:05:52 PM
Well, now we have the first reported attrmpt of assasination using a dtine:

Quote
Venezuela president Nicolas Maduro survives attack from 'drone like devices' armed with explosives

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-president-nicolas-maduro-drone-attack-speech-caracas-a8477811.html

Oh, dear, had to happen but . . .

https://youtu.be/NdSnWnCiAo0
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Tank on August 07, 2018, 03:04:34 PM
It is looking like this may be a distraction hoax.
Title: Re: illegal drone use.
Post by: Dave on August 07, 2018, 04:18:02 PM
It is looking like this may be a distraction hoax.

Yeah, I heard that later. Any professional would have done their best to prevent the drone being spotted or heard. One shot of a soldier looked like he was watching or listening for a command, not looking up, seeming a bit "anticipatory".

It seems consistent with Maduro's demonstrated value set as reported so far, anything to divert attention and blame from him. One of a set with Mugabe, Erdoğan et al.

Later: Oh, and Trump.