Happy Atheist forum

Religion => Religion => Topic started by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on October 06, 2017, 11:03:34 PM

Title: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on October 06, 2017, 11:03:34 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

 We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Tank on October 06, 2017, 11:12:56 PM
So what's the weather like where you are?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on October 06, 2017, 11:26:28 PM
Hmm, only managed to find this on Atheist Republic so far. Getting a bit slack, Gnostic, or still early in this cycle of pasting all over the place?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Tank on October 06, 2017, 11:30:04 PM
I wonder what the weather is where this guy lives?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Recusant on October 06, 2017, 11:34:58 PM
This "DL" goes by a different name on other sites. I suspected it was him when he created the account, because there really isn't any such thing as a "Gnostic Christian" and he's the only person I've encountered who describes themself as such. Despite my familiarity with his views, I decided that I couldn't in good faith with the ethos of this site just reject his account out of hand.

So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on October 06, 2017, 11:50:11 PM
If "gnostic" is the mirror of "agnostic" does that not make DL "one who knows the nature of god"? Thus if this is a new schism in the monotheistic, Abrahamic, family of faiths one supposes the founder can call him or herself by a high rank. Especially if the founder is also the only member.

So, DL, as Recusant has effectively asked, what is the creed you go by?

Later: Hmm, seems that there sre "gnostic churches", one in America, that home of strange beliefs (though it originated in Englsnd), one associated with the infamous Alistair Crowley and another that has beliefs about a relic held by the Knights Templar. So, dodgy pedigrees so far!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_church
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on October 07, 2017, 12:04:56 AM
This "DL" goes by a different name on other sites. I suspected it was him when he created the account, because there really isn't any such thing as a "Gnostic Christian" and he's the only person I've encountered who describes themself as such. Despite my familiarity with his views, I decided that I couldn't in good faith with the ethos of this site just reject his account out of hand.

So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.

There are many but your own research is likely better than what I would give you to ignore.

Give a reply to the issues of the O.P. and I might reconsider.
 

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on October 07, 2017, 12:09:17 AM
If "gnostic" is the mirror of "agnostic" does that not make DL "one who knows the nature of god"? Thus if this is a new schism in the monotheistic, Abrahamic, family of faiths one supposes the founder can call him or herself by a high rank. Especially if the founder is also the only member.

So, DL, as Recusant has effectively asked, what is the creed you go by?

Later: Hmm, seems that there sre "gnostic churches", one in America, that home of strange beliefs (though it originated in Englsnd), one associated with the infamous Alistair Crowley and another that has beliefs about a relic held by the Knights Templar. So, dodgy pedigrees so far!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_church

The creed of free thought without anything supernatural.

As to the nature of God. His nature is man's nature as it looks like we invented all the God.

This follows natural law.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on October 07, 2017, 12:59:54 AM
Hmm, only managed to find this on Atheist Republic so far. Getting a bit slack, Gnostic, or still early in this cycle of pasting all over the place?
I'm curious, so I went over there.
If anyone here can't wait to know what this is about, there's pages and pages of it:  :yawn:
: show
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24627#p429946 (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24627#p429946)

I'm sorry if posting this takes away the thrill of finding out in a slow, painful way.  :-\

They talk about invisible friends, Cthulhu, Borg (Star Trek Next Generation), Jesus, cheep drugs, (I think they mean cheap), Crown Royal, Single Malt, etc, etc, etc. This is just the first page.

I don't really understand what it's about.  :headscratch:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Recusant on October 07, 2017, 01:50:18 AM
This "DL" goes by a different name on other sites. I suspected it was him when he created the account, because there really isn't any such thing as a "Gnostic Christian" and he's the only person I've encountered who describes themself as such. Despite my familiarity with his views, I decided that I couldn't in good faith with the ethos of this site just reject his account out of hand.

So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.

There are many but your own research is likely better than what I would give you to ignore.

I asked you, Gnostic Christian Bishop, because as I clearly stated in the post to which you are replying, to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as "Gnostic Christianity." This is your chance to set me straight. If you are incapable of giving an honest reply or are unwilling to do so, you will confirm my understanding.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

Great, please show me past examples of Gnostic Christians calling out Christianity and Islam for their evils.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Given the above it appears that you consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. I argue against what I consider to be harmful elements in society, but not because of an ideology as such. Rather I do so as a means of discovery and because of my personal opposition to those harmful elements. Nor do I consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. In my view, ideally it is a way of learning and on rare occasions it can be a means to persuasion.

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

For the sake of this discussion I will describe my ideology as Epicurean.


Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 07, 2017, 04:42:31 AM
Gnostic Christian Bishop (DL) posts as The Greatest I Am on the Sam Harris forum. 
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on October 07, 2017, 05:32:48 AM
Gnostic Christian Bishop (DL) posts as The Greatest I Am on the Sam Harris forum.
The Campbells New England Clam Chowder Chunky Style Conversation, is funny.  ;D
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Tank on October 07, 2017, 06:57:51 AM

NO PREACHING:  While everyone is welcome to discuss their views in a civil manner, this forum is not a podium for those that only wish to preach. This rule applies to atheists and theists alike. Preaching means stating your beliefs without providing evidence.  If directly asked what you believe you may answer but it would then become against the rules if you were to then refuse to back up your views objectively when honestly challenged.  This means that if you want to use your religious text to prove your deity, for instance, you will also need to be prepared to prove that your religious text is an objective source of evidence.


So for the third time. How's the whether where you are?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: No one on October 07, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
Be honest Bishop, aren't you really just a pawn?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: xSilverPhinx on October 07, 2017, 10:55:24 AM
Be honest Bishop, aren't you really just a pawn?

:lol:

Checkmate!
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Bad Penny II on October 07, 2017, 03:04:50 PM
Depends what it'll cost ya.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Davin on October 09, 2017, 06:42:41 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l1J9Kz79YXhiwprMY/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 10, 2017, 05:58:12 PM
Depends what it'll cost ya.

It does not cost. It pays.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Papasito Bruno on November 10, 2017, 07:03:38 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

...

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL

First off I find the terms "immoral" and "evil"  to be rather ambiguous. What is immoral to let's say a "Gnostic Christian may not be seen to someone like me, as harmful or detrimental to others and therefore is perfectly fine behavior.
 
For example you may believe sex before people are married is immoral, but to me the idea or a notion of premarital sex doesn't really exist.
 
Consenting adults can do whatever they want to with each other, regardless of their place within societies marital confounds.

With regards to evil, it is my opinion that it is extremely evil to have to spend 2 hours driving with your brother-in-law across Honduras while listening to "Christian Fucking Rock" music (It's not rock music by the way, it's just garbage)

You on the other hand my think that's the greatest music on earth next to Polish Polka, I don't know. ::)


By the way with regards to my ideology, I consider myself a "Frolicking Fornicator".
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 11, 2017, 10:06:11 PM
Father Bruno

I agree that morality is subjective.

The O.P. asks for your subjective answer.

Care to give it or are you only going to say what most people already know?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Asmodean on November 14, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?
Nah. If it leaves me well enough alone, I may as well choose not to.

Quote
Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.
Ideological fighting... Now there's an idea worth actively opposing.

Quote
We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.
You do know that the expression "for evil to thrive, all it takes is for good men to stand idly by" is bullshit though, right? Many a good man have contributed to a lot of shit through their actions - often with noble intentions, sometimes with the very intention of "opposing evil."

If you want a metaphor to better fit reality, how about "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?"

Quote
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.
So? That's how you grow a religion. Your ability to spread it through miracles and good deeds is unlikely to outlast your supply of fairy dust.

Quote
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
So? How is any sort of historical Jesus actually relevant to either religion in its modern form?

Quote
Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
If it's irrefutable, how can it be based on something as subjective as morality?

Quote
In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?
No, it does not. I am not an ideologue, and my lack of a self-identified ideology makes absolutely no demands of me.

Quote
Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.
You tell me, for frankly, I don't give a shit.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Papasito Bruno on November 14, 2017, 04:35:40 PM
Father Bruno

I agree that morality is subjective.

The O.P. asks for your subjective answer.

Care to give it or are you only going to say what most people already know?

Regards
DL


Yes I oppose all religions, and anything else that I find harmful or dangerous to not only individuals, but humanity as a whole.



Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Icarus on November 15, 2017, 12:33:48 AM


So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.

Rec, just for the hell of it, there is an example of that kind in ancient history.  Augustine was a Manichean which is pretty much linked to the Gnostic bit. Almost the same thing.   As most of us know, he became a Christian and achieved fame and saint hood  but not as a Gnostic.  Augustine was a smart dude, educated in Carthage, but he was still snookered by the ancient beliefs of the day when the earth was flat.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 03, 2017, 07:07:04 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?
Nah. If it leaves me well enough alone, I may as well choose not to.

Quote
Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.
Ideological fighting... Now there's an idea worth actively opposing.

Quote
We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.
You do know that the expression "for evil to thrive, all it takes is for good men to stand idly by" is bullshit though, right? Many a good man have contributed to a lot of shit through their actions - often with noble intentions, sometimes with the very intention of "opposing evil."

If you want a metaphor to better fit reality, how about "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?"

Quote
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.
So? That's how you grow a religion. Your ability to spread it through miracles and good deeds is unlikely to outlast your supply of fairy dust.

Quote
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
So? How is any sort of historical Jesus actually relevant to either religion in its modern form?

Quote
Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
If it's irrefutable, how can it be based on something as subjective as morality?

Quote
In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?
No, it does not. I am not an ideologue, and my lack of a self-identified ideology makes absolutely no demands of me.

Quote
Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.
You tell me, for frankly, I don't give a shit.

You just wrote a pile of it.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 03, 2017, 07:09:08 PM
Father Bruno

I agree that morality is subjective.

The O.P. asks for your subjective answer.

Care to give it or are you only going to say what most people already know?

Regards
DL


Yes I oppose all religions, and anything else that I find harmful or dangerous to not only individuals, but humanity as a whole.

Perfect.

That is also the Gnostic Christian ideology.

Careful my friend. That attitude will bring the brain deads Inquisitors against you.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Papasito Bruno on December 04, 2017, 03:18:59 AM
Father Bruno

I agree that morality is subjective.

The O.P. asks for your subjective answer.

Care to give it or are you only going to say what most people already know?

Regards
DL


Yes I oppose all religions, and anything else that I find harmful or dangerous to not only individuals, but humanity as a whole.

Perfect.

That is also the Gnostic Christian ideology.

Careful my friend. That attitude will bring the brain deads Inquisitors against you.

Regards
DL

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector.  Not only do you demand a toll, but you also take away souls by theft. Mine is not for sale, nor can you or yours take it by force...as I no longer have mortal fear.

Your path of deliverance is just as false.

Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on December 04, 2017, 06:29:27 AM
...
Careful my friend...

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector...
 

:unsure:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Asmodean on December 04, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
You just wrote a pile of it.

Regards
DL
Yeah, and..?

You asked - I answered. What you do with the answer is no problem of mine.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on December 04, 2017, 04:14:31 PM
You just wrote a pile of it.

Regards
DL
Yeah, and..?

You asked - I answered. What you do with the answer is no problem of mine.

 
:popcorn:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dragonia on December 04, 2017, 06:19:23 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

 We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
I don't have a really set ideology, I guess it would be humanism, where I don't want to do harm to anyone. So no, I feel no specific compunction to oppose "immorality" or evil, though I might do so anyway, if the occasion arose. It's a pretty broad question.
But I don't feel too bad about my vague answer, because you don't make much sense yourself.
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan. You think God should die a slow painful death. You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings, but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him. 
And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral, so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Papasito Bruno on December 05, 2017, 05:12:15 PM
...
Careful my friend...

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector...
 

:unsure:


That was a reference to the false gnostics ::) of the past, from an obscure passage from the Nag Hammadi.


What the hell is a Gnostic Christian anyway?


The Living Gnosis of the Ahgendai
What True Gnostics DO NOT Believe
 
True Gnostics should not be confused with the false Gnostics of ages past, as represented by the codices and tractates discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Neither are we representative of those Gnostics which early church fathers argued against in their efforts to establish a single church orthodoxy with its attendant ecclesiastical authority. Got it?
 
 
TRUE GNOSTICS...
 
•  do not believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. True Gnostics are not Christians.
 
•  do not accept or believe in the Bible.
 
•  do not believe in original sin.
 
•  do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
 
•  do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. For the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
 
•  do not believe in hell or final judgment. For the doctrine of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
 
•  do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
 
•  do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account.

Weird shit man. :o
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Asmodean on December 06, 2017, 02:23:53 PM
Weird shit man. :o
Weird shit? Hm! True Asmos, they don't even believe in Asmos.


...And ought to be smote for their blasphemy by The One Truestest and Terriblestestest of All True Asmos  >:(
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 06, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

 We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
I don't have a really set ideology, I guess it would be humanism, where I don't want to do harm to anyone. So no, I feel no specific compunction to oppose "immorality" or evil, though I might do so anyway, if the occasion arose. It's a pretty broad question.
But I don't feel too bad about my vague answer, because you don't make much sense yourself.
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan. You think God should die a slow painful death. You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings, but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him. 
And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral, so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.

It certainly is when you put so many assumption in my mouth that are false.

Context of answers has to be kept in mind.

Better to ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 06, 2017, 06:16:59 PM
...
Careful my friend...

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector...
 

:unsure:


That was a reference to the false gnostics ::) of the past, from an obscure passage from the Nag Hammadi.


What the hell is a Gnostic Christian anyway?


The Living Gnosis of the Ahgendai
What True Gnostics DO NOT Believe
 
True Gnostics should not be confused with the false Gnostics of ages past, as represented by the codices and tractates discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Neither are we representative of those Gnostics which early church fathers argued against in their efforts to establish a single church orthodoxy with its attendant ecclesiastical authority. Got it?
 
 
TRUE GNOSTICS...
 
•  do not believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. True Gnostics are not Christians.
 
•  do not accept or believe in the Bible.
 
•  do not believe in original sin.
 
•  do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
 
•  do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. For the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
 
•  do not believe in hell or final judgment. For the doctrine of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
 
•  do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
 
•  do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account.

Weird shit man. :o

That leads to a moral ideology that does not include idol worship of a genocidal son murdering God.

That is what weird Christian shit is.

My shit is good shit.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on December 06, 2017, 07:34:14 PM
...
My shit is good shit.

Regards
DL

Your shit is good shit?
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LastBrokenHorsefly-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Icarus on December 06, 2017, 11:27:47 PM
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dragonia on December 07, 2017, 03:30:51 AM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

...

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
....
 It's a pretty broad question.
But I don't feel too bad about my vague answer, because you don't make much sense yourself.
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan. You think God should die a slow painful death. You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings, but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him. 
And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral, so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.

It certainly is when you put so many assumption in my mouth that are false.

Context of answers has to be kept in mind.

Better to ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think.

Regards
DL
Your response confuses me even more. I wasn't trying to assume anything about you, I was simply putting the things that YOU said together, trying to make sense of them.
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
These quotes from GCB are all from this thread:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15404.0

Dragonia:
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan.
Quote
... but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

 You think God should die a slow painful death.
Quote
The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. 

You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings,
Quote
As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught.


but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him.  
(That would be the Bible)

And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral,
(Many verses:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
”Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 10:35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
Luke 14:26  “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.)

so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.
END QUOTE FROM DRAGONIA

So yeah, what's up? I believe you when you said
Quote
 I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. 
And Atheists.

Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on December 07, 2017, 04:31:23 AM
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/nXxOjZrbnbRxS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Papasito Bruno on December 07, 2017, 02:40:24 PM
I wonder if this is how Jehovah, the demiurge, or evil monster looks like?

(https://i.imgur.com/jBKQBCz.gif)


Scary, butt not too scary.




Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on December 07, 2017, 03:16:51 PM
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.

Aw, don't blame poor old "context", Icarus, it is a perfectly valid word - just 'cos people you don't like use it against you!

In its correct context "context" is a useful friend. One of my favourites in fact.

 :grin:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dragonia on December 07, 2017, 04:08:38 PM
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/nXxOjZrbnbRxS/giphy.gif)
Thanks. It was hard.
:hug:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Magdalena on December 07, 2017, 04:14:22 PM
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/nXxOjZrbnbRxS/giphy.gif)
Thanks. It was hard.
:hug:

I know it is, but totally worth it.  :snicker:
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 08, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.

Aw, don't blame poor old "context", Icarus, it is a perfectly valid word - just 'cos people you don't like use it against you!

In its correct context "context" is a useful friend. One of my favourites in fact.

 :grin:

I'm not going to surrender the word "context".
How would you know where you was without it?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 08, 2017, 06:14:27 PM
This "DL" goes by a different name on other sites. I suspected it was him when he created the account, because there really isn't any such thing as a "Gnostic Christian" and he's the only person I've encountered who describes themself as such. Despite my familiarity with his views, I decided that I couldn't in good faith with the ethos of this site just reject his account out of hand.

So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.

There are many but your own research is likely better than what I would give you to ignore.

I asked you, Gnostic Christian Bishop, because as I clearly stated in the post to which you are replying, to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as "Gnostic Christianity." This is your chance to set me straight. If you are incapable of giving an honest reply or are unwilling to do so, you will confirm my understanding.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

Great, please show me past examples of Gnostic Christians calling out Christianity and Islam for their evils.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Given the above it appears that you consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. I argue against what I consider to be harmful elements in society, but not because of an ideology as such. Rather I do so as a means of discovery and because of my personal opposition to those harmful elements. Nor do I consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. In my view, ideally it is a way of learning and on rare occasions it can be a means to persuasion.

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

For the sake of this discussion I will describe my ideology as Epicurean.

I am not going to provide links to the reality of Gnostic Christianity for you to ignore.

Do your own research or continue to think Gnostic Christianity a fiction.

I am not interested in your games. They are transparent.

-------

"Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence."

While you are trying to prove we do not and did not exist, look up the word demiurge, and if it exists, you will note that it is a derogatory name for Yahweh which non-esisting Gnostic Christians postulated was evil.

"Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?"

All over the net and a good start would be here. http://gnosis.org/library.html

Our good ideology and good news that the bible speaks of is shown in this link.

Compare that to Christianity's slave wanting ideology and let me know which one you find as better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Recusant on December 09, 2017, 06:13:37 AM
I am not going to provide links to the reality of Gnostic Christianity for you to ignore.

Do your own research or continue to think Gnostic Christianity a fiction.

If this is how a "Gnostic Christian" responds to polite requests for information, it's no wonder I've never heard of them before.

I am not interested in your games. They are transparent.

Nor am I interested in your posturing and chest-thumping. They are disagreeable.

Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence.

While you are trying to prove we do not and did not exist, look up the word demiurge, and if it exists, you will note that it is a derogatory name for Yahweh which non-esisting Gnostic Christians postulated was evil.

I note that you failed to present even one example of "Gnostic Christians" in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence. Is that because no such examples exist?

You're inferring an agenda that I am not pursuing. Proving a negative is almost always a futile endeavor. I plainly stated that I don't think there's any such thing as "Gnostic Christianity," but I asked you in several ways to provide evidence which would show my belief to be erroneous. You've declined to do so.

I read about the ancient Gnostics back when Elaine Pagels published her book The Gnostic Gospels. However, there is no historical evidence that the people who lived at Nag Hammadi called themselves "Gnostics." They were called so by Christians of that era and adjudged to be heretics. They ceased to exist well over a thousand years ago. If there is a modern group calling themselves "Christian Gnostics" who're trying to present themselves as a continuation of the ancient Gnostics, I would consider them little more credible than modern druids. Again, you're welcome to present evidence from reputable sources to help correct my understanding.

I did as you said, and this is what I found. The word "demiurge" predates what we now call Gnosticism by centuries, and literally means "public worker." According to the Oxford English Dictionary:

Quote
A name for the Maker or Creator of the world, in the Platonic Philosophy; in certain later systems, as the Gnostic, conceived as a being subordinate to the Supreme Being, and sometimes as the author of evil.

This is not evidence of the existence of modern "Gnostic Christians."

Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?

All over the net and a good start would be here. http://gnosis.org/library.html

Our good ideology and good news that the bible speaks of is shown in this link.

Compare that to Christianity's slave wanting ideology and let me know which one you find as better.

Am I to take it that you consider yourself to be a proponent of Gnosticism as found in the writings discovered at Nag Hammadi? Why not simply call yourself a Gnostic then--why "Gnostic Christian"?

What is your opinion of Elaine Pagels' writing and thinking regarding the Gnostic texts?

Is there a good reason why it took you two months to compose a reply to my post?
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on March 15, 2018, 09:01:31 PM
Just the lack of notification and my being busy.

Elaine Pagels is a fine author and scholar.

I call myself Gnostic Christian because we have always considered ourselves the left wing progressive type of Christians at least that is the way I see us.

As to our brand name, we had to change it after Christianity usurped our scriptures and put their name over what may have been our original name, that being Chrestians.

I have yet to prove that beyond a doubt and will likely never be able to because of the lack of original manuscripts. My theory on this comes from this link and other research I have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAt-PAkgqls

Regards
DL



Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Old Seer on May 14, 2018, 03:15:22 PM
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

 We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
There's a need here for you to explain "what" a Christian is and isn't. And, who decides "what" morals are and aren't. If government and religions dictate what is moral and what isn't, and they have differing ideas and knowledge what makes morals---then, nobody knows what morals are for sure. Otherwise they would all dictate the same as to what is and isn't moral. What this amounts to then, all societies must be immoral as there's no same consensus as to what the moral determinations are.

 ( your statement) "Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable<---- evaluation based on morality".
Your statement shows me that someone decided what is moral and what isn't. Who was that and how did he/she/they/it/other determine that. There is no common international list of what is moral and what isn't. Morals cannot be different from one people than another, and if so, what's immoral/moral cannot be a certainty.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on May 14, 2018, 04:22:28 PM
I reckon a "Christian" is anyone who decides to call him- or herself such. OK, there is the "annointing" of a small person who has no say in the matter - thus that act is, IMHO, invalid. Thus I see no "official" or "legal" status for calling someone a "Christian", and no similar reason why a person should not self-decide.

Like Muslims the range seems to go from hospitable, charitable, peace-luvin, good people to utter nutters with guns and death in their eyes. Buddhists are going the same way.

So, as I have said so often, don't give a damn what label a person selects or what they believe in so long as they do good things in this world. Unfortunately that does not include forcing their beliefs, beyond basic morals and ethics, on other people of any age.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Davin on May 14, 2018, 04:26:41 PM
Usually when the thread title is cut off like that, it's a sign of copy pasta.

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/if-you-think-ideology-or-religion-immoral-evil-should-you-0
Quote
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on May 14, 2018, 04:41:22 PM
Well, gotta spread the word and give everyone a chance to gnaw on you! Only fair.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Old Seer on May 14, 2018, 09:27:22 PM
I reckon a "Christian" is anyone who decides to call him- or herself such. OK, there is the "annointing" of a small person who has no say in the matter - thus that act is, IMHO, invalid. Thus I see no "official" or "legal" status for calling someone a "Christian", and no similar reason why a person should not self-decide.

Like Muslims the range seems to go from hospitable, charitable, peace-luvin, good people to utter nutters with guns and death in their eyes. Buddhists are going the same way.

So, as I have said so often, don't give a damn what label a person selects or what they believe in so long as they do good things in this world. Unfortunately that does not include forcing their beliefs, beyond basic morals and ethics, on other people of any age.
I had to scrub some of my previous post for the reason of---- in you post you say (this is the problem I keep running into my self) in your last sentence you enter- beyond basic morals and ethics<---- > The same thing I was going to post. I was going to say---if we're going to have proper morals etc---ooops. That implies I know what proper morals are. I can't say such if I don't submit the understanding for the analysis of others what proper morals are. I don't recall ever when anyone explained what morals are. We all seem to know something about morals and ethics but no one elaborates on what they are and what the result would be. I have my understanding of moral, but that might not be what others agree to. I've heard the older generation (well, older then me) say you can't legislate morals many times, but no one has said what they are.
So, who's in charge of what morals are. I've haven't heard anyone explain it/them.
The government now has "ethisists". That means that government can make ethics anything they want to. Question, where and when did the Ethisist come to a conclusion as to what is ethical. If government want's something to be ethical it's going to make it that way. Ethics then can be skewed out of existence to meet what government wants. Next question---Are floks in government etical. I would think ---not any more then anyone else and probably less. And if less, then we have ethics and morals dictated by floks who aren't ethical and/or moral. :)
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Old Seer on May 14, 2018, 09:30:44 PM
Back to the OP. If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

How much immoral and evil would I be allowed to oppose it. Dilemma, Y/N
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Dave on May 14, 2018, 10:07:07 PM
Back to the OP. If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

How much immoral and evil would I be allowed to oppose it. Dilemma, Y/N

Not going to re-read the whole thread, was there any accepted definition of what actions one should take in this opposition? Letters have been written and debates debated for a few hundred years on this sort of thing, even wars fought, with little change in the basic conflicts. At the moment mass murder seems to be the chosen method of many.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Arturo on May 14, 2018, 10:18:12 PM
I'm actually really interested in the original post as Old Seer seems to be. (Oh the slip of the tongue!)

Although I don't take the path that Old Seer has but I can see that being useful if someone was very careful on how they used that in the context that I am about to dive into.

Everyone is capable of evil. They might not think it evil but someone, somewhere, will think it to be evil. I've somewhat explained this in the other thread "Who Is God?" but in another context yet again. However I think the important part is how to get out of that evil. That is what us humans do best. Eventually bad shit happens and then we dig our way out like never before and we get to a higher plane of existence. Happens every time.

But as far as what my ideas are. I'm atheist. That's why I'm on an atheist forum. Although I do borrow things from other religions, I don't technically believe them to be true. Literally true? Who fucking knows. Metaphorically true? Most definitely.

For example, shamanism as I've seen it defined is "a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world." And while I don't agree with all of that, it can be somewhat related to the idea that when one is in an argument you try to see the point of view of the other person.

So really, I use what benefits me at the moment and let it go when it's no use to me any more. And if I ever need it again, I know where to get it. There are other practical uses of shamanism that I think the OP might be familiar with. It's when you are feeling bad, you gather up all of that energy, all of that painful hurt, anxiety, and bullshit on your mind, and then you think about something better. Something you like. And you think about it for much longer than you think about anything else. And eventually over time you begin to feel better than you would before.
Title: Re: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op
Post by: Old Seer on May 15, 2018, 02:50:37 PM
Back to the OP. If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

How much immoral and evil would I be allowed to oppose it. Dilemma, Y/N

Not going to re-read the whole thread, was there any accepted definition of what actions one should take in this opposition? Letters have been written and debates debated for a few hundred years on this sort of thing, even wars fought, with little change in the basic conflicts. At the moment mass murder seems to be the chosen method of many.
I've been pondering as to what method I would oppose an immoral and evil religion. There's the old idea of "fight fire with fire". There's two ways to go about it, the physical or the mental. If the religion in question is evil in a physical way I guess there's no choice except tit for tat. Mental (verbal debate) has a problem in that religions don't stand to be argued with and most likely become physically violent when questioned, especially when cornered. The next problem if one does nothing, they'll be knocking down your door to haul you off to the gallows. It's why I am totally non religious as I don't see any evidence that any are of great social value. I would rather live under reason then belief in something that can't be proven. So, any discussion with a religious person is likely to turn violent as I've already experienced. The Pope covers his churches behind with, It's either a science fact or it's a religious fact. Now, how does one discuss anything as such. That statement leaves no room for reason. If science dosen't fit the belief then it's a religious fact. How does one discuss a religious fact not being a viable science fact without inviting a war. What we have here is an example of the uselessness of discussing facts with a religion, if you do, you will get yelled at- at least.