Happy Atheist Forum

General => Politics => Topic started by: Dave on June 09, 2017, 08:46:15 AM

Title: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 09, 2017, 08:46:15 AM
Well, though I have often thought hanging is the appropriate punishment for our governmrnt a hung parpiament is, perhsps, not the best result at the moment.

The Ulster Democratic Unionist Party will be, mostly, on the Tory's side and that will give them a tiny majotity. But do the DUP support Brexit - which is not entirely in N. Ireland's best interests? And May has a few rebels to contend with it is reported.

Usual political crowing and denials proliferate, 99.9% of which claims are probably false
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: OldGit on June 09, 2017, 10:15:05 AM
The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 09, 2017, 12:25:43 PM
It seems that the DUP are pro-Brexit, but, no doubt, they will want to extract some heavy stuff out of the Tories in exchange for support.

But there are still Tories who are not satisfied with May's tactics it seems.

Don't you just hate these "interesting times"?
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Papasito Bruno on June 09, 2017, 01:39:21 PM
The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.

I don't have a complete understanding of all of this, so please bare in mind I'm learning as I read and try to understand the in's and out's of your latest election, but couldn't it be in Britain's favor if the Tories don't have the strong political backing that PM May wanted when she called for this latest election as you head into the Brexit negations?

Tories want complete pull out right, but wouldn't it be better to negotiate a pull out that allowed Britain to remain in the “single market” of the EU?
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 09, 2017, 02:37:48 PM
The ruling Tories now have fewer seats than before, and will have to try and make a minority government work, or form a coalition with the DUP - a small Irish party.  This is not good.

It's not just my usual partisan feelings, but a weak and wobbly government in the middle of our exit from the EU is obviously going to weaken our negotiating position.

I don't have a complete understanding of all of this, so please bare in mind I'm learning as I read and try to understand the in's and out's of your latest election, but couldn't it be in Britain's favor if the Tories don't have the strong political backing that PM May wanted when she called for this latest election as you head into the Brexit negations?

Tories want complete pull out right, but wouldn't it be better to negotiate a pull out that allowed Britain to remain in the “single market” of the EU?

Yes, it is complex and May's weakened positition will, possibly, make Brirain's negotiating position weaker. This has almost become a personal thing, the Germans seem to want to go easy on us for mutual benefit but others, notably Jean-Claude Junker, seem determined to wipe the toilet bowl with us. (I think we opposed Junker's appointment to president of the European Commission and he has never fortten or forgiven that.)

In fact I doubt that even May in a strong domestic position would have much effect on the Brussels Bullies.

If I understand it to stay in the "single market" we would need a deal like Norway has. That will still mean paying truck loads of money and letting in immigrant workers from all European states. Probably having to follow many of the beaurocratic European laws and directives as well.

I am not sure whether EU financed science, social and environmental projects will be included or terminated in either situation.

I intensely dislike the way the EU does things, it is too protective and wasteful, but I despair of Britain's chances of survival if we have to rely on the likes of Trump for it.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Sandra Craft on June 09, 2017, 07:30:57 PM

I intensely dislike the way the EU does things, it is too protective and wasteful, but I despair of Britain's chances of survival if we have to rely on the likes of Trump for it.

Yeah, I would give up any hopes there for the next 4 years at least.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Recusant on June 09, 2017, 11:52:52 PM
The DUP isn't just any 'small Irish party' though. They're pretty much the Loyalist equivalent of Sinn Fein (that is, firmly associated with a previous terrorist organisation (https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup)) and home to Creationists, climate change deniers, vocal opponents of gay rights and same-sex marriage, and anti-choice activists.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 06:04:27 AM
The DUP isn't just any 'small Irish party' though. They're pretty much the Loyalist equivalent of Sinn Fein (that is, firmly associated with a previous terrorist organisation (https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup)) and home to Creationists, climate change deniers, vocal opponents of gay rights and same-sex marriage, and anti-choice activists.

True, and with 10 seats they have a critical part to play. Pivots on what their price is for support.

Coincidentally it is on the radio exactly now that they will be demanding no more expansion of LGBT rights.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 08:18:18 AM
Guardian columnist Owen Jones has said, on Twitter and as mentioned on the BBC:

Quote
The DUP is the political wing of the 18th century, a bunch of homophobic bigots, and now they have the Tories over a barrel. 🤔

It has also been said that this will contrast with the Tories attempts recently to lose their reputation for being a Victorian reactionary party. But, they have alienated many older people, where their support base has traditionaly resided, with their policies on pensions, costing for elderly care (the so-called "Dementia Tax") etc, they have stirred the antipathy of the younger population by presiding over higher housing prices, lower wages and still flat job prospects - yet they still seem to claim they are a represenrative party working for the national good! Strong and stable?
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: OldGit on June 10, 2017, 09:37:36 AM
The Tories proposed a lot of hard necessities people didn't want to hear, whereas Labour  offered popular goodies.  The fact that the Tories were talking sense didn't persuade everybody.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 10, 2017, 11:15:37 AM
The Tories ran an awful campaign.  May more or less hid from the public only doing very staged visits to places, she refused to take part in the TV debate and came across as a weak leader.  Then the content of their message was so negative that it out people off.

The key voters this time were the ex-UKIP, a lot were expected to vote conservative this time but it looks like a greater percentage of them went to Labour.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 11:38:15 AM
The Tories proposed a lot of hard necessities people didn't want to hear, whereas Labour  offered popular goodies.  The fact that the Tories were talking sense didn't persuade everybody.
I have to agree with you there, OG, but perhaps there is a way to present things so there is a little sugar in the bitter pill.

May has been, justifiably I think, accused of tryng to be presidential - to my biased mind she sounds more Thatcheresque in her presentations and her actual voice every day. To start with I was for her but, well, we all know what power can do, turn the most reasonable and rational person into a despot. And keeping the likes of Boris the Buffoon on the staff . . . ?

There must be a balance between a hard rein on off-shore banking, exporting profit and the like and the cost of social needs. At the moment both major political parties are at opposing ends of that balance. For as long as parliament is split that way (though it seems many Tories are not 100% behind May) there will never be strong and stable government. Hard and rigid or soft and squishy when firm yet plastic are needed.

As has been said many times recently, up until the Brexit referrendum we were amongst the most stable countries in the world, growing nicely with something of a future. Now we are weak and directionless, with no definite plan for the future and possibly ridiculous expectations of what Europe owes us. All in a matter of months with May at the rudderless helm.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 01:32:55 PM
Inevitably Sinn Fein are utterly opposed to both the Tory-DUP alliance and Brexit.

The possibility if a "hard border" being re-established will both hit N. Ireland's economy badly and reduce Sinn Fein's chances of establishing a united Ireland. The Sinn Fein spokesman on rhe BBC World Service said that Brexit was the antithesis of the peace process, hinting that it nay start another round of violence.

Another Ulster spokeswoman said that in the process so dar May has trested N. Ireland "wuth contempt" and pointed out thst since mooting the alluance with the Democratic Unionist Party she has used the full title of "The Conservative and Unionist Party," something that is normally only used in very formal circumstances and documents. I think it is called, "sucking up", they have something she needs to give her just a little authority.

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 10, 2017, 04:05:16 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 04:18:46 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".

Yeah, heard that. Takes the onus of publicly sacking them off May.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 10, 2017, 04:31:35 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".

Yeah, heard that. Takes the onus of publicly sacking them off May.

I think the only thing saving May is Brexit.  The Tories know time is limited to get the negotiations all done, they don't have time to elect a new leader too.  I can't see her lasting 5-years though.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 05:51:54 PM

Also it looks like she has trouble with her advisers, many Tories want them sacked. Will she? Getting too much like a mini-Trump problem every day!

Her two key advisers have now "resigned".

Yeah, heard that. Takes the onus of publicly sacking them off May.

I think the only thing saving May is Brexit.  The Tories know time is limited to get the negotiations all done, they don't have time to elect a new leader too.  I can't see her lasting 5-years though.

Chances are that if they don't make a success out of Brexit the Tories will be out of it for the rest of this century. At the moment, unless they are keeping all the good stuff wrapped up to surpruse us, they do not seem to have the faintest idea how to achieve that success.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Claireliontamer on June 10, 2017, 05:52:25 PM
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn)

This is good.  I give you the book of Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Seems May git a bit of an ultimatum, "Sack those advisers or face a leadership challenge.

So she managed to duck out of sacking them, and thus tacitly admitting she had bern happy with their performance, whilst them "resigning" takes a little pressure off her.

My estimation of the political animal reaches new depths and my contempt new heights.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 06:11:31 PM
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn)

This is good.  I give you the book of Jeremy Corbyn.

Like it!

Only change I would make is:

Quote
And the people said, "Shit! Not another one!"
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Recusant on June 10, 2017, 07:20:28 PM
One wonders whether the Conservative (in particular May's) insistence on various 'austerity' measures is entirely aboveboard and motivated by the national interest. Behold, the 'Magic Money Tree' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-philip-may-amazon-starbucks-google-capital-group-philip-morris-a7133231.html). (For reference (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nurse-magic-money-tree-bbcqt-question-time-pay-rise-eight-years-election-latest-a7770576.html))
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 07:53:30 PM
One wonders whether the Conservative (in particular May's) insistence on various 'austerity' measures is entirely aboveboard and motivated by the national interest. Behold, the 'Magic Money Tree' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-philip-may-amazon-starbucks-google-capital-group-philip-morris-a7133231.html). (For reference (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nurse-magic-money-tree-bbcqt-question-time-pay-rise-eight-years-election-latest-a7770576.html))

In my mind, even if they start off with ideals, the higher the politicians get the more corrupt, if only indirectly, they become. This does not surprise me at all. But, of course, I am sure it is all perfectly legal.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: No one on June 10, 2017, 08:14:38 PM
(http://forums.motortrend.com/_siteconfigs/_global/images/community/bbcode/icon_quote.gif)Gloucester:
In my mind, even if they start off with ideals, the higher thebpoliticians get the more corruot, if only indirectly, they become.

Hey now, not all politicians are bad.  Some are dead.(https://forums.wincustomize.com/371247/page/817/#)
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 08:32:29 PM
(http://forums.motortrend.com/_siteconfigs/_global/images/community/bbcode/icon_quote.gif)Gloucester:
In my mind, even if they start off with ideals, the higher thebpoliticians get the more corruot, if only indirectly, they become.

Hey now, not all politicians are bad.  Some are dead.(https://forums.wincustomize.com/371247/page/817/#)

Yeah!

Corrupt was probably not a good word but the whole system stinks, if only because our representatives cannot vote for anything but whst thrir oarty wsnts. And that is not always to the good of the nation. But that many are motivated by power or money in the final anslysis I have no doubt.

Having fucked things up they refuse to stand down knowing full well they can never undo their errors because going against their ideology and their own erroneous thinking is unthinkable. And of course, despite all that the rest of they world says, they are right and everyone else wrong.

In some ways am glad I am 72 with a serious heart condition - just hoping they fon't fuck things up so well that inflation and tarrifs don't wipe out my savings before I kick the bucket.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 10, 2017, 09:55:59 PM
Hasn'-t even hit the net yet but a Tory MP on the radio said rebels are demanding a change in the style of government.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: OldGit on June 11, 2017, 09:31:29 AM
I bet.  They'll be wanting May's head, but as others have said, they probably won't do it just yet. A bit less of the autocratic dictator would help her for now.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Dave on June 11, 2017, 11:41:15 AM
On a philosophical point, in reflection, my use of "corrupt" was valid. It is often used now to mean taking action for gains of a pecuniary or authorative nature. But ideals that are perverted (another word now saddled with a specific context) into subservience to an ideology could certainly also be corrupted. Calling a politician "corrupt" is a little more acceptable than calling him or her "perverted" these days!

We are losing nuances of language, narrowing context to fit sound-bites and media-speak.
Title: Re: UK election
Post by: Arturo on June 11, 2017, 12:45:45 PM
Quote
We are losing nuances of language, narrowing context to fit sound-bites and media-speak.

Welcome to America