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General => Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull => Topic started by: manga on April 26, 2017, 11:31:07 PM

Title: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 26, 2017, 11:31:07 PM
Dr Long has the largest database of 1600 NDEs, and he claims that all of the OBEs he has tested yield 97.5% accuracy. One example is a man who had cardiac arrest, was able to see a nurse clean his mouth with specifically a pink cloth, he was able to identify which doctor out of 3 was shining a light in his eyes, and he saw a nervous looking woman staring from behind curtains at the procedure. He was able to identify the woman was blonde, and that was all true. Dr. Long also states that only 1 in 1000 report any awareness during anesthesia. How then, did he have 20 out of 200 cases where people under anesthesia were able to have OBEs? Dr. Penny Sartori, another researcher and medical doctor, says that she has had cases of hallucinations which are fragmented, and they are confusing, while NDErs and OBErs have clearer than normal perceptions and visions. According to Dr. Long, 76% of experiencers claimed that they had more vivid visions than real life.
Does this prove the afterlife?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Arturo on April 26, 2017, 11:34:55 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Poiy9.gif)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2017, 12:05:48 AM
Seriously? :eyebrow:

:eyeroll:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: joeactor on April 27, 2017, 12:11:31 AM

Does this prove the afterlife?

Yes. It is definitive proof. No need to post anything else. Ever. Again.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 27, 2017, 12:32:05 AM
manga...



(https://media.giphy.com/media/vmia1LpwoLe48/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 27, 2017, 02:30:42 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/MUZAsmD.jpg)

But seriously, if the idea of the supernatural makes you happy, you go ahead with it.  I just want you to be happy.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 27, 2017, 02:35:17 AM

Truly something we can debate.

Pro (Archies Argument)
Put a sock on each foot first then the shoes.

Con (Meatheads Argument)
Take care of one foot at a time, so sock and shoe on one foot, followed by sock and shoe on the other foot.

I gotta go with the Meathead here, his argument about if there is a fire and it is raining is really a valid one.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2017, 03:14:46 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/MUZAsmD.jpg)

I just love this!
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2017, 03:20:00 AM

Truly something we can debate.

Pro (Archies Argument)
Put a sock on each foot first then the shoes.

Con (Meatheads Argument)
Take care of one foot at a time, so sock and shoe on one foot, followed by sock and shoe on the other foot.

I gotta go with the Meathead here, his argument about if there is a fire and it is raining is really a valid one.

Discuss.

I'm team sock and a sock and then shoe and a shoe. There isn't much to discuss, it's just the way the FSM wills it.

Besides, if it's chilly (like it is right now) then putting on a sock and then a sock followed by a shoe and a shoe will lessen the unpleasant feeling. If it's hot...well then tough!
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2017, 03:27:58 AM
Manga, everybody knows that the only way you're going to convince an atheist that there is an afterlife is if there is the promise of decent spiritual shampoo.

You see, we believe that being well-groomed is indicative of the FSM's favour in the afterlife. Clean hair means purity, and purity begets a can of sauce spilt onto one's head. It is the highest honour. It is known.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 04:01:27 AM
to everyone on here, I fear afterlife, and I hope it is not true, so I am asking in the hopes that I will no longer believe it
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 27, 2017, 04:04:33 AM
to everyone on here, I fear afterlife, and I hope it is not true, so I am asking in the hopes that I will no longer believe it

Why not join our book club then?  The book we're reading for May should be particularly useful for this.  Tom62 even provided a link for a free copy: The Demon-Haunted World (http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/The%20Demon-Haunted%20World.pdf).
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 05:48:30 AM
how can I join the book club?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Tank on April 27, 2017, 06:49:28 AM
how can I join the book club?
You're in it. All HAF members are in it by default.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Arturo on April 27, 2017, 07:21:23 AM
I don't even know how to read and I'm in it! I'm not even typing this, I dictate my thoughts to a secretary and then  I ride air force one into the sun.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: OldGit on April 27, 2017, 09:45:46 AM
Fernanda is right, what we need here is shampoo. My choice would be New, Improved Biosquelch - now with oil of dandelion.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 27, 2017, 11:59:04 AM
how can I join the book club?
You're in it. All HAF members are in it by default.

Yep, joining is just a matter of reading the book and then joining in the discussion afterwards.  All posts about the book club are in the Media section. 
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 27, 2017, 02:01:12 PM
to everyone on here, I fear afterlife, and I hope it is not true, so I am asking in the hopes that I will no longer believe it

Why do you fear an afterlife manga?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Dragonia on April 27, 2017, 03:02:07 PM
Dear Manga, I earnestly wish to know where you're coming from better. Did you grow up in a protestant church? What has caused you to start questioning things like the afterlife? I really want to know about how old you are, because I feel like that might make a difference in how I put things to you. Do your friends and family know what you're going through? See, I know I'm not the only one who is very curious about your back story, which is why I will ask you again, in my nicest, most entreating voice, to pretty please go over to the Introductions section and take a few minutes to tell us a little bit about you. We really do want to know.  :poke:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Davin on April 27, 2017, 04:00:18 PM
Dr Long has the largest database of 1600 NDEs, and he claims that all of the OBEs he has tested yield 97.5% accuracy. One example is a man who had cardiac arrest, was able to see a nurse clean his mouth with specifically a pink cloth, he was able to identify which doctor out of 3 was shining a light in his eyes, and he saw a nervous looking woman staring from behind curtains at the procedure. He was able to identify the woman was blonde, and that was all true. Dr. Long also states that only 1 in 1000 report any awareness during anesthesia. How then, did he have 20 out of 200 cases where people under anesthesia were able to have OBEs? Dr. Penny Sartori, another researcher and medical doctor, says that she has had cases of hallucinations which are fragmented, and they are confusing, while NDErs and OBErs have clearer than normal perceptions and visions. According to Dr. Long, 76% of experiencers claimed that they had more vivid visions than real life.
Like with all other dishonest charlatans, you have to focus not just on the hits, but the misses. In most cases, when you read through the NDEs, you'll see them talk about hundreds of things... then get a few things right. You'll see dishonest people like Long go to great lengths to talk about the "hits" and never mention the "misses" even though there are far more misses than hits.

Quote from: manga
Does this prove the afterlife?

No. Not even close.

There was a study done where researchers put images on the tops of shelves in ORs and then interviewed survivors to see if any of them could tell them what images they saw.

Given that the images were fairly unique, I would have been impressed if even just one person were to get it right.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/
Quote
However, apparently there were no cases of cardiac arrest patients who were able to see, remember, and report the hidden images.

So here we are, no reliable evidence for NDEs. NDEs are experienced by pilots who are no where near death. When you read even the best NDE interviews there are far more misses than there are hits. And yet, you are stuck on this.

You need to be more skeptical.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 09:25:52 PM
Dr Long has the largest database of 1600 NDEs, and he claims that all of the OBEs he has tested yield 97.5% accuracy. One example is a man who had cardiac arrest, was able to see a nurse clean his mouth with specifically a pink cloth, he was able to identify which doctor out of 3 was shining a light in his eyes, and he saw a nervous looking woman staring from behind curtains at the procedure. He was able to identify the woman was blonde, and that was all true. Dr. Long also states that only 1 in 1000 report any awareness during anesthesia. How then, did he have 20 out of 200 cases where people under anesthesia were able to have OBEs? Dr. Penny Sartori, another researcher and medical doctor, says that she has had cases of hallucinations which are fragmented, and they are confusing, while NDErs and OBErs have clearer than normal perceptions and visions. According to Dr. Long, 76% of experiencers claimed that they had more vivid visions than real life.
Like with all other dishonest charlatans, you have to focus not just on the hits, but the misses. In most cases, when you read through the NDEs, you'll see them talk about hundreds of things... then get a few things right. You'll see dishonest people like Long go to great lengths to talk about the "hits" and never mention the "misses" even though there are far more misses than hits.

Quote from: manga
Does this prove the afterlife?

No. Not even close.

There was a study done where researchers put images on the tops of shelves in ORs and then interviewed survivors to see if any of them could tell them what images they saw.

Given that the images were fairly unique, I would have been impressed if even just one person were to get it right.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/
Quote
However, apparently there were no cases of cardiac arrest patients who were able to see, remember, and report the hidden images.

So here we are, no reliable evidence for NDEs. NDEs are experienced by pilots who are no where near death. When you read even the best NDE interviews there are far more misses than there are hits. And yet, you are stuck on this.

You need to be more skeptical.

Those are good points, but do you think it is possible that even though Long says that during anesthesia only 1 in 1000 are aware that he could be wrong? I mean, could it even be that these patients can hear things, and then their brain in an OBE fills in the gaps? I know that G force pilots can have OBEs when their blood to the brain is lacking. Do you think that even if these reports were to be accurate that there would be a natural explanation?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 27, 2017, 09:37:35 PM
to everyone on here, I fear afterlife, and I hope it is not true, so I am asking in the hopes that I will no longer believe it

Why do you fear an afterlife manga?

You understand there are folks here who question not only your sincerity, but your motives based on what you have posted and how you have replied to some of our questions and/or responses.

Have you seen or read the following thread posted in the introductory section which was addressed to you, and if so what are your thoughts?

Hello Manga (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15057.0)


Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Davin on April 27, 2017, 09:42:15 PM
Those are good points, but do you think it is possible that even though Long says that during anesthesia only 1 in 1000 are aware that he could be wrong?
I don't understand what this means or how it is relevant.

Quote from: manga
I mean, could it even be that these patients can hear things, and then their brain in an OBE fills in the gaps?
It's very likely that these patients have seen operating rooms of all kinds. When they are told they've been through surgery, they reference those memories (from TV shows, movies, and anywhere else), since they have none of their own. For some people, those act like their actual memories because the brain wants to tie everything together to make sense. These are things that we know the brain does, it does not require that they actually remember anything from the time when their brains were inactive, and nothing reliably points to OBEs being anything more than that.

Quote from: manga
I know that G force pilots can have OBEs when their blood to the brain is lacking. Do you think that even if these reports were to be accurate that there would be a natural explanation?
I don't understand the question. Nothing points specifically to OBEs being actual out of body experiences, any attempts to validate them (like placing a picture on a shelf in easy view of a floating spirit and seeing if any OBE experiencers saw it), have failed.

I think that it would first have to be demonstrated that OBEs are a real thing first. Once that is established, then we can look to see what is really going on.

I'm not saying that these people are not experiencing something, but when my friend was tripping on acid, I didn't trust that the moon was actually in the back of his head and "like my head is twenty feet deep and it's just sitting back there" any more than I trust these stories are accurate representations of reality.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 09:47:29 PM
Dear Manga, I earnestly wish to know where you're coming from better. Did you grow up in a protestant church? What has caused you to start questioning things like the afterlife? I really want to know about how old you are, because I feel like that might make a difference in how I put things to you. Do your friends and family know what you're going through? See, I know I'm not the only one who is very curious about your back story, which is why I will ask you again, in my nicest, most entreating voice, to pretty please go over to the Introductions section and take a few minutes to tell us a little bit about you. We really do want to know.  :poke:

Ok, I'm 15, my family is originally from Ukraine, but of Turkish origin. I think they moved from Turkey to Ukraine many generations ago, so they practice Christian faith now. I was brought up in North America, so I attended a Catholic school. I remember I totally believed in God, and Catholicism. I used to pray every night, and I used to go to Church every so often. In my eyes, God created the earth, the first people were Adam and Eve, if a person is good during their lives, he or she goes to heaven. If they are bad, they go to hell. I remember I used to fear hell, as any typical Catholic practicing Christian would. I think all throughout elementary school, I didn't give much thought into it. In my first year of high school (last year), I went to a science museum with a school class. I had learned about the concept of evolution, but had barely considered it. At the museum, we looked at the evolution of a sloth, and other animals. Then, we were told about the Earth being billions of years old, and how the first life likely appeared on earth, based on current science. I thought to myself, "wow, this makes a whole lot more sense than that idea that two people randomly ended up here, and so on". I remember, from that, I already realized that the bible had issues. I thought to myself, "If I can't trust the whole bible, why would I trust any of it?". At that point, I kind of didn't believe that there was a creator anymore. However, I was somewhat nervous to acknowledge this. I had a few unknowns still that I could not explain. I thought that the majority of evidence for religion was lacking, and being maybe a little rebellious at that age, I decided to try atheism. I would say I was 80% there, and I kind of just pushed the last 20%. At first I was completely scared, as I still felt I was being watched, and that I may be in trouble, but I thought, "those are just my fears", so I kind of ignored them. One day not too long ago, a religious friend sent me a video of Howard Storm, the atheist who apparently died, saw hell, was tortured, and then when he came back he became a minister, as Jesus told him to do so. This scared me. I didn't even know about NDEs. I thought that there was no evidence of afterlife, so I pretty much rejected it. Suddenly, this seemed like it could be true. I became religious again and prayed for forgiveness. That totally scared the living daylights out of me. However, I researched the topic more, and found many explanations for NDEs, including G force pilots having OBEs when they lose blood supply to the brain, and some have pretty realistic hallucinations. However, then, with further reading, I found Dr. Long's work, which claims all these amazing statistics, and now I slightly fear again that Howard Storm, as well as Ian Mccormack, Don Brubaker, and other former atheists who claim to see hell actually saw it. The part of NDEs that I find unexplainable is that so many people claim to see things so clearly and that everything feels "more real" than real life. There are reports of blind NDErs, and reports of people going to places far away from their accidents, and verifying what took place. One man was able to visit his next door neighbour, who had a crying baby. He claims he could talk to the baby, and found the baby had a broken arm. When he woke up, he told his neighbours the news, and it was in fact true. Other people have been able to retell exactly what doctors did and said. Penny Sartori did a test where she asked patients who were totally out during their close brushes with death to try and guess what happened during their operations, and she claims they all got everything completely wrong, yet these NDErs tend to get so many things right. There are even cases of people healing after these NDEs. There seems to be some scientific explanation, but I feel that there are still very many grey areas here, and I do not know if these NDEs and OBEs can be dismissed just like that. I guess I would take comfort in knowing these are fake, because there are quite a few where atheists and Christians who do not go to Church end up in hell, and I really fear that. I would be so happy if I knew for a fact that there was no life after death, then I could enjoy my life more again.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 09:48:50 PM
to everyone on here, I fear afterlife, and I hope it is not true, so I am asking in the hopes that I will no longer believe it

Why do you fear an afterlife manga?

You understand there are folks here who question not only your sincerity, but your motives based on what you have posted and how you have replied to some of our questions and/or responses.

Have you seen or read the following thread posted in the introductory section which was addressed to you, and if so what are your thoughts?

Hello Manga (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15057.0)

I was not aware of that, I just posted something on this forum about my background, and I will post it in your section
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: solidsquid on April 27, 2017, 10:24:41 PM

Does this prove the afterlife?

Yes. It is definitive proof. No need to post anything else. Ever. Again.

I agree. Definitive proof. I'm convinced, case close. No need to talk about it anymore.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 27, 2017, 10:30:25 PM

Does this prove the afterlife?

Yes. It is definitive proof. No need to post anything else. Ever. Again.

I agree. Definitive proof. I'm convinced, case close. No need to talk about it anymore.

 :snicker:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 27, 2017, 10:42:29 PM

Ok, I'm 15,
...
Wow! 15? Really? You're 15 years old!?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 10:58:43 PM

Ok, I'm 15,
...
Wow! 15? Really? You're 15 years old!?

yes
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 27, 2017, 11:23:10 PM

Ok, I'm 15,
...
Wow! 15? Really? You're 15 years old!?

yes

(http://i.imgur.com/okp66FD.gif)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 27, 2017, 11:44:09 PM

Ok, I'm 15,
...
Wow! 15? Really? You're 15 years old!?

yes

(http://i.imgur.com/okp66FD.gif)

ok, that doesn't change anything
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 27, 2017, 11:53:47 PM

Ok, I'm 15,
...
Wow! 15? Really? You're 15 years old!?

yes

(http://i.imgur.com/okp66FD.gif)

ok, that doesn't change anything
In my world it does.

The reason I don't believe you is because I have a son one year younger than you. If there's one thing I've learned is that expression comes with age. Your vocabulary, your grammar, your ideas are not those of a 14 or 15-year-old boy.

~That's all.
I could be wrong, but, I doubt it.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Dragonia on April 28, 2017, 12:55:26 PM
Ha, I have a 15 year old son, and he's nowhere close to expressing himself like Manga! However, I have known some deep thinkers that could easily have carried on conversations like this at 15. What convinces me a bit more of Manga's age is the fact that he's stuck on something and it feels like he just wants to argue sometimes, despite the fact that he's been given good, reasonable, well-thought-out responses many times. That's why I thought he was probably young before I even knew his age. Because that's totally a 15 year old thing.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 28, 2017, 01:57:23 PM
Mags you could be wrong, what if Manga is a 15-year-old girl?  Anyway it wouldn't be the first time you were wrong. Remember the trouble you had opening a juice container?


(http://i.imgur.com/0nLKHcL.jpg)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Dragonia on April 28, 2017, 02:08:00 PM
^^^HAHA! That picture actually made me laugh out loud! :clapping:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 28, 2017, 07:30:08 PM
Ha, I have a 15 year old son, and he's nowhere close to expressing himself like Manga!
...
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/thank_you_one_person_stephen_colbert.gif)
I agree with you.

Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Magdalena on April 28, 2017, 07:32:23 PM
Mags you could be wrong, what if Manga is a 15-year-old girl?  Anyway it wouldn't be the first time you were wrong. Remember the trouble you had opening a juice container?


(http://i.imgur.com/0nLKHcL.jpg)
Yes, I remember that time.  >:( Butt, what about all the times I have been right?  :smug:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Arturo on April 28, 2017, 09:31:31 PM
Maybe Manga is a she?
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: manga on April 29, 2017, 01:41:06 AM
I'm going to reveal my gender in a few hours. For now everyone can keep guessing :)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Recusant on May 04, 2017, 10:40:51 PM
Let's bring some science into this (since it is posted on the Science board, after all) with a fine comic strip from The Oatmeal:

"Believe" (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on May 04, 2017, 10:59:35 PM
Let's bring some science into this (since it is posted on the Science board, after all) with a fine comic strip from The Oatmeal:

"Believe" (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)

I liked that Recusant, very much...thanks for posting.
 :postoday:
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Recusant on May 04, 2017, 11:34:39 PM
 :boaterhat: Cheers.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Dragonia on May 04, 2017, 11:49:01 PM
Let's bring some science into this (since it is posted on the Science board, after all) with a fine comic strip from The Oatmeal:

"Believe" (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)
I liked that too! It's a fun, interesting way to present ideas. 
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 05, 2017, 12:02:51 AM
Let's bring some science into this (since it is posted on the Science board, after all) with a fine comic strip from The Oatmeal:

"Believe" (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)

Love that!  A teacher friend of mine has been using it in her classes.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: Dave on May 05, 2017, 05:28:06 AM
I once had a friend who, if I challenged her "old wives tale" beliefs, would call me "stupid". When she disagreed with mine she could rarely answer my, "Why do you say that...?"

She hated to be proved wrong. As in "microwaves heat from the inside out". Zapping a very frozen ice-cream slab proved that.

She would probably not have even understood the logic of that, Recusant.
Title: Re: Dr. Jeffrey Long's two cents on consciousness surviving death:
Post by: xSilverPhinx on May 06, 2017, 02:55:42 AM
Let's bring some science into this (since it is posted on the Science board, after all) with a fine comic strip from The Oatmeal:

"Believe" (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)

:golfclap: