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General => Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull => Topic started by: manga on April 14, 2017, 01:25:52 AM

Title: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: manga on April 14, 2017, 01:25:52 AM
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: solidsquid on April 14, 2017, 01:52:44 AM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: manga on April 14, 2017, 01:58:03 AM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: solidsquid on April 14, 2017, 02:10:16 AM
The problem you'll run into with this kind of stuff, as with lots of other "evidence" is that is relies primarily upon subjective experience through the terrible filter of post-hoc subjective analysis and recall. 

You mention kids and their NDE experiences.  It reminds me of the 1980s when an explosion of horrible stories relating to child abuse by children at the hands of "Satanic cults" during strange rituals.  Parents were arrested and some even charged and put in jail.  It was all fabrication owing largely to false memories and confabulation elicited through the actions of therapists, police detectives, relatives, and others.  None of it ever happened.

If you have some time read a bit about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse)
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 14, 2017, 02:18:23 AM
As I've written elsewhere, I can't be bothered with this stuff until real scientists take an interest in it (and that doesn't include a pediatrician who's been convicted of waterboarding a child as part of his NDE experiments), but I can suggest some reading:

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan (thanks, solidsquid, for reminding me of this one)

Sleeping with Extra-Terrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and Perils of Piety, by Wendy Kaminer

Then there's this:  rationalwiki: NDEs (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Near-death_experience)
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 14, 2017, 02:20:56 AM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.

You are aware there's no requirement not to believe in a soul, right?  There are atheists who believe in souls, afterlives and/or the supernatural, just not gods.  I don't get it myself, and it's not commonplace for atheists, but it it known.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Magdalena on April 14, 2017, 04:02:05 AM
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\

Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dragonia on April 14, 2017, 01:10:27 PM
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
Manga, there's so much I would love to talk about with you. First,  most 4 year olds who have NDEs don't in fact "know they are about to die". Because they are 4. But that doesn't matter at all, because there are good explanations as to the physiology of NDEs. And yes, it has to do with what a person's brain and body are doing at the time.
Second, from what I've read of your posts, I get the feeling that you don't understand (indeed nobody has a full understanding) how powerful our brains are, and how much credit we should give our mind/body connection. I'm not talking anything spiritual here, I'm just talking the science of how our brains work. (Most of us....) I think humanity is still at the beginning of understanding our inner workings of brain activity, and it's a fun, fascinating subject! But give a person's brain credit for these experiences, not their "soul". Because.......
Third, look around for stories of NDEs from other countries, cultures and belief systems. It may be eye opening for you. There are similarities, but you will see that others' experiences vary, according to their culture and their Gods. Does this mean that all religions are true? Nope. It means that people, young and old, are influenced, even in death, by what they believe.
And finally, may I posit that you, reading stuff on the crazy Internet, will not be able to prove a soul exists. It's an interesting topic, but really, it shouldn't be a deal breaker for you either way. Believe in souls if you want! There's truly no way at this point to prove or disprove the existence of souls. And I feel like this question is driving you crazy.
I encourage you to look to things that are relevant to living and discerning whether God is real. Look at logic, look at archaeology, listen to smart people, like Matt Dillahunty or Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. Read stuff like Why Wont God Heal Amputees (a weird name, but excellent ideas, questions and philosophy on the question of Gods). There is a world of information out there for you to find that actually matters to this God question.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: Tank on April 14, 2017, 01:22:46 PM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
How does the visual cortex behave as it stops working?
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Tank on April 14, 2017, 01:29:20 PM
The problem you'll run into with this kind of stuff, as with lots of other "evidence" is that is relies primarily upon subjective experience through the terrible filter of post-hoc subjective analysis and recall. 

You mention kids and their NDE experiences.  It reminds me of the 1980s when an explosion of horrible stories relating to child abuse by children at the hands of "Satanic cults" during strange rituals.  Parents were arrested and some even charged and put in jail.  It was all fabrication owing largely to false memories and confabulation elicited through the actions of therapists, police detectives, relatives, and others.  None of it ever happened.

If you have some time read a bit about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse)
This.

 Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Occam's razor is your friend when it comes to deciding which choice is probably the right one.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: Davin on April 14, 2017, 03:33:52 PM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
You should probably hear about NDEs being experienced by people who are not near death. Pilots experiencing extreme gravity for instance.

Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 14, 2017, 06:51:12 PM
I don't see what knowledge of ones own death has to do with anything. Unless your secular parents have managed to keep you completely under a rock since birth, odds are you're very well aware of the dominant religious ideology in your area by 4.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2017, 07:23:42 PM
I don't see what knowledge of ones own death has to do with anything. Unless your secular parents have managed to keep you completely under a rock since birth, odds are you're very well aware of the dominant religious ideology in your area by 4.

That might work for some countries. In England, at least, religious matters do not play a large part in daily life or peoples thoughts. When I was a kid (1944 >) Sunday schools were often convenient places to get rid of the kids for a couple of hours and schools had RE that was biased towards xtianity, but most parents only went to church for weddings, baptisms and funerals. Outside of those occasions most mentions of god were "blasphemous".

It has not changed much that I can see. But, with schools here becoming "accademies", often with skme kind of religious affiliation, this may change.

Listening to Americans being interviewed, say after some incident, god seems to be invoked quite often. So perhaps religion is something at the front of the mind more over there than over here?
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 14, 2017, 07:34:52 PM
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\

Now that you mention him, I suddenly do.  Can't for the life of me remember any of his posts tho.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Magdalena on April 14, 2017, 10:14:38 PM
:suspicious:



Lekatt!
Yes! 
manga reminds me of Lekatt!

You guys remember him? That's all he wanted to talk about, NDE...and then he left.  :-\  I think we just ran out of things to talk about.  :-\

Now that you mention him, I suddenly do.  Can't for the life of me remember any of his posts tho.

Every post he made was about NDE. I think he wrote a book about it.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Velma on April 15, 2017, 08:04:31 AM
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
My thinking is that by the time a child is old enough to be articulate enough to describe a supposed NDE, they've absorbed enough of the prevailing culture to describe a stereotypical NDE for that culture. Here in the US, "seeing a bright light and all your dead relatives" is practically a punchline after someone has been through even something as minor as a fender bender in a parking lot.

From what I've read, knowledge of impending death is not what leads to an NDE. It s some sort of major physical event, whether accident or illness, that leads to major physical stress. We barely understand how the brain works during normal day-to-day events, much less during an event that turns out to be life-threatening. If you are looking for evidence that we have souls, brain-malfunctions are not the place to look.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Arturo on April 15, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
there are many NDE cases where a child below age 10 will have an NDE, which is exactly the same as an adult case. They will see a tunnel, a light, Jesus, Mary, some report sitting on Jesus's lap, etc. How could.a 4 year old who doesn't know he or she is about to die (let's say they drown or get hit by a.car from behind) have an OBE and see all this religious imagery? My guess would have been that they might have seen a tunnel and light as that could be a biological factor of what the brain does under stress, and maybe their parents kind of swayed them into the whole Jesus direction? These kids have interviews and can be found all over the internet. However, we are told that the kids tell the nurse right after the experience so that the kids.could not have told their parents. I know some may lie, but assuming some don't intentionally lie, what would you say about that? Dr. Morse did tests on kids who were on meds and drugs and not near death, found they didn't have the same experiences.
My thinking is that by the time a child is old enough to be articulate enough to describe a supposed NDE, they've absorbed enough of the prevailing culture to describe a stereotypical NDE for that culture. Here in the US, "seeing a bright light and all your dead relatives" is practically a punchline after someone has been through even something as minor as a fender bender in a parking lot.

From what I've read, knowledge of impending death is not what leads to an NDE. It s some sort of major physical event, whether accident or illness, that leads to major physical stress. We barely understand how the brain works during normal day-to-day events, much less during an event that turns out to be life-threatening. If you are looking for evidence that we have souls, brain-malfunctions are not the place to look.

This is the same problem that arose during a group meeting last Thursday at the community center. A few people described psychotic experiences that have had and then this other girl says that it is the devil. They respond by saying it's brain chemistry but she insists it's satan. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to offend people with my athiesm and plus I wasn't looking to start an argument. It's some issue that I think I will have to address in the near future, yet am totally unprepared for it.

However, on a somewhat unrelated note, I remember my step mother saying that when she mentally abused me, that my sadness was of God telling me I'm "wrong" but yet when I retaliated she said it's the devil. Later on she just blamed everything on me. She couldn't send a clear message of whether it was me that had the problem, was it God telling me I have a problem, or was it the devil trying to make me a problem. Really all it was, was my reaction in my head toward the way she treated me. It didn't matter what the explanation was as long as I was the one being vinilinized.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 16, 2017, 11:51:04 PM
This reminds me of the time I watched a vid of a boy recounting his NDE in which he saw a manifestation of blond blue-eyed Jesus, the image of Jesus hanging on his wall. I'm too lazy to dig up the video on Youtube.

A middle eastern blond, blue-eyed Jesus.

Think about that for a second.  ::)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/684174008460427264/_dmtG3NZ.jpg)

Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Davin on April 17, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
There is also this kid who claimed to visit heaven:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/01/15/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-going-back-to-publisher/

Quote
Referring to the injuries that continue to make it difficult for him to express himself, Alex writes, “Please forgive the brevity, but because of my limitations I have to keep this short. … I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth. Anything written by man cannot be infallible.”
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Icarus on April 20, 2017, 05:56:47 AM
A blond, blue eyed Jesus xSP?

Everyone knows that he was a caucasian, probably  Scandinavian with a visa and passport for  the holy land. Asmo's cousin perhaps.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dragonia on April 20, 2017, 01:58:56 PM
There is also this kid who claimed to visit heaven:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/01/15/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-going-back-to-publisher/

Quote
Referring to the injuries that continue to make it difficult for him to express himself, Alex writes, “Please forgive the brevity, but because of my limitations I have to keep this short. … I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth. Anything written by man cannot be infallible.”
OK, first, I think it's pretty funny that this kid's last name is Malarkey! Ha ha ha..... oh, the perfection of that. 

But what is very interesting about this story is that this boy and his mother had been trying to tell the publisher  (Lifeway) that he made it all up for attention, and none of it is true. And Lifeway has given ridiculous excuses as to why it took SO long to take action on this, but really, its all about the Benjamins . It was a bestselling book and of course they didn't want to staunch that flow, so they ignored the author and continued to allow millions of people to be misled.
Bottom line: TRUTH    MONEY
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Davin on April 20, 2017, 05:31:11 PM
I have no problem with people trying to make money, but there has to be some lines drawn about what lengths one should go to in order to obtain it. In my view, that kind of dishonesty is over the line.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dragonia on April 20, 2017, 07:10:38 PM
I also have no problem with making money. I love money, and I'm not nearly rich enough. I am even fine with shadier ways of making money, as long as people are not made into victims in the process. However, the entire Christian Book Store industry irritates the shit out of me. Maybe it's because I know there's so much dishonesty and hypocrisy in this niche.
 Maybe I'm just missing my opportunity to make a mint.  Hell, I know what the main demographic wants from their Christian bookstores, I could seriously be writing devotionals and Bible studies and designing cross jewelry to go with the book for "free".
It's just a business, no matter how "they" want to package it.
I feel like I'm rambling......
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Icarus on May 21, 2017, 05:15:04 AM
Dragonia you certainly could make money by writing Jesus books.  Your well written posts here on HAF place your ability as a writer and a thinker considerably above the tripe that occupies the shelves of Christian book stores.  I do not go to those stores but I do go to Books a Million. Having browsed a few of the Jesus books on their shelves, I am almost ashamed at the apparent popularity of books written by authors with junior high school level writer talent.   When I have been so adventurous as to thumb through one of those books, it causes me to remember the famous: Father forgive them for they know not what they do.   Or in the more modern vernacular; WTF?
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dragonia on May 22, 2017, 02:47:06 PM
Ha ha, thanks Icarus.
And yeah, WTF????? just fits better.  ;D
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Recusant on April 12, 2018, 08:56:14 PM
Altogether a sad story. I wonder if manga, following his relentless interest in this topic, has come across it.

"‘The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven’ now wants his day in court" | The Washington Post, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/%E2%80%98the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven%E2%80%99-now-wants-his-day-in-court/ar-AAvNHKq)

Quote
On Nov. 14, 2004, as 6-year-old Alex Malarkey drove home with his father Kevin in rural Ohio, a left turn nearly took his life. As Kevin turned the car it collided with another vehicle, and the boy’s skull became completely detached from his spinal cord.

But Alex did not die — and that’s the central fact behind a long-running controversy that has now led to a lawsuit.

Two months after the crash, Alex emerged from a coma as a quadriplegic. The injured boy also began telling family and friends about traveling to heaven and meeting Jesus and Satan.

In July 2010, Kevin and Alex Malarkey penned an account of the boy’s religious experience, “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven.” The book was published by Tyndale House, a publisher of Christian books. It went on to reportedly move more than 1 million copies and spent months on the New York Times bestseller’s list. The book was part of a bumper crop of similarly geared narratives — tales of near-death experiences and brushes with the Almighty published by religious imprints.

Then it all fell apart. In January 2015, Alex, now paralyzed from the neck down, admitted he had fabricated the story.

“I did not die,” he wrote in a blog post (http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/01/13/the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-recants-story-rebukes-christian-retailers/). “I did not go to Heaven. I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention.”

The admission created a firestorm within the worlds of evangelical faith and Christian publishing. The controversy was revived this week when Alex — now 20 years old and living off Social Security — filed a lawsuit against Tyndale House in Illinois’s DuPage County, where the publisher is located. The complaint alleges Kevin Malarkey was the main actor behind the fabrication.

“Kevin Malarkey … concocted a story that, during the time Alex was in a coma, he had gone to Heaven, communicated with God the Father, Jesus, angels, and the devil, and then returned,” the complaint says. “Kevin Malarkey sold the concocted story, allegedly about Alex’s life and what Alex allegedly experienced, to one of the largest Christian publishers in the country.”

[Continues . . . (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/%E2%80%98the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven%E2%80%99-now-wants-his-day-in-court/ar-AAvNHKq)]
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Davin on April 12, 2018, 09:39:02 PM
I feel sad for that kid. And I understand that it takes a lot of courage to turn back on a lie that he had kept alive for a long time.

The lie was bad, but his turning on it was a good move. It won't undo all the damage he did, but it is a good step forward.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: hermes2015 on April 13, 2018, 05:19:57 AM
So it was a lot of malarkey.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Dragonia on April 13, 2018, 12:41:11 PM
^^^ :rofl: I know, it's almost too perfect to be true!
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Tank on April 13, 2018, 01:09:35 PM
The dishonesty in some people is astounding.
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 14, 2018, 01:21:05 AM
This reminds me of the time I watched a vid of a boy recounting his NDE in which he saw a manifestation of blond blue-eyed Jesus, the image of Jesus hanging on his wall. I'm too lazy to dig up the video on Youtube.

A middle eastern blond, blue-eyed Jesus.

Think about that for a second.  ::)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/684174008460427264/_dmtG3NZ.jpg)

Boy, is this appropro:
 
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: Icarus on April 14, 2018, 02:00:47 AM
^ :mysterious: :yawn: :cauldron:
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 15, 2018, 11:12:57 PM
This reminds me of the time I watched a vid of a boy recounting his NDE in which he saw a manifestation of blond blue-eyed Jesus, the image of Jesus hanging on his wall. I'm too lazy to dig up the video on Youtube.

A middle eastern blond, blue-eyed Jesus.

Think about that for a second.  ::)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/684174008460427264/_dmtG3NZ.jpg)

Boy, is this appropro:
 

:snicker:
Title: Re: Dr. Melvin Morse finds NDEs in children to be same as adults Do u agree with me?
Post by: Old Seer on April 19, 2018, 04:02:55 PM
Just curious, why the obsession with NDEs?

to me that is the best evidence of a possible soul. If debunked, I wouldn't believe in souls.
If I can be helpful. In our study we found "Soul" in it's overall  application equates to -person. It's more of---person in connections to emotion. The idea of one dying and going to heaven would be disputed by the apostles who forward---the dead are consensus of nothing.
I also think NDE has to do with chemical or oxygen depletion.