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General => Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull => Topic started by: manga on April 08, 2017, 12:34:15 AM

Title: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 08, 2017, 12:34:15 AM

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Recusant on April 08, 2017, 12:44:24 AM
Do you find this sort of thing convincing, manga?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 08, 2017, 01:09:39 AM
Do you find this sort of thing convincing, manga?

I am not sure what to think. I do think it is weird how someone who is blind claims that they saw their body when they would have no idea what a body or a person actually looks like. I'm just surprised these patients actually went on interviews and told their stories. A blind person who was always blind cannot see in dreams, only hear. Therefore, it is possible that some of these blind nders lied, but I'm not sure why they would. I would say I don't believe it or disbelieve at this point
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Tank on April 08, 2017, 07:53:52 AM
I've had an NDE and know exactly what caused it.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 08, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
I've been ND and found every E explainable.

Even after the morphine they gave me.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 08, 2017, 04:11:31 PM
I do think it is weird how someone who is blind claims that they saw their body when they would have no idea what a body or a person actually looks like.

Any blind person with hands knows what they, and others, look like.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 08, 2017, 04:24:53 PM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 08, 2017, 04:38:25 PM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

Those are incredible pictures! I would be very happy to have any of those on my wall! Thanks for offering this, PC.

However I am slightly confused about, ". . . sighted until late childhood . . ." and, ". . . someone who has blind [sic] from birth . . ." when you seem to be describing the same person.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 08, 2017, 09:30:52 PM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 08, 2017, 09:49:20 PM

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

First one has to be 100% certain that the person is telling the truth, sad to say some people tell tales for personal agendas.

I am trying to find out if, even in the "born blind" mechanical factors - aneurisms, strokes, hydrocephaly, impacts,  etc - impinging on the nerves in the brain's visual areas can produce at least amorphous "images" in the visual cortext.

Nothing just yet matching just what I am looking for so . . . maybe not.

And close to my bed time!

But, cannot see any connection between this and a "soul". Put my money on a describable psysiological phenomena being the final answer to any NDE or similar.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dragonia on April 08, 2017, 10:29:15 PM

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/
I read this article a couple times, and I believe these people had these experiences. I mean, sighted people have these experiences, so why wouldn't a blind person? However, even a blind-from-birth person knows the general shape of themselves, of trees, etc... The thing is, we have no idea what they actually saw. They may have seen what they imagine they look like, or what they  have always imagined anything looking like. The fact that they had OBEs  doesn't cast doubt on anything for me, and in a way, it makes me happy for them that they finally got to "see" a little bit.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 08, 2017, 10:33:45 PM

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/
I read this article a couple times, and I believe these people had these experiences. I mean, sighted people have these experiences, so why wouldn't a blind person? However, even a blind-from-birth person knows the general shape of themselves, of trees, etc... The thing is, we have no idea what they actually saw. They may have seen what they imagine they look like, or what they  have always imagined anything looking like. The fact that they had OBEs  doesn't cast doubt on anything for me, and in a way, it makes me happy for them that they finally got to "see" a little bit.

Would a blind person's brain be able to come up with this though if they cannot see anything in their dreams?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: solidsquid on April 08, 2017, 10:55:06 PM
Your first problem is reading an article from a section called "Beyond Science" in the Epoch Times (a publication of politically motivated origins).  So I followed the path to the study published in the Journal of Near Death Studies from 1997.

Some information about this journal, it is published by the International Associate for Near Death Studies of which Kenneth Ring (the study's author) is a founding member. Ring was (supposedly) a psychology professor for the University of Connecticut - he is not listed in their faculty for the psychology department or any other department.

Now, the journal itself is edited by...guess who? Kenneth Ring. So, that doesn't necessarily prove anything but from an academic standpoint it does raise redflags as to the quality of what is published in that journal by the editor of the journal and founder of the publishing organization.

Anyhow, the study itself lacks any real methodology other than paraphrasing and quoting interviews with several people.  However, the desriptions of the visual content of their experiences do not necessarily indicate that what they achieved was sight in that recreation of a conception space and other sensory information is present yet the lack of visual specific characteristics is missing.  This is similar to the debate had regarding visual content of the dreams of the congenitally blind.  It becomes a problem of the ability of the blind to convey what actual sight entails, the interpretation of those receiving those descriptions and the assumptions associated with it which was described by Kerr and Domhoff (2004) and I think is quite applicable to what Ring has written.

As a quantitative guy, I dislike case studies (although I understand their place in research) such as this especially with no established parameters for anything, there was no analysis done of any kind other than superficial descriptions by the author.  What is present is hardly evidence for some supernatural phenomena especially in light of the applicable critique by Kerr and Domhoff (2004) for a similar line of argumentation. Not to mention the ridiculous conclusion of some kind of transcendental awareness as the culprit.

It must also be kept in mind that simply because someone's eyes do not work, it doesn't mean that the areas of the brain associated with vision no longer function as an EEG study by Lopes da Silva (2003) showed.

The problem with stuff like this is that you have an article from a publication which has been known to showcase pseudoscience, a journal of article of questionable academic integrity and what I would term as some biased research of which the intentionality is not discernable.

I also wonder, why such an obsessive preoccupation with near death experiences?

References:

Kerr, N. & Domhoff, G.W. (2004). Do the blind literally "see" in their dreams? A critique of a recent claim that they do. Dreaming, 14(4), 230-233.

Lopes da Silva, F.H. (2003). Visual dreams in the congenitally blind? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7(8), 328-330.

Ring, K. (1997). Near-death and Out-of-body experiences in the blind: A study of apparent eyeless vision. Journal of Near Death Studies, 18(2), 101-147.

Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 09, 2017, 12:48:36 AM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

wait so do you think this person is lying?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Velma on April 09, 2017, 01:44:52 AM
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 09, 2017, 01:55:23 AM
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Arturo on April 09, 2017, 01:56:15 AM

wait so do you think this person is lying?

Well there's no reason to believe that they are telling the truth...
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 09, 2017, 02:05:52 AM
Blind Man Paints by Touch (http://mymodernmet.com/john-bramblitt-blind-painter/)

(http://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/archive/yzK-uwXCPwJjfKrUDIjQ_johnbramblitt1.jpg)

This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

wait so do you think this person is lying?

She certainly could be, people, all of us lie everyday...on the witness stand, after they've sworn to tell the truth they'll do it regardless of the consequences.

Ordained priests do it when asked if they've sexually raped children, so did the Roman Church when asked if it protected priest and allowed them to continue molesting simply to avoid scandal.

Most people do it not only daily, but frequently. See UMass study here. (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uoma-urf061002.php)

I don't know this woman, and can't really determine a whole lot from an edited 5-10 minute video, and maybe what she is describing is what happen to her brain as it began to shut down due to lack of oxygen, and she is simply trying to not only remembering the visions or images she thought she may have seen, but interpret them and give them meaning as we all try to do when we wake up after an extremely strange or weird dream.

I was extremely sick once with a high temperature an had some really strange, and sometimes frightful dreams due to my high fever...when I was young I had recurring nightmares which would cause me to wake up screaming in total fear. Same dream, same distorted images, for years on end.

But you do realize that you don't actually "See" anything when you dream...your brain simply takes bits and pieces of stored "data" and more or less projects or transmits it into our mind. When you are asleep, and certainly when your eyes are closed there in no visual receptors, basically the visual cortex of our mind is shut off. However, in the cases of people who are blind if the "visual cortex" of the brain is artificially stimulated, perhaps by trauma, drugs or a brain starved of oxygen it's possible the brain will produce images.
Again eyes are only visual receptors, the brain of a blind person still has the capability to produce images.

That's the reason you'll never, ever see anything that is new in a dream, only familiar or old images from your past.

Again people lie all the time. Are you saying this man is telling the truth?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Magdalena on April 09, 2017, 03:59:46 AM
I'm really enjoying everyone's posts.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Velma on April 09, 2017, 06:07:34 AM
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?
It is entirely possible that something happened to she decided to call an NDE. I've seen things due to blood loss and high fever, as I mentioned elsewhere. I can easily see how her circumstances at the time could have triggered such "visions." Regardless of what happened, it doesn't add up to proof of anything.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 09, 2017, 06:26:20 AM
wait so do you think this person is lying?
Humans have an endless capacity to deceive themselves and others. She may truly believe that what she experienced was and NDE - or she may be hoping for the attention that claiming to have had an NDE might bring.

Does this mean you don't believe the testimony?
It is entirely possible that something happened to she decided to call an NDE. I've seen things due to blood loss and high fever, as I mentioned elsewhere. I can easily see how her circumstances at the time could have triggered such "visions." Regardless of what happened, it doesn't add up to proof of anything.

I think that is a rational answer, the only thing I am troubled by is the fact that she was blind since birth, meaning her brain shouldn't necessarily be able to conjure up imagery because she has never seen anything. Blind people can't see in dreams, so why would her brain suddenly allow her to see anything?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: hermes2015 on April 09, 2017, 06:33:59 AM
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 09, 2017, 07:02:10 AM
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?

Numerous studies have been done and this lady claimed she never saw anything, including dreams.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 09, 2017, 07:22:58 AM
... Blind people can't see in dreams ...

How do you know?

Numerous studies have been done and this lady claimed she never saw anything, including dreams.

That seems to be supported by what I have found so far on the Web.

As for it's relevance to so called NDEs though . . . Did wonder if the function of the visual cortext attrophied completely in the blind-from-birth, assuming that the blindness was not due to mal- or non- formation of the cortext in the first place.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 09, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
Phosphenes  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene)seem interesting:

Quote
A phosphene is a phenomenon characterized by the experience of seeing light without light actually entering the eye. The word phosphene comes from the Greek words phos (light) and phainein (to show).[1] Phosphenes that are induced by movement or sound may be associated with optic neuritis.[2][3]

Phosphenes can be directly induced by mechanical, electrical, or magnetic stimulation of the retina or visual cortex as well as by random firing of cells in the visual system. Phosphenes have also been reported by meditators[4] (commonly called nimitta), people who go for long periods without visual stimulation (also known as the prisoner's cinema), or those who are using psychedelic drugs.[5]

But do blind-from-birth people see them?

I get them if my blood pressure gets very low.

Later: have not read all of this ,Visual Cortex Activity in Early and Late Blind People (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3667661/), but a quick scan seems to indicate that some stimuli provoke action in the visual areas of the brain in both early and late blind.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 09, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
Manga, you still haven't defined what you mean by soul, what is a soul?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Recusant on April 09, 2017, 01:18:57 PM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: MariaEvri on April 09, 2017, 04:13:33 PM
I don;t know if this belongs here and if it;s mentioned before sorry
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/
a good essay on the non existence of the soul
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 09, 2017, 08:20:46 PM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 09, 2017, 08:55:37 PM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?

For similar reasons that a sighted person might?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 09, 2017, 09:26:21 PM

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?

For similar reasons that a sighted person might?

Just what I was thinking.  There's nothing that stops a blind person from being delusional, or relying more on wishful thinking than on common sense.  And certainly nothing that stops a blind person from lying.  These are common human failings.

A question: if I made a video talking about the evidence I had for a dragon living in my garage, would that count as evidence for the existence of dragons?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Icarus on April 09, 2017, 10:42:55 PM
Maria, that link is a real treasure.  I particularly liked section three, the function of the temporal lobe that causes us, or enables us, to be religious.  The text is lengthy  and is not a casual read. I suspect that most of the HAFers, and others of our ilk, will find it well worth the read.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Guardian85 on April 10, 2017, 02:51:34 AM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?
She may not be lying, merely wrong about what she thinks she experienced.
Or she is lying in order to gain something (attention, sympathy, money...).
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 10, 2017, 03:02:21 AM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?
She may not be lying, merely wrong about what she thinks she experienced.
Or she is lying in order to gain something (attention, sympathy, money...).

I understand what y'all are saying. So, then for the last time, none of you think the fact that a blind person cannot likely see in dreams makes this supernatural?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Velma on April 10, 2017, 03:50:33 AM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?
She may not be lying, merely wrong about what she thinks she experienced.
Or she is lying in order to gain something (attention, sympathy, money...).

I understand what y'all are saying. So, then for the last time, none of you think the fact that a blind person cannot likely see in dreams makes this supernatural?
No. Why would her claim to have seen something during an altered mental state be proof of anything like that?
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Arturo on April 10, 2017, 04:22:48 AM
I believe that the most unlikely thing to happen (based on my view of the evidence leading up to the event) which proved me wrong once I actually saw it, was that
Spoiler: show
Power Rangers
was fucking amazing. go goes
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Dave on April 10, 2017, 04:57:06 AM
To me, it is telling that manga has completely ignored solidsquid's excellent investigation of the background of the "Epoch Times" story. There is nothing trustworthy in the contents of the article; nothing solid that can serve as the basis of a rational discussion of the topic. This is a recurring theme in the all the related fields of "out-of-body experiences," "near-death experiences," and disembodied consciousness in general. Lacking verifiable evidence they will always remain in the realm of "what if," and while that may be entertaining in the way that a cannabis-fueled bullshit session is, no rational conclusion can be drawn.

People who want to believe in these things are grasping at the straws offered by charlatans and those who've convinced themselves that they're real. They will never be deterred by those who point out the fact that all there is supporting the belief is spurious logic based on flimsy or misrepresented evidence.

I know epoch times aren't the greatest, but there is a video of the lady telling the story, and why would a blind woman  lie about seeing things?
She may not be lying, merely wrong about what she thinks she experienced.
Or she is lying in order to gain something (attention, sympathy, money...).

I understand what y'all are saying. So, then for the last time, none of you think the fact that a blind person cannot likely see in dreams makes this supernatural?
Got that right for me, manga. There is no evidence for the supernatural, anywhere in any situation, that I can see.

This does not stop me being an avid fan of the fantasy literary/cinematic genre though. But when I close the book or turn off the video I am back in the real world.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Magdalena on April 10, 2017, 05:21:31 AM
This is a very convincing testimony of how beautiful, and/or ugly, the supernatural if it exists, could be... :shifty:
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: manga on April 10, 2017, 06:44:35 AM
thanks to everyone, I think you were all very rational, and I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Recusant on April 10, 2017, 09:36:00 AM
Manga, there are atheists who believe in ghosts and souls, OBE, NDE, and so forth. There are even people who call themselves atheist who believe in a deity or "universal spirit" (see #4 in this list (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/)). You'll note that it's a rather small percentage.

I'd surmise that atheists who believe these things are less likely to join a site like this, which is why you haven't got any takers here. When there are multiple plausible explanations for a phenomenon, choosing "it's supernatural" seems unjustified unless you really want to believe in the supernatural. It's not the first logical choice.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: hermes2015 on April 10, 2017, 10:26:14 AM
When there are multiple plausible explanations for a phenomenon, choosing "it's supernatural" seems unjustified unless you really want to believe in the supernatural. It's not the first logical choice.

I suggest you Google Occam's Razor, Manga.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 10, 2017, 09:34:30 PM
I'd surmise that atheists who believe these things are less likely to join a site like this, which is why you haven't got any takers here.

Personally, I've got too many other things of greater interest to me to spend serious time on, and I assume that if real, convincing evidence of the supernatural turned up the scientific community would be all over it.  After all, that would be the greatest breakthrough ever, and I imagine there would be something about it intriguing to every scientific discipline.  If there were anything to it, we'd be reading about it daily -- the research papers and peer reviews would be flying.

When that happens, I will change my mind about proposed evidence for the supernatural, but until that happens I will continue to regard it as wishful thinking at best.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Icarus on April 10, 2017, 11:02:23 PM
Mags, The SNL vid was a real hoot. I LMAO.   ;D
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 11, 2017, 01:12:36 AM
I'd surmise that atheists who believe these things are less likely to join a site like this, which is why you haven't got any takers here.

Personally, I've got too many other things of greater interest to me to spend serious time on, and I assume that if real, convincing evidence of the supernatural turned up the scientific community would be all over it.  After all, that would be the greatest breakthrough ever, and I imagine there would be something about it intriguing to every scientific discipline.  If there were anything to it, we'd be reading about it daily -- the research papers and peer reviews would be flying.

When that happens, I will change my mind about proposed evidence for the supernatural, but until that happens I will continue to regard it as wishful thinking at best.

Definitely this. I've definitely expertthings I have no clear explanation for, but generally I think "huh, that was weird" and that's that. There must be an explanation, and "I don't really know" seems a lot more sound than literally making shit up to explain it. If I'm really motivated I can usually find some related science.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Magdalena on April 11, 2017, 03:46:06 AM
Mags, The SNL vid was a real hoot. I LMAO.   ;D
;D
It is a real hoot!
I could watch it one thousand times, and it will make me laugh one thousand times.  :lol:
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Recusant on April 14, 2017, 06:00:13 PM
I don;t know if this belongs here and if it;s mentioned before sorry
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/
a good essay on the non existence of the soul

I've been reading through this essay, and I'd say it's not just good, it's excellent. Thank you very much, MariaEvri, for posting that link. I wonder if manga even bothered to click on it.
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: MariaEvri on April 15, 2017, 05:11:47 PM
I don;t know if this belongs here and if it;s mentioned before sorry
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/
a good essay on the non existence of the soul

I've been reading through this essay, and I'd say it's not just good, it's excellent. Thank you very much, MariaEvri, for posting that link. I wonder if manga even bothered to click on it.

Eever since I;ve discovered this gem through the greek atheists site, Ive been referencing it all over the place
Title: Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
Post by: Old Seer on July 26, 2017, 04:04:26 AM
Do you find this sort of thing convincing, manga?
From what I understand, in biblical context the term soul is the same as "person". In general use  such as --That person will definitely go to hell.  When a person dies their soul remains alive,(according to most religious thinking) and that is  what goes to hell. In common usage then soul=person. They don't explain how something that has no nerves can feel pain--but, we know they cannot be correct. One person in the book says the dead are conscious of nothing. As the saying is---no brain no pain.