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General => Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull => Topic started by: manga on April 02, 2017, 11:07:44 PM

Title: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 02, 2017, 11:07:44 PM
http://www.precious-testimonies.com/BornAgain/L-N/LaFondT.htm
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Recusant on April 02, 2017, 11:29:41 PM
 :wave hi: No.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 02, 2017, 11:30:57 PM
why, how do you think an electrocution could have possibly given someone visions of hell?
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Recusant on April 02, 2017, 11:38:53 PM
The brain is capable of really marvelous things.

On the other hand, that story is full of complete bullshit.

Quote
Interestingly…I still had a lot of electricity in me for four to five months after the electrocution. I found that out the first time I kissed my wife. We would shock each other when we touched! And it hurt! Now can you imagine - every time you reach for your wife, you were shocked again! We got so we would touch each other’s hands first at the same time to lessen the shock before kissing.

People are not Leyden jars that magically recharge themselves because they've been in contact at some point in the past with electrical current.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 03, 2017, 12:03:15 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Arturo on April 03, 2017, 12:07:04 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?

It's a lie. Everything about it is a lie.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 03, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
if you found out the guy wasn't lying, would you believe it, or would you still think his brain caused the experience?
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: solidsquid on April 03, 2017, 01:27:16 AM
Points to consider:

1. This is a random story written by someone on the internet by some guy claiming to be a reverend.

2. His own personal history tells a story of being raised in a Catholic household and went to Catholic school - conditioning from an early age and the establishment of pertinent schematic organization of sensory information.

3. Admitted history of alcoholism and drug use including various psychadelics.

4. Admitted problematic behavior associate with the substance use - a disorder and possibly linked to the traits for addiction.

5. Suffered trauma with neurological issues including memory loss - a field ripe for the formation of false memories.

6. There's a paypal donation button at the bottom of the page asking for donations. May simply be an online marketing tactic for someone's ministry.

Conclusion:  All these points would, from a skeptical standpoint, raise question about such a story. There's many reasons to doubt the veracity of such a sensational story.  And there is no way to verify a subjective experience such as that. If the events are in fact true as told (in the author's perspective), at least the guy is no longer choke slamming his mother from being strung out on acid.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 03, 2017, 01:34:08 AM
those are some good points, it is also possible that he was high when the experience took place, one never knows. I saw a video of him and he was crying as he told the story, so I'm guessing he believes it occurred. It could also be that others helped him to interpret it.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 03, 2017, 03:08:35 AM
I say the bastard deserves to go to hell for eating the fucking marshmallows.

I saw my very first sin committed at the age of five. It was the sin of disobedience - not honoring my mother and my father. My mother said, "I don't want you boys to eat those marshmallows. We are going to roast them over the fire in the backyard with the family tonight."  My mother caught my brother, Cliff and I, hiding behind a stump in our backyard in Farmington, Michigan, eating those marshmallows.

For all we know he took the graham crackers and chocolate for the S'mores as well...eternal damnation indeed!
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Icarus on April 03, 2017, 06:42:08 AM
 Solidsquid has described the situation neatly.  The guys head was twisted, either by drugs or by religion.....or both.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Velma on April 03, 2017, 06:54:04 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: manga on April 03, 2017, 08:49:06 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 03, 2017, 09:09:26 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?

Here it comes,  get ready and brace yourself...Argument from Coercion.

Even if you think the possibility of hell existing is less than 5 percent isn't that's enough to not take a chance with your salvation?
You must believe in God/Jesus. It's your only hope for salvation. You  are all doomed if you don't accept Jesus as our personal savior. It says so in the Bible. If you want to live forever and avoid suffering, you must accept God.

Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Guardian85 on April 03, 2017, 09:43:58 AM
Smells like a scam to me. For all the reasons mentioned by squid.
And people being electrocuted to the point of their muscles locking up are simply not able to scream. At all. Much less scream in recognizable words. Screaming requires you to have control of your muscles. Electrocuted people only scream in bad movies.

All in all, I rate this a 9.4 on the bullsit-o-meter.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: OldGit on April 03, 2017, 10:36:21 AM
Cobblers.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 03, 2017, 10:56:11 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?

I've seen things that fit the classic description of ghosts.  Until somebody comes up with convincing evidence of the supernatural, the odds I give of ghosts existing is 0.  If evidence for the supernatural ever is presented, then we can talk about it as an explanation for the weird things people sometimes see, but until then there are just too many convincing natural explanations for weird shit.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 03, 2017, 03:34:15 PM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

I was given a popular fever suppressant for toddlers and spent the entire night hiding from the brightly colored fish swimming in my room. They knew no physical boundaries and I could feel them when they passed through my bones. It was real and traumatic enough that I remember all of this vividly despite being a toddler at the time.

Actively being on drugs aside, certain psychedelics are stored in body tissue, like the spinal column, and can trigger flashbacks. Additionally neurological pathways form based on use (of anything - Im struggling to make my dog take left turns right now because she hates it so much she's given herself right-favored repetitive use injuries) so if someone is consistently putting themselves into a state of hallucinating it seems they would develop a tendency toward it. 
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 03, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
Cobblers.

Succinct!
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Dragonia on April 03, 2017, 10:50:30 PM
No, I do not believe this. Whoever wrote this obviously has an agenda. Perhaps more than one agenda.
First, he is brainwashed into Catholicism as a child, thus providing the foundation for much mysticism later.
Then this:
Quote
I graduated in 1968 and that summer I was introduced to marijuana. That escalated into smoking hash, PCP, (also called angel dust), THC, Mescaline, and LSD. I loved to drink beer and wine along with the drugs.
Isn't it weird that he lists THC as its own drug? I think he's trying to make himself look like a total druggie for effect. I also think it's funny that he loved to drink beer and wine with his drugs.... he's SO BAD!
I also find it highly suspect that it took his mother a week to casually mention to him that he had nearly choked her to death. Really? A Catholic mother... waiting a week to say anything. I don't buy it for a second.
Then he quit doing mescaline and LSD- To God Be The Glory!- but he still kept smoking weed for 2 years and he got dependent on speed. Ha ha ha.... ech ehrm....
Then he says immediately after being electrocuted,
Quote
At that time, I didn't know anything about the Bible. I wasn't a religious person or a Christian and didn't know any Christians.
Ummmm, Bullshit. He just said that he was raised Catholic and went to 12 years of Catholic schooling. He knew plenty.

This conversation between doctor and patient is hilarious...
Quote
  Later on in the hospital my cardiologist said to me, “Tim – I am not a Christian; do you know any?”

“No. I don’t know any personally. About the only people I hang around with are my drug friends. Why?”

He responded, “I have some Christian friends and I believe that if I told them about you being electrocuted, they would agree you should be dead. I also believe they would say you are a living miracle, as I do also believe, and that God must have a plan for your life to let you come back to life.”

He went on to say, “Tim, I understand electricity. The hospital uses electricity to bring back someone whose heart has stopped beating, but Tim, when you got electrocuted - crucifixion style through your arms and through your heart - you should be dead instead of being brought back to life. Honestly - I don’t know why you are alive.  And to think, you were standing in water. That makes it 10 times worse!”
"My drug friends"!! Seriously? Who the fuck says that? This conversation never happened, for many reasons. I ASSURE you.

Then he claims to have made another statement (to his wife) that I guarantee has never been spoken out loud:
Quote
I answered, “I got up and locked the door after you left and moments thereafter fell to the floor because of my intense back pain. I laid on the floor for nine hours in intense pain – crying - until about 15 minutes ago. I just couldn’t get up because the back pain was so bad.” 
bah ha ha ha! For real?
Ok, the rest of it isn't worth picking apart, because the basis of the story is so obviously made up. And besides, I have to go make dinner for my family. But Manga, please don't believe shit like this. It's a story. That's all. And not a very well-written story at that. You may say to yourself, but they're Christians, they wouldn't lie about stuff like this! Believe me when I tell you that they most certainly would lie, as long as they thought the story would have good results.
Little side note: I've heard stories like this numerous times growing up, especially as a teenager. And I thought it was interesting that he says he went to a Nazarene college. I was raised in a Nazarene church and am quite familiar with this storyline.... maybe it's a Nazarene thing.  :puke:
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 03, 2017, 11:54:42 PM
Quote
He went on to say, “Tim, I understand electricity. The hospital uses electricity to bring back someone whose heart has stopped beating

And then there's this:  http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/09/shocking-someone-flat-line-wont-help/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/09/shocking-someone-flat-line-wont-help/)

Basically, starting a stopped heart is Hollywood BS -- makes for a dramatic scene, can't be done in real life.  There are things that defibrillation might be able to do for someone, but starting a stopped heart isn't one of them.  So no cardiologist would make the above statement.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Recusant on April 04, 2017, 12:43:45 AM
if you found out the guy wasn't lying, would you believe it, or would you still think his brain caused the experience?

I think he lied several times while "testifying" on that web page. Even if I were to discount that and assume he believes he's telling the truth, I most certainly do think that his brain was where that experience took place--he didn't visit the afterlife and return, because he was never actually dead.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 04, 2017, 01:41:04 AM
This seems an appropriate article to leave here, a different viewpoint on Hell from a Xtian pastor: The party we'll have in Hell (http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/04/03/the-party-well-have-in-hell)
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Velma on April 04, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?
The odds of hell existing are the same as me waking up to find real Tribbles actually climbing the walls in my bedroom, zero. Visions during traumatic physical events do not count as evidence of anything except the imagination of the sufferer and how much it has been influenced by their own beliefs and preferences.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Dave on April 04, 2017, 09:58:06 AM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?
The odds of hell existing are the same as me waking up to find real Tribbles actually climbing the walls in my bedroom, zero. Visions during traumatic physical events do not count as evidence of anything except the imagination of the sufferer and how much it has been influenced by their own beliefs and preferences.
I can go with that, Velma.

Along with those cognitive nightmares suffered when I was building up for my hesrt attack was a conviction that the cupboard thst I could see from my bed was full of monsters, demons. I was terrified that it would burst open and let them out. In the morning, now awake but still fatigued from a very, very disturbed night, I was still reluctsnt to open that cupboard for a clean shirt.

I had been, effectively, an atheist since age ten but the imagery that had been part of the myths of human life was still potent to my amygdala. Luckily I still had enough rationality left to recognise the process but I can understand how some lose the ability to separate reality ftom fantasy.

Several months of this sort experience could have left some even more mentally dented than I probably am!
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Velma on April 04, 2017, 07:35:46 PM
do you think then that it is possible that he did in fact hallucinate?
All kinds of things can trigger hallucinations. Severe blood loss caused me to see giant children's toys when I was about six. When I was around 8, a very high fever caused me to see Tribbles. Pain, low blood sugar, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), dehydration, and anything else that throws some part of your body's systems out of whack can cause hallucinations. Give me a few minutes and I can throw myself into a trance state. Let me keep myself there long enough and who knows what I'll see.

Thank you Velma, I think your answer sounds very logical. I would like to ask you what you think the odds are that hell actually exists, and even if it does, that this man really saw it. Would you say less than 5%?
The odds of hell existing are the same as me waking up to find real Tribbles actually climbing the walls in my bedroom, zero. Visions during traumatic physical events do not count as evidence of anything except the imagination of the sufferer and how much it has been influenced by their own beliefs and preferences.
I can go with that, Velma.

Along with those cognitive nightmares suffered when I was building up for my hesrt attack was a conviction that the cupboard thst I could see from my bed was full of monsters, demons. I was terrified that it would burst open and let them out. In the morning, now awake but still fatigued from a very, very disturbed night, I was still reluctsnt to open that cupboard for a clean shirt.

I had been, effectively, an atheist since age ten but the imagery that had been part of the myths of human life was still potent to my amygdala. Luckily I still had enough rationality left to recognise the process but I can understand how some lose the ability to separate reality ftom fantasy.

Several months of this sort experience could have left some even more mentally dented than I probably am!
The interplay between our brains and the rest of our bodies is nowhere near fully understood. Physical or emotional pain short circuits our ability to think, being happy energizes us, extreme physical stress of any sort can cause hallucinations, amputees report "phantom" limbs, dreams can impact our waking state (even when we know that is exactly what is going on), cultural imprints can influence how a mental or physical illness is manifested, and this doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. Our physical state impacts our brain function as often as our brain function impacts our physical state. "Testimonies" of sightings of supernatural planes of existence from someone who is mentally or physically stressed carry no more weight than visions of flying elephants from a different person under the same circumstances.
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Dragonia on April 04, 2017, 10:40:26 PM
^^^Well said, Velma!
Title: Re: Hi, I wanted to know if you guys believe this experience:
Post by: Arturo on July 16, 2017, 11:47:04 PM
Deleted for damage control