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General => Politics => Topic started by: Dave on January 30, 2017, 07:22:23 AM

Title: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on January 30, 2017, 07:22:23 AM
Quote
Trump Administration Restricts News from Federal Scientists at USDA, EPA (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-administration-restricts-news-from-federal-scientists-at-usda-epa/)

Quote
Trump's Immigration Stance Stokes Fears for Science (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-s-immigration-stance-stokes-fears-for-science/)

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The Science of President Trump (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-science-of-president-trump/)

And that's just a quick skim from one source.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on January 30, 2017, 02:31:52 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/29/nations-hit-by-trump-travel-ban-have-produced-7-percent-of-muslim-terrorists-zero-fatalities/
Quote
Not a single person has died in any of the attacks perpetrated in the United States by terrorists from the seven blocked countries since 2001.

If any Trump supporters wanted to look it up, the data is out there. So if these are not countries from which terrorists who have hurt us have come from, why then didn't he ban the countries where terrorists who have hurt us came from? Well, this image might help.

(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2017/01/27/11/trump-business-immigration-bloomberg.jpg)

Quote
Migration freeze countries in red, and, in yellow, countries where Donald Trump has done business or pursued potential deals (Bloomberg)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslim-countries-donald-trump-immigration-ban-temporary-freeze-us-entry-visa-syria-libya-yemen-iran-a7549061.html
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 30, 2017, 05:18:26 PM
Yeah, 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists, who actually did damage by killing 3000 people and destroying billions of dollars of property, came from Saudi Arabia.  No ban there, of course, since Trump does business.  All the terrorist acts together against American citizens don't equal what the Saudi citizens did on 9/11. And let's not forget that attack was orchestrated by a Saudi, Mr. Bin Laden.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on January 30, 2017, 05:35:08 PM
Yeah, 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists, who actually did damage by killing 3000 people and destroying billions of dollars of property, came from Saudi Arabia.  No ban there, of course, since Trump does business.  All the terrorist acts together against American citizens don't equal what the Saudi citizens did on 9/11. And let's not forget that attack was orchestrated by a Saudi, Mr. Bin Laden.

Not that it matters his father was a Yemeni. After living a rather Western younger lifestyle, he became obsessed about how he felt that Saudi Arabia, the land of Muhammad,  was being contaminated by the West with the conivance of the royal family. Thus he was anti the royal family.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on January 30, 2017, 09:09:25 PM
I just received an email from Uber saying that the following. Or tl;dr they are putting money to fight the immigration ban because their drivers are also immigrants.

Quote
At Uber we've always believed in standing up for what's right. Today we need your help supporting drivers who may be impacted by President Trump's new immigration ban.

Drivers who are citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria or Yemen and live in the US but have left the country, will not be able to return for 90 days. This means they won't be able to earn money and support their families during this period.

It's important that as a community we do everything we can to help these drivers. Here's what Uber will do:
•      Provide 24/7 legal support for drivers who are trying to get back into the country. Our lawyers and immigration experts will be on call 24/7 to help.
•     Compensate drivers for their lost earnings. This will help them support their families and put food on the table while they are banned from the US.
•     Urge the government to reinstate the right of US residents to travel—whatever their country of origin—immediately.
•      Create a $3 million legal defense fund to help drivers with immigration and translation services.
If you are a driver or a friend or family member of someone who has been affected, please contact us here.

Uber is a community. We're here to support each other. Please help Uber to help drivers who may be affected by this unjust and wrong immigration ban.
Travis
Uber Founder & CEO
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on January 30, 2017, 10:48:00 PM
I just received an email from Uber saying that the following. Or tl;dr they are putting money to fight the immigration ban because their drivers are also immigrants.

Quote
At Uber we've always believed in standing up for what's right. Today we need your help supporting drivers who may be impacted by President Trump's new immigration ban.

Drivers who are citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria or Yemen and live in the US but have left the country, will not be able to return for 90 days. This means they won't be able to earn money and support their families during this period.

It's important that as a community we do everything we can to help these drivers. Here's what Uber will do:
•      Provide 24/7 legal support for drivers who are trying to get back into the country. Our lawyers and immigration experts will be on call 24/7 to help.
•     Compensate drivers for their lost earnings. This will help them support their families and put food on the table while they are banned from the US.
•     Urge the government to reinstate the right of US residents to travel—whatever their country of origin—immediately.
•      Create a $3 million legal defense fund to help drivers with immigration and translation services.
If you are a driver or a friend or family member of someone who has been affected, please contact us here.

Uber is a community. We're here to support each other. Please help Uber to help drivers who may be affected by this unjust and wrong immigration ban.
Travis
Uber Founder & CEO

Yeah, but they're also advertising on Breitbart and refuse to stop despite being called out on it multiple times.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on January 31, 2017, 04:52:39 AM
I just received an email from Uber saying that the following. Or tl;dr they are putting money to fight the immigration ban because their drivers are also immigrants.

Quote
...

Yeah, but they're also advertising on Breitbart and refuse to stop despite being called out on it multiple times.

I don't know details but maybe it's a good thing we have support on both sides of the fence against Trump.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on January 31, 2017, 05:17:10 PM
Donald Trump is a threat to the European Union, EU Parliament chief Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt says (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/donald-trump-eu-european-union-guy-verfhostadt-chief-negotiation-threat-to-a7553131.html)

Quote
Guy Verhofstadt made the comment at a speech in London on Monday afternoon, warning that the union was facing a three-pronged attack from outside forces.

Two of the forces were Russia's Vladimir Putin and radical Islamism, he said, which were trying to undermine the EU project. But he added: “I have just come back from US and my view is that we have a third front that is undermining the EU ... and that is Donald Trump.”
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: MadBomr101 on January 31, 2017, 08:03:51 PM
It's no longer a question of IF Trump will be impeached, it's a matter of WHEN and how much more damage will he be allowed to do before action is taken against him.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on January 31, 2017, 08:10:46 PM
It's no longer a question of IF Trump will be impeached, it's a matter of WHEN and how much more damage will he be allowed to do before action is taken against him.
:this:

He is getting heat from all sides, even Republicans.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on January 31, 2017, 11:27:10 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if these people would vote for President Dumpster Fire again.  :headshake:

"Family of Syrians Deported From Philadelphia Voted for Donald Trump" (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Assali-Family-Syria-Donald-Trump-Vote-Allentown-Immigration-Ban-Travel-Order-412238593.html)

Quote
A Pennsylvania family fighting to have their relatives return to the United States after they were detained at Philadelphia International Airport and sent back overseas under the immigration order told "NBC Nightly News" that they voted for Donald Trump.

“I understand he wants to make America safe,” Sarmad Assali said. "We're all on with this. I definitely want to be in a safe place. But people need us and we need to be there for them."

[Continues (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Assali-Family-Syria-Donald-Trump-Vote-Allentown-Immigration-Ban-Travel-Order-412238593.html)]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 01, 2017, 12:51:46 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if these people would vote for President Dumpster Fire again.  :headshake:

"Family of Syrians Deported From Philadelphia Voted for Donald Trump" (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Assali-Family-Syria-Donald-Trump-Vote-Allentown-Immigration-Ban-Travel-Order-412238593.html)

Quote
A Pennsylvania family fighting to have their relatives return to the United States after they were detained at Philadelphia International Airport and sent back overseas under the immigration order told "NBC Nightly News" that they voted for Donald Trump.

“I understand he wants to make America safe,” Sarmad Assali said. "We're all on with this. I definitely want to be in a safe place. But people need us and we need to be there for them."

[Continues (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Assali-Family-Syria-Donald-Trump-Vote-Allentown-Immigration-Ban-Travel-Order-412238593.html)]

Yeah, while I was shoveling my Aunt's driveway I was thinking if he does get impeached, he might run again. And might win again.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 01, 2017, 08:47:13 PM
It's difficult for me to feel any sympathy for that. They voted for that, and they got it.

Also, something like this sucks massively:
Quote
[...]His mother, a permanent U.S. resident, had lived in America since 1995. But when Hager got to the airport in Iraq, she was turned away, and so were two of his nephews and a niece, because of Trump’s executive order. She died the following day.

source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-hager-mother-immigration-ban_us_5891577ae4b0522c7d3e01ae?)

Plus that 5 year old...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 01, 2017, 09:21:43 PM
Davin's source leads to a nice, concise, set of problems the Dumpsrer faces - of his own making: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-trump-wont-serve-his-full-1st-term_us_588ced75e4b06364bb1e2652)

Quote
To Russia With Treason
There is far too much smoke to believe there isn’t a fire in the area of dubious dealings between Vladimir Putin and Trump’s inner circle. [...]

Quote
Business Conflict of Interest
President Trump thinks he won by not putting his business interests in a blind trust but, in [not ?] doing so, may have sowed the seeds of his downfall. [...]

Quote
His Ill-Advised War With The Media
President Trump has spent his whole life experiencing media coverage from the vantage point of being a celebrity. If People Magazine or Vanity Fair was going to print something he didn’t like he could easily bully or cajole them into backing down. He never had to worry about the harsh and brutal truth seeing the light of day. [...]

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 02, 2017, 07:28:29 PM
It's difficult for me to feel any sympathy for that. They voted for that, and they got it.

Also, something like this sucks massively:
Quote
[...]His mother, a permanent U.S. resident, had lived in America since 1995. But when Hager got to the airport in Iraq, she was turned away, and so were two of his nephews and a niece, because of Trump’s executive order. She died the following day.

source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-hager-mother-immigration-ban_us_5891577ae4b0522c7d3e01ae?)

Plus that 5 year old...
Looks like the article I linked is misleading. She did die, but the circumstances around her death are not clear nor confirmed.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 02, 2017, 08:24:17 PM
"Trump golf club must pay $5.77 million to former members: judge"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-golf-club-must-pay-dollar577-million-to-former-members-judge/ar-AAmvPku?OCID=ansmsnnews11

They didn't even call him President haha.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 02, 2017, 08:47:17 PM
"Trump golf club must pay $5.77 million to former members: judge"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-golf-club-must-pay-dollar577-million-to-former-members-judge/ar-AAmvPku?OCID=ansmsnnews11

They didn't even call him President haha.
:popcorn:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 03, 2017, 07:27:32 PM
I'm considering moving to another country. These fascist politics that only serve to help one person (Donald Fuck) will send the country into a tail spin to which China and Russia will jump on. China will be the new leading economy and Russia will be the military super power.

Of course that comes at the price of the world economy being thrown into the abyss as well where the only thing that will fix it is hard left communism.

Sent from my A3-A20 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 04, 2017, 02:54:14 AM
Ha! It seems Trump has a good amount of opposition to the travel ban. So much that a supreme court judge stopped it temporarily and visas are being reinstated!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 04, 2017, 06:58:02 AM
Listening to BBC news Trump says he is going to, "Talk tough" to world leaders.

I am inclined to interpret "tough" as "aggressive" in Trump's lexicon. Chances sre that he might still be the "most powerful man on Earth"  but only have influence over those that he can intimidate with that power.

Definition of a bully?

But he will never be able to bully that other bully, Putin.

Y'know, prayer seems more attractive every day . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on February 04, 2017, 10:22:09 AM
I'm considering moving to another country. These fascist politics that only serve to help one person (Donald Fuck) will send the country into a tail spin to which China and Russia will jump on. China will be the new leading economy and Russia will be the military super power.

Of course that comes at the price of the world economy being thrown into the abyss as well where the only thing that will fix it is hard left communism.

Sent from my A3-A20 using Tapatalk

The USA is the largest economy. However most of their goods are manufactured abroad, which is one of the reasons that people voted for Trump. In case of a trade war with China, the Americans will be the losers, because they much more dependent on the Chinese than the other way around. It is not easy to move production back to the USA and even if it can be done, the production costs will most likely be much higher than in China. I don't think that even Trump is that stupid to risk a trade war with China. Most likely Trump will scream a lot; China will make some concessions and everybody will be happy till the next elections.

Russia is modernizing their military, but they have much less money than the USA to do so. They are ranked" on the 4th place of military budget spending in the world. The USA spend approx. 9 times more on the military than Russia. With Trump in power, the budget will most likely even increase. The likelihood that Russia will become the next military super power is very slim.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 04, 2017, 10:56:47 PM
I'm considering moving to another country. These fascist politics that only serve to help one person (Donald Fuck) will send the country into a tail spin to which China and Russia will jump on. China will be the new leading economy and Russia will be the military super power.

Of course that comes at the price of the world economy being thrown into the abyss as well where the only thing that will fix it is hard left communism.

Sent from my A3-A20 using Tapatalk

The USA is the largest economy. However most of their goods are manufactured abroad, which is one of the reasons that people voted for Trump. In case of a trade war with China, the Americans will be the losers, because they much more dependent on the Chinese than the other way around. It is not easy to move production back to the USA and even if it can be done, the production costs will most likely be much higher than in China. I don't think that even Trump is that stupid to risk a trade war with China. Most likely Trump will scream a lot; China will make some concessions and everybody will be happy till the next elections.

Russia is modernizing their military, but they have much less money than the USA to do so. They are ranked" on the 4th place of military budget spending in the world. The USA spend approx. 9 times more on the military than Russia. With Trump in power, the budget will most likely even increase. The likelihood that Russia will become the next military super power is very slim.

Alright, well thanks for easing my worries.

Only thing I'm concerned is that Trump backed out of the Trans Pacific Partnership deal which people have been saying would have forced China to play by our rules instead of them setting their own. Most of our GDP is based on goods and services. I think somewhere around 85%. And almost all of that is consumed by residents. So even if he did enter a trade war, it would put anywhere from a dent in our economy, to completely destroying it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2017, 12:58:11 PM
Another hint of things to come?

Trmp described the judge who initially banned hs ban on immigrants - he desctibed him as a  "so called  judge" (http://=https://www.cnet.com/news/donald-trump-so-called-judge-twitter-immigration-order-ban-james-robart/).

Not sure but in the UK that might have made Trump liable to a contempt of court charge. OK, he did this in a tweet but that does not excuse him, he is no longer a private person, every action he carries out is a matter of public interest, an indicator of his attitude to his own authority and that of others.

Nothing easy to pin down (without more research than I want to do) but odd phrases of his seem to indicate that he feels thatthe president's authority, in some areas, should be beyond question or challenge. This is, unfortunately, true with regards to certain things - like the decision to go to war and the use of nukes. But I get the feeling that Trump would like to spread that ultimate authority further down the hierachical ladder of the law. Put himself above the judiciary. Bad enough that he gets to pick the top judges.

I doubt, with America's history of local independence, it will reach full totalitarianism, not quite full fascism or 1984ism without a lot of fight back. But the damage that could be done to America as a nation, in the worst case scenario, is frightening I feel.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 05, 2017, 02:32:08 PM
We survived the Civil War, and we survived the 60's.  We'll survive this, but it's going to be a bumpy ride. Mr. Trump is just being introduced to the Constitutional concept of "Separation of Powers".  The Supreme Court (and by extension, the federal courts under it), Congress and Executive Branch are co-equal branches of government - we have no absolute monarch.  The courts are not going to pick a fight with him by holding in contempt, but neither are they going to submit to his authoritarian rule.  So he is going to have to learn his limitations.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on February 06, 2017, 12:57:43 AM
Quote
  So he is going to have to learn his limitations.
 

 Let us hope that he is capable of getting over the Emperor or Ayatollah complex that he has exhibited rather frequently.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 06, 2017, 02:10:44 PM
The USA is the largest economy. However most of their goods are manufactured abroad, which is one of the reasons that people voted for Trump. In case of a trade war with China, the Americans will be the losers, because they much more dependent on the Chinese than the other way around. It is not easy to move production back to the USA and even if it can be done, the production costs will most likely be much higher than in China. I don't think that even Trump is that stupid to risk a trade war with China. Most likely Trump will scream a lot; China will make some concessions and everybody will be happy till the next elections.
The sad thing is, even if they do get manufacturing back into America, it won't matter when we still have this income disparity. Either they will have to pay workers less to reduce the price of the products, which will mean that no one can afford to buy them, or the price of the products will be too high for Americans to afford. If they really wanted to bring jobs back to America, then they need to restore the buying power of the middle and lower classes, then there would be so much money going around, and the economy so much safer to allow all sorts of failed enterprises, that people would just be able to make things. Any economist (even the shitty ones), know that the more money flows, the healthier an economy is, but right now, most money has stagnated at the top. And that used to be the biggest problem. Now we have a president, a congress, a house, and soon to be a Supreme Court that will be hell bent on destroying America by turning it into the Fourth Reich.

Trump may be the next Hitler, in that he will be the latest best example of the worst kind of person. Though I hope that it doesn't get that far.

I mean, maybe I'm overreacting, but the signs are not good.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 06, 2017, 03:27:45 PM

The USA is the largest economy. However most of their goods are manufactured abroad [. . . ]

Not according to this...

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/DaveGlos/Mobile%20Uploads/imrs.jpg) (http://s778.photobucket.com/user/DaveGlos/media/Mobile%20Uploads/imrs.jpg.html)

Though, in two years lots can change!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 06, 2017, 05:33:35 PM
Quote
Trump would get blocked from speaking in Commons for his 'racism and sexism', says Speaker (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/06/may-to-meet-netanyahu-ahead-of-brexit-debate-in-commons-live-updates)

Quote
However, as far as this place [the House of Commons] is concerned, I feel very strongly that our opposition to racism and to sexism and our support for equality before the law and an independent judiciary are hugely important considerations in the House of Commons.

Heard the Speaker of the House of Commons on the radio. Pretty blunt little speech!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 06, 2017, 07:11:49 PM
Someone linked me this and I found it... representative of my feelings.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on February 07, 2017, 01:54:41 AM
^ Whoooooeeeee!!! That vid is a scathing assessment of our new self styled, ill conceived, serial liar, con man, narcissist,  Emperor.

Someone please explain to me. The people who voted the Donald into power are not all meatheads. What the hell were they thinking?   
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 07, 2017, 02:17:42 AM
I distinctly remember wondering what Obama meant when he spoke of Hope and Change back in 2008. I was gearing up for a tour in Iraq so I didn't have a whole lot of time to dig into the specifics of how he actually intended to fundamentally change America. I just remember being a little skeptical because of a lack of details during his campaign.

I see Trump as a knee jerk reaction to that kind of hollow campaign rhetoric followed by meaningless executive orders combined with a fear of the "others" with a promise to make things "right". I didn't vote for Trump. I think he is a douche bag and even though I thought Obama was a decent fellow I still had the same reservations because neither of them spelled out, in any detail, how they intended to implement their great change.

The only real difference I see between the two is that Obama actually was a pretty decent diplomat. Trump may end up being a decent president but he needs to be potty trained first.

That may or may not happen. 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on February 07, 2017, 06:35:51 AM
I agree with Mr. B.  Trump better learn the ropes fast. Otherwise, Angela Merkel might take over the leadership role of the Free World (heaven forbid).
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 08, 2017, 07:33:08 PM
The letter from Correta Scott King when Sessions was getting his seat on the Federal District Court.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259988-Scott-King-1986-Letter-and-Testimony-Signed.html#document/p1

Given the recent history of voter suppression, I think this letter applies to his current potential seat.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 08, 2017, 07:43:24 PM
The letter from Correta Scott King when Sessions was getting his seat on the Federal District Court.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259988-Scott-King-1986-Letter-and-Testimony-Signed.html#document/p1

Given the recent history of voter suppression, I think this letter applies to his current potential seat.

Good find!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on February 09, 2017, 12:46:04 AM
Elizabeth Warren had her chops busted for trying to read that letter to the senate body.  Some rule of 1902 vintage that prohibited  demeaning a member of the senate......Elizabeth, the sweet little old firebrand lady will surely plot some revenge.

Sessions may, emphasize the word may, have grown up since the days when he was a practicing racist. Maybe not.  He will be confirmed as AG and we will discover later, whether he has grown beyond his former narrowly focused self.

We can not blame the Donald for such travesties as confirming Betsy DeVos for secretary of education. He is the person who nominated her but not the one or ones who confirmed the appointment. Thank the VP for that.

Ms. DeVos will enjoy the demise of the Johnson Initiative. That is the LBJ conceived rule of about 1954. The rule made it unlawful for churches or any other tax sheltered body to actively (or openly) promote a political candidate or agenda. Without that prohibition we can fully expect the religious right to make some  dangerous progress in the cases against Planned Parenthood, LGBT rights, womens' rights, and a lot more of the things that we heathens hold as important or dear..

I have long had a shit head attitude toward the tax free existence of churches. Consider, as just one example, the enormous cathedral managed and milked by Joel O'Steen and his lovely wife. Tens of thousands of people attend that church and use the public facilities like roads to get there. They almost surely flush the toilets a lot which uses water and sewage facilities, and they accumulate trash that is to be collected, and the fire department and the police department are at their service if needed. The police department is regularly needed to manage traffic to/from the enormous and frequent services. Who do you suppose pays for all those services if the building and the preacher,  and many of the other principals, all operate either tax free or with special dispensations for tax mitigations? 

I should not even be thinking about that stuff. I was a modestly successful business person who was almost always frugal. My little business managed to accumulate some cash that was not needed for the every day business operation. Guess what!  The business had to pay taxes on the accumulated saving accounts of the business every fiscal year, while the church down the street paid nothing for having accumulated excess money that was not critical to their operation.  Sheeeitttt!!!!!! 

End of rant.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 09, 2017, 01:38:20 AM
I don't hold much animosity towards churches in general, however, I do agree that they should not be automatically tax exempt just because they claim to be a church. L. Ron Hubbard created and registered a tax free haven known as Scientology simply because he could and hey? Who wants to pay taxes on donated money? I'm not certain but I don't think the separation of church and state was intended to be used as a tax shelter.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 09, 2017, 04:39:04 AM
El Presidente seems a tad pissed off that his daughter's "fashion" rags have been dropped by a major store - and seems to have allowed this to "leak" into his POTUS Twitter account.

Shape of things to come?

Ethics experts are not amused.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 09, 2017, 05:19:20 AM
Get that man some Pepto or something cause he has some serious diarrhea of the mouth.

geeze, I thought Obama had thin skin due to the way he complained about Fox but Trump's skin is so thin he literally bleeds if you look at him too hard.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 09, 2017, 09:24:38 AM
Quote
Trump's courtiers bring chaotic and capricious style to White House (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/04/trump-inner-circle-white-house-court)

It also seems that the White House's attitude to things like NATO depends entirely on which member of the administration you speak to.

Seems to be either a "Keep 'em all guessing"  policy or they all have their own songsheet, or they are all a bunch of confused bozos.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 09, 2017, 09:30:57 AM
And, on top of my last...
Quote
Donald Trump's Supreme Court nominee laments president's 'demoralising' attacks on judges (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/08/donald-trump-dismisses-travel-ban-hearing-politics-us-waits/)

Maybe he will be a straight arrow.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on February 09, 2017, 09:31:26 AM
I agree with Mr. B.  Trump better learn the ropes fast. Otherwise, Angela Merkel might take over the leadership role of the Free World (heaven forbid).
Why can't we just have Kim-John-or-whatever-his-name-spells-like Un run it? I can suck up to the boss, have me a Maybach with seats upholstered in hides taken from political dissidents, yes? A BETTER world, no? In which I has me a Maybach?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 09, 2017, 02:27:16 PM
Get that man some Pepto or something cause he has some serious diarrhea of the mouth.

geeze, I thought Obama had thin skin due to the way he complained about Fox but Trump's skin is so thin he literally bleeds if you look at him too hard.
Obama was thin skinned? That is counter to everything he had to deal with and took in stride. He was thicker skinned than any recent president I can remember all the way from Reagan.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 09, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
Get that man some Pepto or something cause he has some serious diarrhea of the mouth.

geeze, I thought Obama had thin skin due to the way he complained about Fox but Trump's skin is so thin he literally bleeds if you look at him too hard.
Obama was thin skinned? That is counter to everything he had to deal with and took in stride. He was thicker skinned than any recent president I can remember all the way from Reagan.

Personal perception is not always perfect, even in hindsight. Sometimes it helps to have something to compare. I wasn't very politically aware before 2008 so I had nothing to compare Obama to, from a personal perspective. Now I do and what I see has given me a deeper appreciation for how Obama conducted himself in the White House.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 09, 2017, 08:20:05 PM
Get that man some Pepto or something cause he has some serious diarrhea of the mouth.

geeze, I thought Obama had thin skin due to the way he complained about Fox but Trump's skin is so thin he literally bleeds if you look at him too hard.
Obama was thin skinned? That is counter to everything he had to deal with and took in stride. He was thicker skinned than any recent president I can remember all the way from Reagan.

Personal perception is not always perfect, even in hindsight. Sometimes it helps to have something to compare.
That is why I asked the question. I don't know everything, even though some people think that I think I do, so there is a huge chance that you are aware of things I am not. Because from what I know, I think he was pretty thick skinned.

Quote from: Mr. B
I wasn't very politically aware before 2008 so I had nothing to compare Obama to, from a personal perspective. Now I do and what I see has given me a deeper appreciation for how Obama conducted himself in the White House.
I don't want to be politically aware, but if I want to try to ensure a safe future, I have to be. Already, I think that Trump has proven to be our worst tempered president.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on February 09, 2017, 11:25:18 PM
Trump's Muslim ban remains blocked. Unanimous court decision. This will likely go to the Supreme Court now, but still very good news:

Court Refuses to Reinstate Travel Ban, Dealing Trump Another Legal Loss
 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/politics/appeals-court-trump-travel-ban.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64895393&pgtype=article)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 09, 2017, 11:28:28 PM
Trump's Muslim ban remains blocked. Unanimous court decision. This will likely go to the Supreme Court now, but still very good news:

Court Refuses to Reinstate Travel Ban, Dealing Trump Another Legal Loss
 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/politics/appeals-court-trump-travel-ban.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64895393&pgtype=article)

The burn! Trump will be Tweetin' now! :lol:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 10, 2017, 12:00:44 AM

The burn! Trump will be Tweetin' now! :lol:

Yes, he went full capslock (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/829836231802515457) for a typically idiotic mini-rant.

(http://i.imgur.com/lrQI4x6.png)

The thing is, Trump's idea of "extreme vetting" is ignorant, because the vetting on people coming from these countries is already extremely rigorous (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/01/25/syrian-refugees-trump-extreme-vetting-column/97043442/).

In addition: "It’s Not Foreigners Who are Plotting Here: What the Data Really Show" | Lawfare (https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show)

The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 10, 2017, 12:10:06 AM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6c/6ccccb4c17e9509ef763c7bcd10593124a2e5be490839cdcb3cb29b8dc412307.jpg)

Is fear mongering the only tactic in his arsenal?   ::)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 10, 2017, 01:13:12 AM
The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.

Middle man here,

I am curious what WILL make the US safer? Or is the argument that we are all ready safe enough and all this talk of security and walls and vetting and deportation is just a political ruse?

The only reason I am confused is because of shit like this.


Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 10, 2017, 03:20:16 AM
The title is misleading, but essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.

Middle man here,

I am curious what WILL make the US safer? Or is the argument that we are all ready safe enough and all this talk of security and walls and vetting and deportation is just a political ruse?

The only reason I am confused is because of shit like this.


1. Did you read the article?

2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

3. Do you realize that there is already a physical barrier in many places along the southern border?

Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?

The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 10, 2017, 08:45:01 AM
I am also confused by your logic, Mr B.

There is only so much any politician can say about a subject that he or she perceives to be important to the electorate. Within their diverse ideological limits they will say similar things, come to similar conclusions. Make similar promises they can't keep without beggaring the naion.
 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on February 10, 2017, 02:36:05 PM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6c/6ccccb4c17e9509ef763c7bcd10593124a2e5be490839cdcb3cb29b8dc412307.jpg)

Is fear mongering the only tactic in his arsenal?   ::)
Is that Neil Degrasse Tyson?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 10, 2017, 02:38:40 PM
Yep.  ;D

(http://s.glbimg.com/po/tt/f/original/2012/05/17/neil_degrasse_tyson.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 11, 2017, 02:00:16 AM

1. Did you read the article?

No, I just read your summation. I probably should have read the article before commenting but I was pressed for time. I simply trusted your summary and responded to it with a couple of questions.

Quote
2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

Although none of the clips support building an actual wall, they do support the desire for controlling the border. What difference does it make if it's a physical wall or an invisible fence? The desire to keep track of and control the flow of people into our country has been expressed by many people from both major political parties. If they don't mean what they say, then they shouldn't say it.

Quote
3. Do you realize that there is already a physical barrier in many places along the southern border?

Yes. In some places it's a river. In some places it's a fence. In some places it's a wall. In some places it's just open dessert waste land.

Does that kind of rhetoric help ISIS recruit more people to fight against the west?
The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

It's all contextual conjecture. There were reports that ISIS was smuggling their fighters in among refugees.

[BERLIN — An Algerian couple, suspected of planning a terrorist attack in Berlin and arrested on suspicion of belonging to the Islamic State, entered Germany late last year and applied for asylum as Syrian refugees — part of a pattern of terrorism suspects entering Europe under the guise of fleeing war, the German authorities said Friday.

The police in Berlin published a photo they said was of the husband, showing a bearded man with his face blacked out, pointing a pistol at the camera, with two Kalashnikov rifles propped up beside him on a sofa strewn with other weapons. The photo was believed to have been taken in Syria, where German media reports said the man had received terrorist training with the Islamic State.]
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/world/europe/germany-refugees-isis.html?_r=0

Here, Mrs. Clinton explains how Trump's rhetoric is being used by ISIS as a recruiting tool.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-quick-cuts/watch/clinton-trump-s-rhetoric-being-used-for-terror-recruitment-768508995786

She told us that CIA director Michael Hayden said "Donald Trump is being used as a recruiting Sergeant for the Terrorists."

These are the two quickest examples I could find to illustrate what is befuddling me. On the one hand, we have reports that ISIS is using the refugee crisis to smuggle their people into other countries. On another hand we have claims that ISIS is using Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric, concerning border security, as a tool to recruit more people to their cause. Then on the next foot we have a video showing all kinds of "tuff" talk about reinforcing our southern border by Democrats. Yet, I am to believe that it is somehow anti American and pro ISIS now that Trump is promising to reinforce our borders when we know that ISIS is trying it's best to sneak in?

I'm not making a point. I am seeking clarification from people whom I consider to be more educated about these things than I.

I am also confused by your logic, Mr B.

Me too.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 11, 2017, 05:14:48 AM

1. Did you read the article?

No, I just read your summation. I probably should have read the article before commenting but I was pressed for time. I simply trusted your summary and responded to it with a couple of questions.

OK. There are two separate issues here that you seem to be conflating.

The southern border of the US and how the government deals with the problems associated with it is one issue. The threat of terrorism perpetrated by immigrants from Muslim-majority countries overseas is a separate issue. Mixing the two together will not help to gain clarity in regard to either one of them.

My post as well as the two articles I linked, and the court case that Trump was commenting on are about the second issue, and that issue alone.

The Lawfare article (https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show) is over 4,000 words of analysis and exposition. My summary was extremely brief because it's a complex topic and I expected that anybody who actually had an interest in the topic would read the article.

Here are a few quotes that may whet your appetite:

Quote
[T]he Bowling Green Massacre aside, it’s possible that Conway is right in some larger sense: that a close look at these cases would show heaps of refugees or immigrants from the seven named countries—Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen—plotting to blow things up and shoot up nightclubs and concert halls.

So let’s take a hard look at some empirical data I put together on who the terrorists are and how they relate to the assumptions in the executive order.

For those who don’t want to do this deep dive, here’s a quick two-sentence summary: Conway’s position is empirically indefensible. Absolutely nothing in the large body of data we have about real terrorist plots in the United States remotely supports either a focus on barring refugees or a focus on these particular seven countries.

Nothing.

[. . .]

The Program on Extremism at George Washington University has routinely published statistics indicating that the “vast majority” of individuals charged in the U.S. with offenses related to ISIL are U.S. citizens. When considering all terrorism offenses, that claim holds up—80 of the 97 suspects arrested in the past two years, or more than 82 percent, are American citizens.

Most of those, notably, are not naturalized citizens. Of the U.S. citizens, only six were naturalized. In other words, more than 76 percent of individuals arrested by the FBI over the past two years for terrorism-related offenses were U.S. citizens as a result of having been born in the United States.

[. . .]

[O]f those subjects who planned and took concrete steps to conduct an attack in the United States, only one, Nelash Mohamed Das—the citizen of Bangladesh who was arrested at the house of his target—is not an American citizen. The remaining 26 terrorism subjects who plotted terrorist attacks in the United States are all non-naturalized U.S. citizens. Some like Mohamed Bailor Jalloh, Jonas M. Edmonds, and Munir Abdulkader chose military and law enforcement targets, as alleged by the government. Several others planned attacks in New York City, or tried to emulate the Boston Marathon Bombings use of pressure cookers.

* * *

Now for a diversion onto the separate issue of the southern border. . . .

2. The title of that Dice video (Top Democrats All Agree with Trump's Immigration Plan and Building The Wall to Stop Illegals) is bullshit. None of the clips actually support it.

Although none of the clips support building an actual wall, they do support the desire for controlling the border. What difference does it make if it's a physical wall or an invisible fence? The desire to keep track of and control the flow of people into our country has been expressed by many people from both major political parties. If they don't mean what they say, then they shouldn't say it.

You will be hard pressed to find any politician in the US who does not support strong border controls on the southern border of the US. That doesn't mean that Trump's bloviation on the topic is supported by the politicians Dice showed clips of. The title of Dice's video is blatantly dishonest.

* * *

. . . And so back to the confusion between the two separate issues.

The Dice video is about the southern border of the US. I'm sure you realize that has practically nothing to do with ISIS, and ISIS recruitment, so what is your point?

It's all contextual conjecture. There were reports that ISIS was smuggling their fighters in among refugees.

Not over the southern border of the US, though, and not among the refugees entering the US from overseas either, right?

Quote
BERLIN — An Algerian couple, suspected of planning a terrorist attack in Berlin and arrested on suspicion of belonging to the Islamic State, entered Germany late last year and applied for asylum as Syrian refugees — part of a pattern of terrorism suspects entering Europe under the guise of fleeing war, the German authorities said Friday.

The police in Berlin published a photo they said was of the husband, showing a bearded man with his face blacked out, pointing a pistol at the camera, with two Kalashnikov rifles propped up beside him on a sofa strewn with other weapons. The photo was believed to have been taken in Syria, where German media reports said the man had received terrorist training with the Islamic State.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/world/europe/germany-refugees-isis.html?_r=0

The first article I linked talks about the vetting process that is already in place for people coming to the US as refugees from overseas, and how extremely rigorous it is already. What is happening in Europe is a red herring.

Here, Mrs. Clinton explains how Trump's rhetoric is being used by ISIS as a recruiting tool.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc-quick-cuts/watch/clinton-trump-s-rhetoric-being-used-for-terror-recruitment-768508995786

She told us that CIA director Michael Hayden said "Donald Trump is being used as a recruiting Sergeant for the Terrorists."

Clinton clearly described the rhetoric that she was referring to. It has nothing to do with the southern border of the US. It has everything to do with an anti-Muslim stance by Trump.

These are the two quickest examples I could find to illustrate what is befuddling me. On the one hand, we have reports that ISIS is using the refugee crisis to smuggle their people into other countries. On another hand we have claims that ISIS is using Donald Trump's campaign rhetoric, concerning border security, as a tool to recruit more people to their cause.

See above. There is no basis for conflating Trump's blathering about building a wall on the southern border of the US with his anti-Muslim rhetoric, and the existing vetting process for immigrants coming into the US from overseas is not comparable to what is going on in Europe.

Then on the next foot we have a video showing all kinds of "tuff" talk about reinforcing our southern border by Democrats. Yet, I am to believe that it is somehow anti American and pro ISIS now that Trump is promising to reinforce our borders when we know that ISIS is trying it's best to sneak in?

Trump is not "pro ISIS" and nobody has said that he is. However, his xenophobic comments about Muslims have been used as a recruiting tool by ISIS.

Again, the southern border is a separate issue from the any attempts by ISIS to infiltrate by posing as refugees coming from overseas, and I'm having trouble understanding why you've intertwined them in the way that you have.


Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on February 11, 2017, 10:48:13 AM
Yep.  ;D

(http://s.glbimg.com/po/tt/f/original/2012/05/17/neil_degrasse_tyson.jpg)
Ha!

He's one of my favourite popularisers of all things complicated.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 11, 2017, 11:12:13 AM
Yes, a gifted speaker too and a bit more charismatic than Dawkins. ;D
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on February 11, 2017, 11:20:28 AM
Yes, I do prefer his style over that of prof. Dawkins, although the latter does have his moments. I saw this film where he was lecturing religious students on factual things, and it did change my already positive perspective of him to the better. Still, he is somewhat abrasive.

...I think me I deserves to have a Neil Degrasse Tyson vid in the background while I'm redefining computer science here, followed by a Richard Dawkins one. :smilenod:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 11, 2017, 08:02:58 PM
To elucidate the idea that Trump's rhetoric as well as his "travel ban" are nothing other than counter-productive when it comes to making the US safer from ISIS and other violent radical Islamists:

"Is Trump Driving Recruits to ISIS?" | Scientific American (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/is-trump-driving-recruits-to-isis/)

Quote
Is Donald Trump effectively acting as an ISIS recruiting sergeant? The research we and other social psychologists have conducted in recent years suggests that the answer is probably yes.

Fueling Extremes

For starters, consider the fact that, when Trump announced his intention to ban Muslims from the U.S. on the campaign trail, ISIS promptly re-aired the announcement as part of its propaganda offensive. At the time, General James Mattis, now Secretary of Defense, said the proposed ban was “causing us great damage.” ISIS leaders also used news of Trump’s election victory as a rallying cry, celebrating it as heralding “the imminent demise of America.”  And, although it is too early to gauge the full reaction to this latest escalation, jihadist groups have already hailed the “blessed ban” as proof the U.S. is at war with Islam—with one group going so far as to describe President Trump as “the best caller to Islam,” according to the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/jihadist-groups-hail-trumps-travel-ban-as-a-victory/2017/01/29/50908986-e66d-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?utm_term=.d747b4cd0506&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1).

All the early evidence indicates that the seven-nation ban doesn't fight fire with fire—as President Trump contends—but rather adds fuel to that fire. The reciprocal dynamic here could not be clearer: Trump feeds off ISIS and ISIS feeds off Trump. This is part of what Douglas Pratt from the University of Waikato in New Zealand refers to as co-radicalization. Extreme actions and statements are used to provoke others to treat your own group as dangerous—and that helps to consolidate followers around those very leaders who preach greater emnity. 

[Continues . . . (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/is-trump-driving-recruits-to-isis/)]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 11, 2017, 08:35:27 PM
I heard something on the news about a new executive order, regarding the ban, early next week, context was instead of fighting the current court decisions.

Seems that some evangelicals are not happy with the ban either.

Quote
Evangelical figures from all 50 states published a letter this week calling on President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence to rethink their four-month moratorium on refugee resettlement. (https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-02-10/christian-leaders-are-coming-out-against-trump-s-travel-ban)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 13, 2017, 08:48:49 AM
Defence Intelligence director Flynn may have talked with the Russian ambassador before Trump tge election it seems and this vould have been an illegal act.

Quote
Trump adviser had five calls with Russian envoy on day of sanctions: sources (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-idUSKBN14X1YX)

Quote
The calls raised fresh questions among some U.S. officials about contacts between Trump's advisers and Russian officials at a time when U.S. intelligence agencies contend that Moscow waged a multifaceted campaign of hacking and other actions to boost Republican Trump's election chances against Democrat Hillary Clinton.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on February 13, 2017, 07:01:43 PM
I heard something on the news about a new executive order, regarding the ban, early next week, context was instead of fighting the current court decisions.

Seems that some evangelicals are not happy with the ban either.

Quote
Evangelical figures from all 50 states published a letter this week calling on President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence to rethink their four-month moratorium on refugee resettlement. (https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-02-10/christian-leaders-are-coming-out-against-trump-s-travel-ban)

Yeah, well, not enough to realize what fucking hypocrites they are:

For Religious Conservatives, Success and Access at the Trump White House
 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/us/politics/trump-religious-conservatives.html?_r=0)

Quote
Right after Mr. Dobson blessed Mike Pence, and just before the congregation sang “Onward, Christian Soldiers,” Mr. Robison took to the pulpit and asked Mr. Trump to rise.

For six minutes, the president-elect stood as Mr. Robison heaped praise on him, extolling his ability to inspire a crowd, his choice of the deeply religious Mr. Pence as a running mate and his wisdom in selecting a White House team that he deemed “the greatest cabinet I’ve ever seen.”

“You are, in fact, an answer to prayer,” Mr. Robison said, according to a video taken from the back of the church, where every president has attended services since it opened in 1816. “I think you have been designed and gifted by God for this moment.”

I really should read The Handmaid's Tale at some point, but it might make my head explode.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 13, 2017, 08:00:53 PM
Quote
I really should read The Handmaid's Tale at some point, but it might make my head explode.
Do so, Icarus! One of the best books of its genre I have read. Even the movie was pretty good.

In fact, might look for a copy of the movie, could easily watch it again . . .

Later: on second thoughts . . . The DVD is about £80 new, 2nd hand ones between £18 and almost £70!!! Wish I had kept my old one, think I paid ten quid for it, could gave made a good profit!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 14, 2017, 08:13:41 AM
Flynn has resigned - after, almost simultaneous, conflicting statements by Spicer (Flynn's position being assessed) and Conway (Flynn has president's confidence).

The pundits seem to think this is not the last upset for Trump's team.

No surprise.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 14, 2017, 09:00:15 AM
Flynn has resigned - after, almost simultaneous, conflicting statements by Spicer (Flynn's position being assessed) and Conway (Flynn has president's confidence).

The pundits seem to think this is not the last upset for Trump's team.

No surprise.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/4oXSaJkOYish2/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 06:21:10 AM
Seems Flynn was asked to redign because he had lost Trmp's trust, not because he "flouted the law."

So, it's OK to "flout the law" in Trump's administration?

Trump knew about it weeks ago it seems, sounds like a case of head in the sand - hope it will all go away if they didn't mention it. Then it leaked . . .

Correction: Trump only found out a short time ago from the media but his staff knew at least two weeks ago. Still seems to indicate division,  confusion or wiilful evasion amongst Trumps staff.

Trump said he hates illegal leaks, but he akso said he loved Wikileaks when he was hitting Clinton over her emails. "Consistent" seems to be missing from Trump's lexicon. Not even the pseudo-conistency of any "normal" politician. The trump administration's spin is amateurish at best. More like spun glass.

[But not as attractive as this piece of spun glass!]

: show
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/DaveGlos/Mobile%20Uploads/2e218d2d74c32dd37c5cdc13fd3eb08c.jpg) (http://s778.photobucket.com/user/DaveGlos/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2e218d2d74c32dd37c5cdc13fd3eb08c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 08:55:06 AM
Every time I hear this story the media seem to have a very slightly different version of who knew what when.

There is now talk of the Republicans holding an enquirey into it. One might guess that there are sone regrets amongst the elephants that they actually won the election. Had this been a Democrat predident they would probsbly be spinning up grounds for impeachnent by now. Incompetence is not technically an impeachable "offence" it seems.

The accusations of sexual assault, the questions over his tax returns and other possible criminal matters still lurk.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 01:57:16 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make absolutely sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.

?

He has to be 100% squeaky clean in that respect. Is it possible that Trump can be 100% squeay clean in any respect?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2017, 02:01:11 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make absolutely sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.

?

He has to be 100% squeaky clean in that respect. Is it possible that Trump can be 100% squeay clean in any respect?
No one is going to be squeaky clean, but we can be sure whether or not a President was getting some money and support from a foreign entity. The "absolutely sure" means a thorough investigation, not that we need someone who is squeaky clean.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 02:10:27 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make absolutely sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.

?

He has to be 100% squeaky clean in that respect. Is it possible that Trump can be 100% squeay clean in any respect?
No one is going to be squeaky clean, but we can be sure whether or not a President was getting some money and support from a foreign entity. The "absolutely sure" means a thorough investigation, not that we need someone who is squeaky clean.

Sorry, Davin, I added the "absolutely" to your post. But, you are correct, no one is 100% clean at that level of authority/power. One can only hope that he proves to be as clean as humanly possible. That he cleanly severs all commercial and financial links with any Russian organisation, company or individual  that has such links.

But . . . It would be rather embarrassing to have a president open to blackmail!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2017, 02:15:52 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make absolutely sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.

?

He has to be 100% squeaky clean in that respect. Is it possible that Trump can be 100% squeay clean in any respect?
No one is going to be squeaky clean, but we can be sure whether or not a President was getting some money and support from a foreign entity. The "absolutely sure" means a thorough investigation, not that we need someone who is squeaky clean.

Sorry, Davin, I added the "absolutely" to your post. But, you are correct, no one is 100% clean at that level of authority/power. One can only hope that he proves to be as clean as humanly possible. That he cleanly severs all commercial and financial links with any Russian organisation, company or individual  that has such links.

But . . . It would be rather embarrassing to have a president open to blackmail!
I feel that if he has already been compromised by accepting money and/or other support from a foreign entity, that he should no longer be president nor hold any office in the federal government.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 02:55:16 PM
I think it's important not to forget the Russian involvement. We need to make absolutely sure that our president is not being controlled by a foreign entity.

?

He has to be 100% squeaky clean in that respect. Is it possible that Trump can be 100% squeay clean in any respect?
No one is going to be squeaky clean, but we can be sure whether or not a President was getting some money and support from a foreign entity. The "absolutely sure" means a thorough investigation, not that we need someone who is squeaky clean.

Sorry, Davin, I added the "absolutely" to your post. But, you are correct, no one is 100% clean at that level of authority/power. One can only hope that he proves to be as clean as humanly possible. That he cleanly severs all commercial and financial links with any Russian organisation, company or individual  that has such links.

But . . . It would be rather embarrassing to have a president open to blackmail!
I feel that if he has already been compromised by accepting money and/or other support from a foreign entity, that he should no longer be president nor hold any office in the federal government.

I entirely agree but would add that, apart from his commercial links, his inconsistent personality and behaviour make him a bad choice for any diplomatic position with absolute authority over so much power. Even if he were not a billionaire, with (possibly dirty) fingers in all kinds of pies, he seems eminently unsuitable for his office on ethical and moral grounds at least.

But, is he alone in that in American history, or ust an extreme and obvious case?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2017, 03:36:40 PM
I entirely agree but would add that, apart from his commercial links, his inconsistent personality and behaviour make him a bad choice for any diplomatic position with absolute authority over so much power. Even if he were not a billionaire, with (possibly dirty) fingers in all kinds of pies, he seems eminently unsuitable for his office on ethical and moral grounds at least.

But, is he alone in that in American history, or ust an extreme and obvious case?
I agree, that's why I didn't vote for him. Other people thought that it was a good trait. Those other people won. However much I disagree with that kind of behavior, I don't think it as dangerous or bad as him being under the thumb of foreign entities.

I think that either "side" of the Trump supporters can agree that a president being controlled by a foreign entity is a bad thing, even if we disagree on everything else about Trump.

I think we could also agree that a president with a clear vested interest in matters involving him or his close friends and families, cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the them or other Americans. Though that one is a little more difficult to get across.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 04:23:00 PM
I entirely agree but would add that, apart from his commercial links, his inconsistent personality and behaviour make him a bad choice for any diplomatic position with absolute authority over so much power. Even if he were not a billionaire, with (possibly dirty) fingers in all kinds of pies, he seems eminently unsuitable for his office on ethical and moral grounds at least.

But, is he alone in that in American history, or ust an extreme and obvious case?
I agree, that's why I didn't vote for him. Other people thought that it was a good trait. Those other people won. However much I disagree with that kind of behavior, I don't think it as dangerous or bad as him being under the thumb of foreign entities.

I think that either "side" of the Trump supporters can agree that a president being controlled by a foreign entity is a bad thing, even if we disagree on everything else about Trump.

I think we could also agree that a president with a clear vested interest in matters involving him or his close friends and families, cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the them or other Americans. Though that one is a little more difficult to get across.

Yes, those who chose him and now, perhaps, realised they made the wrong choice are going to "defend" themselves by keeping their head low, until, maybe, his policies affect them sufficiently seriously and adversely that they figure everyone else is so angry their original choice will be forgotten.

"I got it wrong" does not come readily to some.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Yes, those who chose him and now, perhaps, realised they made the wrong choice are going to "defend" themselves by keeping their head low, until, maybe, his policies affect them sufficiently seriously and adversely that they figure everyone else is so angry their original choice will be forgotten.

"I got it wrong" does not come readily to some.
That is my hope. But to achieve it, I think we need to get very familiar with the facts and to educate with empathy. Even though many are still dancing as the place burns up around them, we're still in the same boat, so we're still affected. Well, I guess others in other countries aren't in the same boat, but they still get a bit affected.

"I got it wrong" I think is something that takes practice and diligence. It doesn't come easy to very many people and I think it's a sign of a great mind.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
Quote
"I got it wrong" I think is something that takes practice and diligence. It doesn't come easy to very many people and I think it's a sign of a great mind.

Betcha Trump can't sincerely conceive of the idea.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 15, 2017, 09:12:42 PM
This is a bit out of date re Flynn but is another opinion of the state of damnation that is Trump's governing style.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/12/us/politics/national-security-council-turmoil.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1


Hey. I have just decided to declare a copyright on  "The State of Damnation"!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 17, 2017, 03:19:28 PM
First Flynn resigns because he lied, then the next choice turns the job down. Now Trump wants to appoint one of his mates to "review" those pesky security agencies.

Just hope the spooks have more integrity and professionalism than the president.

But, of course, it's all fine and dandy in the Shite House. Nothing wrong there, folks.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 17, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
He was rather pleased with himself last year when he got on the cover of TIME magazine for the first time. I expect he's less enthusiastic about their more recent cover.

(http://i.imgur.com/eddcTV0.jpg)
Image Credit: Tim O’Brien/TIME
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 23, 2017, 06:25:46 PM

1. Did you read the article?

No, I just read your summation. I probably should have read the article before commenting but I was pressed for time. I simply trusted your summary and responded to it with a couple of questions.

OK. There are two separate issues here that you seem to be conflating.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this.

Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/

I realize that some people might not give Hannity the benefit of any doubt but they did site their sources so if it can be demonstrated to me that these top level people under Obama did not actually say what Hannity and his sources claim they said then my current thinking about the subject may change.

Ultimately, I believe in the rule of law. Currently, there are laws which govern how to come into the United States of America. Many years ago it was declared that the immigration system was broken. I haven't seen anything yet which explains when, how or who broke it. However, from my understanding, the two solutions offered are either to ignore our laws and erase the borders to let everybody in and grant them full citizenship privileges or baton down the hatches and enforce the laws that are already on the books.

I don't know what the solution is. All I know is that if I sneak into France without documentation...they won't just take my word for it that I'm a decent fellow. They might offer me a couple thousand bucks to go back home though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-immigration-refugees-migrants-ofii-didier-leschi-a7439421.html

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 23, 2017, 08:04:43 PM
Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/
I'm just passing through, but I read that Hannity article and I find that the usage of the language is very misleading. Other than the disreputable sources like Breitbart, the quotes are not warnings. They are conceding that it is possible and that they should probably keep an eye on it, but no one high up warned that ISIS was actually planning any of that.

That's why I don't like Hannity and many other shitty "news" sources, they use misleading language and out of context misquoting to warp reality to create whatever narrative they want.

Quote from: Mr. B
Ultimately, I believe in the rule of law. Currently, there are laws which govern how to come into the United States of America.
I'm willing to bet that most of us are. Yet 100% of all Americans have broken one law or another. With all the laws obscure and out in the open, we all have broken the law, most likely several times a week. It is a rare person nowadays that goes the speed limit. In a city where I used to live, it was illegal for a minor to masturbate, I broke that law many times... But I still consider myself to believe in the rule of law. But what concerns me more than whether minors are masturbating against the law, is whether there is actual unreasonable harm being done. That I think is more important than just following the letter of all the laws.

Quote from: Mr. B
Many years ago it was declared that the immigration system was broken. I haven't seen anything yet which explains when, how or who broke it. However, from my understanding, the two solutions offered are either to ignore our laws and erase the borders to let everybody in and grant them full citizenship privileges or baton down the hatches and enforce the laws that are already on the books.
Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country legally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try. The only way we could take a significant leap into enforcing those violations, would require the "papers please" kind of bullshit that the Nazi's were doing in Germany. Something that goes against our constitutional rights.

I also think you're misrepresenting one of the two sides. People are not saying they want to just open up the borders to everyone, that is misleading information being spread by dishonest people like Hannity. They are more in the middle of your two extremes, they want to increase security on immigration, as well as making the process easier and faster for those who should be allowed in. Sure, there is also talk about amnesty or amnesty light, but that is another topic that gets complicated, but overall, it's not unsafe and costs less.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 08:29:55 PM
...Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country illegally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try...
:secrets1: I think you meant to say, 'legally'.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 23, 2017, 08:30:49 PM
...Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country illegally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try...
:secrets1: I think you meant to say, 'legally'.
Yes I did. Thank you.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 08:34:37 PM
...Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country illegally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try...
:secrets1: I think you meant to say, 'legally'.
Yes I did. Thank you.
You're welcome.
I know what you're talking about.
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/4890360/eddie-crash-respect-o.gif)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 23, 2017, 08:55:23 PM
Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/

If you cannot differentiate between immigrants crossing the southern border without going through the established legal channels and refugees coming from trouble spots overseas after being vetted, then there's not much point to continuing the discussion.

The Hannity article addresses the refugee issue. There is nothing in it about the southern border.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 23, 2017, 09:14:14 PM
The more I listen to and read the news the more I get the impression that the various secretaries and directors under Trump are saying, "Don't listen to the president, this is how it is and will be."

The Sec of State seems to be saying, in Mexico, "We have to talk about this like grown-up countries."  The DefSec sats, "We are committed to NATO providing the rest of you cough-up the cash." Slightly different from Trump's view of the alliance.

National security seems to be more Trump v The Spooks rather than the US v Russia/Daesh.

Can such a divided administration really survive for long, or will there be a string of sackinations until Trump gets a full set of matched sychophants?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: No one on February 23, 2017, 09:31:35 PM
The deeper into the abyss you dwell, the deeper the abyss dwells within you. (http://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 23, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
Can such a divided administration really survive for long, or will there be a string of sackinations until Trump gets a full set of matched sychophants?

This has been on my mind as well. Maybe instead of focusing on building walls between himself and other people, he should look to the house he's living in.  ::)

Trump looks, acts, walks, talks like a raging narcissist, so worshiping sycophants are just the type of thing it seems he'd go for.

All he's consistently done thus far is alienate people. It began early with his own party, now the media, the intelligence community, not to mention entire sections of the US and world population and (military veterans if I recall, blacks, latinos/hispanics, muslims...). His twitter backlashes were funny, now they're just sad...and a little scary.   

It's going to be an interesting 4 (or 8?) years. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 24, 2017, 01:01:38 AM
Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/

If you cannot differentiate between immigrants crossing the southern border without going through the established legal channels and refugees coming from trouble spots overseas after being vetted, then there's not much point to continuing the discussion.

The Hannity article addresses the refugee issue. There is nothing in it about the southern border.

I have often felt that it is improper for people who have knowledge and understanding to withhold their information from the ill informed. It's like the old saying, "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you."

How does anyone learn anything if knowledge and information aren't shared?

I promise to stop using false dichotomies to try and illustrate my way of thinking if you help me understand yours.

From a security standpoint, why should refugees be treated differently than immigrants?

Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/
I'm just passing through, but I read that Hannity article and I find that the usage of the language is very misleading. Other than the disreputable sources like Breitbart, the quotes are not warnings. They are conceding that it is possible and that they should probably keep an eye on it, but no one high up warned that ISIS was actually planning any of that.

That's why I don't like Hannity and many other shitty "news" sources, they use misleading language and out of context misquoting to warp reality to create whatever narrative they want.

I don't much care for Hannity either but I sometimes listen to his show on the way home from work. He is a shill but concerning the topic at hand, are the quotes from the people mentioned accurate? In other words, it's not as important to me how Sean spins his narrative I just want to know if those people said what he, and others, claim they said?

Quote from: Mr. B
Quote from: Davin
Many years ago it was declared that the immigration system was broken. I haven't seen anything yet which explains when, how or who broke it. However, from my understanding, the two solutions offered are either to ignore our laws and erase the borders to let everybody in and grant them full citizenship privileges or baton down the hatches and enforce the laws that are already on the books.
Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country legally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try. The only way we could take a significant leap into enforcing those violations, would require the "papers please" kind of bullshit that the Nazi's were doing in Germany. Something that goes against our constitutional rights.

I'm not suggesting border enforcement or immigration enforcement go door to door looking for people but it is a fact that if you get pulled over by police, the second thing they ask for is your license, registration and insurance. In that typical situation, what are they expected to do if the person driving isn't here legally and doesn't have the proper papers?

Quote from: Davin
I also think you're misrepresenting one of the two sides. People are not saying they want to just open up the borders to everyone, that is misleading information being spread by dishonest people like Hannity. They are more in the middle of your two extremes, they want to increase security on immigration, as well as making the process easier and faster for those who should be allowed in. Sure, there is also talk about amnesty or amnesty light, but that is another topic that gets complicated, but overall, it's not unsafe and costs less.

I apologize for presenting two extremes. I was being hasty. One of the problems I have heard over the years was that there aren't enough judges available to review immigration requests and deportation cases. The legal system is inundated and understaffed in that area. 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 24, 2017, 01:53:29 AM

I have often felt that it is improper for people who have knowledge and understanding to withhold their information from the ill informed. It's like the old saying, "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you."

How does anyone learn anything if knowledge and information aren't shared?

I promise to stop using false dichotomies to try and illustrate my way of thinking if you help me understand yours.

From a security standpoint, why should refugees be treated differently than immigrants?

The article by the person who has worked in the refugee vetting system makes it clear that the process is rigorous and does an effective job of screening out those who shouldn't get into the country. Refugees from places like Syria are already treated differently than regular immigrants. Undocumented workers from south of the border are treated differently than either one of the above.

Do you think that a person from Mexico coming to the United States to try to make a better life for themself is a national security risk?

I don't recall accusing you of using false dichotomies. In fact, I've been pretty clear that I think you're doing something entirely different--failing to acknowledge the fact that there are two discreet topics here: Undocumented migrants entering the country over the southern border and people who wish to enter the country as refugees from overseas are not the same thing. There is nothing "artificial" about distinguishing between the two from a policy standpoint, as the government has done.

I understand that you may have limited time but responding without reading the sources I've presented, as you have in this thread, doesn't help in gaining greater understanding of the topic. That's why your comment about not sharing information falls a bit flat.
 


Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on February 24, 2017, 03:38:27 AM

I have often felt that it is improper for people who have knowledge and understanding to withhold their information from the ill informed. It's like the old saying, "If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you."

How does anyone learn anything if knowledge and information aren't shared?

I promise to stop using false dichotomies to try and illustrate my way of thinking if you help me understand yours.

From a security standpoint, why should refugees be treated differently than immigrants?

The article by the person who has worked in the refugee vetting system makes it clear that the process is rigorous and does an effective job of screening out those who shouldn't get into the country. Refugees from places like Syria are already treated differently than regular immigrants. Undocumented workers from south of the border are treated differently than either one of the above.

Do you think that a person from Mexico coming to the United States to try to make a better life for themself is a national security risk?

I think anyone could be a national security risk. Hell, Donald Trump is a national security risk. I don't think anyone should be treated differently because of their status.

Quote
I don't recall accusing you of using false dichotomies.[/quote[

You didn't. I just recognized that I did and that was wrong. I shouldn't have done that.

Quote
In fact, I've been pretty clear that I think you're doing something entirely different--failing to acknowledge the fact that there are two discreet topics here: Undocumented migrants entering the country over the southern border and people who wish to enter the country as refugees from overseas are not the same thing.

And I am still conflating the two based on the way I perceive the laws and the risks.

Quote
There is nothing "artificial" about distinguishing between the two from a policy standpoint, as the government has done.

Politics is artificial. When people politicize an issue they create an artificial dialogue. 

Quote
I understand that you may have limited time but responding without reading the sources I've presented, as you have in this thread, doesn't help in gaining greater understanding of the topic. That's why your comment about not sharing information falls a bit flat.

I have read most of that article since then but it's been a few days. I'll need to go back and re read it. At the time I was reading it, I don't remember seeing anything that clearly spelled out why refugees from Syria should be treated differently than migrants from Mexico or Canada.

I am tired and sick and feeling cantankerous so I am going to bed. Hopefully I will feel better tomorrow and have an opportunity to reevaluate this conversation. 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on February 24, 2017, 03:53:05 AM
Awww...Mr. B.  :therethere:
I was gonna say a bunch of things, right now, but maybe you should get some rest. We'll talk about this whole thing another day.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 24, 2017, 01:52:38 PM
Truth is, and it took me awhile to really think about it, I am conflating the two issues because I do not see them as separate issues. From where I sit, I don't understand why anyone would separate issues of national security into two artificially different political problems. Under Obama we had several high level security advisors warning us that ISIS planned to smuggle in it's members among refugees including through the Mexico border.

http://www.hannity.com/onair/the-sean-hannity-show-55176/heres-the-list-of-highranking-us-14822366/
I'm just passing through, but I read that Hannity article and I find that the usage of the language is very misleading. Other than the disreputable sources like Breitbart, the quotes are not warnings. They are conceding that it is possible and that they should probably keep an eye on it, but no one high up warned that ISIS was actually planning any of that.

That's why I don't like Hannity and many other shitty "news" sources, they use misleading language and out of context misquoting to warp reality to create whatever narrative they want.

I don't much care for Hannity either but I sometimes listen to his show on the way home from work. He is a shill but concerning the topic at hand, are the quotes from the people mentioned accurate? In other words, it's not as important to me how Sean spins his narrative I just want to know if those people said what he, and others, claim they said?
So if you're asking if the people actually said the portions that were quoted, then the answer is, yes. But if you're asking if they are saying what Hannity says they are saying, then the answer is, no.

Would you like me to demonstrate using your own words, how easy it is to make what you said appear to be something far different than what you meant using the same dishonest techniques? This is a serious question. It's like Darwin's quote where out of context it appears that Darwin conceded that evolution couldn't explain the human eye.

You have to look at what they are actually saying, these people use precise language, that can be easy to change over a game of translating to colloquial. On of the people said, "I think we should watch it. We should be conscious of the potential that Daesh (aka ISIS) may attempt to embed agents within that population." Accepting the potential and saying that it should be watched, is not "warning that ISIS is planning to send agents with refugees."

Another said, "We don’t obviously put it past the likes of ISIL to infiltrate operatives among these refugees." Again, same as above. Then again and again they say it's "possible" but none have warned that ISIS is actually planning it.

It's also possible that they could circumvent the process entirely like people from Cuba had done. Shit, they could hide in one of the million shipping containers that come in a day because not every one of those can be searched. There are a lot of possible ways to get into the country, but what is missing here, is whether any are using any of those possibilities.

Quote from: Mr. B
Quote from: Davin
Quote from: Mr. B
Many years ago it was declared that the immigration system was broken. I haven't seen anything yet which explains when, how or who broke it. However, from my understanding, the two solutions offered are either to ignore our laws and erase the borders to let everybody in and grant them full citizenship privileges or baton down the hatches and enforce the laws that are already on the books.
Most immigration violations come from people who entered the country legally, and for one reason or another, failed to get their visa extended or just didn't even try. The only way we could take a significant leap into enforcing those violations, would require the "papers please" kind of bullshit that the Nazi's were doing in Germany. Something that goes against our constitutional rights.

I'm not suggesting border enforcement or immigration enforcement go door to door looking for people but it is a fact that if you get pulled over by police, the second thing they ask for is your license, registration and insurance. In that typical situation, what are they expected to do if the person driving isn't here legally and doesn't have the proper papers?
Depends. If you're driving a car, you need a license, if you don't have one then you shouldn't be driving. So I'm OK with it in that case. But there is a problem when you're not white and walking around where cops will give a "lawful order" to request identification. I've even been treated like that just because I dressed like a slob. It's not a pleasant experience to be treated like shit by a cop when you're done nothing wrong.

Even in sanctuary cities they do deport immigrants if they commit any of a list of crimes, the kinds of crimes that harm others. I'm fine with that.

Quote from: Mr. B
Quote from: Davin
I also think you're misrepresenting one of the two sides. People are not saying they want to just open up the borders to everyone, that is misleading information being spread by dishonest people like Hannity. They are more in the middle of your two extremes, they want to increase security on immigration, as well as making the process easier and faster for those who should be allowed in. Sure, there is also talk about amnesty or amnesty light, but that is another topic that gets complicated, but overall, it's not unsafe and costs less.

I apologize for presenting two extremes. I was being hasty. One of the problems I have heard over the years was that there aren't enough judges available to review immigration requests and deportation cases. The legal system is inundated and understaffed in that area.
Understaffed courts is one problem. Another problem is that there are many forms, a lot of things to pay for, almost no one to explain the process, and the process changing all the time.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 24, 2017, 02:48:44 PM
More contacts with Russia? More rifts between the Shite House and the spooks? Or just the same old ones grumbling on?
Quote
Reince Priebus accused of asking FBI to refute critical Trump story
The story alleged numerous contacts during the campaign between Russia and Trump team members (http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/reince-priebus-fbi-trump-report-1.3997354)
Sort of asking a favour, yet, at the same time:
Quote
TRUMP HITS FBI: 'Totally unable to stop the national security "leakers"' (http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-tweets-fbi-unable-to-stop-national-security-leakers-2017-2?r=US&IR=T)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 24, 2017, 03:44:01 PM
. . . I am tired and sick and feeling cantankerous so I am going to bed. Hopefully I will feel better tomorrow and have an opportunity to reevaluate this conversation.

I hope you feel better soon, Mr. B.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on February 24, 2017, 05:03:09 PM
The deeper into the abyss you dwell, the deeper the abyss dwells within you. (http://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)
That's very deep.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 24, 2017, 10:05:14 PM
Trump's press pool has been "expanded" . . . by excludng the BBC, CNN and NYT.

OK, they have let others in - like Breitbart, Fox News, Washington Times . . . All good, solid conservatives (or worse).
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 25, 2017, 03:41:13 AM
The Associated Press has obtained a document produced by the Department of Homeland Security (I will always find that name redolent of authoritarianism) for the Trump administration that seems to put a gaping hole in the rationale for the travel ban.

"AP Exclusive: DHS report disputes threat from banned nations" | AP (https://apnews.com/39f1f8e4ceed4a30a4570f693291c866)

Quote
Analysts at the Homeland Security Department's intelligence arm found insufficient evidence that citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries included in President Donald Trump's travel ban pose a terror threat to the United States.

A draft document obtained by The Associated Press concludes that citizenship is an "unlikely indicator" of terrorism threats to the United States and that few people from the countries Trump listed in his travel ban have carried out attacks or been involved in terrorism-related activities in the U.S. since Syria's civil war started in 2011.

Trump cited terrorism concerns as the primary reason he signed the sweeping temporary travel ban in late January, which also halted the U.S. refugee program. A federal judge in Washington state blocked the government from carrying out the order earlier this month. Trump said Friday a new edict would be announced soon. The administration has been working on a new version that could withstand legal challenges.

Homeland Security spokeswoman Gillian Christensen on Friday did not dispute the report's authenticity, but said it was not a final comprehensive review of the government's intelligence.

"While DHS was asked to draft a comprehensive report on this issue, the document you're referencing was commentary from a single intelligence source versus an official, robust document with thorough interagency sourcing," Christensen said. "The ... report does not include data from other intelligence community sources. It is incomplete."

[Continues . . . (https://apnews.com/39f1f8e4ceed4a30a4570f693291c866)]

The document itself is available here (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3474730-DHS-intelligence-document-on-President-Donald.html). The "key findings" are quoted below:

Quote
  • DHS I&A [Intelligence & Analysis] assesses that country of citizenship is unlikely to be a reliable indicator of potential terrorist activity. Since the beginning of the Syrian conflict in March 2011, the foreign-born primarily US-based individuals who were inspired by a foreign terrorist organization to participate in terrorism-related activity were citizens of 26 different countries, with no one country representing more than 13.5 percent of the foreign-born total.
  • Relatively few citizens of the seven countries by E.O. 13769, compared to neighboring countries, maintain access to the United States.
  • Terrorist groups in Iraq, Syria, and Yemen pose a threat of attacks in the United States while groups in Iran, Libya, Somalia, and Sudan remain regionally focused.

The document obtained by AP does nothing but confirm the information contained in one of the articles I previously linked: "It’s Not Foreigners Who are Plotting Here: What the Data Really Show" | Lawfare (https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 25, 2017, 05:45:03 AM
The Associated Press has obtained a document produced by the Department of Homeland Security (I will always find that name redolent of authoritarianism) for the Trump administration that seems to put a gaping hole in the rationale for the travel ban.

"AP Exclusive: DHS report disputes threat from banned nations" | AP (https://apnews.com/39f1f8e4ceed4a30a4570f693291c866)

Quote
Analysts at the Homeland Security Department's intelligence arm found insufficient evidence that citizens of seven Muslim-majority countries included in President Donald Trump's travel ban pose a terror threat to the United States.

A draft document obtained by The Associated Press concludes that citizenship is an "unlikely indicator" of terrorism threats to the United States and that few people from the countries Trump listed in his travel ban have carried out attacks or been involved in terrorism-related activities in the U.S. since Syria's civil war started in 2011.

Trump cited terrorism concerns as the primary reason he signed the sweeping temporary travel ban in late January, which also halted the U.S. refugee program. A federal judge in Washington state blocked the government from carrying out the order earlier this month. Trump said Friday a new edict would be announced soon. The administration has been working on a new version that could withstand legal challenges.

Homeland Security spokeswoman Gillian Christensen on Friday did not dispute the report's authenticity, but said it was not a final comprehensive review of the government's intelligence.

"While DHS was asked to draft a comprehensive report on this issue, the document you're referencing was commentary from a single intelligence source versus an official, robust document with thorough interagency sourcing," Christensen said. "The ... report does not include data from other intelligence community sources. It is incomplete."

[Continues . . . (https://apnews.com/39f1f8e4ceed4a30a4570f693291c866)]

The document itself is available here (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3474730-DHS-intelligence-document-on-President-Donald.html). The "key findings" are quoted below:

Quote
  • DHS I&A [Intelligence & Analysis] assesses that country of citizenship is unlikely to be a reliable indicator of potential terrorist activity. Since the beginning of the Syrian conflict in March 2011, the foreign-born primarily US-based individuals who were inspired by a foreign terrorist organization to participate in terrorism-related activity were citizens of 26 different countries, with no one country representing more than 13.5 percent of the foreign-born total.
  • Relatively few citizens of the seven countries by E.O. 13769, compared to neighboring countries, maintain access to the United States.
  • Terrorist groups in Iraq, Syria, and Yemen pose a threat of attacks in the United States while groups in Iran, Libya, Somalia, and Sudan remain regionally focused.

The document obtained by AP does nothing but confirm the information contained in one of the articles I previously linked: "It’s Not Foreigners Who are Plotting Here: What the Data Really Show" | Lawfare (https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show)

Recusant I must applaud you in your efforts of finding, posting , and (I assume) reading them all thoroughly. I wish I had your stamina in more facets of my life.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 25, 2017, 09:14:40 AM
Trump's Shite House says the DHS report is, "politically motivated". Does that mean "the facts do not  match our policies"? I can see that the country of origin of a person is not an indicator of his political leanings. Militant Islamism has no national ties.

So, more divisions between the administration and those they are, supposedly, administrating? Thought the DHS boss was a Trump assignee, has he no authotity over his own department?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on February 25, 2017, 07:55:35 PM

[/quote]

Recusant I must applaud you in your efforts of finding, posting , and (I assume) reading them all thoroughly.[/quote]


Seconded.  Rec' has long been one of our more erudite, go to guys.  We have several members who are commendably good at what they do and how they inform themselves. 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 27, 2017, 09:11:12 AM
Trump’s choice for Navy secretary withdraws..

Well, at least one more appointee, after Vincent Viola, was honest enough to decide he prefers money to serving his nation for four years (max, hopefully)

Strangely most of the links for this news seem to be from the more conservative media, nothing for the NYT , CNN or BBC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trumps-choice-to-by-navy-secretary-withdraws/2017/02/26/aebc5700-fc80-11e6-9b78-824ccab94435_story.html?utm_term=.6273b84d6cfd
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on February 27, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
Thank you, Arturo and Icarus. It's not so much stamina as it is compulsion. These are interesting times, and as the "old Chinese curse" (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/12/18/live/) reminds us, that's not a good thing. :sidesmile:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on February 27, 2017, 08:33:31 PM
Trump’s choice for Navy secretary withdraws..

Well, at least one more appointee, after Vincent Viola, was honest enough to decide he prefers money to serving his nation for four years (max, hopefully)

Strangely most of the links for this news seem to be from the more conservative media, nothing for the NYT , CNN or BBC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trumps-choice-to-by-navy-secretary-withdraws/2017/02/26/aebc5700-fc80-11e6-9b78-824ccab94435_story.html?utm_term=.6273b84d6cfd

My Dad watches "local" news and all he knows about him is that the travel ban and the he's "putting a stop to transgenders in school bathrooms"
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 01, 2017, 11:50:53 PM
Recusant

I'm going to give this another try. I'm am a little better educated and slightly more clear headed at the moment. Our conversation started out with me asking a couple of questions in response to a comment you made and posting a video which touched upon a point of confusion for me.

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14892.msg346192#msg346192

I balked at your next comment because I wasn't consciously conflating immigration from Mexico with refugees from abroad. However, after some reflection, I admitted that yes, I did conflate the two issues and explained (perhaps poorly) why even after I recognized that I was conflating them that I still choose to do so.

You are 100% correct in your assessment that the comments in the video do not match up to the claim made in the title of the video. Turns out, I didn't know much at all about immigration, refugee vetting or deportation practices a couple of weeks ago. However, I do still insist that refugees and immigrants shouldn't be treated very differently from each other. I still conflate the two separate issues because they still have one thing in common. People wanting to come to America from other countries.

For me, the concern is not so much that I feel or believe that one group posses a greater or lesser "threat" than the other. It's not about "our" safety from my perspective. This conversation got slightly derailed due to my lack of attention and for that I apologize. My learning style and thought process is, and always has been, sloppy and haphazard.

The article you originally posted (https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show), which I responded to, was an argument from safety. It pointed out the stats that refugees weren't a statistical threat. It argued that Trump's policies would make us less safer. So, I asked the question, "...what WILL make us safer?"

That question hasn't been answered from any left leaning persons anywhere as far as I can tell. It's a different discussion than merely the horrible things Trump has done or promises to do. I want to understand why vetting refugees or immigrants is tyrannical. So far, the argument seems to be, "Obama's vetting process is good enough goddammit." Again, that doesn't explain to me how or why Trump's vetting proposals will actually make us less safe. Which is confounding, I understand, because I'm not primarily concerned with the "safety" aspect of the discussion as much as I am about equal treatment. Should someone who has lived and worked her for 20 years be given a pass over someone fleeing a war torn nation? Should someone fleeing a war torn nation be given special access over someone who illegally crossed the southern border last week?

If vetting people from different countries makes us less safe, what will make us more safe? That is the question that I need an answer to. Not because I live in fear of other people but because the argument that Trump's style of vetting with endanger us all.

I need some clarification on that because that is a pretty bold claim in search of evidence.





Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 02, 2017, 12:35:42 AM
I appreciate the effort and time you obviously put into that post, Mr. B.

Trump has talked about "extreme vetting," but what does that mean? The policies laid out (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-trumps-order-on-extreme-vetting-includes-2017-1) in his blocked executive order seem like they'll add to the bureaucracy, but I question whether making the process even more complicated and difficult will actually prevent a determined terrorist better than what's currently in place.

I certainly haven't said that "vetting people from different countries makes us less safe," and none of the sources I cited said that either, so I don't know where you're getting it from. As above, I also am not claiming that "Trump's style of vetting with endanger us all." Rather, I think the broad brush approach taken in the travel ban will serve alienate people in the affected countries. In addition, his rhetoric conveys an anti-Muslim stance that organizations like ISIS can point to and say, "See, the United States is our enemy."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 02, 2017, 01:39:41 AM
Trump has talked about "extreme vetting," but what does that mean? The policies laid out (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-trumps-order-on-extreme-vetting-includes-2017-1) in his blocked executive order seem like they'll add to the bureaucracy, but I question whether making the process even more complicated and difficult will actually prevent a determined terrorist better than what's currently in place.

That is a fair question. I do not object to that kind of questioning. I am rarely a fan of more bureaucratic overreach without a clear understanding of why it's absolutely necessary. Trump hasn't explained clearly why he thinks HIS new and improved vetting process is necessary....other than some "bad dudes" are trying to get in.

Quote from: Recusant
I certainly haven't said that "vetting people from different countries makes us less safe," and none of the sources I cited said that either, so I don't know where you're getting it from.

I got it from one of the articles you posted.

Quote
A little more than a week ago, Benjamin Wittes posted a piece about the malevolence and incompetence of Trump’s Executive Order on visas and refugees—an order that, in his words, is both wildly over-inclusive and wildly under-inclusive. If we take the ban and its stated purpose at face value (which Ben argued we should not), at best, the ban is ineffective and fails “to protect Americans.” At worst, as many experts have suggested over the past few weeks, the Executive Order is completely counterproductive. As ten bipartisan former national security officials—four of whom were briefed regularly on all credible terrorist threat streams against the U.S. as recently as a week before the EO—said in a legal brief on Monday:

    "We view the order as one that ultimately undermines the national security of the United States, rather than making us safer...It could   do long-term damage to our national security and foreign policy interests, endangering U.S. troops in the field and disrupting counterterrorism and national security partnerships."

Ben’s piece touched a nerve. It has received nearly half a million pageviews, according to Google Analytics, and was featured this week on This American Life.
https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show

Which you summarized...

...essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.


Which was the initial thing I was responding to before I read the article.

Quote from: Recusant
As above, I also am not claiming that "Trump's style of vetting with endanger us all." Rather, I think the broad brush approach taken in the travel ban will serve alienate people in the affected countries. In addition, his rhetoric conveys an anti-Muslim stance that organizations like ISIS can point to and say, "See, the United States is our enemy."

I do not agree with the principle behind that argument.

If my neighbor puts up a fence to keep my kids out of his yard, I'm not going to gather up all my friends to storm his castle.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 02, 2017, 04:15:38 AM
Quote from: Recusant
I certainly haven't said that "vetting people from different countries makes us less safe," and none of the sources I cited said that either, so I don't know where you're getting it from.

I got it from one of the articles you posted.

Quote
A little more than a week ago, Benjamin Wittes posted a piece about the malevolence and incompetence of Trump’s Executive Order on visas and refugees—an order that, in his words, is both wildly over-inclusive and wildly under-inclusive. If we take the ban and its stated purpose at face value (which Ben argued we should not), at best, the ban is ineffective and fails “to protect Americans.” At worst, as many experts have suggested over the past few weeks, the Executive Order is completely counterproductive. As ten bipartisan former national security officials—four of whom were briefed regularly on all credible terrorist threat streams against the U.S. as recently as a week before the EO—said in a legal brief on Monday:

    "We view the order as one that ultimately undermines the national security of the United States, rather than making us safer...It could   do long-term damage to our national security and foreign policy interests, endangering U.S. troops in the field and disrupting counterterrorism and national security partnerships."

Ben’s piece touched a nerve. It has received nearly half a million pageviews, according to Google Analytics, and was featured this week on This American Life.
https://lawfareblog.com/its-not-foreigners-who-are-plotting-here-what-data-really-show

Which you summarized...

...essentially what the article says is that the travel ban will not make the US any safer.

The travel ban as a whole is what the article cited as undermining national security. It did not specify that the "extreme vetting" was the primary problem, and neither have I.

Quote from: Recusant
As above, I also am not claiming that "Trump's style of vetting with endanger us all." Rather, I think the broad brush approach taken in the travel ban will serve alienate people in the affected countries. In addition, his rhetoric conveys an anti-Muslim stance that organizations like ISIS can point to and say, "See, the United States is our enemy."

I do not agree with the principle behind that argument.

If my neighbor puts up a fence to keep my kids out of his yard, I'm not going to gather up all my friends to storm his castle.

People that know a lot more than you or I about these issues see a problem, as the quote above shows. You are not an Islamist zealot with a penchant for violence, neither are you a young Muslim man who is susceptible to being recruited by Islamist zealots who cite the actions of the United States as evidence that the US "hates" him and his family, friends, and nation. Your view of this topic, while worth discussing, is not what the national security professionals are considering.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 06, 2017, 02:14:31 PM
One of my favorite bands of all time is R.E.M. I would count them in my top five. Lately, with all the flap about Jeff Sessions and Trump and the Trump campaign vs. Russians. I am reminded of this classic (to me at least)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo)

Seems, the Democratic Party is exhuming McCarthy. And here I was under the impression that they were the rational adults in the room.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am attacking them from the left because I was so close to becoming a True BelieverTM in the DNC.

I am disappoint because I was fairly excited about finally being able to identify with a party brand but then Trump got elected and now this hypocritical bullshit.

Now, back to square one.

I'm damn near declaring anarchy.
Why do you have to put political bullshit (along with a clear false equivalence between McCarthyism and what is going on now), in a Music thread?

Politics is a well known touchy subject, and that is not the thread for touchy subjects. There is a whole Politics forum for you put this in where you can get a useful discussion out of it. Like someone could point out how dragging hundreds of people through the mud for something that shouldn't have been considered bad in the first place, is far different than trying to find out if the President colluded with a foreign government.

So I'm putting this response here, because I think this is where it belongs.

Can we try refrain from using hyperbolic terminology? Unless it's a joke or we're making fun of people who tend to over use hyperbolic terminology. Can we try to compare things accurately? Because shit like this doesn't help to get at the truth it helps to conceal truth.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on March 06, 2017, 05:27:27 PM
My Dad listens to a conservative radio station when driving. That and he goes to a restaurant for breakfast with Fox News playing on every TV. Why does he put up with this? I have no idea.

However, I've been working with him on the weekends and what popped up yesterday was that Trump is accusing Obama of wire tapping his phones during the election campaign. He wants Congress to investigate his unsubstantiated claim. He has no premise for this conclusion. By that definition, it's not even an argument. It's just a random claim from off the top of his head so he wants Congress to confirm his paranoia.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 06, 2017, 05:55:00 PM
He wins either way. I highly doubt there was a wire tap. But if they investigate and find nothing, well his core supporters will just think there was a cover up. But if they do find something, then he wins biggly. It's not an irrational choice for him, he risks almost nothing and has a lot to gain if it works.

I hope that all of his crazy bullshit turns out to be false. The more his baseless claims get shown to be false, the less support he will get until all he has left is the crazy fringe. If he were smart, he'd filter in some true things to try to keep hold of the support for longer.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 06, 2017, 06:33:51 PM
He wins either way. I highly doubt there was a wire tap. But if they investigate and find nothing, well his core supporters will just think there was a cover up. But if they do find something, then he wins biggly. It's not an irrational choice for him, he risks almost nothing and has a lot to gain if it works.

I hope that all of his crazy bullshit turns out to be false. The more his baseless claims get shown to be false, the less support he will get until all he has left is the crazy fringe. If he were smart, he'd filter in some true things to try to keep hold of the support for longer.
True, his core supporters are stupid enough to stick with his shit no matter how bad it stinks. But there will always be the fringe element, those who waiver a little and can toggle pro or anti. With his 4 week approval rating low compared to the last three prezzes it will be interesting to see what his 8 week one is.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 03:25:29 AM
One of my favorite bands of all time is R.E.M. I would count them in my top five. Lately, with all the flap about Jeff Sessions and Trump and the Trump campaign vs. Russians. I am reminded of this classic (to me at least)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo)

Seems, the Democratic Party is exhuming McCarthy. And here I was under the impression that they were the rational adults in the room.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am attacking them from the left because I was so close to becoming a True BelieverTM in the DNC.

I am disappoint because I was fairly excited about finally being able to identify with a party brand but then Trump got elected and now this hypocritical bullshit.

Now, back to square one.

I'm damn near declaring anarchy.
Why do you have to put political bullshit (along with a clear false equivalence between McCarthyism and what is going on now), in a Music thread?

Politics is a well known touchy subject, and that is not the thread for touchy subjects. There is a whole Politics forum for you put this in where you can get a useful discussion out of it. Like someone could point out how dragging hundreds of people through the mud for something that shouldn't have been considered bad in the first place, is far different than trying to find out if the President colluded with a foreign government.

So I'm putting this response here, because I think this is where it belongs.

Can we try refrain from using hyperbolic terminology? Unless it's a joke or we're making fun of people who tend to over use hyperbolic terminology. Can we try to compare things accurately? Because shit like this doesn't help to get at the truth it helps to conceal truth.

I'll try. But nothing is ever exactly the same. That's why we have analogies. Or close approximations. But, I'm not going to apologize for saying what I said where I said it because I am beholden to my stream of consciousness. I am neither Popeye nor God but just like them, I am who I am. You can accept me or not. I'm sorry if you do not feel like my comment belonged there. I just wanted to explain why I was listening to that particular song.

McCarthyism was a political witch hunt that focused on individual people's affiliation with communist Russia.

Why do you think that is not happening now?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 07, 2017, 06:27:41 AM
McCarthyism was not about people who had affiliations with communism. It was about people who were accused, mostly falsely, of being affiliated with communism. Joe McCarthy accused even Jesus of being a commie sympathizer.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 07, 2017, 01:57:44 PM
One of my favorite bands of all time is R.E.M. I would count them in my top five. Lately, with all the flap about Jeff Sessions and Trump and the Trump campaign vs. Russians. I am reminded of this classic (to me at least)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo)

Seems, the Democratic Party is exhuming McCarthy. And here I was under the impression that they were the rational adults in the room.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am attacking them from the left because I was so close to becoming a True BelieverTM in the DNC.

I am disappoint because I was fairly excited about finally being able to identify with a party brand but then Trump got elected and now this hypocritical bullshit.

Now, back to square one.

I'm damn near declaring anarchy.
Why do you have to put political bullshit (along with a clear false equivalence between McCarthyism and what is going on now), in a Music thread?

Politics is a well known touchy subject, and that is not the thread for touchy subjects. There is a whole Politics forum for you put this in where you can get a useful discussion out of it. Like someone could point out how dragging hundreds of people through the mud for something that shouldn't have been considered bad in the first place, is far different than trying to find out if the President colluded with a foreign government.

So I'm putting this response here, because I think this is where it belongs.

Can we try refrain from using hyperbolic terminology? Unless it's a joke or we're making fun of people who tend to over use hyperbolic terminology. Can we try to compare things accurately? Because shit like this doesn't help to get at the truth it helps to conceal truth.

I'll try. But nothing is ever exactly the same. That's why we have analogies. Or close approximations. But, I'm not going to apologize for saying what I said where I said it because I am beholden to my stream of consciousness. I am neither Popeye nor God but just like them, I am who I am. You can accept me or not. I'm sorry if you do not feel like my comment belonged there. I just wanted to explain why I was listening to that particular song.
Are you saying that you are not in control of your own actions?

Quote from: Mr. B
McCarthyism was a political witch hunt that focused on individual people's affiliation with communist Russia.

Why do you think that is not happening now?
That's a misleading description of what happened. McCarthyism was a witch hunt, they were concerned in part with Soviet Russia but only because Russia was a communistic state at the time. They were against communism itself and that included many countries that were communistic. Not specific to just Russia, communism as a whole. McCarthy essentially tried to make it illegal in the US to belong to a communist political party. Which is very much against the US Constitution. No such violations of constitutional rights are occurring with the Trump/Russia stuff.

Is that Russia used to be communist, and McCarthy tried to track down and punish all commies, the only similarity you have? Because no one is accusing Trump or his crew of being a communist. They are not dragging them into hearings and trials for their communism. And those were the biggest things about McCarthyism: punishing people for being or even just checking out communism and trying to eliminate communism.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on March 07, 2017, 04:20:04 PM
McCarthyism was not about people who had affiliations with communism. It was about people who were accused, mostly falsely, of being affiliated with communism. Joe McCarthy accused even Jesus of being a commie sympathizer.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Jesus was indeed a commie sympathizer.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 07, 2017, 06:07:51 PM
McCarthyism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism):

Quote
The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.

[Emphasis mine. - R]

Trump's use of the term in his unsubstantiated rage-tweets recklessly accusing the former president of political skulduggery and calling him "bad" and "sick" in a blatantly demagogic call to arms aimed at his supporters is a bizarrely ironic instance of psychological projection.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
Is that Russia used to be communist, and McCarthy tried to track down and punish all commies, the only similarity you have?

Almost. What's happening now and what happened then is the same in that it's "guilt by association". It's not about communism now. Now it's about how the Russians (that old stalwart enemy of ours) allegedly sabotaged the 2016 elections in Trumps favor against Clinton. The dust hasn't settled from the leaks yet and we don't know conclusively that "the Russians" had anything to do with it. We also have testimony from Julian Assange that he didn't get the DNC emails from anyone in Russian. Take that for what it's worth, the moral of the story is we haven't positively identified exactly who it was that hacked into the DNC email server and released private emails.  So, in the current reality, where Hillary was supposed to win and Trump never stood a chance, we find the Democratic Party desperately trying to tie Trump, and anyone associated with him, to the new geopolitical boogyman of the 21st century. The investigations are on going and just because no one has been brought up on charges yet, that doesn't mean someone won't be. And if the investigations reveal that anyone associated with Trump or even Trump himself made side bets or promises and colluded with the Russians to deep six Hillary's campaign through subterfuge then they should be brought to justice for interfering in an election. But the media is pointing it's high powered finger of prosecution by public trial, while the investigations are still ongoing, at anyone in the Trump administration that ever even so much as looked at a Russian.

Quote
Because no one is accusing Trump or his crew of being a communist.

True, but that's not the point. You don't have to be communist to be the enemy. Hell, if the Trump surrogates were talking to China would this be an issue? No, because China wasn't blamed for hacking the election.

Quote
They are not dragging them into hearings and trials for their communism.

They are being dragged into hearings and being investigated for talking to people from Russia during an election. What is the standard we want to set here?



Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 07, 2017, 08:01:23 PM
Is that Russia used to be communist, and McCarthy tried to track down and punish all commies, the only similarity you have?

Almost. What's happening now and what happened then is the same in that it's "guilt by association". It's not about communism now. Now it's about how the Russians (that old stalwart enemy of ours) allegedly sabotaged the 2016 elections in Trumps favor against Clinton. The dust hasn't settled from the leaks yet and we don't know conclusively that "the Russians" had anything to do with it. We also have testimony from Julian Assange that he didn't get the DNC emails from anyone in Russian. Take that for what it's worth, the moral of the story is we haven't positively identified exactly who it was that hacked into the DNC email server and released private emails.  So, in the current reality, where Hillary was supposed to win and Trump never stood a chance, we find the Democratic Party desperately trying to tie Trump, and anyone associated with him, to the new geopolitical boogyman of the 21st century. The investigations are on going and just because no one has been brought up on charges yet, that doesn't mean someone won't be. And if the investigations reveal that anyone associated with Trump or even Trump himself made side bets or promises and colluded with the Russians to deep six Hillary's campaign through subterfuge then they should be brought to justice for interfering in an election. But the media is pointing it's high powered finger of prosecution by public trial, while the investigations are still ongoing, at anyone in the Trump admiration that ever even so much as looked at a Russian.
Some people already admitted to making deals.

Remember Flynn? How he resigned after lying to the Vice President?

Remember that Manafort talked to and was paid by the Russians?

Russia confirmed it communicated with Trump's campaign during the election.

All the US intelligence communities agree that Russia helped Trump during the election.

There is a bunch more of known and confirmed ties to Russia. This idea that there is nothing is misleading, or the result of lack of knowledge at best.

Quote from: Mr. B
Quote
Because no one is accusing Trump or his crew of being a communist.

True, but that's not the point. You don't have to be communist to be the enemy. Hell, if the Trump surrogates were talking to China would this be an issue? No, because China wasn't blamed for hacking the election.
If Trump were colluding with any foreign government it would be just as serious an issue. That it happens to appear to be Russia is not the issue.

Quote from: Mr. B
Quote
They are not dragging them into hearings and trials for their communism.

They are being dragged into hearings and being investigated for talking to people from Russia during an election. What is the standard we want to set here?
They are being dragged in for lying under oath, not for talking to Russia during an election. If Jeff Sessions just said he talked to the Russian ambassador, it wouldn't be a big deal at all and certainly nothing illegal about it. But under oath he said that he had not spoken with Russian officials during the campaign. He offered that lie up without being asked if he personally had talked with Russians during the campaign. I'm fine with setting the standard to bringing them back in for questioning when they lie under oath. Is that not a good standard?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 08:02:24 PM
McCarthyism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism):

Quote
The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.

[Emphasis mine. - R]

Trump's use of the term in his unsubstantiated

Unsubstantiated?

October 31, 2016
Quote
WASHINGTON — For much of the summer, the F.B.I. pursued a widening investigation into a Russian role in the American presidential campaign. Agents scrutinized advisers close to Donald J. Trump, looked for financial connections with Russian financial figures, searched for those involved in hacking the computers of Democrats, and even chased a lead — which they ultimately came to doubt — about a possible secret channel of email communication from the Trump Organization to a Russian bank.
Law enforcement officials say that none of the investigations so far have found any conclusive or direct link between Mr. Trump and the Russian government. And even the hacking into Democratic emails, F.B.I. and intelligence officials now believe, was aimed at disrupting the presidential election rather than electing Mr. Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/us/politics/fbi-russia-election-donald-trump.html?_r=0

Quote
Only Trump knows why he tweeted what he did early on Saturday morning, but there were previous reports and allegations that the Obama administration might have been conducting surveillance on people close to Trump.

Here are some of those reports:

Oct. 31: The New York Times reported that in the summer of 2016 the FBI had investigated whether the Trump Organization had connections to a Russian bank, but concluded that it did not.

Nov. 7, 2016: The website Heat Street posted a piece by former Conservative British politician Louise Mensch stating that "two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed" that the FBI twice sought warrants to "examine activities of 'U.S. persons' in Trump's campaign with ties to Russia." The article states that a June warrant request was denied, and that a second request in October was approved.

Jan. 11: The Guardian reported that a June application by U.S. intelligence to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court had been denied, and that the newspaper had not confirmed the Heat Street reporting about an October order.

Jan. 12: The BBC reported that the June application had been denied, and quoted "a lawyer outside the Department of Justice but familiar with the case" saying the court had granted a request by U.S. intelligence to intercept electronic records from two Russian banks, and that the order involved three of then-President-elect Trump's associates.

March 2: Conservative talk radio host Mark Levin accused Obama of using "the instrumentalities of the federal government, intelligence activity, to surveil members of the Trump campaign and put that information out in the public," on his radio show and podcast, The Mark Levin Show.

March 3: The website Breitbart cited Levin in a post about alleged wiretaps dating back to October 2016.

March 4: Trump tweeted, "Just found out that Obama had my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower."


What do intelligence officials say about the allegations?

The director of the FBI, James Comey, asked the Justice Department to publicly deny the allegation. The Justice Department hasn't said anything.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/06/518797121/faq-on-alleged-wire-taps-of-trump-communications

Trump is a fucking idiot but that doesn't mean he was necessarily wrong. It's the timing that I'm thinking about. I'm guessing this "bombshell" tweet over the weekend would overshadow his new and improved travel ban. It's like watching a kid play checkers or chess. He knows how the pieces move but he doesn't have a strategy. Which is probably a good thing for us as long as we don't allow ourselves to get too offended by having to play this game with a petulant child.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 08:06:24 PM
They are being dragged in for lying under oath, not for talking to Russia during an election.

Why were they even asked? Forget why they felt uncomfortable admitting that they talked to Russians for a moment. That is a separate issue.

I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime so it is fascinating to watch unfold.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 07, 2017, 08:23:01 PM
Unsubstantiated?

Yes. Nothing you posted substantiates Trump's accusation. The closest is the examination of the computer that was connected to a Russian bank. It's only by a very generous and inaccurate interpretation that anybody would describe that as a wiretap. Levin is practically next door to Alex Jones in the loony-tunes conspiracy monger neighborhood.

Trump's twitter crap parallels the "McCarthyism" description in almost every particular. He's earned the opprobrium he's been getting.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 07, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
They are being dragged in for lying under oath, not for talking to Russia during an election.

Why were they even asked?
Because of all the confirmed and speculated Russian involvement. Nothing wrong with asking questions about various topics under questioning.

Quote from: Mr. B
Forget why they felt uncomfortable admitting that they talked to Russians for a moment. That is a separate issue.
It doesn't matter if a person feels uncomfortable about talking about things when speaking under oath, they still lied under oath. It's not really a separate issue. If they were above board, with nothing to hide, why not just tell the truth and say that they were doing their job. Why lie about it?

Quote from: Mr. B
I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime so it is fascinating to watch unfold.
That is true. It's also disturbing and frightening.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 08:38:41 PM
Unsubstantiated?

Yes. Nothing you posted substantiates Trump's accusation. The closest is the examination of the computer that was connected to a Russian bank. It's only by a very generous and inaccurate interpretation that anybody would describe that as a wiretap. Levin is practically next door to Alex Jones in the loony-tunes conspiracy monger neighborhood.

Like I said, Trump is a fucking idiot. To most fucking idiots, the only way to monitor someone's activities is to "bug" or "tap" their phone. It's kind of like how everyone used to use the word Xerox when they wanted a copy of something. "can you Xerox this for me?" Or, how many people use the word "Kleenex" when they want a piece of tissue paper. "You got a Kleenex?" Does it have to be a Kleenex? Does it have to be copied using a Xerox machine?

Wiretap, for fucking idiots, means, "they are watching every move I make".

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 07, 2017, 08:42:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. B
I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime so it is fascinating to watch unfold.
That is true. It's also disturbing and frightening.

Just politics as they are played. The stupid ones get caught, the real bastards get away with it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 07, 2017, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: Mr. B
I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime so it is fascinating to watch unfold.
That is true. It's also disturbing and frightening.

Just politics as they are played. The stupid ones get caught, the real bastards get away with it.
I don't think that is true. Politics, like everything else, is subject to change and changes often.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 07, 2017, 09:21:00 PM
Quote from: Mr. B
I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime so it is fascinating to watch unfold.
That is true. It's also disturbing and frightening.

Just politics as they are played. The stupid ones get caught, the real bastards get away with it.
I don't think that is true. Politics, like everything else, is subject to change and changes often.
Oh, yes, there are various forms of politics but,

politics
ˈpɒlɪtɪks/Submit
noun
1.
the activities associated with the governance of a country or area, especially the debate between parties having power.
"the party quickly gained influence in French politics"
synonyms:   government, local government, affairs of state, public affairs, diplomacy, party politics
"a career in politics"
2.
activities aimed at improving someone's status or increasing power within an organization.
"yet another discussion of office politics and personalities"

the cynic in me says that the second definition remains a constant thread over the ages.

That cynicism also feels that there is usually a thread of the dishonest, by omission, commission, circumvention or whatever. Ambrose Bierce had the flavour of it:

Quote
Politics
n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.

I know your feelings, Davin, but I will only trust a politician in what he or she actually does, after the fact. Rather be told the raw story than what they want me to believe to bolster their position. That is why I can never align myself with any party or polarity. I have to review their performance over the last two or three years then hope that I pick the least worse.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 07, 2017, 09:30:22 PM
Like I said, Trump is a fucking idiot.

Is it wrong to oppose an idiot in power? If intelligence agencies are engaging in surveillance of an inimical foreign power and it is discovered that some of the idiot's inner circle were in communication with that foreign power and then lied about it, is it McCarthyism to call them out for their lies?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 07, 2017, 10:54:04 PM
Like I said, Trump is a fucking idiot.

Is it wrong to oppose an idiot in power?

Of coarse not. What matters is how yo do it.

Quote
If intelligence agencies are engaging in surveillance of an inimical foreign power and it is discovered that some of the idiot's inner circle were in communication with that foreign power and then lied about it, is it McCarthyism to call them out for their lies?

That entirely depends upon the communication. What was actually said. It is McCarthyism for the media et. al to proclaim guilt for simply communicating? If lying under oath is the only standard we are concerned about then why wasn't Hillary prosecuted for her lies under oath while the Democrats were still in control?

I'm not against the ongoing investigations. I also think it was good of Sessions to recuse himself. I just object to the slander without convictions. I object to the guilt by association because people from the Hillary campaign and Democratic senators also talked to Russians during the election but no one is asking them what they talked about.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 08, 2017, 01:28:00 AM
If intelligence agencies are engaging in surveillance of an inimical foreign power and it is discovered that some of the idiot's inner circle were in communication with that foreign power and then lied about it, is it McCarthyism to call them out for their lies?

That entirely depends upon the communication. What was actually said. It is McCarthyism for the media et. al to proclaim guilt for simply communicating?

Where has that guilt been proclaimed? You are remarkably lax about citing examples.

If lying under oath is the only standard we are concerned about then why wasn't Hillary prosecuted for her lies under oath while the Democrats were still in control?

I'm aware that "Hillary LIED!!!" is a right wing talking point. Can you cite any specific instances that support your accusations?

I'm not against the ongoing investigations. I also think it was good of Sessions to recuse himself. I just object to the slander without convictions.

What specific slanders are you aware of?

I object to the guilt by association because people from the Hillary campaign and Democratic senators also talked to Russians during the election but no one is asking them what they talked about.

The American intelligence community has stated that the Russian intelligence services were actively trying to thwart Clinton's campaign, and closer to the election, actively trying to aid Trump. Those that are pointing to contacts between Democratic politicians and the Russian ambassador are engaging in disingenuous false equivalency.

Given the trend in your posts, I expect you will bring up Claire McCaskill. Yes, she lied about her contact with the Russian ambassador, and McCaskill was a Clinton supporter. On the other hand, those contacts took place before she became somewhat prominent as a mouthpiece for Clinton. Again, the Clinton campaign was the target of the Russians. Unless you're getting your information from wackaloon sources, nobody is claiming that there might have been shady dealings of a political nature taking place at a meeting between McCaskill and the Russian ambassador. In fact, the subjects of those contacts are known (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/mar/02/claire-mccaskill/claire-mccaskill-says-she-never-met-russian-ambass/): Protesting the shutdown of adoptions of Russian orphans by American parents, and a discussion of the Iran nuclear limitation agreement.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Mr. B on March 08, 2017, 06:31:20 AM

The guilt is not so much proclaimed as it is implied. The implication is that the Russians stole the election from Hillary therefor, anyone on Trump's team who spoke to any Russian at any time in the past 20 years is culpable for Hillary's loss.

Quote
Just a month into Donald Trump’s presidency, Democratic Party leaders are trying to rein in the talk of impeachment that’s animating the grass roots, the product of a restive base demanding deeper and more aggressive investigations into Trump’s ties to Russia.

Democratic officials in Republican-dominated Washington view the entire subject as a trap, a premature discussion that could backfire in spectacular fashion by making the party appear too overzealous in its opposition to Trump. Worse, they fear, it could harden Republican support for the president by handing his party significant fundraising and political ammunition when the chances of success for an early impeachment push are remote, at best.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-impeachment-democrats-235184


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/01/hillary-clinton/hillary-clintons-wrong-claim-fbi-director-comey-ca/

Comey testified under oath that Hillary did not tell the truth regarding her handling of classified emails.

The GOP asked the Justice Department to look into it.

Quote
The Justice Department declined to comment on the request.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/us/politics/gop-seeks-criminal-inquiry-of-hillary-clintons-testimony-to-congress.html?_r=0

Comey didn't recommend bringing her up on charges because he believed she may have been ignorant of the laws.

I am not aware of any specific slanders. The general slander is that anyone associated with Trump is a piece of shit. At least, that's the impression I get from the general public. There are all kinds of reasons for them being pieces of shit but the one that is the most prominent today is whether or not they communicated with Russians during the election. That's the one that will cause people to lose their job. Or possibly worse.

And again, what is the standard we want to set with this? Should it be officially illegal for anyone working in a campaign to communicate with foreign agents? To claim that no one from the Hillary campaign spoke to anyone from Russia is to deny reality.

The reason the Trump people are being scrutinized is because Trump wasn't supposed to win. If Hillary had won, all we would be hearing about would be Benghazi and her illegal server and her lying about it. But we wouldn't be hearing about how people in her campaign talked to Russian ambassadors.

It's all bullshit.



Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 08, 2017, 07:33:14 AM
Quote
The reason the Trump people are being scrutinized is because Trump wasn't supposed to win. If Hillary had won, all we would be hearing about would be Benghazi and her illegal server and her lying about it. But we wouldn't be hearing about how people in her campaign talked to Russian ambassadors.
Mr B, like others I feel there is something wrong in your arguments. The statement above seems out of balance, you seem to be saying that, "Both sides have comitted acts worthy of scrutiny," but, at the same time, implying the actions against Trump are wrong because he was the wrong person. If he had lost then, to the pro Trump factions, Clinton would have been, "the wrong person."

As you say, "It's all bullshit," but that takes all the purpose out of what you seem to be claiming. If you sought the kind of "partisan neutrality" that last statement implies you have not exactly succeeded in my perception.

Unfortunately the situation impinges on the lives of everyone on the planet to some degree, actually or potentially, so that is important bullshit. And I am as disgusted with it as you seem to be. Can't really decide which bullshit I want to smear on as warpaint - just hoping that, somehow, common sense wins. But, I doubt that it will. Politics trumps wisdom.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 08, 2017, 04:27:56 PM
I've seen this happen a few times now, where Mr. B will avoid criticism of Trump related things, by trying to throw a third party into the mix (specifically Hillary). This is not something we're unfamiliar with, this is the same avoidance tactic used by religious apologists quite often. In all cases it's not truth seeking behavior.

Let's say that Hillary is the worst. Literally the worst. Maybe she would have been 20 Hitlers combined. That doesn't excuse Trump in any way. It has fuck all to do with Trump, and is bullshit to bring it up. So bringing up Hillary doesn't matter even in the worst case scenario.

I mean, all these Conservative people were going around saying, "Trump is president, get over it, snowflake." But they are the ones that can't stop talking about Hillary or Obama. There must be something to it, it feels like they are trying their best to convince themselves that Trump might not be great, but he was the better option. It's sad really, they must on some level understand that they done fucked up, otherwise why haven't they moved on and accepted that Trump is the president now?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on March 08, 2017, 05:16:30 PM
I've seen this happen a few times now, where Mr. B will avoid criticism of Trump related things, by trying to throw a third party into the mix (specifically Hillary). This is not something we're unfamiliar with, this is the same avoidance tactic used by religious apologists quite often. In all cases it's not truth seeking behavior.

Let's say that Hillary is the worst. Literally the worst. Maybe she would have been 20 Hitlers combined. That doesn't excuse Trump in any way. It has fuck all to do with Trump, and is bullshit to bring it up. So bringing up Hillary doesn't matter even in the worst case scenario.

I mean, all these Conservative people were going around saying, "Trump is president, get over it, snowflake." But they are the ones that can't stop talking about Hillary or Obama. There must be something to it, it feels like they are trying their best to convince themselves that Trump might not be great, but he was the better option. It's sad really, they must on some level understand that they done fucked up, otherwise why haven't they moved on and accepted that Trump is the president now?

I think I see what you're saying. It's like "we are attacking trump. Why? I dunno but Hillary was pretty bad"
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 08, 2017, 05:28:04 PM
I've seen this happen a few times now, where Mr. B will avoid criticism of Trump related things, by trying to throw a third party into the mix (specifically Hillary). This is not something we're unfamiliar with, this is the same avoidance tactic used by religious apologists quite often. In all cases it's not truth seeking behavior.

Let's say that Hillary is the worst. Literally the worst. Maybe she would have been 20 Hitlers combined. That doesn't excuse Trump in any way. It has fuck all to do with Trump, and is bullshit to bring it up. So bringing up Hillary doesn't matter even in the worst case scenario.

I mean, all these Conservative people were going around saying, "Trump is president, get over it, snowflake." But they are the ones that can't stop talking about Hillary or Obama. There must be something to it, it feels like they are trying their best to convince themselves that Trump might not be great, but he was the better option. It's sad really, they must on some level understand that they done fucked up, otherwise why haven't they moved on and accepted that Trump is the president now?

I think I see what you're saying. It's like "we are attacking trump. Why? I dunno but Hillary was pretty bad"
It doesn't even make sense when you compare them though. Trump was and is worse than Hillary. But it doesn't matter any more.

It's like they had a choice between a red clunker truck that barely runs (but golfs a lot), and decently running blue sedan, and they chose the clunker, and are now like, "yeah but that other one was blue."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 08, 2017, 08:22:02 PM
I've seen this happen a few times now, where Mr. B will avoid criticism of Trump related things, by trying to throw a third party into the mix (specifically Hillary). This is not something we're unfamiliar with, this is the same avoidance tactic used by religious apologists quite often. In all cases it's not truth seeking behavior.

Let's say that Hillary is the worst. Literally the worst. Maybe she would have been 20 Hitlers combined. That doesn't excuse Trump in any way. It has fuck all to do with Trump, and is bullshit to bring it up. So bringing up Hillary doesn't matter even in the worst case scenario.

I mean, all these Conservative people were going around saying, "Trump is president, get over it, snowflake." But they are the ones that can't stop talking about Hillary or Obama. There must be something to it, it feels like they are trying their best to convince themselves that Trump might not be great, but he was the better option. It's sad really, they must on some level understand that they done fucked up, otherwise why haven't they moved on and accepted that Trump is the president now?

I think I see what you're saying. It's like "we are attacking trump. Why? I dunno but Hillary was pretty bad"
It doesn't even make sense when you compare them though. Trump was and is worse than Hillary. But it doesn't matter any more.

It's like they had a choice between a red clunker truck that barely runs (but golfs a lot), and decently running blue sedan, and they chose the clunker, and are now like, "yeah but that other one was blue."

Yup, you maybe choose a person in a vote for how they compare with another and how well their ideas resonate with yours. But you judge a person as  by their personal qualities and behaviour.

If you choose the wrong person and are unwilling to judge your choice objectively  . . . Well, I suppose we all have to try to decide the less bad of two bad choices. But, still call the shovel a shovel when it is shifting shit.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on March 09, 2017, 08:00:29 AM
One of my favorite bands of all time is R.E.M. I would count them in my top five. Lately, with all the flap about Jeff Sessions and Trump and the Trump campaign vs. Russians. I am reminded of this classic (to me at least)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-goz4q1qo)

Seems, the Democratic Party is exhuming McCarthy. And here I was under the impression that they were the rational adults in the room.

Please, don't get me wrong. I am attacking them from the left because I was so close to becoming a True BelieverTM in the DNC.

I am disappoint because I was fairly excited about finally being able to identify with a party brand but then Trump got elected and now this hypocritical bullshit.

Now, back to square one.

I'm damn near declaring anarchy.
Why do you have to put political bullshit (along with a clear false equivalence between McCarthyism and what is going on now), in a Music thread?

Politics is a well known touchy subject, and that is not the thread for touchy subjects. There is a whole Politics forum for you put this in where you can get a useful discussion out of it. Like someone could point out how dragging hundreds of people through the mud for something that shouldn't have been considered bad in the first place, is far different than trying to find out if the President colluded with a foreign government.

So I'm putting this response here, because I think this is where it belongs.

Can we try refrain from using hyperbolic terminology? Unless it's a joke or we're making fun of people who tend to over use hyperbolic terminology. Can we try to compare things accurately? Because shit like this doesn't help to get at the truth it helps to conceal truth.

I agree and have split the post into its own thread.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 09, 2017, 09:46:05 PM
Quote
Scott Pruitt, Donald Trump’s head of the US Environmental Protection Agency, has dismissed a basic scientific understanding of climate change by denying that carbon dioxide emissions are a primary cause of global warming.

Pruitt said on Thursday that he did not believe that the release of CO2, a heat-trapping gas, was pushing global temperatures upwards.

“I think that measuring with precision human activity on the climate is something very challenging to do and there’s tremendous disagreement about the degree of impact, so no, I would not agree that it’s a primary contributor to the global warming that we see,” he told CNBC.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/09/epa-scott-pruitt-carbon-dioxide-global-warming-climate-change

So, there, the pre-Pruitt EPA, NASA, NOAA and the regiments of global climate scientists are all confused and the handful, or three, of the mates of those supported Trump et al are right. Politics and ideology (not to mention money and greed) rule, OK.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 11, 2017, 02:00:01 PM
You may not have heard in the UK, but it's been public knowledge for a while that Pruitt took materials supplied to him by oil and energy companies and lobbies then sent them on to the EPA under his own name (source (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/02/22/Emails-reveal-new-EPA-chief-Pruitt-worked-closely-with-oil-gas-firms/4971487790105/)). Devon Energy, one of the oil companies, was a top contributor to the Republican Attorneys General Association during the time that Pruitt was its chairman (source (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/us/politics/scott-pruitt-environmental-protection-agency.html)).
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 11, 2017, 02:54:33 PM
You may not have heard in the UK, but it's been public knowledge for a while that Pruitt took materials supplied to him by oil and energy companies and lobbies then sent them on to the EPA under his own name (source (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/02/22/Emails-reveal-new-EPA-chief-Pruitt-worked-closely-with-oil-gas-firms/4971487790105/)). Devon Energy, one of the oil companies, was a top contributor to the Republican Attorneys General Association during the time that Pruitt was its chairman (source (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/us/politics/scott-pruitt-environmental-protection-agency.html)).

Well, well, what (not) a surprise.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 11, 2017, 05:37:10 PM
The guilt is not so much proclaimed as it is implied. The implication is that the Russians stole the election from Hillary therefor, anyone on Trump's team who spoke to any Russian at any time in the past 20 years is culpable for Hillary's loss.

There is evidence that Russian intelligence agencies hacked the email system of the DNC and John Podesta's Gmail account, then (possibly through an intermediary) gave the stolen emails to Wikileaks, who proceeded to gradually put the content of the hacked emails before the public. Their strategy was clear: keep the negative stories about the Clinton campaign and the DNC in the public eye throughout the later stages of the presidential campaign. That strategy was effective, and it seems likely that it worked to turn voters away from Clinton. "Stealing the election" is your phrase. I'm unaware of any mainstream media sources who've asserted that the Russians "stole the election." Rather they've reported on the Russian efforts to affect the outcome of the election.

If there was collusion between Russians and members of the Trump campaign, would you rather we never know about it? It has been admitted now that the Trump campaign was responsible for getting the language in the Republican platform regarding US aid to Ukraine changed to be less bothersome to the Russians. Yet Trump and members of his campaign lied repeatedly about that, saying that they had no involvement whatsoever in the change in language (source (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/the-untruths-of-president-trump-are-piling-up/518490/)).

Why all the lying if this was a completely innocent effort by Trump and his team? It may be that Trump is a compulsive liar who instructs members of his staff to promote his lies. On the other hand, it may be that he actually is beholden to the Russians in some way. You may not care one way or another, but it seems entirely within the remit of the press to attempt to discover the truth of the matter. Trump bleating about "McCarthyism" shouldn't deter them.

As for some impulsive Democrats talking about impeachment, it's not as if there was nothing like that happening on the Republican side from the early days of Obama's presidency. There are hotheads on both sides--so what?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/01/hillary-clinton/hillary-clintons-wrong-claim-fbi-director-comey-ca/

Comey testified under oath that Hillary did not tell the truth regarding her handling of classified emails.

The GOP asked the Justice Department to look into it.

Quote
The Justice Department declined to comment on the request.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/us/politics/gop-seeks-criminal-inquiry-of-hillary-clintons-testimony-to-congress.html?_r=0

I read both of your sources, but I didn't see where Comey testified under oath that Clinton didn't tell the truth regarding her handling of emails. Please quote the relevant passage.

Comey didn't recommend bringing her up on charges because he believed she may have been ignorant of the laws.

I don't recall Comey saying Clinton may have been ignorant of the law, either. Can you please cite a source and quote the passage?

I am not aware of any specific slanders. The general slander is that anyone associated with Trump is a piece of shit. At least, that's the impression I get from the general public. There are all kinds of reasons for them being pieces of shit but the one that is the most prominent today is whether or not they communicated with Russians during the election. That's the one that will cause people to lose their job. Or possibly worse.

As far as I can tell, you're speculating when you say that people will lose their jobs because they were communicating with Russians during the election. It's a known fact that several people in Trump's campaign and transition staff did communicate or meet with Russians, including his son-in-law Jared Kushner, who is now comfortably ensconced in the White House as one of Trump's top advisors. What may cause people to lose their jobs is lying under oath. It's perfectly clear that Trump does not fire people for lying, particularly when their lies corroborate his.

And again, what is the standard we want to set with this? Should it be officially illegal for anyone working in a campaign to communicate with foreign agents? To claim that no one from the Hillary campaign spoke to anyone from Russia is to deny reality.

You have yet to provide any evidence or support for the idea that people are suggesting it should be illegal for campaign staff to communicate with members of foreign governments. Your term "foreign agents" is vague. If you're referring to members of foreign intelligence services, then such communications certainly deserve scrutiny, especially if the government employing them considers itself an adversary of the United States. There is no doubt that Russia qualifies.

The reason the Trump people are being scrutinized is because Trump wasn't supposed to win. If Hillary had won, all we would be hearing about would be Benghazi and her illegal server and her lying about it. But we wouldn't be hearing about how people in her campaign talked to Russian ambassadors.

It's all bullshit.

Regarding the Clinton story fading away, I think that it has a lot to do with the fact that it was almost entirely a political propaganda story in the first place (particularly BENGHAZI !!! (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/another-republican-admits-benghazi-panel-political)). There was very little actual substance to any of it, and Comey plainly stated that the FBI would not submit anything regarding the email server for prosecution. Trump insisted that he'd push to "lock her up!!!" once he was elected, but that was one of the first things he walked back as soon as he was elected. I expect that was because he was told that there was no political gain to be had from pursuing a prosecution that could very well fail.

Regarding the Trump administration/Russia issue, I refer you to the first part of my response above. Even if Trump had lost, I think it's rather unlikely that the questions about the involvement of Russian intelligence agencies in the election would have promptly died, and the possibility of collusion by members of Trump's campaign staff are part of the story. I don't know if you think that this is a minor matter that should ignored by the media and the US government, but if you do, I strongly disagree. Nor do I agree that it's "all bullshit."




Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 11, 2017, 07:37:20 PM
Regarding the Russian connection, via the Palmer Report: "Russian intel officer flew in for Republican Convention to oversee Donald Trump’s platform change." (https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/russian-intel-officer-flew-in-for-gop-convention-to-oversee-donald-trumps-platform-change/1859/) I think Palmer overstates things somewhat. I didn't watch the Maddow show that he's talking about so I cannot comment on that.

Quote
Yesterday we brought you yet another name that now must be added to the list of alleged Trump-Russia conspirators: Konstantin Kilimnik. Politico has exposed (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-russia-manafort-235850) that Kilimnik had flown in for the Republican National Convention and then bragged about his role in getting the GOP party platform changed in Russia’s favor. But now Rachel Maddow has pieced together that Kilimnik was a Russian intel officer.

Maddow made the connection during her Thursday evening MSNBC program, and oddly enough, she did so by connecting Politico’s latest reporting with an older (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-russia-manafort-235850) Politico report on Kilimnik. In a separate development this week, two former Donald Trump campaign aides, Carter Page and J.D. Gordon, are now both asserting (https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/carter-page-fires-back-says-donald-trump-behind-russia-conspiracy-gop-convention/1781/) that it was Donald Trump himself who personally pushed them to make the GOP platform change.

[Continues . . . (https://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/russian-intel-officer-flew-in-for-gop-convention-to-oversee-donald-trumps-platform-change/1859/)]

The second link to Politico that Palmer used is a repeat of the first, which appears to be an error on Palmer's part. From the context it is clear that he's actually referring to "Manafort’s man in Kiev" (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/paul-manafort-ukraine-kiev-russia-konstantin-kilimnik-227181). In that Politico story, we learn that Kilimnik seems to have put it about that he worked for GRU (Russian military intelligence). There is no solid confirmation of that information but I'm not sure how one would go about determining his actual position, if any, with GRU. Almost certainly a direct question to them would get a "can neither confirm nor deny" response, at best.

If Kilimnik was in GRU, then it's interesting, since GRU was one of the agencies believed to have been involved in hacking the DNC and Podesta. As the Politico story puts it:

Quote
“I always understood that he was in the Russian Army intelligence for a couple years,” said an international political consultant, who has worked with Kilimnik, and who stressed that, at the time, all Russian men were required to serve in the military. But the consultant added, “I don’t think it was as big a deal as people made it out to be.”

Bill Browder, an American-born investor whose business in Russia led to him being blacklisted by Putin’s regime as a national security threat, differed. “It’s not like you can say, 'I used to work for [Russian intelligence].' It’s a permanent affiliation. There is no such thing as a former [Russian intelligence] officer.”
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 11, 2017, 08:44:35 PM
My gut feeling about this story is that there was probably no active collusion by Trump himself. I can't rule out a possibility that Manafort and others may be cozier with Russian interests than anybody would want in people so close to the president of the US. It looks to me like Putin simply has a useful idiot (https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-12-16/former-cia-chief-calls-trump-moscow-s-useful-idiot) in Trump.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 11, 2017, 08:59:14 PM
My gut feeling about this story is that there was probably no active collusion by Trump himself. I can't rule out a possibility that Manafort and others may be cozier with Russian interests than anybody would want in people so close to the president of the US. It looks to me like Putin simply has a useful idiot (https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-12-16/former-cia-chief-calls-trump-moscow-s-useful-idiot) in Trump.
I have long had tge feeling, unless Trump or his advisers have well hidden depths and strengths in international affairs, that Trump will end up as a puppet.

Putin will dangle nice juicy deals in front of him (or his companies) that will contain the means of playing him like a puppet. I don't think Trump can touch Putin in the crafty department.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on March 11, 2017, 09:17:34 PM
I just wonder why everyone is so angry about the successful hacking of the Democratic party by Russian hackers, while at the same time the CIA and NSA are doing hacking stuff, all over the world,  that is far more evil.

BTW I blame the success of Russians hackers on a combination stupidity, incompetence, arrogance and a lack of responsibility of the Democrats.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 11, 2017, 11:04:42 PM
I just wonder why everyone is so angry about the successful hacking of the Democratic party by Russian hackers, while at the same time the CIA and NSA are doing hacking stuff, all over the world,  that is far more evil.

BTW I blame the success of Russians hackers on a combination stupidity, incompetence, arrogance and a lack of responsibility of the Democrats.

The history of the US meddling in the internal politics of other nations (both blatant and covert) is long and ugly, there is no doubt about that (http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-coup-machine-destroying-democracy-1953). There is little reason to doubt that the CIA has had its fingers in the internal politics of several countries around the world in the recent past. Ronald Reagan was pleased to mouth his platitude about the United States being a "shining city on a hill," (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_upon_a_Hill) but he was all too willing to support murderous terrorists in Nicaragua to further his political ends. There are plenty of other examples. Skipping over US involvement with the coup in Chile that installed the vile dictator Pinochet, we can look at the so-called "Banana Wars" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars) of the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

The government of the US has never shied away from glaring hypocrisy when it comes to its relations with the rest of the world, and this is no different. That doesn't mean that citizens of the United States are disallowed from being mightily displeased about Putin using the Russian intelligence agencies to meddle in the country's political process.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on March 12, 2017, 02:16:38 AM
I don't think Trump can touch Putin in the crafty department.

I agree without reservation. Trump is a bombastic ignoramus while Putin is a polished, intelligent, and extremely successful thug with decades of experience.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 13, 2017, 02:21:54 PM
I just wonder why everyone is so angry about the successful hacking of the Democratic party by Russian hackers, while at the same time the CIA and NSA are doing hacking stuff, all over the world,  that is far more evil.
Can't I be mad about both? I'm also mad about the spying on US citizens. Turns out, I can be mad about a lot of things at one time. Do you think people should only be mad at the worst thing and just fine with everything else?

Quote from: Tom62
BTW I blame the success of Russians hackers on a combination stupidity, incompetence, arrogance and a lack of responsibility of the Democrats.
Given enough time, everything can be hacked. A mark with those things can make it easier, but nothing is completely secure. To blame the victim of a hack is, I think, a shitty thing to do. Just like I think it's a shitty thing to do to blame the victim of a mugging instead of the mugger.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on March 13, 2017, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: Tom62
BTW I blame the success of Russians hackers on a combination stupidity, incompetence, arrogance and a lack of responsibility of the Democrats.
Given enough time, everything can be hacked. A mark with those things can make it easier, but nothing is completely secure. To blame the victim of a hack is, I think, a shitty thing to do. Just like I think it's a shitty thing to do to blame the victim of a mugging instead of the mugger.

Normally I would agree, but what happened at the DNC was sheer incompetence from both the DNC IT staff as the FBI.

Quote from: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/14/dnc-hillary-clinton-emails-hacked-russia-aide-typo-investigation-finds
In the run-up to the election, the US Democratic National Committee (DNC) received numerous phishing emails, the paper reported on Tuesday. One of them was also sent to John Podesta, the chairman of Hillary Clinton’s campaign. An aide, Charles Delavan, spotted the message sent to Podesta’s private account. It asked Podesta to change his password.

Delavan realised the email was a phishing attack and forwarded it to a computer technician. However, he made a typo, writing: “This is a legitimate email.” He added: “John needs to change his password immediately.”

The blunder gave Kremlin hackers access to about 60,000 emails in Podesta’s private Gmail account. According to US intelligence officials, Moscow then gave the email cache to WikiLeaks. The website released them in October, and the email scandal dominated the news cycle and was exploited by Trump.

The FBI had known for some time that Russia was making a wide-ranging and systematic attempt to hack US political institutions including the White House and the State Department, the paper reported. In September 2015 the FBI discovered that a cyber-espionage team linked to the Russian government had penetrated the DNC.

But instead of sending a top-level delegation and raising the alarm, the FBI got a single special agent to make a phone call. The agent, Adrian Hawkins, rang the DNC and was put through to the IT helpdesk. He told the tech-support contractor on duty, Yared Tamene, that a group called “the Dukes” had hacked the DNC’s computer networks.

According to the paper(New York Times), Tamene thought Hawkins’s message might have been a prank call. He googled “Dukes” but found nothing. He then failed to alert senior staff after his cursory search of the DNC’s computer system logs revealed no obvious sign of an intrusion.

Hawkins rang back repeatedly over the next few weeks. Tamene, however, did not respond. “I did not return his calls, as I had nothing to report,” he wrote in a memo seen by the New York Times.

The FBI’s laid-back approach meant that Russian hackers were able to roam inside the DNC’s computer systems for almost seven months, before Democratic officials finally realised the gravity of the attack and brought in external cybersecurity experts.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 13, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
Quote from: Tom62
BTW I blame the success of Russians hackers on a combination stupidity, incompetence, arrogance and a lack of responsibility of the Democrats.
Given enough time, everything can be hacked. A mark with those things can make it easier, but nothing is completely secure. To blame the victim of a hack is, I think, a shitty thing to do. Just like I think it's a shitty thing to do to blame the victim of a mugging instead of the mugger.

Normally I would agree, but what happened at the DNC was sheer incompetence from both the DNC IT staff as the FBI.

Yes, most things can trace back to incompetence. Hindsight being 20/20, if people just did things right, then there wouldn't have been a problem. While I agree it was a big mistake that should never have happened because the people should have been trained and they should have had better technical staff... but for non-technical people, it's tough to tell what a good technical person looks like (as far as resume and work experience and even at the current job, not cool leather jackets, skateboards, and drinking coke).

Even knowing how easy it was to get into the DNC, blaming the victim is still wrong. I'm a strong advocate for security (more so with more important data), but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

Blaming the victim, sets a shitty precedent.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2017, 05:54:39 PM
Trump is a Russian agent, at least from the perspective of the Russians. They are using him to disrupt American Democracy and make Putin  the most powerful person in the world. An actual Russian spy could not have done a better job.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 13, 2017, 06:58:11 PM
Davin wrote:
Quote
... but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

I think I can see an elrment of logic there where the aggressor is always "at fault" in, say,  child abuse by a priest, being coshed from behind in a street mugging etc, in places where one might have a right to expect safety. In the world of politics, or in commerce, the naïve person who does not take every possible opportunity to ensure security of sensitive information, who does not react appropriately to an advised threat, is incompetent.

They are at least culpable in enabling the breach in security in my view. Those who selected them for the job are also culpable to a degree - like chosing a seven stone deaf asthmatic for a body guard (my appologies to seven stone deaf asthmatics for using them as an example). As I have said before, if you go into any dangerous situation without sufficient knowledge and without taking adequate safeguards you have no right to cry, "Foul," if you suffer injury or damage. And politics is a dangerous game that potentially threatens every individual on Earth - and Earth itself.

I notice that a group has been splintered off GCHQ here in the UK to instruct the political parties in cyber security, bit late but better than nothing at all. I wonder who they will have as students - senior politicians or IT staff? Should be both. To my mind no-one should be employed in that sort of position without graduating from a comprehensive anti-hacking course run by competent specialists, in adition to normal training.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 13, 2017, 07:13:29 PM
Davin wrote:
Quote
... but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

I think I can see an elrment of logic there where the aggressor is always "at fault" in, say,  child abuse by a priest, being coshed from behind in a street mugging etc, in places where one might have a right to expect safety. In the world of politics, or in commerce, the naïve person who does not take every possible opportunity to ensure security of sensitive information, who does not react appropriately to an advised threat, is incompetent. [...]
I'm not arguing those responsible for the security should not hold some blame for a breach, I'm arguing against the idea of blaming the victim for an attack (unless the victim went around saying, "come at me, bro!").

We are all hackable. No one is safe from hacking. All we can do is make it more difficult, but we can't prevent it. Those involved with this one made it easy. However, do you think the Russian hackers would have stopped if this one method didn't work? I don't think they would, I think the Russian hackers would have kept going until they succeeded. Do you think this was the first and only attack that the Russian hackers attempted? I highly doubt it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 14, 2017, 12:00:13 PM
Davin wrote:
Quote
... but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

I think I can see an elrment of logic there where the aggressor is always "at fault" in, say,  child abuse by a priest, being coshed from behind in a street mugging etc, in places where one might have a right to expect safety. In the world of politics, or in commerce, the naïve person who does not take every possible opportunity to ensure security of sensitive information, who does not react appropriately to an advised threat, is incompetent. [...]
I'm not arguing those responsible for the security should not hold some blame for a breach, I'm arguing against the idea of blaming the victim for an attack (unless the victim went around saying, "come at me, bro!").

We are all hackable. No one is safe from hacking. All we can do is make it more difficult, but we can't prevent it. Those involved with this one made it easy. However, do you think the Russian hackers would have stopped if this one method didn't work? I don't think they would, I think the Russian hackers would have kept going until they succeeded. Do you think this was the first and only attack that the Russian hackers attempted? I highly doubt it.

Not really the place for this but...

Humans have been attracted to the idea of attacking the defences of others, for reasons from defeating them in war through pecunary gain and hatred to simple schardenfreude, since at least the begining of recorded history, but it seems that sone simply do not learn. So, if they are not to "blame" in your understanding of the term then, if they are in a position to safeguard important (to whoever) data they are inadequate for or incompetent in their job and need to be replaced. Retraining in the same field will probably not help them because they have the wrong mindset to start with.

Go back to manual typewriters and paper memos for the really important stuff? There was a story that the Russians did just that. But you might need lots of high security vaults for storage . . .

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 14, 2017, 02:16:51 PM
Davin wrote:
Quote
... but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

I think I can see an elrment of logic there where the aggressor is always "at fault" in, say,  child abuse by a priest, being coshed from behind in a street mugging etc, in places where one might have a right to expect safety. In the world of politics, or in commerce, the naïve person who does not take every possible opportunity to ensure security of sensitive information, who does not react appropriately to an advised threat, is incompetent. [...]
I'm not arguing those responsible for the security should not hold some blame for a breach, I'm arguing against the idea of blaming the victim for an attack (unless the victim went around saying, "come at me, bro!").

We are all hackable. No one is safe from hacking. All we can do is make it more difficult, but we can't prevent it. Those involved with this one made it easy. However, do you think the Russian hackers would have stopped if this one method didn't work? I don't think they would, I think the Russian hackers would have kept going until they succeeded. Do you think this was the first and only attack that the Russian hackers attempted? I highly doubt it.

Not really the place for this but...

Humans have been attracted to the idea of attacking the defences of others, for reasons from defeating them in war through pecunary gain and hatred to simple schardenfreude, since at least the begining of recorded history, but it seems that sone simply do not learn. So, if they are not to "blame" in your understanding of the term then, if they are in a position to safeguard important (to whoever) data they are inadequate for or incompetent in their job and need to be replaced. Retraining in the same field will probably not help them because they have the wrong mindset to start with.

Go back to manual typewriters and paper memos for the really important stuff? There was a story that the Russians did just that. But you might need lots of high security vaults for storage . . .
Are you seriously presenting the, "well people have urges, you can't blame them for acting on them" argument?

Because my answer is: fuck yes we can blame them for acting on their urges. Always. You set are setting a shitty precedent by saying otherwise.

If someone forgot to lock their door one day, and their house gets broken into, do you blame them for getting robbed because they are incompetent? Or, like me, do you blame the thieves?

I get the urge to urinate from time to time, that is an undeniable need. However I don't pee on other people and them blame them for it while saying, "humans have a long history of needing to pee..."

Again. Yes, they are in a position of being responsible for safe guarding data. But again, all systems, no matter how competent those responsible for security are, are vulnerable to being hacked. How do you think security vulnerabilities get there? The answer is: the vulnerabilities already there, someone finds it and exploits it. If they are a good person, they'll inform the developer of the thing they found a hole. Some people are hired by the company that develops the software to try to find exploits. If they are a bad person, they will try to exploit it themselves and/or sell it off to others. On your devices, there exists multiple vulnerabilities, people just haven't found them yet.

Also again, while I agree that in this case they made it easier and fell victim to classic social engineering techniques, I doubt that was the first attempt nor would it have been the last attempt if that one didn't work. I would replace them too. But it's the attacker's that get the blame for the attack.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 14, 2017, 02:32:55 PM
Davin wrote:
Quote
... but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

I think I can see an elrment of logic there where the aggressor is always "at fault" in, say,  child abuse by a priest, being coshed from behind in a street mugging etc, in places where one might have a right to expect safety. In the world of politics, or in commerce, the naïve person who does not take every possible opportunity to ensure security of sensitive information, who does not react appropriately to an advised threat, is incompetent. [...]
I'm not arguing those responsible for the security should not hold some blame for a breach, I'm arguing against the idea of blaming the victim for an attack (unless the victim went around saying, "come at me, bro!").

We are all hackable. No one is safe from hacking. All we can do is make it more difficult, but we can't prevent it. Those involved with this one made it easy. However, do you think the Russian hackers would have stopped if this one method didn't work? I don't think they would, I think the Russian hackers would have kept going until they succeeded. Do you think this was the first and only attack that the Russian hackers attempted? I highly doubt it.

Not really the place for this but...

Humans have been attracted to the idea of attacking the defences of others, for reasons from defeating them in war through pecunary gain and hatred to simple schardenfreude, since at least the begining of recorded history, but it seems that sone simply do not learn. So, if they are not to "blame" in your understanding of the term then, if they are in a position to safeguard important (to whoever) data they are inadequate for or incompetent in their job and need to be replaced. Retraining in the same field will probably not help them because they have the wrong mindset to start with.

Go back to manual typewriters and paper memos for the really important stuff? There was a story that the Russians did just that. But you might need lots of high security vaults for storage . . .
Are you seriously presenting the, "well people have urges, you can't blame them for acting on them" argument?

Because my answer is: fuck yes we can blame them for acting on their urges. Always. You set are setting a shitty precedent by saying otherwise.

If someone forgot to lock their door one day, and their house gets broken into, do you blame them for getting robbed because they are incompetent? Or, like me, do you blame the thieves?

I get the urge to urinate from time to time, that is an undeniable need. However I don't pee on other people and them blame them for it while saying, "humans have a long history of needing to pee..."

Again. Yes, they are in a position of being responsible for safe guarding data. But again, all systems, no matter how competent those responsible for security are, are vulnerable to being hacked. How do you think security vulnerabilities get there? The answer is: the vulnerabilities already there, someone finds it and exploits it. If they are a good person, they'll inform the developer of the thing they found a hole. Some people are hired by the company that develops the software to try to find exploits. If they are a bad person, they will try to exploit it themselves and/or sell it off to others. On your devices, there exists multiple vulnerabilities, people just haven't found them yet.

Also again, while I agree that in this case they made it easier and fell victim to classic social engineering techniques, I doubt that was the first attempt nor would it have been the last attempt if that one didn't work. I would replace them too. But it's the attacker's that get the blame for the attack.

OK, I think we are arguing as much about semantics as anything else. I was not talking about "urges" but about humzn psyco-types. But, yes, I suppose if you are a birn sucker then it is not your fsult.

Let's give this thread back to the Trumpian depths. Start another thread if you want to carry the debate on.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 14, 2017, 02:39:17 PM
Trump is a Russian agent, at least from the perspective of the Russians. They are using him to disrupt American Democracy and make Putin  the most powerful person in the world. An actual Russian spy could not have done a better job.
And we had a confirmed and confessed Turkish foreign agent sitting in on security briefings. Given that, I'm finding it difficult to doubt that Trump and others are Russian agents. I'd feel better with a bi-partisan investigation.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 14, 2017, 02:57:54 PM
Are you seriously presenting the, "well people have urges, you can't blame them for acting on them" argument?

Because my answer is: fuck yes we can blame them for acting on their urges. Always. You set are setting a shitty precedent by saying otherwise.

If someone forgot to lock their door one day, and their house gets broken into, do you blame them for getting robbed because they are incompetent? Or, like me, do you blame the thieves?

I get the urge to urinate from time to time, that is an undeniable need. However I don't pee on other people and them blame them for it while saying, "humans have a long history of needing to pee..."

Again. Yes, they are in a position of being responsible for safe guarding data. But again, all systems, no matter how competent those responsible for security are, are vulnerable to being hacked. How do you think security vulnerabilities get there? The answer is: the vulnerabilities already there, someone finds it and exploits it. If they are a good person, they'll inform the developer of the thing they found a hole. Some people are hired by the company that develops the software to try to find exploits. If they are a bad person, they will try to exploit it themselves and/or sell it off to others. On your devices, there exists multiple vulnerabilities, people just haven't found them yet.

Also again, while I agree that in this case they made it easier and fell victim to classic social engineering techniques, I doubt that was the first attempt nor would it have been the last attempt if that one didn't work. I would replace them too. But it's the attacker's that get the blame for the attack.

OK, I think we are arguing as much about semantics as anything else. I was not talking about "urges" but about humzn psyco-types. But, yes, I suppose if you are a birn sucker then it is not your fsult.

Let's give this thread back to the Trumpian depths. Start another thread if you want to carry the debate on.
I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing about concepts. You are arguing semantics, your not talking about "urges," just people that are subject to their strong impulses... Which are also known as "urges." But then you and blame the victim again by calling them a "born sucker." What a judgment of someone using very little information about them. I'm sure you're not a sucker because you've never made a mistake in your life. If you make a mistake that someone takes advantage of, are you going to call yourself a "born sucker" and not blame the attacker for attacking you?

Off topic conversations happen all the time, at least this one is still close to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on March 14, 2017, 08:24:46 PM
Yes, most things can trace back to incompetence. Hindsight being 20/20, if people just did things right, then there wouldn't have been a problem. While I agree it was a big mistake that should never have happened because the people should have been trained and they should have had better technical staff... but for non-technical people, it's tough to tell what a good technical person looks like (as far as resume and work experience and even at the current job, not cool leather jackets, skateboards, and drinking coke).

Even knowing how easy it was to get into the DNC, blaming the victim is still wrong. I'm a strong advocate for security (more so with more important data), but even if someone is lax with their security, it's not their fault if someone attacks them. It's the aggressor's fault.

Blaming the victim, sets a shitty precedent.

The hack itself could perhaps not have been avoided, because phishing mails can look quite convincing. I'm not really blaming the DNC for the hack itself. However, the way it was dealt with, is a completely different story. The Russians where stealing stuff for almost 7 months, before the DNC "woke up". Some "Schadenfreude"is therefore justified.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on March 15, 2017, 07:25:07 PM
Some "Schadenfreude"is therefore justified.

Yeah, and now we have a demagogue in place who's planning to pull back from international organizations like NATO and let Russia run rampant. Obama, you may recall, was willing to at least acknowledge that history of interference and chart a different path forward.  Trump's election was a rejection of that saner thinking. I hope that's worth your temporary schadenfreude, because it's going to hurt a lot of people around the world, including in Germany.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 02, 2017, 01:54:27 PM
There's a new conspiracy theory in a prog on BBC right now, that The Trump, just maybe, has a "special relationship" with arch conspiracy theorist Alex Jones of InfoWars.

Seems they might possibly have cosy chats on the phone, swapping ideas . . .

The Trump Shite House is keeping quiet on the matter.

[This is embedded in a program regarding Jones' behaviour, and the resulting actions of his mindless followers, seriously affecting the lives of the families involved in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings and whether Trump will act on this.]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 06, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
So, is Bannon in or out?

Seems he was dropped from the NSC "principals committee", the cabinet level, but attended its neeting the same dsy. Was he just a minder for Flynn? Or is this another Trump Shite House cock-up?
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/06/bannon-attended-national-security-council-meeting-after-his-removal.html

Now another Rep, Devin Nunes, has stepped from the House investigation into alleged Russian involvement in the election after mutterings that he was a bit too close to Trump. He may now have to answer questions about his ethics.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/06/politics/devin-nunes-stepping-aside-russia-intelligence-committee/

The hole just gets deeper and derper.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 06, 2017, 05:38:22 PM
Bannon is still in the White House but off of the Security Council.

The hole just gets deeper and derper.

Might have been a typo, but I think that "derper" applies.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 06, 2017, 05:46:43 PM
^  :grin:

Later: actually I did not know of the noun "derp". Now I have looked it up it certainly seems to be a case of true serendifity.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on April 07, 2017, 12:33:42 AM
Speaking of 'derp': "De-Derping the 'Un-Masking' Story" | Talking Points Memo (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/de-derping-the-un-masking-story)

Quote
Why did Cohen-Watnick and Michael Ellis, a junior lawyer who used to work for Chairman Nunes, call Nunes late in the evening and have him rush over to the White House to see the 'smoking gun' information that supposedly validated President Trump's 'Obama wiretapping' tweets? Remember, this overnight cloak and dagger stunt was followed the next day by Nunes going and 'briefing' President Trump about the new information.

So the White House briefs Nunes in the middle of the night and then Nunes returns to the White House in the morning to brief Trump?

That never made sense.

But it makes perfect sense if Cohen-Watnick (Mike Flynn's protege, remember) got shut down by McGahn and then decided to backchannel his findings to Trump supporters on the Hill in order to do an end run around his bosses. It also explains why Nunes had to see the documents at the White House (likely at Ellis's or Cohen-Watnick's desk) rather than on Capitol Hill or at a relevant intelligence agency. Showing him the material anywhere else would have required letting others know what they were doing. Of course, it also explains why Nunes would need to brief Trump: because Cohen-Watnick probably wasn't allowed to do so directly.

This is, I grant, informed speculation. But it explains pretty much all the facts and mysteries about the Nunes overnight caper, his continuing inability to explain it in any clear or consistent way and his eventual refusal to discuss it with anyone else on his Committee.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 12, 2017, 05:36:33 PM
Looks like Spicer is now the full public face of Trump Shite House incompetence. His incompetence peaked when he effectively said that Hitler had not used poisin gas against his own people. So there were no German Jews in the death camps? The Jews were not really Germans?

His rambling "appology" was not what one expects of a competent media secretary and only exposed more of his incompetence. He said that he "screwed up" and let Trump down, not for the first time though. Press secretaries should never get to the point of taking the brakes off their mouths with their brain in neutral.

As was said on the BBC Trump delights in outraging those who will never vote for him - he and his team seem to be doing a grand job of outraging some of his previous supporter groups.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 04, 2017, 09:45:09 PM
I remember when, 1950s - 1960s, Brirain suffered a " Brain Drain" with lots of good people going to the States because of the scientific environment there. Then there seemed to be a steady influx of high quality Jaoanese, Korean, Indian and, more lately, Chinese and Russian scientists and research engineers grabbing a piece of the action over there. The States was the place to be to surf the leading edge of science and technology. Some took their experience back home again but a lot stayed longer.

What effect will Trump's unenlightened attitide towards critical sciences have I wonder? Computing and robotics will probably remain standing high but will "ecological" science, beyond just biological studies, and some medical sciences see an increased outward surge in the flow I wonder?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 04, 2017, 10:21:38 PM
I remember when, 1950s - 1960s, Brirain suffered a " Brain Drain" with lots of good people going to the States because of the scientific environment there. Then there seemed to be a steady influx of high quality Jaoanese, Korean, Indian and, more lately, Chinese and Russian scientists and research engineers grabbing a piece of the action over there. The States was the place to be to surf the leading edge of science and technology. Some took their experience back home again but a lot stayed longer.

What effect will Trump's unenlightened attitide towards critical sciences have I wonder? Computing and robotics will probably remain standing high but will "ecological" science, beyond just biological studies, and some medical sciences see an increased outward surge in the flow I wonder?

I'm probably going to leave if I can. Hopefully to Japan.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on May 04, 2017, 11:37:17 PM
Are you studying Japanese, Arturo?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 05, 2017, 12:45:15 AM
Are you studying Japanese, Arturo?

I am a little bit using a free resource. I chose it because they guy behind it says he's teaching everyday language. When most other resources teach more formal speak. I knew that from high school Spanish. So I thought this would be a fun alternative. And plus this guy has a YouTube channel where he goes around taking surveys in Japan.

Side note, he debunked the CNN story that said half of Japanese people are virgins. It turns out that only half of the younger population are virgins, because they are career focused. While older adults have more kids already.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on May 07, 2017, 10:52:02 PM
Our glorious leader has signed another of his executive orders. This one is to negate the Johnson Rule which prohibited churches from openly endorsing a particular political candidate. 

Some churches have ignored the original LBJ rule without any repercussions. With the new executive order the churches and their leaders may openly endorse or even provide financial help to a candidate or a party.  Church leaders are divided about the advantages of rescinding the Johnson rule. Some see it as a bad idea because it puts the church in an awkward position that could bring down the ire of opponents of the candidate or party that the church might endorse.

I count this as another display of show business on the part of the Donald. ....Or maybe Mike Pence has influenced the prez?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on May 08, 2017, 10:48:59 AM
The executive order asks Congress to repeal the Johnson Amendment, but it cannot negate it. What it does is direct the IRS to cease enforcement, while the IRS has only actually taken action against one or two churches since the Johnson Amendment became law. I agree that it seems likely that Pence was cheerleading this executive order, but Trump has other evangelical advisors, so it's probably not just Pence who was behind the decision. The article below describes another reason this isn't anything to be happy about.

"Trump’s Churches Order Is a Nonsolution to a Nonproblem—With a Dangerous Side Effect" | Slate (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/04/trump_s_executive_order_on_churches_could_be_a_window_for_more_dark_money.html)

Quote
Of course speech from the pulpit itself is not the only issue churches are worried about, because as professor Doug Laycock explains here (https://www.christiancentury.org/article/dont-repeal-johnson-amendment-fix-it), nobody actually goes after pastors for religious speech, and the amendment could certainly be tweaked to protect them more broadly under the First Amendment in any event. But, this whole fight is, as speech fights often are, probably just a proxy for a bigger fight about money (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/how-trump-is-trying-to-put-more-money-in-politics/493823/). Which as you know is speech. Especially when you have buckets and buckets of speech to unload. As Laycock explains, as currently drafted, the Johnson Amendment serves an important function, because it currently prevents churches and other 501(c)(3)s from becoming “a huge loophole in the campaign finance laws” that would allow churches to participate more freely in pouring dark money into elections, without any fear of disclosure requirements. All of this comes with the added benefit that donations to churches or 501(c)(3)s are tax-deductible. The electoral consequences of giving special status to church money could be profound.

[Continues . . . (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/04/trump_s_executive_order_on_churches_could_be_a_window_for_more_dark_money.html)]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2017, 03:44:00 AM
The Trump Shite House gaffes again.

Quote
James Comey fired: Donald Trump sacks FBI Director
. . .

White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said in a statement that Mr Comey has been "terminated and removed from office." Mr Trump was said to have acted on "clear recommendations" from Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, in a move that has shocked Washington.

However, Democratic Senators were quick to point out the constitutional crisis that has been created by Mr Trump removing a man in charge of investigating him. Senator Dick Durbin said on the Senate floor that the firing of Mr Comey raises questions "as to whether the Russian interference in the last presidential election... will also be investigated by the FBI."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/james-comey-fired-donald-trump-fbi-director-russian-investigation-latest-news-updates-a7727236.html

But they are saying it is because of how he handled Hilary's email investigations, nothing to do with the Trump/Russia ones of course...

Yet Trump supported those email investigations - another about face! Spin Damage limitation is at full speed yet again.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 10, 2017, 04:12:12 AM
Conspiracy theory:

Y'know, it's almost as if there are senior Republicans working to get Trump discredited and thrown out of office . . . Wonder why that might be?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on May 15, 2017, 07:20:24 PM
His whole campaign looked like someone who didn't want to get elected. I don't see any difference.

What it looks like is that he doesn't want to be a president, he wants to be a dictator.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 22, 2017, 06:29:18 PM
Seems that Flynn may claim defence under the 5th Ammendment. Though, according to the BBC, it seems he called this a tactic used by "mobsters" when Democrats relied on it during the Hilary emails investigation.

"Boot" and "other foot" come to mind.

As ever, politicians spin like tops. On steroids. The hypocricy is not at all surprising.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on May 22, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
It's... I guess it's now very dampening.

Though I am amazed that so many people are still very much in support of Trump.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 22, 2017, 08:22:42 PM
It's... I guess it's now very dampening.

Though I am amazed that so many people are still very much in support of Trump.

Sorry, Davil, but by repute it does not surprise me at all that there are so many bigotted dipshits over there. The behaviour on the Thinking Athiest forum convinced me tgat the literature about the great American Myth and the cultures it has generated is not a fantasy - just reality stretched a little. It is a happy thing that there are just about enough more rational people to balance things out. But by the narrow margin of the actual vote count only just it seems - however the loonies got in power even then.

When I ask myself if American politics can ever be the same after Trump I have to think it can, even your liberals tend to be conservative. Or you have to change the model of your democracy and its voting system. Or become a sort of Fascist-theocratic state? Or have another Civil War and split in two again?

The last two are jokes - I think...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 22, 2017, 10:43:00 PM
. . .  Or become a sort of Fascist-theocratic state? Or have another Civil War and split in two again?

The last two are jokes - I think...

Maybe not.  We Californians have already picked a name for our independent nation if we secede from the U.S.  We're pretty sure Oregon and Washington state will come with us so we're calling the whole thing Pacifica.  Just in jest, for the moment.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on May 23, 2017, 01:03:29 AM
It may be more in reality than in jest Sandy.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 23, 2017, 02:21:31 AM
It may be more in reality than in jest Sandy.

Yeah, just let that Sessions character push us once more about our Sanctuary cities . . .   He takes away our Federal funding we'll just see how much he likes doing without the $1.50 in taxes we give the govt for each $1 of funding we get! 

Never mind that our votes don't count in the Presidential elections -- literally, don't count.  There have been times when the EC selected a winner and the opposition conceded while the West Coast was still voting.  Talk about taxation without representation.   :rant1:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 23, 2017, 03:39:29 AM
It may be more in reality than in jest Sandy.

Yeah, just let that Sessions character push us once more about our Sanctuary cities . . .   He takes away our Federal funding we'll just see how much he likes doing without the $1.50 in taxes we give the govt for each $1 of funding we get! 

Never mind that our votes don't count in the Presidential elections -- literally, don't count.  There have been times when the EC selected a winner and the opposition conceded while the West Coast was still voting.  Talk about taxation without representation.   :rant1:

Someone pointed out to me that when it's said the electoral college makes sure the bigger states don't get all the votes, they ask why does Ohio become the important state? They have less people yet their votes get all the wins. Down with the capital!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on May 23, 2017, 07:14:42 PM
It's only 11 seconds long.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 24, 2017, 01:51:53 AM
It's only 11 seconds long.


(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fjXSwNcLyADjG/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on May 24, 2017, 02:22:05 AM
:snicker:
https://mic.com/articles/177811/why-did-melania-trump-swat-donald-s-hand-away-a-body-language-expert-weighs-in#.E8KAjF4rw (https://mic.com/articles/177811/why-did-melania-trump-swat-donald-s-hand-away-a-body-language-expert-weighs-in#.E8KAjF4rw)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 24, 2017, 05:22:20 AM
Only further confirms the Donald is an insecure narcissist trying to grab things for comfort.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on June 02, 2017, 04:12:59 AM
Our dimwitted president has made some dumb decisions but none as ill advised as the Paris accord rejection. That puts us in the same category as Syria and Venezuela, the only other two nations that failed to endorse the Paris agreement. More than a hundred ninety other nations have endorsed it.

One does not have to be political scientist or economist to figure out who the winners and losers are. Russia and Saudi Arabia are both major oil producers. The "leader of the free world" has just gotten in bed with them and he took the rest of us with him.

President Macron of France delivered a response....in English language.....short, concise and aimed straight at our psycho president. He finished his terse response with the words; "Make the planet great again". Now let us see if the Donald can deliver a retort in the French language.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 02, 2017, 04:49:08 AM
Quote
Now let us see if the Donald can deliver a retort in the French language.

Aw, c'mon, Icarus, he can barely speak English, even when someone writes it down for him.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on June 02, 2017, 05:11:36 AM
Quote
Now let us see if the Donald can deliver a retort in the French language.

Aw, c'mon, Icarus, he can barely speak English, even when someone writes it down for him.

 :snicker:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on June 02, 2017, 04:35:05 PM
Everything keeps getting worse and worse... and there's still at least 3 and half years left. At least it slowed down a bit, but so many shitty things. And now we're about to lose net neutrality too.

Right now it's more than a bit overwhelming. It's not just Trump and people voted these assholes in. The same assholes that are hurting them and many of the voters are still happy about it... mostly because they're blaming the wrong people for their situation, but still.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: No one on June 02, 2017, 05:56:45 PM
People say that trump is number 1, but that number actually refers to his IQ.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on June 02, 2017, 07:58:11 PM
People say that trump is number 1, but that number actually refers to his IQ.
Hmmm!
(http://38.media.tumblr.com/043d1468cf78ea362255bc32c2e9d6ec/tumblr_ngukrqZcFx1sqbsito1_500.gif)
I think that number is too high.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on June 02, 2017, 08:06:20 PM
Just had to share this: 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Harmonie on June 02, 2017, 08:55:01 PM
People say that trump is number 1, but that number actually refers to his IQ.

I think it better refers to his own perception of himself. He sees himself as number 1 and everyone and everything else as beneath him.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on June 02, 2017, 09:44:56 PM
Books that was the best video in a long time. I loved it. The parody singers were in good voice.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on June 03, 2017, 03:02:22 AM
Books that was the best video in a long time. I loved it. The parody singers were in good voice.

I'm hoping they've done other things.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on June 03, 2017, 09:48:37 PM
A little more ridicule set to music......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UW2ZndKqcg
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on June 04, 2017, 02:03:53 AM
A little more ridicule set to music......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UW2ZndKqcg

Heh!  I predict "covfefe" will have legs.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 04, 2017, 08:15:33 AM
A little more ridicule set to music......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UW2ZndKqcg

Heh!  I predict "covfefe" will have legs.
There is a whole range of tee shirts, mugs, bumper stickers, baby clothes . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on June 05, 2017, 03:27:30 PM
A little more ridicule set to music......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UW2ZndKqcg

Heh!  I predict "covfefe" will have legs.
There is a whole range of tee shirts, mugs, bumper stickers, baby clothes . . .

(http://i.imgur.com/avgY3sC.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 06, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
Trump Shite House spokesturd Kellyanne Conway is displaying a sad lack of intelligence (as usual).

Quote
Kellyanne Conway says media is 'obsessed' with Trump's tweets after President goes on early morning tirade
Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-travel-ban-tweets-kellyanne-conway-media-obsessed-twitter-president-a7773726.html)

So she thinks that what President Shithead says is not important? That these tweets are not an indicator of his personality?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on June 06, 2017, 08:51:42 PM
Skip to about 4:43.


Quote from: Kelly
I think his twitter platform[...]it's his way to communicate directly to the people.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 06, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Oops
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 06, 2017, 09:17:58 PM
Skip to about 4:43.


Quote from: Kelly
I think his twitter platform[...]it's his way to communicate directly to the people.

Good one, I like that guy!


Just the normal, totally contradictory, Trump Shite House then.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 21, 2017, 06:16:33 PM
Sean “. . . the largest audience ever to witness an inauguration, period . . ." Spicer has stepped down becsuse Ol' Trumpy has done gone and appointed a new man. Ah...

Only problem is his loss may actually make the Trump Shite House better! Ler's see if we can believe Mr Scaramucci, though, finding an honest financier (and one who is possibly mates with Ol' Trumpy) these days can get difficult. Maybe it will just be a new fandango?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 21, 2017, 07:57:44 PM
Sean “. . . the largest audience ever to witness an inauguration, period . . ." Spicer has stepped down becsuse Ol' Trumpy has done gone and appointed a new man. Ah...

Only problem is his loss may actually make the Trump Shite House better! Ler's see if we can believe Mr Scaramucci, though, finding an honest financier (and one who is possibly mates with Ol' Trumpy) these days can get difficult. Maybe it will just be a new fandango?

It's been half a year and he's still hiring and firing people for the same position. Either he thinks it's still a reality show, or people are just tired of being his bitch.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 21, 2017, 07:59:29 PM
Looks like Trump has been asking around about his pardoning powers as they relate to his friends, family, and even himself. Also, he seems to be very upset that Mueller is looking into his taxes.

I mean, I'm trying my best not to jump the conclusion... but I mean... Trump's actions are making it very difficult.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 21, 2017, 08:06:52 PM
Looks like Trump has been asking around about his pardoning powers as they relate to his friends, family, and even himself. Also, he seems to be very upset that Mueller is looking into his taxes.

I mean, I'm trying my best not to jump the conclusion... but I mean... Trump's actions are making it very difficult.

I wonder if he really could pardon himself...I'm sure his cult would still support him even if he was found to have broken the law and sentenced to jail.

But yes, he does make everything very difficult to investigate.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 21, 2017, 08:44:34 PM
Looks like Trump has been asking around about his pardoning powers as they relate to his friends, family, and even himself. Also, he seems to be very upset that Mueller is looking into his taxes.

I mean, I'm trying my best not to jump the conclusion... but I mean... Trump's actions are making it very difficult.

Yes, looking very much like the person trying desperatly to get rid of what he sees as problems - whilst sinking ever deeper into the quicksand.

One American commentator said we might expect some tale telling out of this. It will all be fake news of course!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 21, 2017, 10:47:11 PM
I agree Gloucester, it does look like a guy trying to cover his tracks.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2017, 08:22:09 AM
Well, looks like Scaramucci is keeping to te Trump Shite House tradition, calling other senior members names and maintaining the usual dysfunction.

Quote
Scaramucci attacks Bannon and calls Priebus ‘fucking paranoid schizophrenic’
Extraordinary tirade raises prospect of all-out civil war at the White House

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/27/anthony-scaramucci-white-house-reince-priebus-steve-bannon

(http://i.imgur.com/gHmaOg6.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on July 28, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
..!

Queen? Yes? Did The Asmo get a musical reference? He DID, did He not?! 

*Murder a small child for arms and legs*

*Sometime later*

:frolic:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2017, 09:20:39 AM
..!

Queen? Yes? Did The Asmo get a musical reference? He DID, did He not?! 

*Murder a small child for arms and legs*

*Sometime later*

:frolic:
He did.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 28, 2017, 02:47:56 PM
Man, I wish everyone read this.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/bill-browders-testimony-to-the-senate-judiciary-committee/534864/
Quote
Putin was furious. Looking for ways to retaliate against American interests, he settled on the most sadistic and evil option of all: banning the adoption of Russian orphans by American families.

This was particularly heinous because of the effect it had on the orphans. Russia did not allow the adoption of healthy children, just sick ones. In spite of this, American families came with big hearts and open arms, taking in children with HIV, Down syndrome, Spina Bifida and other serious ailments. They brought them to America, nursed them, cared for them and loved them. Since the Russian orphanage system did not have the resources to look after these children, many of those unlucky enough to remain in Russia would die before their 18th birthday. In practical terms, this meant that Vladimir Putin sentenced his own, most vulnerable and sick Russian orphans to death in order to protect corrupt officials in his regime.

Why did Vladimir Putin take such a drastic and malicious step?

For two reasons. First, since 2012 it’s emerged that Vladimir Putin was a beneficiary of the stolen $230 million that Sergei Magnitsky exposed. Recent revelations from the Panama Papers have shown that Putin’s closest childhood friend, Sergei Roldugin, a famous cellist, received $2 billion of funds from Russian oligarchs and the Russian state. It’s commonly understood that Mr. Roldugin received this money as an agent of Vladimir Putin. Information from the Panama Papers also links some money from the crime that Sergei Magnitsky discovered and exposed to Sergei Roldugin. Based on the language of the Magnitsky Act, this would make Putin personally subject to Magnitsky sanctions.

When they say they talked about "orphans"... fuck, what a bunch of assholes.

And why have I heard so little about the Magnitsky Act from major news outlets?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on July 28, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
From what I understand that was not accomplished through a presidential decree. While a member of the party Putin is a member of (I'm not sure if he leads it or not and... Going home. Too lazy to look it up right now) proposed the law, it met with negligible opposition.

So yeah... Putin is not synonymous with Russia or the Russian government. While similar to one in some ways, the guy is not a dictator.

When it comes to the Magnitsky act, I think it may have been because all in all, it was not major news. Sanctions come and go, and murder is only sexy when done in sexy ways. This actually goes to my rant somewhere else about the media and reporting and money and egos and what have you.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 28, 2017, 04:56:29 PM
I see that there might be a very clear motive in getting a brash idiot like Tronald Dump and others like him elected. Not only would he be the perfect puppet, but he would have (and does) have everyone's focus on domestic affairs while Russia steps up and does whatever it wants.

From what I understand that was not accomplished through a presidential decree. While a member of the party Putin is a member of (I'm not sure if he leads it or not and... Going home. Too lazy to look it up right now) proposed the law, it met with negligible opposition.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean here. Let me ask fir what I need cleared up.
In what law are you refering to? And what was "accomplished?" And which President do you mean?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on July 28, 2017, 06:10:20 PM
The orphans thing. President Putin of Russian Federation.

I think Putin's involvement in micromanaging this bullshit issue may have been something like this;

Mr. Putin: "Hey, unnamed henchman, we need to respond to this sanction situation. Plan some scenarios oh, and don't fuck over any one important."

Some time later:

Unnamed henchman: "Orphans, mr. president. Orphans"

Mr. Putin: "Orphans... Yes. Make it happen."

Some time later:

The Federal govt. of Russia: "Meh... Why not."

Putin has his empire to run. I wouldn't pin something as insignificant to the grand scheme of things as disabled kids needing parents on him. Russia doesn't use much money or put much effort of other kinds into those kids. To their government, they may well be someone of no consequence to screw the fuck over as a part of some symbolic political gesture. Doesn't need a president to call that a plan.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 28, 2017, 06:17:40 PM
I am more concerned with trying to play off the collusion to remove sanctions that were put in place because of corruption in the Russian government that goes all the way to Putin, as talking about orphans. It takes a special kind of asshole.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on July 28, 2017, 06:45:28 PM
Oh! Yes, well...

Do you think sanctions were the primary objective though? Seems a bit... Small, doesn't it? Compared with the new reality this whole situation is presenting?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 28, 2017, 07:45:07 PM
I think it's as Browder says, that Putin and the oligarchs want to be able to do whatever they want in their country without any consequences outside of it (or even inside of it). Since they have so much money in other countries, this is a pretty big consequence. And Putin and his oligarchs (band name?) want to fix that. I doubt that removing the sanctions is the only thing they want, but I'm pretty sure it is one thing they really want.

Now I already know you don't like that kind of thing (other countries meddling with the affairs of other countries).  I doubt we'll be able to bridge that so I'm too interested in going into it. But the basics are that Russia invites foreign investors, which opens up those foreigner investors to have some say in things that happen.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2017, 08:21:09 PM
From what I can remember of the history of late Tsarist Russia there are similar characristics to the then social structure - just swap the Boyars for the oligarchs. OK, every country has a "them and us" structure but that in Russia has an origin that seems embedded in the national personality, inescapable even by revolution.

It was still there after the October revolution, just with different people at the top. I think Gorbachov came closest to democratising and de-corrupting the system - which is why they tried to overthrow him, even the armed forces (like do many around the world now) had their fingers in all kinds of pies.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 28, 2017, 08:43:27 PM
I may be wrong but....I think that America had personal involvement at the time to provoke their involvement wouldn't they? I thought that they killed someone who was American orrr...?

I don't know but it seemed to provoke Putin to expose some level of sleeper cells that are here in the USA and how corrupt the system is by foreign states.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2017, 08:48:56 PM
I may be wrong but....I think that America had personal involvement at the time to provoke their involvement wouldn't they? I thought that they killed someone who was American orrr...?

I don't know but it seemed to provoke Putin to expose some level of sleeper cells that are here in the USA and how corrupt the system is by foreign states.

Sorry, Arturo, I have lost the context here. At which time? Are we talking sanctions? Orphans? Oligarchs? Disconnection between governance and personal gain? Or what?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 28, 2017, 09:30:00 PM
I may be wrong but....I think that America had personal involvement at the time to provoke their involvement wouldn't they? I thought that they killed someone who was American orrr...?

I don't know but it seemed to provoke Putin to expose some level of sleeper cells that are here in the USA and how corrupt the system is by foreign states.

Sorry, Arturo, I have lost the context here. At which time? Are we talking sanctions? Orphans? Oligarchs? Disconnection between governance and personal gain? Or what?

I mean the USA had personal involvement to provoke the sanctions. And that the sanctions provoked Putin to expose the corruption.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 28, 2017, 09:46:24 PM
So the GOP failed their anti-ACA bill again this morning with a vote of 51 against and 49 for. Thanks to Collins, Murkowski, and McCain opposing their party. So healthcare is not royally screwed yet. But it will be if things aren't fixed. Millions will still lose insurance if things stay as is, but more will lose insurance if bill like what the GOP keeps proposing passes.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 28, 2017, 09:51:50 PM
I may be wrong but....I think that America had personal involvement at the time to provoke their involvement wouldn't they? I thought that they killed someone who was American orrr...?

I don't know but it seemed to provoke Putin to expose some level of sleeper cells that are here in the USA and how corrupt the system is by foreign states.

Sorry, Arturo, I have lost the context here. At which time? Are we talking sanctions? Orphans? Oligarchs? Disconnection between governance and personal gain? Or what?

I mean the USA had personal involvement to provoke the sanctions. And that the sanctions provoked Putin to expose the corruption.

Perhaps I missed something, what corruption did Putin, himself seemingly well corrupt, expose?

[pedant] Er, "personal" is not really appropriate when talking of a country, "...the USA had personal involvement..." . A country is not a person! Though it can have a "national personality", an cultural aggregate, hmmm  :thoughtful:[/pedant]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on July 28, 2017, 11:22:14 PM
Quote from: Gloucester

Perhaps I missed something, what corruption did Putin, himself seemingly well corrupt, expose?
Corruption
Sleeper cells in USA (for further clarification - the people lobbying to get the sanctions lifted are the sleeper cells)
Two things that mean the same thing.

Quote
[pedant] Er, "personal" is not really appropriate when talking of a country, "...the USA had personal involvement..." . A country is not a person! Though it can have a "national personality", an cultural aggregate, hmmm  :thoughtful:[/pedant]
It's the only word that fits I can think of.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on July 30, 2017, 11:44:37 AM
I think it's as Browder says, that Putin and the oligarchs want to be able to do whatever they want in their country without any consequences outside of it (or even inside of it).
To the sound of Hell facing yet another blizzard, I agree.

I think their ambitions stretch wider than their own sandbox though. There is money, yes, but then there is... Power. Controlling the game.

Quote
Since they have so much money in other countries, this is a pretty big consequence. And Putin and his oligarchs (band name?) want to fix that. I doubt that removing the sanctions is the only thing they want, but I'm pretty sure it is one thing they really want.
I'm sure they want the sanctions lifted, yes. However, I can't but see a certain element of stretching some muscles they either only just realized that they had, or that they have been willingly nursing into proper shape. I'm back to my power and control argument. If Russia knows that it can strategically destabilize "the West," well... There are implications to that, which reach beyond bank accounts.

Quote
Now I already know you don't like that kind of thing (other countries meddling with the affairs of other countries).
That is true. In fact, after watching Bill Maher spin his Russia narrative in a full-body tin foil suit, so to speak, I have been wondering if I myself am not overthinking it by looking at the situation through my prism of disliking international meddlers... I found that line of inquiry inconclusive at this time.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 31, 2017, 03:45:06 PM
I think that's as far as we can get on the current information. I do think that they really want to get their billions back from where they'd been keeping it in the west. I think that's a very big motivation for them. Oligarchs get their power from how much money they have, so I don't see much of a separation from money and power. Thought there are other kinds of power.

Since Putin seems to be quite upset about increased sanctions, I wonder if we'll see less of Trump fluffing up Putin.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on July 31, 2017, 08:55:33 PM
Surprise? More musical chairs at the White House. Today's news is that Scarramucci (the Mooch) has been ousted. Word is that the new chief of staff, Kelly, wanted him gone.

Stand by for the next round of fun and games.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 31, 2017, 09:18:22 PM
:lol:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/politics/anthony-scaramucci-white-house-salary/index.html
Quote
Though Scaramucci wasn't slated to begin until August 15, he told CNN his start date was moved up and his first official day as a White House employee was July 26.
Since his official start date was August 15th, he lasted an amazing -16 days.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 31, 2017, 10:00:55 PM
 :eyeroll:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/us/politics/anthony-scaramucci-white-house.html

Quote
Trump Says No ‘Chaos!’ at White House but Continues Threats
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/us/politics/trump-white-house-obamacare-health.html?rref=collection%2Fnewseventcollection%2FThe%20Trump%20White%20House&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=newsevent&pgtype=article

This is truly a Shite House!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on July 31, 2017, 10:07:13 PM
What is up with that "let them start with a clean slate" excuse that keeps popping up? That's almost the exact same thing Spicy said about the Moocher when he left.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on August 01, 2017, 04:22:17 AM
Our deranged Prez is being ripped all over the internet for his ill conceived speech at the recent Boy Scout Jamboree. The poor man started by saying that we do not want to talk about politics and then immediately began a tirade about politics.....Sigh....

I an concerned about his sanity.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 01, 2017, 05:03:08 AM
That's no different than when he was on tv with Anderson Cooper while running for office.


On a slightly unrelated note, I rewatched an old documentary on the murders of tupac and biggie smalls. It seems that the man they believed that was behind it (suge knight) was employing some of the same tactics trump and the alt right use. ie "can you just not talk about it? If you do, I'm gonna kill/fire you"
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 01, 2017, 08:20:04 AM
Seems that Trump "dictated" Junior's original description of the meeting with the Russians to say it was about adopting orphans. It was only when emails started leaking that the truth came out.

Lies laminated in lies all the way.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 01, 2017, 01:41:17 PM
Seems that Trump "dictated" Junior's original description of the meeting with the Russians to say it was about adopting orphans. It was only when emails started leaking that the truth came out.

Lies laminated in lies all the way.

So sr came out and said he told jr to lie? So that would imply they both knew all along.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 01, 2017, 02:27:06 PM
If Trump gets the noot does thst sutomatically mean Ponce will bevome top dog? And does it mean he stays there the rest of the term?  No constitutional grounds for re-running the whole election or indicting Ponce for complicity in Trump's actions - since he evidently has not demurred against them.

Then again, s'pose he can't do that without resigning first - and that he will not do - hasn't got the ethical or moral integrity for it. Never mind the State of the Nation, can't damage the GOP's position.

Er, anyone else worth voting for over there, especially in the Democrats?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 01, 2017, 03:17:00 PM
Seems that Trump "dictated" Junior's original description of the meeting with the Russians to say it was about adopting orphans. It was only when emails started leaking that the truth came out.

Lies laminated in lies all the way.
The stupid thing is, that talking about the orphans, is talking about the sanctions. The Russians blocking orphan adoptions was a direct response to the sanctions imposed in the Magnitsky Act.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Asmodean on August 02, 2017, 10:28:28 AM
Yes, It was a counter-sanction. When Davin and I agree, it must be so.

That's how the game is played. Trouble for the Russians is, however, that they can not do much harm to the US interests without harming their own interests in the process. I think the orphans were an example of just that - Russia making a symbolic answer to the sanctions, but without screwing over any-one important on their own soil... Bah! I'm about to go on a tirade, but there is work that needs doing. I've covered this in some posts above though, for those truly interested.

In any case, why not let the Congress or some faceless committee deal with the whole Russia situation? I mean, if I was a pure-intentioned Trump, I would consider that... Unless prevented by some law of some kind?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 02, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
The White House has confirmed that Trump wrote Trump Jr.'s misleading statements about the collusion meeting, so the Russia collusion does go all the way to the president. Not surprised since about an hour after the meeting started, Trump tweeted
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/741007091947556864?lang=en
Quote
How long did it take your staff of 823 people to think that up--and where are your 33,000 emails that you deleted?

I have little doubt that Trump knew about the collusion.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 02, 2017, 04:20:32 PM
That man lives in a fantasy universe!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 02, 2017, 06:03:21 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/nS8dVNK.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: No one on August 02, 2017, 06:06:38 PM
Trump is to a retarded crack addicted monkey, what a retarded crack addicted monkey is to Steven Hawking
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 02, 2017, 06:28:30 PM
The White House has confirmed that Trump wrote Trump Jr.'s misleading statements about the collusion meeting, so the Russia collusion does go all the way to the president. Not surprised since about an hour after the meeting started, Trump tweeted
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/741007091947556864?lang=en
Quote
How long did it take your staff of 823 people to think that up--and where are your 33,000 emails that you deleted?

I have little doubt that Trump knew about the collusion.

LOL what's funnier is what Hillary said to him in that lmao I'm dying...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 02, 2017, 07:52:12 PM
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/president-trump-may-have-to-testify-in-seth-rich-lawsuit/
Quote
Now, Wheeler’s attorney says he wants to depose President Donald Trump and former White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer.

I'd love to see Trump talking under oath.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 02, 2017, 08:10:32 PM
Must be getting awfully cold and dark in that abyss, with lots of slimy things crawling around . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: No one on August 02, 2017, 08:16:34 PM
(http://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/img/layout/icon_quote.jpg)Gloucester:
Must be getting awfully cold and dark in that abyss, with lots of slimy things crawling around . . .

Are referring to the Trump family reunion? (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 02, 2017, 08:48:20 PM
(http://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/img/layout/icon_quote.jpg)Gloucester:
Must be getting awfully cold and dark in that abyss, with lots of slimy things crawling around . . .

Are referring to the Trump family reunion? (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)

Tut, no.

: show
Only 'cos I didn't know about the reunion! But add in the staffers . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
Looks like there is still a severe disconnect between Trump and his Shite House staff. Similar to the disconnect between Trump's brain and the real world?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on August 11, 2017, 03:04:53 PM
After the blasting Mitch McConnel (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/us/politics/president-trump-escalates-criticism-of-mitch-mcconnell-as-majority-leader.html) received recently from Trump, maybe some of the Republicans who sided with Trump against there better judgement during the election will now sadly realize the following:

(http://i.imgur.com/tWzTehv.jpg)


Original article here. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/when-will-republicans-learn-that-donald-trump-hates-them)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2017, 03:33:56 PM
His approval rating is running at about 37% accirding to Gallup. So about a third of Americans are still stupid?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

Looks like others are around 37 - 40%
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 11, 2017, 03:38:25 PM
Remember that up until the impeachment, even Nixon had a about the same approval ratings.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 11, 2017, 04:31:55 PM
Remember that up until the impeachment, even Nixon had a about the same approval ratings.

Simply more evidence against about a third of American citizens, IQ-wise.

OK, I know, it is the same everywhere, there is always a faction that will vote with their gonads, or their body waste disposal orifices, rather than their brains. From gun-nuts who will vote for any pro-ownership/carry candidate, regardless of all other matters of state,  to those who are out of touch with rationality, always voted red or blue and not really interested enough to think about it.

On this side of the pond, I can think of no person worth voting for in any governing position.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on August 11, 2017, 05:19:46 PM
Remember that up until the impeachment, even Nixon had a about the same approval ratings.

Simply more evidence against about a third of American citizens, IQ-wise.

OK, I know, it is the same everywhere, there is always a faction that will vote with their gonads, or their body waste disposal orifices, rather than their brains. From gun-nuts who will vote for any pro-ownership/carry candidate, regardless of all other matters of state,  to those who are out of touch with rationality, always voted red or blue and not really interested enough to think about it.

On this side of the pond, I can think of no person worth voting for in any governing position.


I believe 'Merica is going through or experiencing another period of growth or maturity. Let's face it we are compared to European nations and governments we are still a relatively young nation, maybe not adolescents anymore, but rather impetuous young adults. I also think this is more of a societal growth issue than simply a political or governmental one.
I almost feel like we are headed toward another civil war (Not so much a physical one, but more ideological)

Part of our problem here if not one of the main issues is the dumbing down of our society, and I think the following articled explains this quite adequately.
"Ray Bradbury Reveals the True Meaning of Fahrenheit 451: It’s Not About Censorship, But People “Being Turned Into Morons by TV” (http://www.openculture.com/2017/08/ray-bradbury-reveals-the-true-meaning-of-fahrenheit-451.html)

"...being turned into morons by TV." Johnson quotes Bradbury describing television as a medium that "gives you the dates of Napoleon, but not who he was,” spreading "factoids" instead of knowledge. “They stuff you with so much useless information, you feel full.”

...anyway, only 3.5 more years to go right?


(http://i.imgur.com/kCwXGqG.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 11, 2017, 06:33:19 PM
After the blasting Mitch McConnel (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/us/politics/president-trump-escalates-criticism-of-mitch-mcconnell-as-majority-leader.html) received recently from Trump, maybe some of the Republicans who sided with Trump against there better judgement during the election will now sadly realize the following:

(http://i.imgur.com/tWzTehv.jpg)


Original article here. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/when-will-republicans-learn-that-donald-trump-hates-them)

Funny thing about this...yes Donald Trump hates them. This was the side that called anyone else who aren't totally aligned with them "cucks". (Urban Dictionary that if you don't know what it is). But now they are the ones who are actually the "cucks" and they voted him in!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on August 12, 2017, 06:03:15 AM

...anyway, only 3.5 more years to go right?


(http://i.imgur.com/kCwXGqG.jpg)
Quote
"Let's see what he does with Guam?" --Donald T.
:worried: :haironfire: :worried:

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 14, 2017, 04:34:43 PM
And another one hits the road . . .
Quote
Merck CEO Ken Frazier resigns from Trump council in protest, and the president swiftly bites back

And old Snowflake hits out like a little kid.


https://endpts.com/merck-ceo-ken-frazier-resigns-from-trump-council-in-protest-and-the-president-fires-right-back/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on August 14, 2017, 05:01:34 PM
And another one hits the road . . .
Quote
Merck CEO Ken Frazier resigns from Trump council in protest, and the president swiftly bites back

And old Snowflake hits out like a little kid.


https://endpts.com/merck-ceo-ken-frazier-resigns-from-trump-council-in-protest-and-the-president-fires-right-back/

Yes, President Snowflake thought with his tweet he could sink the CEO and Merck, but Dickhead is overestimating the power of these tweets. His attack has backfired, and hopefully is providing a lesson for Wall Street that they have nothing to fear from this Nazi enabling president.

 Merck stock is having its best day since July 27!
(http://i.imgur.com/In9VZgx.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 07:11:51 AM
And even more walkers:
Quote
Under Armour and Intel C.E.O.s Follow Merck Chief, Quitting Panel in Rebuke to Trump

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/business/merck-ceo-trump-charlottesville.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 03:43:32 PM
Trump's going to be all alone. Does that give him more or less power ways to mess things up?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 03:49:06 PM
Trump's going to be all alone. Does that give him more or less power ways to mess things up?

Trouble is, since these "council" members are his chosen appointees he will probably just replace them with his favourite arsewipes sycophants yes-men other captains of industry.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 04:12:07 PM
By the time we hit 2020 he will be employing hobos.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 15, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
Look out, guys and gals, Big Brother Trump is flexing his authoritarian muscles...

Quote
US demands details of 1.3m visitors to anti-Trump site in crackdown on protestors

Quote
The US Government has ordered a web hosting service to disclose information about visitors to an anti-Donald Trump website, raising fears about privacy online.

The Department of Justice issued a warrant asking for the details of people who own, operate and have visited the DisruptJ20 website, which coordinated protests at Trump's inauguration.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/08/15/us-demands-details-visitors-anti-trump-site-crackdown-onprotestors/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 15, 2017, 09:57:40 PM
Look out, guys and gals, Big Brother Trump is flexing his authoritarian muscles...

Quote
US demands details of 1.3m visitors to anti-Trump site in crackdown on protestors

Quote
The US Government has ordered a web hosting service to disclose information about visitors to an anti-Donald Trump website, raising fears about privacy online.

The Department of Justice issued a warrant asking for the details of people who own, operate and have visited the DisruptJ20 website, which coordinated protests at Trump's inauguration.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/08/15/us-demands-details-visitors-anti-trump-site-crackdown-onprotestors/

By the time they do that, they probably already have all that information. They did the same thing with an iPhone. The FBI demanded Apple get them into a person's iPhone and they refused, there was a big fuss about it in the news, then the FBI came out and said they already cracked it. Apple responded by saying they will make a phone even THEY cannot hack.

I wonder if this has more to do with making a jail-break proof phone and less to do with criminal justice. But technically that's impossible as long as you have the source code.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 16, 2017, 08:14:48 PM
Well, now even more businessmen  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/15/fourth-businessman-resigns-donald-trumps-advisory-council-protest/)have walked out of Trump's industrial rebuilding council it seems he is disbanding the councils (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-charlottesville-ceos-virginia-heather-heyer-neo-nazis-manufacturing-council-a7897226.html) altogether.

The pundits say that he will not be able to make good his core election promise to rebuild America's industrial base without these people.

So, what comes next I wonder?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 17, 2017, 12:28:42 AM
Well, now a even more businessmen  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/15/fourth-businessman-resigns-donald-trumps-advisory-council-protest/)have walked out of Trump's industrial rebuilding council it seems he is disbanding the councils (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-charlottesville-ceos-virginia-heather-heyer-neo-nazis-manufacturing-council-a7897226.html) altogether.

The pundits say that he will not be able to make good his core election promise to rebuild America's industrial base without these people.

So, what comes next I wonder?

The same bullshit

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/001/250/486/4bf.png)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 17, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Seems that though the High Priests of Mammon have deserted Trump the Godly Evangelicals have not, despite mixed messages about Trump's responses to Charlottesville.

Quote
CEOs Are Abandoning Donald Trump, But His Evangelical Advisors Are Staying Put

Quote
Jerry Falwell, Jr., the head of Liberty University who’s been a Trump supporter since early in his campaign, celebrated Trump’s “bold truthful” statement about Charlottesville. (Which one? The first one which denounced “many sides”? The second one which was read off a teleprompter? Or the third one where he took back his condemnation of the alt-right and neo-Nazis?)

Quote
African American megachurch pastor A.R. Bernard signed a statement condemning white supremacist groups… but he hasn’t said anything about leaving Trump’s council.

Quote
Pastor James MacDonald called what happened in Charlottesville “pure evil,” but it’s not enough for him to denounce Trump.

Quote
Pastor Jentezen Franklin said of the “white racist” march that it was “evil personified and we denounce it. This is what hatred and sin looks like.” yet he’s still on board with Trump.

And, just for a change:

Quote
Pastor Jack Graham hasn’t left. In fact, he retweeted a call for a statue of Charles Darwin to be torn down because Darwin was a “white supremacist” and “racist if ever there was one.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/08/16/ceos-are-abandoning-donald-trump-but-his-evangelical-advisors-are-staying-put/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 17, 2017, 03:31:27 PM
If the religious people standing behind him weren't scary enough, Trump is also trying to get personal information of protest groups.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/15/dreamhost-is-fighting-doj-request-for-1-3m-ip-addresses-of-visitors-to-anti-trump-protest-site/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 17, 2017, 04:01:23 PM
If the religious people standing behind him weren't scary enough, Trump is also trying to get personal information of protest groups.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/15/dreamhost-is-fighting-doj-request-for-1-3m-ip-addresses-of-visitors-to-anti-trump-protest-site/

Yeah, I posted on this a couple of days ago. Trumpo trying to be a real Big Brother?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 17, 2017, 04:36:30 PM
That is a step in how a democratic republic becomes a dictatorship. Unfortunately, we've already made several other steps. We still have a lot more to go though.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 17, 2017, 05:21:51 PM
Yes, there are already complaints thst it is anti-constitutional
Quote
A Sweeping Search Warrant Targets Anti-Trump Website in Clear Threat to the Constitution
from the ACLU (https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-technology/internet-privacy/sweeping-search-warrant-targets-anti-trump-website-clear?redirect=blog/speak-freely/massive-search-warrant-targets-anti-trump-website-clear-threat-constitution)

There was also the emoluments clause case a couple of months sgo
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/12/emoluments-clause-trump-accused-of-violating-constitution.html

My mind keeps telling me there was at least one other case were Trump trued to get round the constitution, or maybe bad mouthed it.

But, he acted like a dictator in his own businesses, so why not now?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 17, 2017, 10:39:41 PM
So Trump ordered the search? So that means he broke the law then right? THAT MEANS HE CAN BE IMPEACHED!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on August 18, 2017, 12:57:49 AM
HAFers will be in deep doo-doo if the Trump steered DOJ happened to read our politics section. It would appear to a stranger that we do not care much for The Donald.  ;D
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 18, 2017, 01:00:48 AM
HAFers will be in deep doo-doo if the Trump steered DOJ happened to read our politics section. It would appear to a stranger that we do not care much for The Donald.  ;D

In that case...

...a new profile picture to make him mad!  ;D
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 18, 2017, 07:39:00 AM
HAFers will be in deep doo-doo if the Trump steered DOJ happened to read our politics section. It would appear to a stranger that we do not care much for The Donald.  ;D

I think he is taking lessons from Erdoğan! Second thoughts, nah, Trump is quite capable of generating his own narcissistic monomania.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 18, 2017, 09:05:43 PM
And, Bang goes Bannon! Sacked!

Quote
"White House chief of staff John Kelly and Steve Bannon have mutually agreed today would be Steve's last day," White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said in a statement. "We are grateful for his service and wish him the best."

http://uk.businessinsider.com/steve-bannon-out-white-house-trump-2017-8?r=US&IR=T
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on August 18, 2017, 09:43:24 PM
... and the entire Arts and Humanities panel has resigned with a stinging letter to Trump:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/18/members-of-white-house-presidential-arts-commission-resign-to-protest-trumps-comments/?utm_term=.462e9beba180 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/18/members-of-white-house-presidential-arts-commission-resign-to-protest-trumps-comments/?utm_term=.462e9beba180)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 18, 2017, 10:05:22 PM
One of Bannon's buddies said something thst made me think. He implied thst all Trump's original gang have been/are being ousted.

There is something of a new broom on the Trump Shite House floor - is this being imposed on el Trumpo? Get shot of his base so he has to do as someone tells him?

Be interesting to see Breitbart's angle on things, will they maintain their support for the Trump?


The sceptical cynic in me wonders if Charlotteville is just an excuse. After the first people left did it become a bit of a band-wagon for others?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on August 18, 2017, 10:34:06 PM
One of Bannon's buddies said something thst made me think. He implied thst all Trump's original gang have been/are being ousted.

There is something of a new broom on the Trump Shite House floor - is this being imposed on el Trumpo? Get shot of his base so he has to do as someone tells him?

Be interesting to see Breitbart's angle on things, will they maintain their support for the Trump?


The sceptical cynic in me wonders if Charlotteville is just an excuse. After the first people left did it become a bit of a band-wagon for others?

Trump is sending his minions out into the world to work covertly for him. That's my conspiracy theory ;-)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 19, 2017, 07:54:22 PM
News on the Trump-o-line:

Quote
Steve Bannon to target Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner as he pledges to 'go nuclear' on 'West Wing Democrats'
Quote
He and first lady Melania Trump decided not to participate in the annual Kennedy Center Honours event celebrating American culture after a backlash from those being honoured. The White House said the first couple were pulling out to "allow the honourees to celebrate without any political distraction".
Quote
Meanwhile, a host of charities canceled annual fundraising events at Mr Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida. They included the American Red Cross, Salvation Army, and the American  Cancer Society.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/19/steve-bannon-go-nuclear-west-wing-democrats-may-start-tv-network/

Quote
What Trump's Increasing Isolation Could Mean For His Presidency
Quote
There is a telling photo that has gotten some attention in social media after Steve Bannon's exit as President Trump's chief strategist. (You can see it above.)

It shows President Trump behind the desk in the Oval Office, surrounded by his top advisers: Seated are Vice President Pence and national security adviser Mike Flynn; standing, from left to right, are chief of staff Reince Priebus, chief strategist Steve Bannon and press secretary Sean Spicer.

That was Jan. 28, eight days after Trump was inaugurated.

Today, only Pence remains.
Quote
A president needs a staff of professionals to help shape messaging, so he can lead on policy and running the government. But what if the president winds up not being the traditional driver of policy? What if his influence winds up being limited to Twitter?
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/19/544580016/what-trumps-increasing-isolation-could-mean-for-his-presidency
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Non Quixote on August 25, 2017, 10:38:44 PM
So Trump ordered the search? So that means he broke the law then right? THAT MEANS HE CAN BE IMPEACHED!
Be careful what you wish for.

Remember that no matter how foul a cockroach Trump is, waiting right behind him is Michael Pence.  While Trump is a reprehensible human being and, well... a cockroach, he is also a gawdawful politician with members of his own party lining up against him.  Pence, being a career politician would have a far better grasp of how to get things done, without breaking any rules or laws.  And Pence's agenda is exponentially more draconian and nefarious. 

Trump is an ignorant nasty little buffoon.  In my opinion Pence is the far greater evil.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 26, 2017, 12:00:43 AM
Knock them all down!!!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 26, 2017, 07:41:39 AM
Gorka is out of el Trumpo's Shite House team, possibly a big boost to anti-terrorsm! But did he "resign"?
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/gorka/index.html

And it seems trannies are out of the armed oirces again.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/trump-transgender-military/index.html
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 26, 2017, 10:28:02 AM
Thinking about the "efficiency" and cost of "treatment" for trannies in the US armed firces - betcha the those manly pursuits like drug addiction and alcoholism cost a whole lot more in every way.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on August 29, 2017, 02:11:28 AM
The trannie thing is bullshit. The cost of maintaining a few alternate types is a not even pocket change compared to the big guys' absurd wall. A legitimate question is: Does it cost more to maintain a transgender soldier than it does to maintain a more ordinary one?  The big guy costs a colossal amount to have the secret service protect he and his extended family, (even Tiffany). Let us compare those costs with that of maintaining the limited numberof transgender military personnel.  His golf junkets to Mar-a- Lago costs a bloody fortune for the US-1 Aircraft to make those trips. Our guy is being the shit head that is so mysteriously appealing to his base.

Aside: I think that he stepped on his own dick when he pardoned Arpaio.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 29, 2017, 02:36:15 AM
Aside: I think that he stepped on his own dick when he pardoned Arpaio.
That would imply he doesn't have a micro-penis.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 29, 2017, 02:39:03 AM
Aside: I think that he stepped on his own dick when he pardoned Arpaio.

Could be, a constitutional law type professor said that that could actually be a misuse of the presidential power to pardon and grounds for impeachment.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 29, 2017, 02:40:46 AM
Aside: I think that he stepped on his own dick when he pardoned Arpaio.
That would imply he doesn't have a micro-penis.
Well, he is well capable of getting his foot up to his mouth so treading on his own crotch should not be a problem.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 29, 2017, 03:22:16 AM
Aside: I think that he stepped on his own dick when he pardoned Arpaio.
That would imply he doesn't have a micro-penis.
Well, he is well capable of getting his foot up to his mouth so treading on his own crotch should not be a problem.
You're right. He probably walks like a crab.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 29, 2017, 04:18:02 AM
Will Trump be impeached? I doubt it, despite the fact that el Trumpo is making America a bit of a laughing stock* kicking him out would result in a (hopefully temporary) near theocracy. Which is worse to you guys? The rock or the hard place?

* The UK under May is not doing so well in terms of international reputation either, but it is a matter of scale.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on August 29, 2017, 10:28:25 PM
I think he will be, but only once he's no longer a useful idiot to the Republicans. My guess is after the midterms, when they'll hopefully get their asses kicked. Unless Mueller's investigation finds something really damning, like the piss tape, hard evidence of money laundering through his properties, or the person he killed to make his hair stay like that.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 30, 2017, 02:46:08 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-knew-moscow-tower-proposal-campaign-lawyer/story?id=49472342

Quote
Four months into his campaign for president of the United States, Donald Trump signed a letter of intent to pursue a Trump Tower–style building development in Moscow, according to a statement from the Trump Organization’s then–chief counsel, Michael Cohen.

Quote
“To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Trump was never in contact with anyone about this proposal other than me on three occasions, including signing a nonbinding letter of intent in 2015,” his statement says.

While it fell through, the intent to do business with Russia was still there.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 30, 2017, 03:16:05 PM
I was wondering if this was going to be some stupid thing.

But it does leave room for the development of the relationship between Putin and Donald. After all they were sending him information to incriminate Hillary. It wasn't really anything he did that she didn't at this point when Trump was going over the building opportunity.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on August 30, 2017, 05:24:14 PM
I was wondering if this was going to be some stupid thing.

But it does leave room for the development of the relationship between Putin and Donald. After all they were sending him information to incriminate Hillary.
Mostly, it's just another thing for the pile.

Quote from: Arturo
It wasn't really anything he did that she didn't at this point when Trump was going over the building opportunity.
I've read this a few times, but I can't figure out what it means. Hillary wasn't intending to do business with in other countries during her run for president. So it is something he did that Hillary didn't. And it's very important to tell the difference between getting paid to go speak somewhere, and entering into a long term legal agreement with one or more other entities.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: God on August 30, 2017, 05:57:46 PM
I know I'm sidetracking here but I rather interpret economic data. I guess that America is having major issues here:

"The largest service sector exports are travel and tourism, royalties and license fees, and transportation (including freight and port services)." (http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/the-service-sector-projections-and-current-stats/)

The service sector accounts for 79% of America's GDP in 2017. (trade.gov)

Basically, America relies so heavily on anything related to transports that when anything goes wrong there they got big problems. And climate change is just that. All the technology and knowledge and expertise are not sufficient I bet.

The problem with America is that it's part of their culture and I bet they see mobility as a form of freedom as well which in fact is just a deep cultural thing. And the inner part of culture is very very hard to change. It easily brings countries on the edge of domestic violence.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 30, 2017, 06:11:20 PM
I know I'm sidetracking here but I rather interpret economic data. I guess that America is having major issues here:

"The largest service sector exports are travel and tourism, royalties and license fees, and transportation (including freight and port services)." (http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/the-service-sector-projections-and-current-stats/)

The service sector accounts for 79% of America's GDP in 2017. (trade.gov)

Basically, America relies so heavily on anything related to transports that when anything goes wrong there they got big problems. And climate change is just that. All the technology and knowledge and expertise are not sufficient I bet.

The problem with America is that it's part of their culture and I bet they see mobility as a form of freedom as well which in fact is just a deep cultural thing. And the inner part of culture is very very hard to change. It easily brings countries on the edge of domestic violence.
The UK suffers from a similar problem, ever since Maggie (may she rot in hell) Thatcher virtually destroyed our industrial base. This tends to increase the poor-rich divide, a few service (especially financial) providers make a lot whilst the blue collars suffer.  Also it works whilst you can service external customers and create national income, but you don't get far rich swapping doing the laundry with your next door neighbour.

Isolationism is the potential death of service industries in terms of national income and both the US  and the UK are presently on a rail in that direction.

There are countries that would be happy to steal your, and our, places in the global services sector, possibly asking fewer questions about shady deals and where the tax is paid . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on August 31, 2017, 12:38:48 AM
I was wondering if this was going to be some stupid thing.

But it does leave room for the development of the relationship between Putin and Donald. After all they were sending him information to incriminate Hillary.
Mostly, it's just another thing for the pile.

Quote from: Arturo
It wasn't really anything he did that she didn't at this point when Trump was going over the building opportunity.
I've read this a few times, but I can't figure out what it means. Hillary wasn't intending to do business with in other countries during her run for president. So it is something he did that Hillary didn't. And it's very important to tell the difference between getting paid to go speak somewhere, and entering into a long term legal agreement with one or more other entities.

In Donald Jr's email he posted, the "incriminating" information was about supposed "business" with Russia.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 07, 2017, 09:57:56 PM
Oh, shit, I agreed with Bannon!

Paraphrased:

"I respect the cardinal, in matters doctrinal. In the matter of running the country he is just another guy."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 08, 2017, 08:24:50 PM
Something is up, it's too quiet, is it just the NK thing?

No-one has walked or been thrown out of the White House this week!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on September 08, 2017, 09:16:36 PM
Something is up, it's too quiet, is it just the NK thing?

No-one has walked or been thrown out of the White House this week!

Hurricanes. Trump loves crisis. When these have passed, he'll create a new one. (or the old ones will resurface)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 08, 2017, 10:13:28 PM
Something is up, it's too quiet, is it just the NK thing?

No-one has walked or been thrown out of the White House this week!

Hurricanes. Trump loves crisis. When these have passed, he'll create a new one. (or the old ones will resurface)

Damn! HTF did I forget that!  :picard facepalm:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 14, 2017, 05:31:05 PM
Spicer speaks.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 17, 2017, 09:39:42 PM
America may re-negotiate themselves back into the Paris Accord. (Under the right terms.)

Is another corner of Trump's personal policy, and maybe authority, crumbling?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 18, 2017, 10:32:45 PM
America may re-negotiate themselves back into the Paris Accord. (Under the right terms.)

Is another corner of Trump's personal policy, and maybe authority, crumbling?

Funny how quickly he turns lol. Fox News is still towting as if he is a strong man leader with their head lines like "Trump Achieving His Agenda" and I remember with every Republican President, they always say he keeps his promises.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 19, 2017, 02:19:23 AM
Yeah, and Murdoch wants to bring something like Fux News to the UK. Another good reason not to have TV!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 19, 2017, 04:03:57 AM
Yeah, and Murdoch wants to bring something like Fux News to the UK. Another good reason not to have TV!

I keep trying to convince my Dad of this but I think he just lives in the moment for theses kinds of things. He linda plays the moment if you get what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on September 19, 2017, 02:27:42 PM
Well, we can only hope that Trump doesn't embarrass us too much when he speaks before the UN General Assembly. I'm sure he will, but I'm hopeful, or even expectant that other world leaders will step up and fill the giant void left by this idiot.

At the very least his appearance and whatever sentences he is able to put together should give all of the late night comedy shows some good fodder, so there is that.

(https://i.imgur.com/rnsxfr1.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 19, 2017, 02:35:26 PM
Well, we can only hope that Trump doesn't embarrass us too much when he speaks before the UN General Assembly. I'm sure he will, but I'm hopeful, or even expectant that other world leaders will step up and fill the giant void left by this idiot.

At the very least his appearance and whatever sentences he is able to put together should give all of the late night comedy shows some good fodder, so there is that.

(https://i.imgur.com/rnsxfr1.jpg)

He called for the UN to be reformed.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 19, 2017, 02:40:56 PM
Well, we can only hope that Trump doesn't embarrass us too much when he speaks before the UN General Assembly. I'm sure he will, but I'm hopeful, or even expectant that other world leaders will step up and fill the giant void left by this idiot.

At the very least his appearance and whatever sentences he is able to put together should give all of the late night comedy shows some good fodder, so there is that.

(https://i.imgur.com/rnsxfr1.jpg)

He called for the UN to be reformed.

Which is probably not so bad an idea. Bet he was reading from a script written by someone with sense. Compared to his unfettered utterings all speech writers have sense.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 19, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
Well, we can only hope that Trump doesn't embarrass us too much when he speaks before the UN General Assembly. I'm sure he will, but I'm hopeful, or even expectant that other world leaders will step up and fill the giant void left by this idiot.

At the very least his appearance and whatever sentences he is able to put together should give all of the late night comedy shows some good fodder, so there is that.

(https://i.imgur.com/rnsxfr1.jpg)

He called for the UN to be reformed.

Which is probably not so bad an idea. Bet he was reading from a script written by someone with sense. Compared to his unfettered utterings all speech writers have sense.

People also boasted him for donating $1 million to the hurricane harvey recovery effort. This is the same guy who called a million dollars "a small loan". Not only that but that does not put a dent in the relief effort. He probably could have spared more money too.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 19, 2017, 03:34:06 PM
Well, we can only hope that Trump doesn't embarrass us too much when he speaks before the UN General Assembly. I'm sure he will, but I'm hopeful, or even expectant that other world leaders will step up and fill the giant void left by this idiot.

At the very least his appearance and whatever sentences he is able to put together should give all of the late night comedy shows some good fodder, so there is that.
He called for the UN to be reformed.

Which is probably not so bad an idea. Bet he was reading from a script written by someone with sense. Compared to his unfettered utterings all speech writers have sense.

People also boasted him for donating $1 million to the hurricane harvey recovery effort. This is the same guy who called a million dollars "a small loan". Not only that but that does not put a dent in the relief effort. He probably could have spared more money too.
Apples and pairs, Artuto. I am not saying the man is not a shit of the highest order but I do think that the UN is long overdue for a makeover. It dies tendvto be a "talking shop" and, jnfirtunstely, will slways retain a degree if that for as long as there are opposing ideologies on the councils and committees. Abd tryingvto getnopposing ideologies working in concert is its whole reason for being. It takes the threat of a rogue nuclear power to come close to making this happen the way it should.

Behind the scenes there is almost certainly incredible waste and some corruption, not to mention petty obstructive inter-personal and inter-departmental politics. Trump has yet to even start on draining the Washington swamp, I would not trust him to drain this one objectively.

That does not make that particular aspect of his speech wrong. The UN needs an update.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 20, 2017, 01:28:19 PM
I wasn't criticizing your take on it. Just putting out there since it was related.

Anywho, I agree he might be spouting someone else's words. And my issue with that, if it is true, the "reforming the UN" idea might be a way to slip in something that is not supposed to be there. Shoot, they might even kick us out.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on September 20, 2017, 02:04:45 PM
Yeah, and he also threatened to "totally destroy" North Korea and said most of the world is going to hell. Present country excluded, of course.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 20, 2017, 02:06:37 PM
I wasn't criticizing your take on it. Just putting out there since it was related.

Anywho, I agree he might be spouting someone else's words. And my issue with that, if it is true, the "reforming the UN" idea might be a way to slip in something that is not supposed to be there. Shoot, they might even kick us out.

Yeah, but I am now thinking that the beligerence was all his own. He said that America would totally destroy N. Korea. A more seasoned national leader might have said, "We will totally destroy N. Korea's ability to strike another nation in any way and do our utmost, including further violent action, to ensure they never develop that ability again."

That implies an overwhelming initial attack and the further promise of violence to come if they do not behave. That latter part may be rhetorical. Now... China eould not be happy, wipe out a lot of Korea's military and industrial base would mean a flood of refugees over the border. S.Korea would not wish a flood in their direction either - too much chance of "moles" coming over to cause problems.

Of course, should "Rocketman" get killed the N Koreans might just sigh in relief and turn on those who oppressed them - hoping for aid later...but I doubt that. His desire to equal the US in arms is never goingvto happen, it would take only a fraction of the US nuclear reserves to turn most of inhabitable N Korea into a glowing, glassy wilderness. But that would certainly invite China, and probably Russia, to a global party.

Unfortunately we live in interesting times.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on September 20, 2017, 06:08:54 PM
Unfortunately we live in interesting times.

Indeed, the Chinese curse has come upon us.  No way to predict what is going to happen in the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 20, 2017, 06:39:20 PM
Unfortunately we live in interesting times.

Indeed, the Chinese curse has come upon us.  No way to predict what is going to happen in the next couple of years.

But I have this horrible feeling it ain't gonna be all that good. And that from a life long optimist. China was hsppy to clsim Tubet becsyse they had no modern armed forces and Mao The Dung was not against interfering in another nation's internal affairs. The present bunch in power are not so prone to interfere, it bothers them not to give give all kinds if aid and nasty toys to the nastiest of regimes. So long as it does not boomerang on them.

However, they also realise they need the rest of the world to trade with, to employ and feed their ever growing population that also increasingly crave Western style goodies. So perhaps if not exactly tied their hands may just be wringing a little. It was once said that "diplomatically controlling" China, as the West once did, was like holding a tiger by the tail - perhaps the party now know how that feels regarding their own people.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 20, 2017, 06:46:42 PM
Or maybe they will be the ones "diplomatically controlling" the US or the rest of the west.

Trump fails as a diplomat and let's face it, he fails at almost everything except mobilizing nazi/kkk terrorists.

If there were ever anyone needing precision-like humbeling kick(s) to the face, it would be the US. And China would be the one capable of doing it. Bring them to their knees, but not to their graves.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 20, 2017, 08:41:01 PM
Or maybe they will be the ones "diplomatically controlling" the US or the rest of the west.

Trump fails as a diplomat and let's face it, he fails at almost everything except mobilizing nazi/kkk terrorists.

If there were ever anyone needing precision-like humbeling kick(s) to the face, it would be the US. And China would be the one capable of doing it. Bring them to their knees, but not to their graves.
China's greatest need is resources - minerals, energy and food - that is why they have persuaded so many African countries  to swap minerals, oil and agricultural land for, often badly built, "modern" infrastructure (whilst employing hardly any locals on these projects nor buying food etc from them). Thus they "sell" their own future for something they may not be able to use later. Like putting yourself in so deep a debt buying the car that you cannot afford the fuel to run it.

So, they have already bought a good bit of American real estate and debt. If they start buying agricultural land start worrying, all that produce may be exported back home to feed the ever growing masses. China has maybe reached the point where it cannot support its population with its own produce.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackperkowski/2014/09/25/chinas-growing-food-problemopportunity/#67c030054811
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on September 21, 2017, 07:02:45 AM
Hilarious!

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on September 21, 2017, 04:13:09 PM
^^^^
That is funny.  :lol:

...But it's also sad...
 :cryandrun:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on September 21, 2017, 04:33:08 PM
Hilarious!


Not only hilarious but also very, very clever!

Unfortunately too close to the truth as well . . . . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on September 22, 2017, 01:05:05 AM
Some parodies are just too scary.   :fingerwag:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on September 22, 2017, 01:58:02 AM
It looks like the "tension" between donald and kim just turns out to be a shouting match
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 08, 2017, 06:19:57 PM
Missed the name on the news, and can't find a link, but a senator has seemingly described the Trump White House as, "An adult daycare centre with a shortage of staff."

Later:

Quote
Corker fires back: Trump's White House 'has become an adult day care center'

Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) fired back at President Trump after his criticism on Sunday, calling Trump’s White House “an adult day care center.”

“It's a shame the White House has become an adult day care center,” Corker said. “Someone obviously missed their shift this morning.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/354447-corker-fires-back-at-trump-its-a-shame-the-white-house-has-become-an-adult
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Firebird on October 09, 2017, 03:34:33 AM
Bob Corker, a Republican senator who's not running for reelection, so he feels free to speak his mind. Also claims most in his party feel this way too.
Kind of scary that the rest are afraid to say anything because  there's so many Trump fans who might vote for a primary opponent even more crazy than they already are.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 09, 2017, 04:45:02 AM
Bob Corker, a Republican senator who's not running for reelection, so he feels free to speak his mind. Also claims most in his party feel this way too.
Kind of scary that the rest are afraid to say anything because  there's so many Trump fans who might vote for a primary opponent even more crazy than they already are.

Yes, one commentator said that Corker was a respected moderate and that this "'outburst" was out of character. There was also some comment about him saying that "the generals" on the White House staff were the only people that made it work. I had been wondering if some if the later appointees had bern "'imposed" on Ttump.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on October 11, 2017, 04:02:11 PM
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on October 11, 2017, 07:13:38 PM
^^^
(https://m.popkey.co/4e1692/bb4r_f-maxage-0.gif)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on October 11, 2017, 07:21:09 PM
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/918112884630093825
Quote
With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!

Looks like Donald wants to trample on the first amendment.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 11, 2017, 09:40:25 PM
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/918112884630093825
Quote
With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!

Looks like Donald wants to trample on the first amendment.

Not the first shot he's taken at it, and some people still don't understand the comparisons to Hitler.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 09:43:56 PM
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/918112884630093825
Quote
With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!

Looks like Donald wants to trample on the first amendment.

Not the first shot he's taken at it, and some people still don't understand the comparisons to Hitler.

Perhaps they should invoke Putin, Erdoğan or Nicolás Maduro as being Trump's next level?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on October 12, 2017, 05:05:49 AM
The Donald insists that the media is a pack of conscienceless liars. " Fake news" indeed.  I think it ironic that he, himself, is a well demonstrated lying sack of shit
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Papasito Bruno on October 13, 2017, 03:41:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YqTpzSO.jpg)


My feeling's exactly...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on October 13, 2017, 08:56:10 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/trump-says-he-met-with-the-president-of-the-virgin-islands/2017/10/13/7d3d9362-b024-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_video.html

So Trump met with the president of the Virgin Islands...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Harmonie on October 14, 2017, 12:32:20 AM
^^The Virgin Islands don't have Donald Trump as president? Sounds like a good place. =P

This wasn't the only ridiculous thing Trump said today. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/trump-values-voters-summit/index.html) He also ensured us all that we'd be able to say Merry Christmas again. Saying that people only avoid saying Merry Christmas to be politically correct, and that he's protecting Judeo-Christian values.

...Yes... He actually said Judeo-Christian values while speaking of how everyone should have to say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays during a month where Jews celebrate a holiday, too.

Trump, the manifestation of the hypocrisy of the Republican, conservatives, Evangelicals/Religious Right that never stops giving.

What's next, forced teacher/staff led prayer in school being disguised under "the right for children to pray at school"?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 15, 2017, 09:12:42 PM
Quote
Tillerson says in US interest to stay in Iran nuclear deal (https://www.ft.com/content/c01ba300-b1c2-11e7-aa26-bb002965bce8)

As ever confusing stories out of the Trump Shite House. Who to believe, the President and Comander in Chief or one of his secretaries? My money is on the latter on past performance - so what use is the so-called president?

If it weren't for the fact he is the man with his finger on the nuclear button this would be a laugh.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on October 16, 2017, 03:46:02 PM
^^The Virgin Islands don't have Donald Trump as president? Sounds like a good place. =P

This wasn't the only ridiculous thing Trump said today. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/trump-values-voters-summit/index.html) He also ensured us all that we'd be able to say Merry Christmas again. Saying that people only avoid saying Merry Christmas to be politically correct, and that he's protecting Judeo-Christian values.

...Yes... He actually said Judeo-Christian values while speaking of how everyone should have to say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays during a month where Jews celebrate a holiday, too.

Trump, the manifestation of the hypocrisy of the Republican, conservatives, Evangelicals/Religious Right that never stops giving.

What's next, forced teacher/staff led prayer in school being disguised under "the right for children to pray at school"?
Oh the attack on Christmas, like not saying "merry Christmas" is somehow an attack.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2017, 05:46:06 PM
Trump is driving public discourse into the gutter.  He’s the most divisive President since since the 1800s,
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Harmonie on October 16, 2017, 09:20:19 PM
Oh the attack on Christmas, like not saying "merry Christmas" is somehow an attack.

Oh, but that's how Religious Right thinking goes. If they're not being pandered to in every single way they are being persecuted.

Trump is driving public discourse into the gutter.  He’s the most divisive President since since the 1800s,

(My apologies, this is a tangent on the term "divisive" that has absolutely nothing to do with your usage of it)


Hm... "Divisive". I know you are obviously not referring to it in that way - so do not take this is a rant at what you posted, but instead as a big tangent - but I have come to not really care for that term alongside "Unity". These terms have been used by Trump worshipers ever since he was "elected".

People who were hating on Obama and saying he wasn't their president turned around and called for "unity" when Trump was "chosen", and called those of us who don't like him "divisive".

I don't like either term for that reason. "Unity" is only a good thing when people are unified behind a good cause. I think we all know what happens when unity goes wrong (Nazi Germany, if I have to specify :P). While I don't think Trump is quite comparable to Hitler he is still horrible and extremely harmful/dangerous. I said it back then and I'll say it again, I will not unify behind evil.

If I'm being "divisive" by calling out Trump for what he is, so be it.

Anyway, again, sorry for this rant that had really nothing to do with your post. Just had to post it somewhere. It made me so mad seeing all of those calls for "unity" and hate for "divisiveness" from people who couldn't have cared less for those concepts when Obama was president. It just goes back to my rant recently about how a lot of Republicans do not have nuanced views on these concepts at all, and act like protesting is American, the right thing to do, under a Democrat president, and then universally disrespectful, un-American, etc. under a Republican president. It is the exact same problem with the terms "unity" and "divisiveness". They don't care about these concepts, and feel like they can fly them as a flag of the ultimate "right" at certain times, but then turn around and disregard them when it's not convenient for them.

How can thinking people not see how inconsistent that is?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on October 17, 2017, 02:48:10 PM
Oh the attack on Christmas, like not saying "merry Christmas" is somehow an attack.

Oh, but that's how Religious Right thinking goes. If they're not being pandered to in every single way they are being persecuted.
(https://i.imgur.com/t7mpKLF.jpg)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 26, 2017, 03:53:23 PM
Enough ant-Trump videos to keep you occupied for a while . . .

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/corker-interview-manu-best-lines/index.html

Plus

Donald Trump slammed by Republicans Bob Corker and Jeff Flake for his 'disregard of truth' (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-25/donald-trump-trades-insults-with-republican-senator-bob-corker/9082388)

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on October 26, 2017, 04:13:37 PM
Yet both of those Republican senators will very likely continue to vote in aid of the Trump agenda. Corker and Flake, as far as I can tell, doesn't disagree with what Trump would like to do. They'd just rather not have to march behind a malignant buffoon. Links below to the record of how these two have voted in line with Trump.

Bob Corker "Trump score" 86.3% (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/bob-corker/)

Jeff Flake "Trump score" 90.0% (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/jeff-flake/)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on October 30, 2017, 06:10:13 PM
Paul Manafort charges leave President's 'fake news' defence exposed
The Donald's common claims about the probe haven't added up so far. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-investigation-paul-manafort-fake-news-defence-robert-mueller-fbi-collusion-media-a8027596.html)

Quote
The independent investigation into Trump-Russia collusion just made its most serious move since it began in May. The Washington Post reported on Monday that Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, and his former business partner, Rick Gates, have been ordered to surrender to federal authorities.

Both men are charged with 12 counts relating to financial crimes, including conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money and making false statements.

In other words, this Russia investigation is very real.

But, as El Trumpo has claimed, the charges have (so far) nothing to do with his actual campaign. However he did hire a what appears to be a lying and corrupt individual. Maybe not so different to some of his other hirings . . . So, no "due diligence" or vetting of prospective hirees, or were some of their sleazy tendencies an attractive qualification . . . Until they became public knowledge of course. Plausible deniability is a major sleaze tool.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on November 26, 2017, 08:17:38 AM
Quote
Trump furious with Ivanka for ‘special place in hell’ attack on Roy Moore now featured in Democratic campaign ad

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/trump-furious-with-ivanka-for-special-place-in-hell-attack-on-roy-moore-now-featured-in-democratic-campaign-ad/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 03, 2017, 10:17:32 PM
Another kayerbof crap has beennlaid - now zTrump's lawyer ssys he wrote the tweet that implied zTrump knew about Flynn lying to tbe FBI.

Now, to my jntutored mjnd thst means:
A. The lawyer is incompetent in that a lawyer's job is to be 100% sure that whatever his client "says" means exactly what it says, that there is no doubt or ambiguity.
B. The the lawyer is taking the blame in an attempt to protect his client, that the lawyer's admission is a lie.

My gut goes for the B.

Move two is to divert attention from this with his latest tirade against the FBI and its "'lying" former director, sacked by him. I hope Mueller is taking his time to construct a solid case of fact rather than give Trump time to get out of jail and still pass "Go".  So far Ttump seems to be digging himself a deeper abyss to fall into...  But then, this is politics, truth has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on December 04, 2017, 03:57:47 AM
Not what we want to read but perhaps has some truth.....https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/trump-impeachment/547358/
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 04, 2017, 04:24:50 AM
Not what we want to read but perhaps has some truth.....https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/trump-impeachment/547358/

People need to remember that Clinton was impeached too, but that didn't end his Presidency.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on December 04, 2017, 03:34:25 PM
It's also good to remember that Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about doing something legal.

Trump is already violating the emoluments clause, and many of his campaign staff, transition team, and appointees have lied under oath (sometimes multiple times), about their dealings with Russian agents.

I mean, yeah even if Turnip does get impeached,  it doesn't mean he has to resign or even get removed from office. If people want to make a change, then they have to vote in the next few elections.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 04, 2017, 04:50:19 PM
Not sure about impeachment but his side may be getting a bit concerned about his behaviour:

Quote
Trump tweets about Russia probe spark warnings from lawmakers
...
“I would just say this with the president: There’s an ongoing criminal investigation,” Graham [Lindsey Graham (R)] said on the CBS program “Face the Nation.”

“You tweet and comment regarding ongoing criminal investigations at your own peril,” he added.
...

Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia/trump-tweets-about-russia-probe-spark-warnings-from-lawmakers-idUSKBN1DX0TY)


Perhaps the GOP is bothered about his effdct on their future?

Quote
Trump's limited appeal a warning sign for Republicans ahead of 2018 elections

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic election victories in Virginia and New Jersey showed Republicans losing more ground in suburban areas, where President Donald Trump’s unpopularity could cost them dearly in next year’s congressional races.

Reuters (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-trump-analysis/trumps-limited-appeal-a-warning-sign-for-republicans-ahead-of-2018-elections-idUKKBN1D838P)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on December 05, 2017, 04:58:55 AM
I voted for Obama two times.  I do not suppose that he was the best president ever but he was damned sure not the worst either.  "Barry" did not offend us daily with dumb ass tweets, he did not boast about grabbing pussies, ...............if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have done much more to the benefit of our society. I like to think that he would have.   

Here is a guy who has a few words to say about our last president and about the assholes who demean him without knowing anything about how the government works or how morality is assessed. https://www.popsugar.com/news/Personal-Essay-Barack-Obama-Presidency-43654092


Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 05:23:24 AM
I voted for Obama two times.  I do not suppose that he was the best president ever but he was damned sure not the worst either.  "Barry" did not offend us daily with dumb ass tweets, he did not boast about grabbing pussies, ...............if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have done much more to the benefit of our society. I like to think that he would have.   
...
Is the word, tainted, appropriate, here?  :notsure:
Quote
...if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have...
Some synonyms of the word: contaminate, pollute, adulterate, infect, blight, spoil, soil, ruin, destroy.

I'm just wondering...but then, again, you know me...I'm a little crazy sometimes.  :shifty:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 05, 2017, 05:24:39 AM
It's also good to remember that Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about doing something legal.

That's true, I keep forgetting if there were issues other than the stained dress because that on its own seemed such an absurd thing to make a public fuss about.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 05, 2017, 05:28:23 AM
I voted for Obama two times.  I do not suppose that he was the best president ever but he was damned sure not the worst either.  "Barry" did not offend us daily with dumb ass tweets, he did not boast about grabbing pussies, ...............if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have done much more to the benefit of our society. I like to think that he would have.   
...
Is the word, tainted, appropriate, here?  :notsure:
Quote
...if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have...
Some synonyms of the word: contaminate, pollute, adulterate, infect, blight, spoil, soil, ruin, destroy.

I'm just wondering...but then, again, you know me...I'm a little crazy sometimes.  :shifty:

I think it is since it accurately reflects the attitude of his adversaries.

And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 06:46:59 AM
I voted for Obama two times.  I do not suppose that he was the best president ever but he was damned sure not the worst either.  "Barry" did not offend us daily with dumb ass tweets, he did not boast about grabbing pussies, ...............if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have done much more to the benefit of our society. I like to think that he would have.   
...
Is the word, tainted, appropriate, here?  :notsure:
Quote
...if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have...
Some synonyms of the word: contaminate, pollute, adulterate, infect, blight, spoil, soil, ruin, destroy.

I'm just wondering...but then, again, you know me...I'm a little crazy sometimes.  :shifty:

I think it is since it accurately reflects the attitude of his adversaries.
I see.  :chin:

And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 05, 2017, 07:00:11 AM
I mentally tagged a sort of unsaid qualifier onto Icarus' " ..tainted..." comment along the lines of, "...in the oppinion of some."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 07:15:45 AM
I mentally tagged a sort of unsaid qualifier onto Icarus' " ..tainted..." comment along the lines of, "...in the oppinion of some."

Yes. Maybe you're right.
Maybe this:
Quote
...............if he had
Means:
Quote
"...in the oppinion of some."

Communication --It is a pain in the eye.
 :picard facepalm:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 05, 2017, 11:06:29 AM
I mentally tagged a sort of unsaid qualifier onto Icarus' " ..tainted..." comment along the lines of, "...in the oppinion of some."

Yes. Maybe you're right.
Maybe this:
Quote
...............if he had
Means:
Quote
"...in the oppinion of some."

Communication --It is a pain in the eye.
 :picard facepalm:

Icarus also voted for Obama twice and finished with a link from a man defending him. But I know, all too well, how possible it is to see something that can be interpretted as a slight then get blinkered vision where the "offending words" seem to be in bright red, 36pt, bold, Arial black. The knee doth jerk mightily!

One of the reasons that I sometimes wait up to half an hour after writing a quick riposte. I reread it, reflect on it, then edit it into still strong but more considered form!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 05, 2017, 03:46:37 PM
It seems to be getting closer to home...

Quote
Mueller has subpoenaed Deutsche Bank for information on Trump and his family[/b]

*Robert Mueller, the special counsel investigating President Donald Trump's campaign's ties to Russia, has subpoenaed Deutsche Bank for data on accounts held by Trump and his family.
*Deutsche Bank has loaned the Trump Organization millions for real-estate ventures.
I*n June, Deutsche Bank rejected demands by US House Democrats to provide details on Trump's finances.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/mueller-reportedly-subpoenaed-deutsche-bank-for-information-on-trumps-2017-12?r=US&IR=T
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 04:12:49 PM
I mentally tagged a sort of unsaid qualifier onto Icarus' " ..tainted..." comment along the lines of, "...in the oppinion of some."

Yes. Maybe you're right.
Maybe this:
Quote
...............if he had
Means:
Quote
"...in the oppinion of some."

Communication --It is a pain in the eye.
 :picard facepalm:

Icarus also voted for Obama twice and finished with a link from a man defending him. But I know, all too well, how possible it is to see something that can be interpretted as a slight then get blinkered vision where the "offending words" seem to be in bright red, 36pt, bold, Arial black. The knee doth jerk mightily!

One of the reasons that I sometimes wait up to half an hour after writing a quick riposte. I reread it, reflect on it, then edit it into still strong but more considered form!

I don't think anyone is offended, here, I was just confused about who said what. --That's all. Icarus said some things, and "...in the oppinion of some." were statements made by someone else. I think it's clear now.

There are no "words" that seem to be in bright red, 36pt, bold, Arial black...only one word: "tainted."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 05, 2017, 09:13:08 PM
And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?

It's glorious.  It's beyond mere good or bad, it's an attribute of the legendary.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2017, 09:14:56 PM
And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?

It's glorious.  It's beyond mere good or bad, it's an attribute of the legendary.

If Mags doesn't want the label I'll take it. :P
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 09:29:55 PM
And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?

It's glorious.  It's beyond mere good or bad, it's an attribute of the legendary.
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 05, 2017, 09:31:13 PM
And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?

It's glorious.  It's beyond mere good or bad, it's an attribute of the legendary.

If Mags doesn't want the label I'll take it. :P
No...
(https://i.imgur.com/m6GxYT4.gif)
She gave it to me...
You can't have it.


 :grin:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2017, 09:43:04 PM
And you're not just a little crazy -- you're gloriously mad.
:notsure: Is this...good...Or...bad?

It's glorious.  It's beyond mere good or bad, it's an attribute of the legendary.

If Mags doesn't want the label I'll take it. :P
No...
(https://i.imgur.com/m6GxYT4.gif)
She gave it to me...
You can't have it.


 :grin:

:sad sigh:

:P
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 06, 2017, 12:21:12 AM
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:

You're welcome.  Think Cyrano de Bergerac, without the complaining about the nose.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 06, 2017, 12:25:37 AM

If Mags doesn't want the label I'll take it. :P
No...
(https://i.imgur.com/m6GxYT4.gif)
She gave it to me...
You can't have it.


 :grin:

OK, this is hilarious -- "Stand back, teacup human."

Quote
:sad sigh:

:P

We'll think of one for you -- shouldn't be hard.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 06, 2017, 12:32:44 AM
Quote
:sad sigh:

:P

We'll think of one for you -- shouldn't be hard.

:yes!:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 06, 2017, 02:37:04 AM
Quote
:sad sigh:

:P

We'll think of one for you -- shouldn't be hard.

:yes!:

I think it should have the word "splendid" in it.  Splendidly aberrant?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 06, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:

You're welcome.  Think Cyrano de Bergerac, without the complaining about the nose.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9l7ZKOmbGQZwI/giphy.gif)
OK.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 06, 2017, 03:40:57 AM

:sad sigh:

:P

 :hug:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 06, 2017, 04:46:54 AM
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:

You're welcome.  Think Cyrano de Bergerac, without the complaining about the nose.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9l7ZKOmbGQZwI/giphy.gif)
OK.

I love Cyrano -- he's quite gloriously mad.  Warrior, poet, lover, philosopher; he was magnificent, if a little obsessed about his nose.  No one is perfect.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 06, 2017, 05:17:07 AM
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:

You're welcome.  Think Cyrano de Bergerac, without the complaining about the nose.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9l7ZKOmbGQZwI/giphy.gif)
OK.

I love Cyrano -- he's quite gloriously mad.  Warrior, poet, lover, philosopher; he was magnificent, if a little obsessed about his nose.  No one is perfect.

Of course, no one is.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on December 06, 2017, 06:34:05 AM
Whoa....Going back a page or two I see that I have made a terrible choice of words or that I did not explain that the word was to be taken as if  spoken by people who did not like Obama.   "Tainted" was a bad word. I apologize if that has been interpreted as a slight. That was definitely not the intent. 

I could have explained that there was, for 8 years, a great deal of criticism of the then president that was based on bullshit claims by lying bastards like Hannity or Limbaugh or crackpot conspiracy notions invented by tiny minds.  All that probably influenced the hillbilly state of mind but was not the biggest reason for the attitude of  Obama detractors..  The grim reality is that we live in a racist society, closeted racism of course, but a reality no matter how you slice it.. Much of that society could not quite get past the fact that the duly elected president has a  somewhat darker skin color.  That is a clumsy explanation of what I meant to convey by using the word;tainted.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 06, 2017, 11:39:08 AM
:tellmemore:
Wow!!!

Thank you.  :hug:

You're welcome.  Think Cyrano de Bergerac, without the complaining about the nose.


OK.

I love Cyrano -- he's quite gloriously mad.  Warrior, poet, lover, philosopher; he was magnificent, if a little obsessed about his nose.  No one is perfect.

Of course Mr Magoo (ye I did research the proper spelling of that) was the definitive Cyranose.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 06, 2017, 12:28:06 PM
I voted for Obama two times.  I do not suppose that he was the best president ever but he was damned sure not the worst either.  "Barry" did not offend us daily with dumb ass tweets, he did not boast about grabbing pussies, ...............if he had not been tainted by being half black he could have done much more to the benefit of our society. I like to think that he would have.   
...
Is the word, tainted, appropriate, here?  :notsure:

Yes it is appropriate, Ic is calling it out.

Hillary was tainted by being a woman
But Sarah P was and is a womanly woman
Hillary was tainted by being an intelligent woman
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on December 06, 2017, 01:58:46 PM
Does anyone remember the simpler times, when people were losing their shit because the president asked for fancy mustard or wore a tan suit?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on December 06, 2017, 07:15:37 PM
Whoa....Going back a page or two I see that I have made a terrible choice of words or that I did not explain that the word was to be taken as if  spoken by people who did not like Obama.   "Tainted" was a bad word. I apologize if that has been interpreted as a slight. That was definitely not the intent. 

I could have explained that there was, for 8 years, a great deal of criticism of the then president that was based on bullshit claims by lying bastards like Hannity or Limbaugh or crackpot conspiracy notions invented by tiny minds.  All that probably influenced the hillbilly state of mind but was not the biggest reason for the attitude of  Obama detractors..  The grim reality is that we live in a racist society, closeted racism of course, but a reality no matter how you slice it.. Much of that society could not quite get past the fact that the duly elected president has a  somewhat darker skin color.  That is a clumsy explanation of what I meant to convey by using the word;tainted.

It's OK, Icarus, we all make mistakes.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on December 06, 2017, 07:17:15 PM
It is Curious that  BBC would make this video.  Here is some of the commentary about the closet racism that I mentioned in a previous post .  Perhaps I should not use the word closet. We are generally not deliberately racist, many of us just do not realize that we have some issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dykgtGv8ozs

It is not my intent to start a controversy about this subject.  It might merit a few peaceful words however..........or we can move on. 
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 06, 2017, 08:54:47 PM
Thanks for that, Icarus, but - somehow - I do not find myself understanding the problem any better after viewing than before!

I do not think of myself as racist yet I once found myself getting very fed up with certain "black" cultural things - particularly involving loud music. However now that I have white neighbours who play loud reggae, beebop (I think) and tecno music I think it was more a "cultural" dislike than a "racial" one. Regardless of skin colour a lousy neighbour is still a lousy neighbour. And a good one is to be valued!

There seems to have been a degree of "cultural spread" in this country. I listened to two teenage lads talking, from their pronounciations and word use I assumed they were black, only to be surprised when they turned out to be white. There have been other signs in terms of music and even dreadlocks! But I have no doubt that there is still prejudice, casual and aggressive, perhaps both ways.

Still a bit confused...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 06, 2017, 11:47:52 PM
It is Curious that  BBC would make this video.  Here is some of the commentary about the closet racism that I mentioned in a previous post .  Perhaps I should not use the word closet. We are generally not deliberately racist, many of us just do not realize that we have some issues.

It's true, there's a difference between conscious and unconscious racism -- which I sometimes think of as racism with a big R and racism with a little r.

The big R is stuff anybody can see is racism -- the KKK, Nazis marching in the streets chanting for genocide, that sort of thing. 

The small r stuff are things which no one raised in a racist society like ours can possibly avoid becoming infected with -- automatic assumptions about what any black person will or will not like (a common one I've found is "black people don't read/watch SF"), clutching your purse without realizing it if blacks are around (to my shame, I found myself doing that recently), judging a black more harshly than a white for the same thing. 

The small r stuff may not be as nefarious as the big R stuff, but it's damaging in its own way and, I think even harder to root out because it's harder to see -- esp. when it's your small stuff.  Such as the purse incident; if I hadn't looked down at my grocery list I'd never even seen my hand tightened around my purse and known I was doing that. 

What's really awful, and to my thinking an example of how society gets false assumptions dug into our unconscious, is that of the three times I've had my purse snatched, it was a white guy who did it every time tho I lived in a multi-racial neighborhood.  I've never caught myself clutching my purse around groups of white men, even tho experience shows that's when I should be protecting it.  Small r racism.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on December 07, 2017, 03:21:16 PM
I'm just waiting for this kind of realization from the Turnip supporters.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 08, 2017, 12:12:26 PM
Intelligence, that's a taint.
Not only for women, truly.
George W, pretty vacant
Obama, intelligent, black
A dopey black Pres...
he might of been OK
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 08, 2017, 02:12:21 PM
Oh, goody, they are sending a man, Pence, who is an avowed evangelical and therefore almost certainly hoping for the "End Time," to try to convince the Palestinians that America recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a good idea.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on December 11, 2017, 11:35:59 PM
The hot news today is that several women have come out accusing the Donald of molesting them in the past.  The Me Too movement is gaining momentum.   We'll have to wait and see where that goes.

Something is not right when Billy Bush loses his job for being on the now famous bus (the grab "em by the pussy bus) while the mouthy braggart, Donald, got himself elected to the highest office of the land.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on December 12, 2017, 02:05:44 AM
Those accusations came out during the campaign after the infamous bus video was made public, but are getting some new life, which is a good thing.

However, the American people have spoken--President Bogus isn't guilty (at least according to Sarah Huckabee-Sanders). Of course the piece below is from Fake News CNN, so, you know, best to just ignore it.

"Sarah Sanders said the 2016 election ended the debate about Trump's treatment of women. Not exactly." | CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/trump-2016-sexual-assault-analysis/index.html)

Quote
On Thursday afternoon, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders was asked about Al Franken's description of President Donald Trump as "a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault."

Here's how she responded:

"The President addressed the comments back during the campaign. We feel strongly that the people of the country also addressed that when they elected Donald Trump president. I don't have anything to add."

OK.

There are things that are right in that statement by Sanders. And things that are totally and completely wrong.

[Continues . . . (http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/trump-2016-sexual-assault-analysis/index.html)]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 12, 2017, 02:56:56 AM
Does anyone remember the simpler times, when people were losing their shit because the president asked for fancy mustard or wore a tan suit?

I long for those days.  Do you remember when FOX threw a fit because Obama said "folks"?  No problem with 45 saying it, tho.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on December 12, 2017, 08:16:25 AM
Something is not right when Billy Bush loses his job for being on the now famous bus (the grab "em by the pussy bus) while the mouthy braggart, Donald, got himself elected to the highest office of the land.
On what we know I agree. Had Bush acted "better", confronting Trump over his actions, calling him out on his comments, he would almost certainly have got the sack and never worked in media again. I am guessing hell is a warm bath compared to Trump's vengeance.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on January 09, 2018, 08:40:58 PM
This isn't exactly only about Trump, this sheds a light on the GOP that reveals a lot of... complicity at best, treason at worst. Not just because of the testimony itself, but how the GOP tried to keep it wrapped up so they could keep lying about it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/sen-dianne-feinstein-unilaterally-releases-fusion-gps-testimony.html
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on January 09, 2018, 08:54:11 PM
Perhsps I should have named the theead, "Deeper into the Trump black hole" - seems to be dragging all kinds of stuff in.

Surely this must have exceeded Watergate on the conspiraciometer by now?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 10, 2018, 12:47:34 AM
Stupid Watergate has been a thing for like a year now.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on January 11, 2018, 11:17:52 PM
Wow... Really!? :felix:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/amp/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946#ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/amp/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946#ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946)
Quote
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump on Thursday referred to Haiti and African nations as "shithole countries" during a meeting with a bipartisan group of senators at the White House, a Democratic aide briefed on the meeting told NBC News.
...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on January 12, 2018, 04:10:08 AM
Wow... Really!? :felix:

After a bottle of a 2011 bottle of cabernet sauvignon wine, a little:  :devil2:, I've come to the following conclusion:
Some things, [stupidities], will not be dignified with an answer.  :levitate:

...Yet...


I hope this makes sence.  :notsure:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on January 12, 2018, 06:13:22 AM
Wow... Really!? :felix:

After a bottle of a 2011 bottle of cabernet sauvignon wine, a little:  :devil2:, I've come to the following conclusion:
Some things, [stupidities], will not be dignified with an answer.  :levitate:

...Yet...


I hope this makes sence.  :notsure:

In vino veritas
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on January 12, 2018, 06:44:29 AM
Wow... Really!? :felix:

After a bottle of a 2011 bottle of cabernet sauvignon wine, a little:  :devil2:, I've come to the following conclusion:
Some things, [stupidities], will not be dignified with an answer.  :levitate:

...Yet...


I hope this makes sence.  :notsure:

In vino veritas
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/be11c15e3b0175ddff9df78ba8fb0598/tenor.gif?itemid=5010434)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on January 12, 2018, 01:46:09 PM
Wow... Really!? :felix:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/amp/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946#ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/amp/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946#ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-referred-haiti-african-countries-shithole-nations-n836946)
Quote
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump on Thursday referred to Haiti and African nations as "shithole countries" during a meeting with a bipartisan group of senators at the White House, a Democratic aide briefed on the meeting told NBC News.
...
I mean, we already knew before he even ran for the Republican nomination that Trump was a racist. With constant access to Twitter, I'm only surprised that it took this long to say something this shitty. I'm more surprised that he hasn't said anything worse by now.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on February 28, 2018, 06:16:51 AM
Jared Kushner, Trump's right hand man, has had his security clearance reduced to that of an intern. This will make it virtually impossible for him to function in his "job" ("nepotic position" being a more accurate description.)

The BBC also mention, are mentionjng at this moment, the danger that some countries, including China and N. Korea, are seeking ways to manipulate Kushner due to his business interests and personal business financial problems. This man seems a present danger (just like his father-in-law) to America in this age of Internet intrigue and the manipulation of the mood and behaviour of the citizenry of the West, especially America, by covert means.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on February 28, 2018, 06:22:58 AM
He's going down. Let's hope he takes the Orange Nightmare with him!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on February 28, 2018, 02:06:47 PM
Kushner's lawyer said that his reduced security clearance will not interfere with his job duties. That's all well and good, but it puts some big questions in my head about it. If not have the security clearance isn't impeding his job duties, then why was he accessing classified information? Isn't classified information supposed to be on a need to know basis, and if what Kushner's lawyer says is true, then Kushner has been accessing classified information without a need to know.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on February 28, 2018, 08:34:12 PM
It's not going to affect Kushner's job... because the orange retard will just give him access to whatever he needs. I don't think Trump has the first clue about security.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 01, 2018, 02:59:25 PM
Another staffer stifled? Did she jump or was she pushed for annoying the Orange 'Orror?

Quote
Donald Trump reportedly berated his former White House communications director after she admitted to telling "white lies" on his behalf.

Hope Hicks resigned after testifying for nine hours before the House intelligence committee as part of the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

She told investigators that she occasionally had to tell white lies to appease the president, but insisted she told the truth about relevant Russian matters. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-hope-hicks-lies-resign-white-house-communications-director-russia-a8234156.html

According to the BBC this is the end of his fifth communucations person, can't yet verify that but here is a list of sackings and "resignations":

James Comey
FBI [didn't do what Trump wanted, did do what Trump did not want.]

Sally Yates
Acting US attorney general was fired by Mr Trump in January after she ordered Justice Department lawyers not to enforce Mr Trump's controversial immigration ban.

Michael Flynn
Mr Trump's national security adviser resigned in February after disclosures that he had discussed US sanctions on Russia with the Russian ambassador...

Preet Bharara
The former leading prosecutor claims he was sacked by Donald Trump in March after refusing an order from the attorney general to resign.

Walter Shaub 
The head of the US Office of Government Ethics stepped down in July before his five-year term was to end.

Michael Dubke 
The founder of Crossroads Media resigned as White House communications director in May. "The reasons for my departure are personal, but it has been my great honor to serve President Trump and this administration," said Mr Dubke, in an email to friends, reported by Politico.

Reince Priebus 
The former chairman of the Republican National Committee resigned as chief of staff at the end of July amid an internal power struggle involving director of communication Anthony Scaramucci.

Sean Spicer 
The White House press secretary, who was an experienced Republican operative, resigned on July 21, ending a turbulent tenure, after Mr Trump named Anthony Scaramucci as White House communications director.

Michael Short
The senior White House assistant press secretary was Mr Scaramucci's second victim. He resigned a few days following Mr Spicer's departure and shortly after Mr Scaramucci had told Politico that he planned to get rid of him.

Anthony Scaramucci
Anthony Scaramucci was fired as White House communications director after just 11 days on the job - and just hours after former Gen. John Kelly took over as President Donald Trump's new chief of staff.

Steve Bannon
Combative and unapologetic, Steve Bannon was fired as chief strategist on August 18.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/fired-donald-trump-has-sacked-has-resigned-time-president/

Unfortunately the article does not seem to be dated.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Harmonie on March 04, 2018, 04:36:58 PM
Donald Trump takes after China's Xi and thinks that "some day" America should try dictatorship, too. Naturally only under Trump or someone else as Republican and "intelligent" as him, because Crooked Hillary or something.

Link (https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/03/politics/trump-maralago-remarks/index.html)

You can't even make this crap up.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 04, 2018, 04:44:05 PM
Donald Trump takes after China's Xi and thinks that "some day" America should try dictatorship, too. Naturally only under Trump or someone else as Republican and "intelligent" as him, because Crooked Hillary or something.

Link (https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/03/politics/trump-maralago-remarks/index.html)

You can't even make this crap up.

OMG.  :eeew:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 04, 2018, 06:04:20 PM
Donald Trump takes after China's Xi and thinks that "some day" America should try dictatorship, too. Naturally only under Trump or someone else as Republican and "intelligent" as him, because Crooked Hillary or something.

Link (https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/03/politics/trump-maralago-remarks/index.html)

You can't even make this crap up.

Aw, c'mon, the Orange One was only joking!






Wasn't he?




Someone, anyone! Please say, "Yes."





Omigod!  :shocked:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 07, 2018, 03:55:26 PM
El Orange's Economic Advisor, Gary Cohn, has resigned over the tarriff situation. An expert on the BBC WS has said that the tarriff supporters set up their campaign without Cohn's knowledge and side-lined him.

So, internal intrigue rules in the Trump Shite House. The expert described it as a "reality show" but said there is a long list of people wanting to work there - echoing Trump's own words. But what is the character type and quality of these people - sickopants sychophants?

Quote
House in wake of tariff rift
Cohn, who had been rumored just weeks ago as a potential next chief of staff, will leave the White House in the wake of his fierce disagreement with the President's decision to impose tariffs on steel and aluminum imports. Cohn is expected to leave in the coming weeks, the White House said.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/06/politics/gary-cohn-white-house-tariffs/index.html
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 08, 2018, 10:18:06 PM
Sounds like the EU Commisioner for Trade, Cecelia Malström is, er, winding up a storm over Trumps tariff changes.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Sandra Craft on March 09, 2018, 01:40:06 AM
Sounds like the EU Commisioner for Trade, Cecelia Malström is, er, winding up a storm over Trumps tariff changes.

Please tell me that is her real name, and your'e not just making a funny.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 09, 2018, 08:07:19 AM
Sounds like the EU Commisioner for Trade, Cecelia Malström is, er, winding up a storm over Trumps tariff changes.

Please tell me that is her real name, and your'e not just making a funny.

Sorry! It's actually Malmstrõm!

 :devil:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Essie Mae on March 09, 2018, 11:03:57 AM
Suppose the Trump and Kim Jong-un Find they like each other, I mean really like each other? ........
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 09, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
Suppose the Trump and Kim Jong-un Find they like each other, I mean really like each other? ........

Well, in terms of mouthiness they are virtual brothers.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tom62 on March 09, 2018, 04:43:38 PM
Suppose the Trump and Kim Jong-un Find they like each other, I mean really like each other? ........

Well, in terms of mouthiness they are virtual brothers.

In that case there is nothing to fear.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 09, 2018, 10:33:14 PM
I am terrified at the prospect of having those two meet.  Kim is a lunatic and the Donald is a loose cannon.

Trump's genius maneuver with the tariffs will save a thousand jobs.  It has the potential to  cost tens of thousands of jobs.  I'm thinking General Motors, Ford, Chrysler/Fiat , Caterpillar, John Deere, and General Dynamics ( GD= submarines....Jet engines..and lots more) All of these very large businesses use steel.  Jack the price of steel and damage the bottom line of those firms. Damage the security of a job at any of those firms.

 Brazil is a major buyer of coal from the US...some billion dollars a year for our coal industry.  They are a major steel supplier for us who use a particular kind of coal to make their steel that we buy.....but now we wont be buying steel from Brazil.  Brazil will retaliate and some of our coal miners will be out of work. 

The world economy is rather delicately balanced.  We diminish the market for Brazilian steel and a lot of Brazilian workers will be out of a job. There is a long term established maker of saw blades and similar cutting tools in Michigan.  The name of the company is Simonds.
They use a particular alloy of steel that is not made in the USA.  There are only four sources. Two in Europe, two in China.  SImonds is screwed. They'll have to take a big hit when buying their particular alloy of steel from the "foreigners".   Their business will suffer big time and they will lay off a lot of good and talented workers who used to make those damned saw blades.   

Our dipshit president is a piss poor chess player.  He does not appear to understand cause and effect and has no identifiable skill in anticipating the next move by the opponent.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 09, 2018, 10:41:49 PM
Yeah, America buys a lot of the special steel alloys that Britain excells in. So chances are we will lose jobs and your military supply and space industries will be unable to complete contracts, or have to renegotiate the costs.

Rather than protecting state security this policy stands a good chance of destroying it. The Orange Nut has back-tracked on Canada and Mexico and says he will possibly announce other concessions "for friendly nations" later. Chances are the money men, as well as Rep senators, are ganging up on him and he is looking for a back door he can sneak through.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: jumbojak on March 10, 2018, 02:16:24 AM
But... but... we'll just start making those alloys here, right? It's not like a steel mill is a complicated or expensive enterprise to start up. And in the meantime, we can use our mini Mills to process scrap into submarine hulls and jet engine housings. Worst case scenario is that the price of rebar sees a slight bump.

*I imagine those thoughts going through Trump's head*
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on March 10, 2018, 08:01:22 AM
You wait. It'll be the bromance of the decade.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 10, 2018, 07:10:53 PM
The tariff thing has far reaching consequences.  An editorial in today's newspaper addressed the plight of the citrus fruit growers here in Florida.  Orange juice is  one of the major economic driver here.  We have shipped 150,000 metric tons of orange juice to Europe in the last ten years.  Now if the EU does retaliate, as they have already promised, our citrus industry will be decimated.  The EU countries can easily get their orange juice from Brazil and Brazilian producers will be pleased at the larger market opportunity. In fact Brazil already holds the majority of the European market.  Florida will lose thousands of jobs thanks to a misstep by the Donald.

Meanwhile, US Steel has reopened a steel production plant in Granite City Illinois. They will be rehiring 500 employees who had formerly worked at the facility. The prospect of going back to work has made 500 people happy.  Good for those people who had been underemployed or not employed at all.  Unfortunately there are far more people in other industries who will  lose their jobs. 

If there is to be a ten percent tariff on aluminum, one has to wonder if that also applies to Bauxite which is the raw material from which aluminum is made.  Will the tariff also apply to metal alloying elements like Nickle, chromium, and others that are not readily available as a domestic mined raw material?   

:notsure:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 11, 2018, 12:40:34 AM
Anyone want some orange juice? :hammock:

In all seriousness now, I do wonder how Dumpster Trumpster fire thinks he'll pull it off in a global economy.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 13, 2018, 01:43:52 PM
Another sacking!

Quote
Trump sacks Rex Tillerson, appoints CIA chief Mike Pompeo Secretary of State
US President Donald Trump on Tuesday fired Secretary of State Rex Tillerson announcing on Twitter that he will be replaced by CIA chief Mike Pompeo.   

"Mike Pompeo, Director of the CIA, will become our new Secretary of State. He will do a fantastic job!" Trump tweeted.

"Thank you to Rex Tillerson for his service!" he added.

The US president announced the appointment of Gina Haspel to head the Central Intelligence Agency -- the first woman tapped for the post.

Donald Trump wanted to change up his cabinet team before launching high-stakes negotiations with North Korea, a senior US official said.

"The President wanted to make sure to have his new team in place in advance of the upcoming talks with North Korea," the official said.

The reshuffle comes days after the spectacular announcement of a meeting between Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, whose date and details have yet to be determined.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/186155-cia-chief-mike-pompeo-to-be-us-secretary-of-state-after-rex-tillerson-sacked

The suggestion is it is becsuse he supported Britain's stance over the use of a nerve agent in the attempted murder of an ex Russian double agent. It seems Trump disagrees.

This is another boost for Putin, but Trump is too fucking thick to realise that. Like any politician Tillerson had his bad points but, so far, seemed to be one of the more sensible members of the Trump Shite House team.

Here's an assessment of Pompeo:
Quote
Mike Pompeo, your likely new — and Trump-friendly — secretary of state.

President Donald Trump has tapped CIA Director Mike Pompeo, the former three-term Republican Congress member known for his hawkish stance on Iran and his aggressive grilling of Hillary Clinton over Benghazi, as the new secretary of state.

In his 14 months as CIA director, Pompeo — who will replace beleaguered Secretary of State Rex Tillerson — quickly developed a close relationship with the president. He gave Trump daily intelligence briefings as well as his thoughts on whatever political or national security issue might be prominent that week.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/11/30/16719690/mike-pompeo-tillerson-haspel-cia-state-department

I just wonder how objective, how unbiased, those briefings were . . .

Wonder which Yes (Mr President, Sir) Man will get the CIA job?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: jumbojak on March 13, 2018, 02:15:00 PM
Did he even last a whole year?

Edit: Seems he was there just over w year. Wouldn't it be amusing if the Senate refused his new nominee?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 13, 2018, 02:23:33 PM
https://www.geo.tv/latest/186155-cia-chief-mike-pompeo-to-be-us-secretary-of-state-after-rex-tillerson-sacked

The suggestion is it is becsuse he supported Britain's stance over the use of a nerve agent in the attempted murder of an ex Russian double agent. It seems Trump disagrees.

This is another boost for Putin, but Trump is too fucking thick to realise that. Like any politician Tillerson had his bad points but, so far, seemed to be one of the more sensible members of the Trump Shite House team.
This goes onto the "Trump is Putin's bitch" mountain of evidence. I agree that Tillerson was probably near the top of the shit pile, one of the best of the worst. How terrible it is that someone that would have been seen as a shit appointment in any other administration is one of the better ones in this one. And even then gets fired.

Pompeo is going to be worse, dropping the Trump administration to a new low. Looks like Kelly is now at the top of the shit pile, and he's a terrible person too.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 13, 2018, 02:47:28 PM
https://www.geo.tv/latest/186155-cia-chief-mike-pompeo-to-be-us-secretary-of-state-after-rex-tillerson-sacked

The suggestion is it is becsuse he supported Britain's stance over the use of a nerve agent in the attempted murder of an ex Russian double agent. It seems Trump disagrees.

This is another boost for Putin, but Trump is too fucking thick to realise that. Like any politician Tillerson had his bad points but, so far, seemed to be one of the more sensible members of the Trump Shite House team.
This goes onto the "Trump is Putin's bitch" mountain of evidence. I agree that Tillerson was probably near the top of the shit pile, one of the best of the worst. How terrible it is that someone that would have been seen as a shit appointment in any other administration is one of the better ones in this one. And even then gets fired.

Pompeo is going to be worse, dropping the Trump administration to a new low. Looks like Kelly is now at the top of the shit pile, and he's a terrible person too.

Later news on the radio indicates that Trump is going to speak with May and, if he agrees, will condemn Russia. There seems to be the usual rhetoric and, probably deliberate, misreading of what has been said. Russia is well known for shouting at the top of its voice whether they are guilty or innocent. Think it is a cultural thing. We had a Russian chemical engineer at work - if you made a mistake with his experiment he threw a total wobbly and had to be warned about throwing things around - in a chemistry lab! If he got yours wrong it was just a shrug and a "So what, just do it again." He simply could not be in the wrong, you were just being "nationalist" or "political" if you criticised him. He went back home early, thankfully.

A previous three times Sec. Of State (name missed) says Trump's attitude is confusing and worrying to many over there. No change then.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on March 13, 2018, 04:11:45 PM
I knew a Russian guy that was chill about making mistakes. I knew a whole Russian family that had a health attitude about failure, not so much about disobedient kids with certain infractions.

I knew one non-Russian guy that threw a case of Pepsi one can at a time all over the place because it wasn't Coca-Cola.

Russia though, can't outright admit to doing these bad things or they risk making enemies of most other countries, at least not until they control of have the support of enough countries to have a shot at winning the war. Obvious targets of support are nuclear powers. Because even one nuclear bomb hitting them would be devastating, they either need the support of those countries or for those countries to be so chaotic that they won't do anything so drastic.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on March 13, 2018, 05:19:53 PM
 Oops, looks like it was a double barralled firing:


Quote
Top State Department aide Steve Goldstein fired after comment on Rex Tillerson sacking

WASHINGTON (AFP) - One of the US State Department's most senior officials was sacked on Tuesday (March 13) after his comments on the firing of Secretary of State Rex Tillerson appeared to contradict the White House version of events.

"This has been the honor of a lifetime and I am grateful to the president and the secretary for this opportunity. I look forward to getting some rest," Undersecretary of State Steve Goldstein told AFP.

(This story is developing)

[Hear what you say, Davin, just that there seemed to be a resonance  in reaction there. I suggest that Russia, like America, is big enough to have many kinds of "national" personality types within its borders. Even in little England there is a distinct attitude and response shift between parts of the country.]
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 16, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
Sial up this website for some good laughs..........https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1220412495/the-donald-deck-cartoon-playing-cards?ref=6hwo2k      ;D
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on March 16, 2018, 08:11:22 PM
Sial up this website for some good laughs..........https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1220412495/the-donald-deck-cartoon-playing-cards?ref=6hwo2k      ;D

Funny...
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 17, 2018, 01:46:40 AM
The report on the cute card deal is that the originator had been a staunch republican just recently. He is the son of a modestly popular opinion op ed writer named Susan Estrich. She is a professor at University of California at Los Angeles, UCLA. She teaches law and political science. Her family had been reliably democrat, except for her son.  He changed his allegiance big time when  The prodigal son fell out with the Trumpster and his minions when the shooting started and the Repubs  responded so much in tune with the NRA. The guy became a Democratic Trump hater. He apparently has a sense of humor. He commissioned the art work for the hilariously uncomplimentary Donalddeck cards.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 26, 2018, 03:57:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2uTpONBuiI
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on March 26, 2018, 04:08:16 AM
More fun lyrics....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3QK2xC4OfE
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on April 14, 2018, 06:42:03 PM
Trump foresaw the future!

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30715645_10156304325477929_842049002820293576_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4302ff8657fd2af579af28133e89f1d1&oe=5B754B1E)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 14, 2018, 06:52:56 PM
Trump foresaw the future!

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30715645_10156304325477929_842049002820293576_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4302ff8657fd2af579af28133e89f1d1&oe=5B754B1E)

Yeah...

Though swap "unknowingly" for "unthinkingly" - Trump is incapable of rational thought it seems.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on April 16, 2018, 02:35:17 PM
Just aired on Dr. Demento... Dotard Featherhead!

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 16, 2018, 02:51:17 PM
Like it!

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 17, 2018, 04:01:20 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-puts-the-brake-on-new-russian-sanctions-reversing-haleys-announcement/2018/04/16/ac3ad4f8-417f-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html?utm_term=.255d436d9aab

Quote
President Trump on Monday put the brakes on a preliminary plan to impose additional economic sanctions on Russia, walking back a Sunday announcement by U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley that the Kremlin had swiftly denounced as “international economic raiding.”

Preparations to punish Russia anew for its support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s government over an alleged chemical weapons attack in Syria caused consternation at the White House. Haley had said on CBS News’s “Face the Nation” that sanctions on Russian companies behind the equipment related to Assad’s alleged chemical weapons attack would be announced Monday by Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin.

But Trump conferred with his national security advisers later Sunday and told them he was upset the sanctions were being officially rolled out because he was not yet comfortable executing them, according to several people familiar with the plan.

Trump once again refuses to sanction Russia, almost as if there is something going on there.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 17, 2018, 04:28:06 PM
^

And add to that Trump is trying very hard to get his hands on the documents taken from his private lawyer . . .

Still, if the Kremlin is holding footage of Trump having a mutual golden shower session with a whore the impact of releasing them will be reduced. I can think of fewer pieces of "porn" more appalling than a leaking orange blubber bladder.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 17, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
^

And add to that Trump is trying very hard to get his hands on the documents taken from his private lawyer . . .
That is some kind of desperate grasping. He was crying about AC privilege, then wanted him and his lawyers to look through all of Cohen's files, looking at other clients files breaching their AC privilege... so that Trump and his lawyers can tell them which files are OK to look at. So fucking stupid.

Quote from: Dave
Still, if the Kremlin is holding footage of Trump having a mutual golden shower session with a whore the impact of releasing them will be reduced. I can think of fewer pieces of "porn" more appalling than a leaking orange blubber bladder.
I think they have more than a pee tape, I think they have evidence for other things. Maybe the pee tape doesn't exist, but I don't see how Russia is the only country in the world that Trump is weak on, unless there is a lot more going on there.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on April 17, 2018, 04:43:24 PM
^

And add to that Trump is trying very hard to get his hands on the documents taken from his private lawyer . . .
That is some kind of desperate grasping. He was crying about AC privilege, then wanted him and his lawyers to look through all of Cohen's files, looking at other clients files breaching their AC privilege... so that Trump and his lawyers can tell them which files are OK to look at. So fucking stupid.

Quote from: Dave
Still, if the Kremlin is holding footage of Trump having a mutual golden shower session with a whore the impact of releasing them will be reduced. I can think of fewer pieces of "porn" more appalling than a leaking orange blubber bladder.
I think they have more than a pee tape, I think they have evidence for other things. Maybe the pee tape doesn't exist, but I don't see how Russia is the only country in the world that Trump is weak on, unless there is a lot more going on there.

Wonder just how much capital he has invested in Russia - that they might be liable to grab?

If the UK government grabbed Russian property in London property values there might collapse. Ah, but then the Saudi's, and maybe the Chinese, would cash in . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 17, 2018, 05:03:35 PM
^

And add to that Trump is trying very hard to get his hands on the documents taken from his private lawyer . . .
That is some kind of desperate grasping. He was crying about AC privilege, then wanted him and his lawyers to look through all of Cohen's files, looking at other clients files breaching their AC privilege... so that Trump and his lawyers can tell them which files are OK to look at. So fucking stupid.

Quote from: Dave
Still, if the Kremlin is holding footage of Trump having a mutual golden shower session with a whore the impact of releasing them will be reduced. I can think of fewer pieces of "porn" more appalling than a leaking orange blubber bladder.
I think they have more than a pee tape, I think they have evidence for other things. Maybe the pee tape doesn't exist, but I don't see how Russia is the only country in the world that Trump is weak on, unless there is a lot more going on there.

Wonder just how much capital he has invested in Russia - that they might be liable to grab?

If the UK government grabbed Russian property in London property values there might collapse. Ah, but then the Saudi's, and maybe the Chinese, would cash in . . .
I also wonder how much is in Cohen's files that Trump is worried about. And it was revealed that Sean Hannity is also a client of Cohen.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on April 26, 2018, 11:24:53 PM
So I heard something about a draft.

A draft because of President wanting to do something in Syria.

I don't know like a chemical attack or something?

And he wants to draft us?

For the chemical attack?

Even though recruiters can't find anyone to join anyways?

I don't know what did you guys hear?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 27, 2018, 02:39:05 PM
I didn't hear anything about a draft yet, I guess I'll keep a look out for it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on April 27, 2018, 07:33:34 PM
So I heard something about a draft.

A draft because of President wanting to do something in Syria.

I don't know like a chemical attack or something?

And he wants to draft us?

For the chemical attack?

Even though recruiters can't find anyone to join anyways?

I don't know what did you guys hear?

This rumor originated on a site called "Real News Right Now (http://realnewsrightnow.com/2016/04/trump-on-revamping-the-military-were-bringing-back-the-draft/)." As Snopes points out (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-bringing-back-draft/), said site is a known distributor of false information. On the other hand, the deceptively named right-wing site "USMilitary[dot]com (https://www.usmilitary.com/276137/military-draft-just-rumors/)" claims that Snopes is a fake news site. Politifact (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/apr/21/realnewsrightnowcom/internet-story-claiming-trump-wants-renew-military/) also debunked this story but again, Politifact is regularly derided by right-wingers as having a left-wing bias, and therefore untrustworthy. ::)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 27, 2018, 08:40:06 PM
I guess I should have said I haven't heard anything reliable about the draft getting reinstated.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on April 28, 2018, 12:06:53 AM
Some jackass is trying to stir up panic among the snowflakes. 

Miserable old curmudgeon that I am, I would be pleased to have a draft for everyone who achieves the age of 20.....Something like the Swiss ?   Someone please explain to the snowflake types that "there ain't no free lunch". Explain that sometimes you will have your feelings hurt. Sometimes, no all the time... a little discipline, military or otherwise, is useful for ones realistic development as a responsible and useful human being.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 30, 2018, 03:31:44 PM
Some jackass is trying to stir up panic among the snowflakes. 

Miserable old curmudgeon that I am, I would be pleased to have a draft for everyone who achieves the age of 20.....Something like the Swiss ?   Someone please explain to the snowflake types that "there ain't no free lunch". Explain that sometimes you will have your feelings hurt. Sometimes, no all the time... a little discipline, military or otherwise, is useful for ones realistic development as a responsible and useful human being.
It looks like "snowflake" is the new straw man.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on April 30, 2018, 06:49:33 PM
Some jackass is trying to stir up panic among the snowflakes. 

Miserable old curmudgeon that I am, I would be pleased to have a draft for everyone who achieves the age of 20.....Something like the Swiss ?   Someone please explain to the snowflake types that "there ain't no free lunch". Explain that sometimes you will have your feelings hurt. Sometimes, no all the time... a little discipline, military or otherwise, is useful for ones realistic development as a responsible and useful human being.
It looks like "snowflake" is the new straw man.

I've been thinking about this awhile. The "straw man" fallacy. While I don't know if some people actually make up these arguments to fuck with people and win over friends or if they are just listening to one side of the story and just have their imagination filled with that garbage. The reason I've been thinking about it because it took me back to my communication class in college where there is the message that is given, and there is the message that is received.

A guy told me that my friend's mom was "probably getting deported or incarcerated" so I asked him how does he know that my friend's mom is an immigrant? And he replied by saying that he never said she was an immigrant, I just assume what people say and that it's typical of the left if I remember correctly. Oh and that I took it personally. Well apparently all he wanted to say was that, deportation is a "new" way that they are handling things in the states lately. And it was all a huge argument. Anyways I ended it when he started to call me delusional and that I was digging a whole for myself so I ask him if he could read minds or was he a doctor or maybe a magician. He walked away after that saying he made his point.

But that all goes back to saying that there is the message that is being given, and the message being received. They are not always the same and when they aren't it can lead to arguments. But when they are, it can be a pleasant experience.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on April 30, 2018, 07:59:07 PM
Some jackass is trying to stir up panic among the snowflakes. 

Miserable old curmudgeon that I am, I would be pleased to have a draft for everyone who achieves the age of 20.....Something like the Swiss ?   Someone please explain to the snowflake types that "there ain't no free lunch". Explain that sometimes you will have your feelings hurt. Sometimes, no all the time... a little discipline, military or otherwise, is useful for ones realistic development as a responsible and useful human being.
It looks like "snowflake" is the new straw man.

I've been thinking about this awhile. The "straw man" fallacy. While I don't know if some people actually make up these arguments to fuck with people and win over friends or if they are just listening to one side of the story and just have their imagination filled with that garbage. The reason I've been thinking about it because it took me back to my communication class in college where there is the message that is given, and there is the message that is received.

[...]

But that all goes back to saying that there is the message that is being given, and the message being received. They are not always the same and when they aren't it can lead to arguments. But when they are, it can be a pleasant experience.
It is true that what is given does not always match what is being received, but using the generosity principle when evaluating opposing views, you will find that misrepresenting an opponents points happens less often and gets closer more often to the actual point being made.

In this case, with Icarus' use of "snowflake," it appears as an ad hominem to address straw man arguments. Not only is the argument presented by these fictional "snowflakes" not an argument submitted by them, but the idea that are no free lunches is easy to disprove. Look at the US president, he has gotten a lot of free lunches.

Anyways, discipline is more effective when driven from within than without, and that doesn't require the military techniques to tear a person down and essentially make killing machines out of them. I've known many people who had gone through it and years after, they are just as varied in their discipline as everyone else I know who hadn't.

One common thing I've seen from people talking about disciplining others, is that they don't so much want disciplined people as they want conformed people.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on April 30, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
Some jackass is trying to stir up panic among the snowflakes. 

Miserable old curmudgeon that I am, I would be pleased to have a draft for everyone who achieves the age of 20.....Something like the Swiss ?   Someone please explain to the snowflake types that "there ain't no free lunch". Explain that sometimes you will have your feelings hurt. Sometimes, no all the time... a little discipline, military or otherwise, is useful for ones realistic development as a responsible and useful human being.
It looks like "snowflake" is the new straw man.

I've been thinking about this awhile. The "straw man" fallacy. While I don't know if some people actually make up these arguments to fuck with people and win over friends or if they are just listening to one side of the story and just have their imagination filled with that garbage. The reason I've been thinking about it because it took me back to my communication class in college where there is the message that is given, and there is the message that is received.

[...]

But that all goes back to saying that there is the message that is being given, and the message being received. They are not always the same and when they aren't it can lead to arguments. But when they are, it can be a pleasant experience.
It is true that what is given does not always match what is being received, but using the generosity principle when evaluating opposing views, you will find that misrepresenting an opponents points happens less often and gets closer more often to the actual point being made.

In this case, with Icarus' use of "snowflake," it appears as an ad hominem to address straw man arguments. Not only is the argument presented by these fictional "snowflakes" not an argument submitted by them, but the idea that are no free lunches is easy to disprove. Look at the US president, he has gotten a lot of free lunches.

Anyways, discipline is more effective when driven from within than without, and that doesn't require the military techniques to tear a person down and essentially make killing machines out of them. I've known many people who had gone through it and years after, they are just as varied in their discipline as everyone else I know who hadn't.

One common thing I've seen from people talking about disciplining others, is that they don't so much want disciplined people as they want conformed people.

That last bit yeah I can see that a lot. It's probably why I am such a rebel and make those people feel bad. They don't want outside opinions. They want to sit in their box and live in their fantasy land I guess of predictability. But my getting angry at that makes me just as bad as them. Trying to make them "think outside the box" is just as conforming.

Let people be people.

But still they are right in a way as we do live in a collective society. We all have to agree on what we want. It makes us more powerful that way. So I find that ironic that these "right-wingers" say that we are communists or socialists or things of that nature...that everyone is in a box. All-or-nothing or black-and-white as a psychologist might put it. But I find it ironic because that is exactly what communism is. Or at least purported to be. That everyone is just what it is and nothing can be done about it. There is no individuality. Nobody has ever had a unique thought in their life and life is predictable.

While I see that can be nice for some. I just don't think it's realistic to be that way all the time. Sometimes you need new things to happen. That's why evolution occurs. The mighty eat the weak because they evolved beyond them from being exposed to new things. And then those that were eaten change and adapt and if they suit their environment better, that's evolution. That's life.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 02, 2018, 09:22:24 AM
Quote
Donald Trump wrote own health letter, says physician Harold Bornstein

Donald Trump's former doctor has said he did not write a 2015 letter declaring the then-Republican presidential candidate's "astonishingly excellent" health, US media report.

"[Trump] dictated that whole letter," Harold Bornstein told CNN on Tuesday.

[. . .]

The New York City-based physician said he was visited by one of Mr Trump's personal bodyguards and two other men at his office on 3 February 2017.

"They must have been here for 25 or 30 minutes, it created a lot of chaos," Mr Bornstein told NBC News, adding that the incident made him feel "raped, frightened and sad".

He said the original and only copy of Mr Trump's medical charts, including lab reports, were taken by his aides.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43970908

Now. are "personal bodyguards" those in his official security team or privately employed? Be interesting to know if gathering such reports is really a standard practice for incoming predidents. The official physician's, "I have no concerns about his cognitive ability or neurological functions." is a very qualified statement if that is as far as it went. But then, perhaps he was not qualified to comment on Trump's psychological climate.

But, if Dr Bornstein is telling the truth the smell of fish just gets stronger. Can one beleive anything Trump says?

Later: here is the link to the CNN item, with video, that answers my question about the bodyguard - it was his private bodyguard and company lawyer that removed the records. Sounds like a nice earner for the lawyers to sort this out if it comes to court. Which it will almist certainly not.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-doc-says-trump-bodyguard-lawyer-raided-his-office-took-n870351

The Trump Shite Hiuse has yet to comment on the allegation about the letter itself. Probably still working out how to spin it.

An American once commented that the word "politics" was often used perjoratively because it had underlying criminal connotations in many people's minds.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Davin on May 02, 2018, 02:31:47 PM
Well, that doesn't seem right, the report was so well written and medical sounding.

Now where is that sarcastic emoji?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 02, 2018, 10:04:42 PM
And another one bites the dust . . .

Quote
Ty Cobb exits Trump’s legal team


Ty Cobb, President Donald Trump’s top White House lawyer responding to special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation, is out, according to the New York Times’s Matt Apuzzo and Michael Schmidt. He will likely be replaced by Emmet Flood, who worked for President Bill Clinton during his impeachment battle, though the Times report cautions that Flood’s hiring hasn’t yet been finalized.

The news is yet another tumultuous development for Trump’s legal team, just as it has been in the midst of negotiations with Mueller about a sit-down interview with the president. John Dowd, who was Trump’s top personal lawyer for the probe, resigned from the team in March, and Rudy Giuliani, Jane Raskin, and Martin Raskin joined the team in April.

It also comes after Trump has escalated his rhetoric criticizing Mueller and his probe — something Cobb pointedly resisted doing during his tenure, instead advising a strategy of cooperation and openness.

Trump insisted on Twitter in early March that he was “VERY happy with my lawyers” and had no plans to shake up the team. Since then, both Dowd and Cobb have exited, leaving only Jay Sekulow from that previous team.

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/2/17156224/ty-cobb-resigns-trump-mueller

Interesring that Trump may be hiring a lawyer experienced in fighting impeachment . . .
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on May 03, 2018, 05:08:21 AM
Because there isn't enough incense in the world...

(http://www.lenoircityfitness.com/images/category_25/%20Impeachment%20Scented%20Candle%20%20Impeach%20Trump%20%20Anti-Trump%20%20Never%20Trump%20Handmade%20-%206VCWC4Y4M_3.jpg)

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bluenose on May 03, 2018, 05:12:44 AM
Because there isn't enough incense in the world...

(http://www.lenoircityfitness.com/images/category_25/%20Impeachment%20Scented%20Candle%20%20Impeach%20Trump%20%20Anti-Trump%20%20Never%20Trump%20Handmade%20-%206VCWC4Y4M_3.jpg)


Mags, where so you get these from?  That's very funny, I love it!
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on May 03, 2018, 05:16:55 AM
Because there isn't enough incense in the world...

(http://www.lenoircityfitness.com/images/category_25/%20Impeachment%20Scented%20Candle%20%20Impeach%20Trump%20%20Anti-Trump%20%20Never%20Trump%20Handmade%20-%206VCWC4Y4M_3.jpg)


Mags, where so you get these from?  That's very funny, I love it!

 :lol:
http://www.lenoircityfitness.com/candles-holders-eeb-25/antitrump-trumpscented-candle-political-humor-funny-candle-funny-gift-for-democrats-gift-for-liberals-handmade-ncnfd926c-wwo-4599.shtml
 (http://www.lenoircityfitness.com/candles-holders-eeb-25/antitrump-trumpscented-candle-political-humor-funny-candle-funny-gift-for-democrats-gift-for-liberals-handmade-ncnfd926c-wwo-4599.shtml)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 03, 2018, 09:01:42 AM
Is that a moral compass needle on top?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 03, 2018, 04:11:11 PM
"I knew nothing about the money I admit that I refunded to my lawyer to buy of that woman for that event that never happened."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on May 03, 2018, 04:13:37 PM
Is that a moral compass needle on top?
Probably.  ;D
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on May 04, 2018, 05:46:22 AM
"I knew nothing about the money I admit that I refunded to my lawyer to buy of that woman for that event that never happened."
But now, according to his lawyer, it did happened.
 :picard facepalm:

Quote
WASHINGTON — President Trump reimbursed Michael D. Cohen, his longtime personal lawyer, for a $130,000 payment that Mr. Cohen has said he made to keep a pornographic film actress from going public before the 2016 election with her story about an affair with Mr. Trump, according to Rudolph W. Giuliani, one of the president’s lawyers.
...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/us/politics/trump-michael-cohen-stormy-daniels-giuliani.html (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/us/politics/trump-michael-cohen-stormy-daniels-giuliani.html)

It's like a soap opera. :popcorn:
What should we call it?
The Commander in Chief's Stormy Days.
 :shifty:
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Arturo on May 04, 2018, 06:13:08 PM
"I knew nothing about the money I admit that I refunded to my lawyer to buy of that woman for that event that never happened."
But now, according to his lawyer, it did happened.
 :picard facepalm:

Quote
WASHINGTON — President Trump reimbursed Michael D. Cohen, his longtime personal lawyer, for a $130,000 payment that Mr. Cohen has said he made to keep a pornographic film actress from going public before the 2016 election with her story about an affair with Mr. Trump, according to Rudolph W. Giuliani, one of the president’s lawyers.
...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/us/politics/trump-michael-cohen-stormy-daniels-giuliani.html (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/us/politics/trump-michael-cohen-stormy-daniels-giuliani.html)

It's like a soap opera. :popcorn:
What should we call it?
The Commander in Chief's Stormy Days.
 :shifty:

Oh god I just hope they didn't film it  :puke:

And then Joe Rogan and whoever else are over here talking about how Hillary and everyone else were trying to affect the outcome of the election. But now they go even further then that and say that they were trying to set up things about beyond her presidency to affect her legacy. As if this is all just some sort of brainwashing campaign that has been going on forever. But nobody liked George Bush and many people still don't. Fucking Kanye doesn't even like George Bush.

Remember this?

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Magdalena on May 04, 2018, 06:57:29 PM
This is funny.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on May 23, 2018, 07:28:45 PM
Oh, dear . . .

Quote
Trump lawyer 'paid by Ukraine' to arrange White House talks

Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, received a secret payment of at least $400,000 (£300,000) to fix talks between the Ukrainian president and President Trump, according to sources in Kiev close to those involved.

The payment was arranged by intermediaries acting for Ukraine's leader, Petro Poroshenko, the sources said, though Mr Cohen was not registered as a representative of Ukraine as required by US law.

Mr Cohen denies the allegation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44215656
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: joeactor on May 24, 2018, 02:23:21 PM
Oh, dear . . .

Quote
Trump lawyer 'paid by Ukraine' to arrange White House talks

Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, received a secret payment of at least $400,000 (£300,000) to fix talks between the Ukrainian president and President Trump, according to sources in Kiev close to those involved.

The payment was arranged by intermediaries acting for Ukraine's leader, Petro Poroshenko, the sources said, though Mr Cohen was not registered as a representative of Ukraine as required by US law.

Mr Cohen denies the allegation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44215656

Well...

I'm sure it's nothing.

 ::)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on June 30, 2018, 08:24:19 AM
The US Ambassador to Estonia has retired, after servingv6 presidents, because of Trump's attitude towards Europe.
Quote
U.S. Ambassador to Estonia Resigns in Disgust After Trump Anti-Europe Rants
he U.S. ambassador to Estonia, James D. Melville Jr., a career diplomat and member of the senior foreign service ranks, announced to friends Friday that he was resigning amid a string of controversial comments President Donald Trump made about U.S. allies in Europe.

Melville, who has served as a diplomat for 33 years and as ambassador to Estonia since 2015, was due to retire soon but said in a private Facebook post announcing his retirement that Trump’s behavior and comments accelerated his decision.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/29/u-s-ambassador-to-estonia-resigns-in-disgust-after-trump-anti-europe-rants-nato-european-union-diplomacy-transatlantic-alliance/

It seems that he is just the latest in line:

Quote
Top Diplomat Says U.S. Has Lost 60% of Its Career Ambassadors Under President Trump
The U.S. has lost 60% of its career ambassadors since January, according to the head of the union that represents diplomatic staff.

Barbara Stephenson, the head of the American Foreign Service Association (AFSA) and former U.S. Ambassador to Panama, wrote in a memo to members that diplomatic leadership ranks are being “depleted at a dizzying speed.”

She referred to a recent TIME cover which she said corroborated her vision of government being dismantled. “The cover of the TIME magazine that arrived as I was writing this column jarred me with its graphic of wrecking balls and warning of ‘dismantling government as we know it,'” she wrote.

She blamed the decline in staff partially on “the decision to slash promotion numbers by more than half.”
http://time.com/5016774/trump-ambassadors-state-department-lost-60-percent-afsa-barbara-stephenson/

So, now, can one expected syncophants to be selected for these posts?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on June 30, 2018, 03:06:39 PM
Trump and his like are shitheads, and that's putting it lightly.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 02, 2018, 03:47:25 PM
Cohen to blab?

Quote
Michael Cohen Cuts Bait On Donald Trump In Interview With George Stephanopoulos
During the interview, Stephanopoulos said, the man who famously said he would take a bullet for Trump said, when asked what he will do if prosecutors offer him leniency in exchange for intel on Trump’s contacts with Russians during the election and etc, said, “My wife, my daughter and my son have my first loyalty and always will. I put family and country first.”

Cohen did not offer praise of Trump at any point in the interview, Stephanopoulos said.
https://deadline.com/2018/07/michael-cohen-donald-trump-cuts-bait-george-stephanopoulos-good-morning-america-video-1202420395/

Might be interesting if he really does talk turkey with Mueller. But . . .

Quote
What Could Michael Cohen Tell Robert Mueller?
[ ... ]
First, there is the Russia connection. Cohen has extensive links in New York’s business community of Russian-born immigrants. It is well known that he worked with Felix Sater, a Russian-born business associate of Trump, on an abortive project to develop a Trump Tower in Moscow. Sater has said that there was nothing untoward about their efforts. But, according to a lengthy report that Buzzfeed published last month, “FBI agents investigating Russia’s interference in the election learned that Cohen was in frequent contact with foreign individuals about Trump Moscow—and that some of these individuals had knowledge of or played a role in 2016 election meddling.”

Mueller may also be interested in clearing up the issue of whether Cohen visited Prague in 2016, and met with people connected to Russia, as was alleged in the Steele dossier. Cohen has adamantly denied that he visited the Czech capital, although he concedes that he did go to Italy for a week in August, 2016. A couple of months ago, McClatchy reported that Mueller's team has unearthed evidence that Cohen did go to Prague, but that story hasn’t been confirmed by other media outlets.
[ ... ]
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-could-michael-cohen-tell-robert-mueller
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 19, 2018, 03:31:14 PM
Despite Trump's spinning on the spot regarding whether or not Russia interfered with the elections etc. Putin has elected to nake matters more confusing by ignoring the Trump Twist and defending the Fat Fool.

But Putin seems to be further spinning things, using the situation to imply a thinly veiled threat regarding world peace. As has seen seen before Putin is a master at intrigue in a country where violent intrigue has been a constant part of their history.

Quote
Putin hails Helsinki summit as a success and chides Trump's critics

Vladimir Putin called his first summit with Donald Trump a success, and said on Thursday that Trump’s opponents in the US are hampering any progress on what they discussed, such as limiting nuclear arsenals or ending the Syrian war.

In his first public comments about the summit, the Russian president told the country’s diplomats that US-Russian relations are “in some ways worse than during the cold war”, but that his meeting with Trump on Monday allowed them to start on “the path to positive change”.

Trump now claims he was 'very strong' with Putin on election meddling
“It’s naive to think that the problems would be solved in a few hours. But no one expected that,” Putin said.

“We will see how things develop further,” Putin said, evoking unnamed “forces” in the US trying to prevent any improvement in relations and “putting narrow party interests above the national interest”.

Putin faces no serious political opposition at home, and leads a country that has never experienced a democratic transfer of power.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/putin-trump-latest-news-russia-helsinki-summit-response

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Recusant on July 19, 2018, 10:24:59 PM
Premature, certainly, but ...

(https://i.imgur.com/11486Iz.jpg)

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on July 20, 2018, 01:13:26 AM
Well the Trumpster is filled with hydrogen  as was the Hindenburg.   Hydrogen or otherwise he is an incendiary risk.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 23, 2018, 09:30:21 PM
Seems there are now moves to make Trump's attorney, Rudy Giuliani, register as an agent of foreign interests. Giuliani has continued to work for cluents in other countries in a posiibly political function. Seems he also asked Trump to promote his own son in the Shite House.

For a man who wanted to clean the Washington swamp Trump seems adept at picking some pretty slimy slitherers.

Quote
Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani needs to register as foreign agent for overseas work, experts say

Donald Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani must register under the Foreign Agent Registration Act (FARA), experts say, after it was discovered he has maintained overseas clients while serving the president.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/rudy-giuliani-foreign-contacts-iran-russia-robert-mueller-probe-a8441006.html
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on July 25, 2018, 09:11:20 PM
Trump is heating up his war on the media it seems.

Quote
Donald Trump just said something truly terrifying
"Stick with us. Don't believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news. ... What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening."

This feels to me like a step beyond Trump's long-established willingness to exaggerate and sometimes outright lie in pursuit of his own agenda. Since he became a candidate three years ago, Trump has exhibited a casual relationship with the truth. It's become clear over that time that he is telling himself the story of his own life; whether that version comports with established facts has never been of major concern for the President.

[...]

[...] what Trump did in his VFW speech goes beyond simply saying lots of things that aren't true. (To be clear: He did that too!) He told the audience not to believe anything they see or read. That all media is fake. That everything that doesn't originate with Trump himself should be ignored.

Looks rather like another step towards the methods that the likes of Putin, Erdoğan and other well known pseudo dictators employ.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 22, 2018, 02:58:52 PM
Quote
Cohen Has ‘Knowledge’ of Russia Campaign Conspiracy, Lawyer Says
President Donald Trump’s former personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, has "knowledge" about computer hacking and collusion that may interest Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, Cohen’s lawyer said.

One day after Cohen pleaded guilty to illegal campaign finance charges over hush money paid to a porn actress and a former Playboy model -- all but naming Trump as having ordered him to do it -- Cohen’s lawyer said Wednesday he would be happy to share the information with the special counsel or Congress.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-21/trump-s-terrible-day-sees-cohen-plead-guilty-manafort-convicted


Is this hype or is the shit about to hit the fan?
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on August 22, 2018, 03:25:21 PM
Don't get your hopes up.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Dave on August 22, 2018, 04:41:13 PM
Don't get your hopes up.

Oh, I understand the whole thing might sink into that swamp Trump said he would drain (but that he has actually extended in area and deepened). And if he gets dumped America and, by extension, the world will have Pence to deal with as Recusant said.

Unfortunately maturity has never cured my addiction to schadenfreude! Or maybe age, and experience, has sharpened it.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on January 05, 2019, 02:00:54 AM
Congressman Guiterriz tells it as it is.  He is really outspoken and pretty close to the way that it is.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ScCMHhnkUk
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on January 07, 2019, 07:44:59 PM
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Icarus on February 10, 2019, 01:45:37 AM
^ (grin)
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Tank on February 13, 2019, 07:59:40 AM
Culled from FaceBook.

"Tim Beer
23 hrs

Someone on Quora asked "Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?" Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England wrote this magnificent response.

A few things spring to mind.

Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem.

For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace - all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed.

So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief.

Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing - not once, ever.

I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility - for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman.

But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is - his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty.

Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers.

And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults - he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness.

There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface.

Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront.

Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul.

And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist.

Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that.

He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat.

He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege.

And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully.

That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead.

There are unspoken rules to this stuff - the Queensberry rules of basic decency - and he breaks them all. He punches downwards - which a gentleman should, would, could never do - and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless - and he kicks them when they are down.

So the fact that a significant minority - perhaps a third - of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think 'Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that:
* Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are.
* You don't need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man.

This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss.

After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of shit. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum.

God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.

He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart.

In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws - he would make a Trump.

And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish:

'My God… what… have… I… created?

If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set."
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 13, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
Very good, dragged on a bit.

I still like Deniro's response best.

Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: jumbojak on February 13, 2019, 01:00:01 PM
It as mazes me how effortlessly he lies. I like to tell tall tales about myself an others, but I make them so outlandish and fanciful that it is, or should be, obvious to anyone what they are - tall tales and jokes meant to carry a point or get a laugh. His lies are petty. They are meant to bolster his credibility, and they have been shown to be lies over and over again. I can understand people agreeing with what he wants to do. I don't agree with them, but I can understand that. What I can't understand is someone agreeing so strongly with what he wants to do that they defend his nonexistent past accomplishments. It's okay to fail, whether you do so in business, marriage, or life. Failure is how we learn from mistakes so that we don't make the same ones going forward but you have to admit your shortcomings in order to address them. Trump doesn't do that. If you listen to him speak you get the impression he thinks himself a kind of Superman while I hear the rambling of an old drunk at the bar who nobody in their right mind would believe fully.
Title: Re: Deeper into the Trump Abyss.
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 13, 2019, 01:12:47 PM
I could shoot somebody and not loose any votes.