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Religion => Religion => Topic started by: MatureMcLeod on January 11, 2017, 12:25:59 AM

Title: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: MatureMcLeod on January 11, 2017, 12:25:59 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

The thing is if I do any of this, I go to jail. I keep on telling myself if I do wrong, I will go to jail, but my mind thinks of the Christians and Trump getting away with it even more. I can't stand it. I want to end my life badly so I don't have to deal with these evil people anymore. What should I do?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 11, 2017, 12:41:53 AM
Still professional psychological counseling.

Do you need help finding resources, making the call, or getting there?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Firebird on January 11, 2017, 02:58:47 AM
Go get help NOW. Call a friend, a counselor, a hotline, whatever helps.
There's plenty of good in this world too, and it needs people like you to balance things out.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on January 11, 2017, 05:57:18 AM
1. I keep on telling myself if I do wrong, I will go to jail...
1. I want to end my life badly so I don't have to deal with these evil people anymore.
 
What should I do?
Are you saying that these are the only two options you have?
...And you want us to help you decide?  :eyebrow:

Why?

And why is it that you never respond to anyone's posts? Just curious.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Asmodean on January 11, 2017, 08:37:17 AM
Get a psychologist you can barely afford, then we can have a pity party over the pricing of shrinky services.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: OldGit on January 11, 2017, 09:59:49 AM
I really think you need professional help with this.  I wish you the best of luck and a happy outcome.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 11, 2017, 10:19:29 AM
Get a psychologist you can barely afford, then we can have a pity party over the pricing of shrinky services.

Knowing the Asmo enjoys certain mood-balancing prescriptions to some degree, I feel he should know that a psychologist is generally required to obtain these in the US. It's not entirely about talk therapy.

A general doctor is legally able but typically will not due to potential liability of it not being their area of expertise. Generally you will only get short courses of things like Adavan with no refills from a general doctor or ER.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 11, 2017, 11:30:07 AM
Get a psychologist you can barely afford, then we can have a pity party over the pricing of shrinky services.

That's outrageous!!!!!!
Your society subsidises crack whores but makes you pay for shrinkage?
Have you thought of doing a bit of crack whoring to get your shrinks for free?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 11, 2017, 11:55:28 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

The thing is if I do any of this, I go to jail. I keep on telling myself if I do wrong, I will go to jail, but my mind thinks of the Christians and Trump getting away with it even more. I can't stand it. I want to end my life badly so I don't have to deal with these evil people anymore. What should I do?

So you're feeling inclined to do evil but are repressed by fear of gaol and are pissed that others are doing it and getting away with it?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Asmodean on January 11, 2017, 12:22:15 PM
Knowing the Asmo enjoys certain mood-balancing prescriptions to some degree, I feel he should know that a psychologist is generally required to obtain these in the US. It's not entirely about talk therapy.
My pills do come by courtesy of an M.D, but one specialised in shrinking stuff. The general practitioner does dose adjustments based on the severity of incessant whining from the patient. I'm content as a cucumber with this arrangement.

Quote
A general doctor is legally able but typically will not due to potential liability of it not being their area of expertise. Generally you will only get short courses of things like Adavan with no refills from a general doctor or ER.
Yeah... Pretty much the same story here, but I don't think liability is the main issue Norwegian M.Ds worry about.

That's outrageous!!!!!!
Your society subsidises crack whores but makes you pay for shrinkage?
Have you thought of doing a bit of crack whoring to get your shrinks for free?
I did consider drinking, but that affects my balance. Smoking pot proved an even more unpleasant experience... I fear I'd make for a miserable crack whore even by the lowest of crack whore standards.  :(
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 12, 2017, 02:10:00 AM
I want to end my life badly so I don't have to deal with these evil people anymore. What should I do?

I have to be honest with you, this is a strange thing to ask strangers on a public forum. This is not the first time you've asked whether you should off yourself here, and I doubt it will be the last.

Take a step back for a moment. As has been said, you really need to seek professional help if you're having suicidal thoughts. Your over-the-top reaction to religious double standards and hypocrisy is not normal and if it's brought on by a condition such as depression, you should really seek treatment. Such mental illnesses are in most cases easily treatable.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 04, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on February 04, 2017, 12:53:27 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f0/99/1e/f0991e3e5a1fdcfd3b7bd77ff9aea44b.jpg)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 04, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)

In a perverse way the whole article is worthwhile as an example of Craig's casuistry, but I'll quote a section where he explicitly justifies the "murder of babies."

Quote
God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel.  The killing of the Canaanite children not only served to prevent assimilation to Canaanite identity but also served as a shattering, tangible illustration of Israel’s being set exclusively apart for God.

Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation.  We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven’s incomparable joy.  Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives.

Craig finds the murder of innocents completely justifiable, but he does have qualms about this example of YHVH's bloodthirst:

Quote
Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves.  Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children?  The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.

Regarding cannibalism, I'm not sure what MatureMcLeod was referring to, but as a Catholic you are required to believe that you literally eat the body of Jesus when you receive communion, are you not?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 06, 2017, 05:08:18 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

Dredge, Wow! I'm glad you finally got out of the "other room."

Hi, listen, I'm sorry to interrupt your conversation, but there's something I would like to say to you.

I would like to apologize for doing this to you:
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1075420/dodge-a-wrench-dodge-a-ball-o.gif)
I don't know why I did that. There's no excuse for it. I would also like to apologize for being the one who is somewhat responsible for your second "ban warning."  :shifty:

Hopefully, we can get to know you better by talking about other things. We can talk about things like..."A starfish at the bottom of the ocean, what could it be contemplating right now?" in the philosophy section of the forum...if you want.  :grin:

Also, I don't think MatureMcLeod will be answering you. He likes to ask questions but doesn't like to answer them, and/or is very selective of the ones he wants to answer...like you















































I'm sure, are well aware, by now, that this happens a lot in forums. Yes?  :grin:

Anyways, remember this:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1d/52/85/1d5285aa3e265160d1c76c2ded6b07ff.jpg)
Peace.  :grin:

OK.
Please continue the conversation: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?

Thank you.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on February 06, 2017, 01:57:53 PM
Oh, I was thinking Dredge may be exactly the sort of poster MM replies to.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 09, 2017, 12:06:11 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.

Quote
Regarding cannibalism, I'm not sure what MatureMcLeod was referring to, but as a Catholic you are required to believe that you literally eat the body of Jesus when you receive communion, are you not?
Yes, but the Body and Blood of Christ remain in the form of bread and wine, so consuming them doesn't qualify as cannibalism.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 09, 2017, 02:48:40 AM
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.
Yes, about that..... If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the deaths of every child who has ever died, for every child who has been raped while she prayed for God to help her, for every Christian martyred, for every "no" answer to every prayer request ever.
Which is why if there was a God like this, I would detest it. I would spit at it, I would feel betrayed by it, I would hate it.
But there's just NOT a God like this. So there's nobody to blame. People and life and luck is just shit sometimes. Period.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 09, 2017, 04:32:21 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.

Quote
Regarding cannibalism, I'm not sure what MatureMcLeod was referring to, but as a Catholic you are required to believe that you literally eat the body of Jesus when you receive communion, are you not?
Yes, but the Body and Blood of Christ remain in the form of bread and wine, so consuming them doesn't qualify as cannibalism.


So it's not the body and blood of jesus. It's just bread and wine.

Check mate theists.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Asmodean on February 09, 2017, 09:50:19 AM
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.
He's responsible for the death of everything that ever lived though, no? Not just babies?

You know... Yes. It's a fair point to a non-spiritual person, however, most people who believe in the afterlife also believe that they will exist beyond their death in some form or another, often retaining their consciousness in the process. It diminishes the finality of death to the self-perceived concept of I, so I see the appeal, at least until you consider just how vast eternity is... And then square it. In any case, my point is that death means something different to someone who doesn't view it as the end of the road for the individual consciousness. It's a baseless rationalisation to any one outside such a faith, of course, but it does appear compelling and powerful to any one within.

Ah, the rights and wrongs and conceptual truths and falsehoods... So subjective as to render them useless in practically any intelligent conversation, yet there they are, always creeping up regardless. People put too much stock in their own feelings, is what I think. Whatever. What was I talking about?

Quote
Yes, but the Body and Blood of Christ remain in the form of bread and wine, so consuming them doesn't qualify as cannibalism.
That's a fine line to walk, but I have a different point to raise on the subject; if the wine does not literally turn into blood, and it does not figuratively turn into blood (As in; something is claimed to actually [read: physically] happen to the wine, as opposed to it being a metaphor of sorts) in what way does then the wine turn into blood? Does it contain like... Virtual leukocytes and such?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 09, 2017, 07:30:24 PM
I would personally prefer brains  :zombie:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 09, 2017, 08:29:13 PM
I would personally prefer brains  :zombie:

Heresy! All true atheists want babies above all other foods. It is known.

: show
(http://i.imgur.com/WumSCVV.jpg)


Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 09, 2017, 09:02:41 PM
I would personally prefer brains  :zombie:

Heresy! All true atheists want babies above all other foods. It is known.

: show
(http://i.imgur.com/WumSCVV.jpg)

True.  :grin:

: show
(http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/the-smell-of-a-baby.jpg)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Davin on February 10, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
Maybe he meant baby brains?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 15, 2017, 12:42:22 AM
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.
Yes, about that..... If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the deaths of every child who has ever died, for every child who has been raped while she prayed for God to help her, for every Christian martyred, for every "no" answer to every prayer request ever.
Which is why if there was a God like this, I would detest it. I would spit at it, I would feel betrayed by it, I would hate it.
But there's just NOT a God like this.
If this is the whole story, everyone would detest such a God.   So there must be more going on than just suffering.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 15, 2017, 12:45:27 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
Yes, well, I take your point.  And let's not forget all the babies drowned in the Flood and the Egyptian first-borns killed by the angels in the days of Moses.  If God is omnipotent, then he is also responsible for the all suffering and deaths of every child who has ever lived.

Quote
Regarding cannibalism, I'm not sure what MatureMcLeod was referring to, but as a Catholic you are required to believe that you literally eat the body of Jesus when you receive communion, are you not?
Yes, but the Body and Blood of Christ remain in the form of bread and wine, so consuming them doesn't qualify as cannibalism.


So it's not the body and blood of jesus. It's just bread and wine.

Check mate theists.
Your logic is deep and profound.   But the form and the substance are two different things.  It's God magic.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 15, 2017, 01:18:56 AM
Yes, but the Body and Blood of Christ remain in the form of bread and wine, so consuming them doesn't qualify as cannibalism.
That's a fine line to walk, but I have a different point to raise on the subject; if the wine does not literally turn into blood, and it does not figuratively turn into blood (As in; something is claimed to actually [read: physically] happen to the wine, as opposed to it being a metaphor of sorts) in what way does then the wine turn into blood? Does it contain like... Virtual leukocytes and such?
Usually,  the bread and wine are indistinguishable from normal bread and wine, but there are several documented miracles which indicate that real flesh and blood are present.  That is to say, the bread  and wine have turned into real flesh and blood.  The Miracle of Lanciano is particularly interesting in this regard - the consecrated bread and wine turned into flesh and blood that were scientifically tested to reveal human heart tissue and human blood (both are type AB, the same type as the blood analysed from the Shroud of Turin).
Moreover, this miracle occurred in the 8th century AD, yet the flesh and blood have not deteriorated, despite being left in an unadulterated and natural state.

Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found on the web.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 15, 2017, 03:16:37 AM
If anybody believes that there is a solid provenance for the items that Linoli did his non peer reviewed tests on (https://zenit.org/articles/physician-tells-of-eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano/), I encourage them to contact me about an incredible deal on a piece of vital transportation infrastructure.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 15, 2017, 03:59:36 AM

Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found on the web.

Anything can be found on the web.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 15, 2017, 05:43:11 PM

Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found on the web.

Anything can be found on the web.

Just as pretty much anything could be found in churches in Middle Ages Europe, being venerated by the gullible. The medieval "relic trade" is infamous for its nearly complete lack of genuine relics. (http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/)

There is no contemporary documentation for the alleged miracle of Lanciano--the first mention of it that can be found dates to 1636 (https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi07part8.pdf), about 900 years after the date the miracle supposedly occurred.

Even if we were foolish enough to accept the results of Linoli's tests, all they really show is that at some point somebody created the relics. It's rather probable that somebody was a charlatan whose purpose was to fleece those blinded by their faith.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 15, 2017, 11:39:07 PM
One of my favourite internet quotes:

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/insightoftheday/quote-184.jpg)

Just because it can be found online means it's true, right?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 16, 2017, 05:05:46 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 16, 2017, 03:45:22 PM
Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies . . .

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.

Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 16, 2017, 03:55:26 PM
Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies . . .

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.

Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?

Why couldn't god just blink out of existence the specific dudes he didn't like, collateral damage doesn't sound omni potent god like.

The DTs used to be a thing, it had to do with heavy alcohol intake and pink elephants.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 16, 2017, 04:23:10 PM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.
I know this isn't exactly along the lines of this thread,  but I have to answer Dredge.... I can't stop myself...
This is an explanation (a bad one--pure guesswork)  that I don't think I've heard before. And I've heard a lot of explanations.
I'd like to hear your creative excuses for other annihilations in the OT. Hey! I know! We can play a game! I like games.
How about I'll give you a few Bible events and you tell me another explanation for them. After all, this explanation of yours was cool.  So here we go.......

*Numbers 31:7-18   God orders all Midianites killed, except virgin girls and girl children (those were reserved for the Israelite men-- a little feisty reward for their hard work of war)
*Deuteronomy 3  God's people wiped out 60 whole cities and villages, men women and children. But they got to keep the livestock and plunder. (Score!) Then they divided the land up between them.
*Joshua 6    The Israelites destroyed the entire city of Jericho: men, women, children and livestock too! (Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho,  Jericho....... and the walls came tumbling down!)
*Judges 21    11 of the 12 tribes of Israel murdered everyone in Jabesh Gilead (their own people!) Except the virgins again.... because they needed wives for one of their tribes. Oh! But there weren't enough virgins for all the men, so the men were ordered to hide alongside the road, and when they saw a girl who was pleasing to their eye, they ambushed her and carried her away to another city to make her his "wife". (AKA rape her repeatedly until she gave up). Chivalry wasn't their strong point.....
Ok, just one more, I have to stop somewhere.....
*1 Samuel 15    God orders the slaughter of the Amalekites-  men, women, children, and animals (I guess none of them needed wives this time)
OK Dredge, ask the Holy Spirit to give you fresh insight and knock my socks off!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Icarus on February 17, 2017, 10:18:21 PM
Damn Dragonia you took the gloves off. Way to go little sister.  Let's see how (or if) Dredge refutes those little  incidents in his good book.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 17, 2017, 10:28:33 PM
The DTs used to be a thing, it had to do with heavy alcohol intake and pink elephants.

I think there must be something here that's escaping my grasp, so I'll ask: How does delirium tremens relate to the failings of a supposedly omnipotent deity?

Here's something random. I've been wanting to ask this for years: Do you mind if I call you Albert? ;)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 17, 2017, 11:23:58 PM
Albert? :notsure: There must be some reference I'm not getting here.

Marvin would make sense, Pudding, Penny, Erik...the list goes on. But Albert? I'm assuming it could be something out of pop culture, but it could also be something a little more obscure. :chin:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 17, 2017, 11:33:20 PM
Heh, now we have two minor mysteries going. :lol:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 17, 2017, 11:40:18 PM
Heh, now we have two minor mysteries going. :lol:

NOOOOO!!!

:headshake:

My mind abhors a mystery, now you're forcing me to come up with some story behind the name! 

:levitate: Awaiting revelation... 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 17, 2017, 11:46:55 PM
You were on the right track. Go with your first second thought. :studious:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 17, 2017, 11:55:18 PM
Ok. :notsure: Though my second thought may not be what you think I was thinking...I'll make a mystery out of that! Three can play at that game!  :devil:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 18, 2017, 08:59:38 AM
The DTs used to be a thing, it had to do with heavy alcohol intake and pink elephants.

I think there must be something here that's escaping my grasp, so I'll ask: How does delirium tremens relate to the failings of a supposedly omnipotent deity?

High doses of Trump are undoubtedly damaging to the brain but it's very hard to avoid.
His mouth's bird like motion particularly disturbs my equilibrium, why's it move like that?
As bad as the effects of trump exposure are, I wouldn't recommend sudden abstention.
No, you need to wean your self off or risk suffering the DTs and pink orange elephants.

Did I suggest Donald Trumpian related DTs to the failing of a deity?
It does indicate a pervasively cruel sense of humour I suppose.
 
I've been wanting to ask this for years: Do you mind if I call you Albert? ;)

I suppose not but I don't want it taken as a precedent by the forum riff raff.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 21, 2017, 05:45:38 AM

Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found on the web.

Anything can be found on the web.
Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found in the archives of the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 21, 2017, 05:53:26 AM

Accounts of other such miracles can be readily found on the web.

Anything can be found on the web.

Just as pretty much anything could be found in churches in Middle Ages Europe, being venerated by the gullible. The medieval "relic trade" is infamous for its nearly complete lack of genuine relics. (http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/)

There is no contemporary documentation for the alleged miracle of Lanciano--the first mention of it that can be found dates to 1636 (https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi07part8.pdf), about 900 years after the date the miracle supposedly occurred.

Even if we were foolish enough to accept the results of Linoli's tests, all they really show is that at some point somebody created the relics. It's rather probable that somebody was a charlatan whose purpose was to fleece those blinded by their faith.
The Catholic Church isn't like Benny Hinn; she takes reports of miracles seriously, that is to say, skepticism first, then rigourous investigation (a process that may take years).   Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.  Do you really think the Church is that gullible and stupid?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 21, 2017, 05:56:00 AM
Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.

Point 2 - "Hallelujah!  Salvation and glory and power belong to out God, for his judgements are true and just!" - Revelation 19:2.

Point 3 - It sounds a tad disingenuous for someone who approves of abortion to be concerned about the murder of babies.  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 21, 2017, 06:07:23 AM
I know this isn't exactly along the lines of this thread,  but I have to answer Dredge.... I can't stop myself...
This is an explanation (a bad one--pure guesswork)  that I don't think I've heard before. And I've heard a lot of explanations.
I'd like to hear your creative excuses for other annihilations in the OT. Hey! I know! We can play a game! I like games.
How about I'll give you a few Bible events and you tell me another explanation for them. After all, this explanation of yours was cool.  So here we go.......

*Numbers 31:7-18   God orders all Midianites killed, except virgin girls and girl children (those were reserved for the Israelite men-- a little feisty reward for their hard work of war)
*Deuteronomy 3  God's people wiped out 60 whole cities and villages, men women and children. But they got to keep the livestock and plunder. (Score!) Then they divided the land up between them.
*Joshua 6    The Israelites destroyed the entire city of Jericho: men, women, children and livestock too! (Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho,  Jericho....... and the walls came tumbling down!)
*Judges 21    11 of the 12 tribes of Israel murdered everyone in Jabesh Gilead (their own people!) Except the virgins again.... because they needed wives for one of their tribes. Oh! But there weren't enough virgins for all the men, so the men were ordered to hide alongside the road, and when they saw a girl who was pleasing to their eye, they ambushed her and carried her away to another city to make her his "wife". (AKA rape her repeatedly until she gave up). Chivalry wasn't their strong point.....
Ok, just one more, I have to stop somewhere.....
*1 Samuel 15    God orders the slaughter of the Amalekites-  men, women, children, and animals (I guess none of them needed wives this time)
OK Dredge, ask the Holy Spirit to give you fresh insight and knock my socks off!
I'm unfamiliar with a couple of these events, so I'll have to read up on them, before I respond.

 In the meantime, consider that the Caananites were destroyed, apart from their Nephilim blood-lines, as a result of there evil practices, such as child sacrifice.

And, 
"Now the Lord said to Abram,  'Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land [of the Caananites] that I will show you.  And I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'" - Genesis 12:1-3.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 21, 2017, 03:07:07 PM
I'm unfamiliar with a couple of these events, so I'll have to read up on them, before I respond.

 In the meantime, consider that the Caananites were destroyed, apart from their Nephilim blood-lines, as a result of there evil practices, such as child sacrifice.

And, 
"Now the Lord said to Abram,  'Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land [of the Caananites] that I will show you.  And I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'" - Genesis 12:1-3.
First, Dredge, thanks for responding at all. Second, your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me. You say in this post that God destroyed Canaanites because of child sacrifice (among other evils, of course), yet God himself ordered his own version of child sacrifice (and adult sacrifice). Repeatedly. For land. Can you kind of see where a person might have a problem with this?
And your adherence to defending this God's bloody orders is quite unsettling. Because if God shouldn't be questioned, if he just needs to be obeyed because he's GOD, and we are just simple humans, without any real "understanding", then any ole person today can justify ANY thing by saying that God told him or her to do it. You see where this could lead? We can see where this HAS lead.
So when you ask if we think the church is really that gullible and stupid.... well, yes. Yes we do. But don't get me wrong. I know how it feels to love this God and to want to defend him to skeptics and heathens. I know how it feels to be so frustrated with people questioning my intelligence because of my beliefs. I also know that there may come a time when all of the stupid, pat answers may not be enough any more. When you start wondering why this God needs you to defend him.
When that time comes, don't be scared. Follow those questions all the way. After all, if He's really God, he should be able to stand up to the scrutiny, right?  Be inquisitive,  and be brave.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 21, 2017, 04:16:01 PM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that. 

Do you really think the Church is that gullible and stupid?

I know that the Catholic church is composed of human beings. Human beings exhibit many qualities, among them gullibility and stupidity, as well has dishonesty and greed. Your church is no more exempt from these than any other group of people, as history has repeatedly shown.




Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.

Point 2 - "Hallelujah!  Salvation and glory and power belong to out God, for his judgements are true and just!" - Revelation 19:2.

Point 3 - It sounds a tad disingenuous for someone who approves of abortion to be concerned about the murder of babies.  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I'll take that as a "yes." Congratulations. In this thread you've moved from questioning whether any Christians actually justified the murder of babies to being a Christian that justifies murdering babies. You must be proud of this manifestation of spiritual growth.

 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 21, 2017, 10:49:15 PM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that. 

Do you really think the Church is that gullible and stupid?

I know that the Catholic church is composed of human beings. Human beings exhibit many qualities, among them gullibility and stupidity, as well has dishonesty and greed. Your church is no more exempt from these than any other group of people, as history has repeatedly shown.




Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.

Point 2 - "Hallelujah!  Salvation and glory and power belong to out God, for his judgements are true and just!" - Revelation 19:2.

Point 3 - It sounds a tad disingenuous for someone who approves of abortion to be concerned about the murder of babies.  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I'll take that as a "yes." Congratulations. In this thread you've moved from questioning whether any Christians actually justified the murder of babies to being a Christian that justifies murdering babies. You must be proud of this manifestation of spiritual growth.

If I may make a prediction as to how he may respond, if it's anything like the bread and wine where he says form and substance are not the same, then he will have some leap of logic here as well.

Btw Jesus said the bread and wine are his blood and body flesh so "form and substance" has no relevance. It's either he said it and dredge contradicted him, or Jesus was wrong. But I'm willing to say it's both.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 22, 2017, 07:42:12 AM
Am I to understand that with this you are now counting yourself among the Christians who justify the murder of babies, Dredge?
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.

I'd hold an omnipotent poultry keeper to a higher standard than a mere human.
Farmer God should be able to selectively smite only the infected chooks.
How does disease get a look in with his chooks? mysterious ways I suppose.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 22, 2017, 12:56:05 PM
^^^ True Dat. Why couldn't god selectively rid the poor Canaanite people of all traces of Nephilim? Maybe a nice plague that only affects heavenly DNA?  maybe mental illness, so that they would be shunned by their society? There are so many options, and even more for an almighty, creative god.
Why does this God so often seem to rely on these violent, greedy Israelites to do His bidding? It's just not the path that I would choose if I was God. He could really use a few pointers....
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 22, 2017, 06:25:13 PM
Yeah why not just cure all the disease? Why even have disease? It seems more and more this book was written by a guy who didn't understand anything and reacted with aggression and violence and said it was God's will. Kind of like when a human doesn't understand something and makes something up to compensate for it's ignorance. God was the compensation for their ignorance.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 22, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
Yes Dredge, why?

:lol:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 22, 2017, 07:41:16 PM
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?
I don't know who the Nephilim were.
Could you please tell me who they were, according to you, and/or your god? 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 23, 2017, 01:59:16 AM
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?
I don't know who the Nephilim were.
Could you please tell me who they were, according to you, and/or your god?
I think you're asking Dredge this question,  but to save time, I can answer.
The popular thought is that Nephilim were the offspring of "sons of God" (fallen angels? Actual young gods? Regular humans; because elsewhere in the Bible, men are referred to as sons of God? We don't really know)  and human women.
The Bible doesn't say a whole lot about them, except that women found them "beautiful" (super hot), they were men of "great size", and they were "mighty men, men of reknown".
The Bible is pretty cloudy about whether they were god or bad, they seem good upon a first reading, but if you read into surrounding passages of scripture, you might see that they were evil. Some people even think that they were aliens.
So, in other words, nobody really knows who the Nephilim were. There certainly isn't enough info in that Bible to justify mass genocide to eradicate them.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 04:26:47 AM
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?
I don't know who the Nephilim were.
Could you please tell me who they were, according to you, and/or your god?
I think you're asking Dredge this question,  but to save time, I can answer.
The popular thought is that Nephilim were the offspring of "sons of God" (fallen angels? Actual young gods? Regular humans; because elsewhere in the Bible, men are referred to as sons of God? We don't really know)  and human women.
The Bible doesn't say a whole lot about them, except that women found them "beautiful" (super hot), they were men of "great size", and they were "mighty men, men of reknown".
The Bible is pretty cloudy about whether they were god or bad, they seem good upon a first reading, but if you read into surrounding passages of scripture, you might see that they were evil. Some people even think that they were aliens.
So, in other words, nobody really knows who the Nephilim were. There certainly isn't enough info in that Bible to justify mass genocide to eradicate them.

Thanks, Dragonia, I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

It is confusing,  :shifty:, but thank you for trying to explain it to me.

When Dredge said:
Quote
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.
I thought there was going to be a 'huge revelation' behind this Nephilim story,  :headscratch:  but...there's nothing. :shrug:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4d/f8/d1/4df8d1117dc3798242895c1293e9bf79.jpg)
Why would he bring up the Nephilim story to justify "god's order" to murder babies?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 05:04:36 AM
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?
I don't know who the Nephilim were.
Could you please tell me who they were, according to you, and/or your god?
I think you're asking Dredge this question,  but to save time, I can answer.
The popular thought is that Nephilim were the offspring of "sons of God" (fallen angels? Actual young gods? Regular humans; because elsewhere in the Bible, men are referred to as sons of God? We don't really know)  and human women.
The Bible doesn't say a whole lot about them, except that women found them "beautiful" (super hot), they were men of "great size", and they were "mighty men, men of reknown".
The Bible is pretty cloudy about whether they were god or bad, they seem good upon a first reading, but if you read into surrounding passages of scripture, you might see that they were evil. Some people even think that they were aliens.
So, in other words, nobody really knows who the Nephilim were. There certainly isn't enough info in that Bible to justify mass genocide to eradicate them.

Thanks, Dragonia, I appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

It is confusing,  :shifty:, but thank you for trying to explain it to me.

When Dredge said:
Quote
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?  When bird flu strikes, entire communities of poultry have to killed to stop the spread of the disease.
I thought there was going to be a 'huge revelation' behind this Nephilim story,  :headscratch:  but...there's nothing. :shrug:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4d/f8/d1/4df8d1117dc3798242895c1293e9bf79.jpg)
Why would he bring up the Nephilim story to justify "god's order" to murder babies?

Because God did it and that makes it okay.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 23, 2017, 05:10:05 AM
Why would he bring up the Nephilim story to justify "god's order" to murder babies?

Supposedly there were some Nephilim in Canaan (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+13%3A28-33&version=NIV).

Quote
But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan.”

Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, “We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.”

But the men who had gone up with him said, “We can’t attack those people; they are stronger than we are.” And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

The thing is, according the the Bible the Nephilim existed in the pre-Deluge world. Therefore they should have all died when YHVH sent his Great Flood, along with every other damned human being on the planet except for Noah and his family. How Nephilim reappeared among the descendants of the righteous Noah is not explained in the Bible.

The focus on the Nephilim is a Protestant thing--the Catholic church doesn't give them a lot of attention, so it will be interesting to see what Dredge comes up with.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 05:31:17 AM
Because God did it and that makes it okay.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 05:37:05 AM
Why would he bring up the Nephilim story to justify "god's order" to murder babies?

Supposedly there were some Nephilim in Canaan (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+13%3A28-33&version=NIV).

Quote
But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan.”

Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, “We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it.”

But the men who had gone up with him said, “We can’t attack those people; they are stronger than we are.” And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

The thing is, according the the Bible the Nephilim existed in the pre-Deluge world. Therefore they should have all died when YHVH sent his Great Flood, along with every other damned human being on the planet except for Noah and his family. How Nephilim reappeared among the descendants of the righteous Noah is not explained in the Bible.

The focus on the Nephilim is a Protestant thing--the Catholic church doesn't give them a lot of attention, so it will be interesting to see what Dredge comes up with.

Thanks, Recusant.  :computerwave:

It will be interesting to see what Dredge comes up with. :popcorn:
It will be interesting to see why he brought up the Nephilim topic, as well.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on February 23, 2017, 06:00:12 AM
Certain Protestant preachers are big on demonology, and according to one particular interpretation, the Nephilim are descended from the union of fallen angels with human women, and therefore EVIL!!! So killing them and their babies would be GOOD!!!

However, the Catholic church doesn't really support the doctrine that Nephilim are descended from fallen angels. In fact, church fathers like Augustine specifically rejected it on metaphysical grounds (angels are of a different "nature" than people--and so mating with them is impossible).
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 06:16:21 AM
Certain Protestant preachers are big on demonology, and according to one particular interpretation, the Nephilim are descended from the union of fallen angels with human women, and therefore EVIL!!! So killing them and their babies would be GOOD!!!

However, the Catholic church doesn't really support the doctrine that Nephilim are descended from fallen angels. In fact, church fathers like Augustine specifically rejected it on metaphysical grounds (angels are of a different "nature" than people--and so mating with them is impossible).
But... :headscratch:
...God and Mary are/were of different "nature."
God raped her, and Jesus was born.
That is/was possible?  :eyebrow:
Angels can't mate with humans, but god can?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 06:19:18 AM
Because God did it and that makes it okay.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Lol idk what that means but it's just a guess
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on February 23, 2017, 06:30:42 AM
Because God did it and that makes it okay.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Lol idk what that means but it's just a guess

 :lol:
I'm sorry.
That's just how I look at people when they start to talk to me about god.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 07:21:09 AM
Because God did it and that makes it okay.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/W2I1bhIkneGT6/giphy.gif)

Lol idk what that means but it's just a guess

 :lol:
I'm sorry.
That's just how I look at people when they start to talk to me about god.

Lol well I am an atheist. I hope you know what I meant now.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on February 23, 2017, 01:03:26 PM
I was raised Protestant and probably never heard the Nephilim mentioned one single time, in all the thousands (no joke) of sermons I have heard.
The people who make a big deal of Nephilim probably think that they have special insight into the nature of these "people". Those are the people who like to feel smarter and more spiritual and more highly favored by God than the rest of us.  It's Christian arrogance. Love it.....
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 04:59:29 PM
I was raised Protestant and probably never heard the Nephilim mentioned one single time, in all the thousands (no joke) of sermons I have heard.
The people who make a big deal of Nephilim probably think that they have special insight into the nature of these "people". Those are the people who like to feel smarter and more spiritual and more highly favored by God than the rest of us.  It's Christian arrogance. Love it.....

I think you're describing narcissists.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on February 24, 2017, 05:20:36 PM
Point 1 - Do you know who the Nephilim were?
I don't know who the Nephilim were.
Could you please tell me who they were, according to you, and/or your god?
I think you're asking Dredge this question,  but to save time, I can answer.
The popular thought is that Nephilim were the offspring of "sons of God" (fallen angels? Actual young gods? Regular humans; because elsewhere in the Bible, men are referred to as sons of God? We don't really know)  and human women.
The Bible doesn't say a whole lot about them, except that women found them "beautiful" (super hot), they were men of "great size", and they were "mighty men, men of reknown".
The Bible is pretty cloudy about whether they were god or bad, they seem good upon a first reading, but if you read into surrounding passages of scripture, you might see that they were evil. Some people even think that they were aliens.
So, in other words, nobody really knows who the Nephilim were. There certainly isn't enough info in that Bible to justify mass genocide to eradicate them.

I really value our ex-theists who know their bible inside out!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 28, 2017, 11:39:51 PM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Quote
In this thread you've moved from questioning whether any Christians actually justified the murder of babies to being a Christian that justifies murdering babies. You must be proud of this manifestation of spiritual growth.
As far as I know, the God doesn't murder babies.  You support abortion, which is murder, and yet you try and preach to me!  You're a first-class hypocrite.

Furthermore, an atheist has no right to preach his morality to anyone else, since his morality is purely subjective, being being based on nothing more than his own opinion.  Having no reference point or authority but his own thoughts, no atheist can say, "I am right and you are wrong."

Besides, the lower animals have no morality, so why should human beings?  According to atheist theology, a human being with morals is as meaningless as a flea with morals.  And your religion - science - says, life has no meaning, so the murder of babies has no meaning.  Therefore your concern for the murder of babies has no meaning; it's just vacuous rhetoric and a philosophical dead-end.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on February 28, 2017, 11:52:26 PM
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 01, 2017, 01:54:57 AM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Quote
In this thread you've moved from questioning whether any Christians actually justified the murder of babies to being a Christian that justifies murdering babies. You must be proud of this manifestation of spiritual growth.
As far as I know, the God doesn't murder babies.  You support abortion, which is murder, and yet you try and preach to me!  You're a first-class hypocrite.

Furthermore, an atheist has no right to preach his morality to anyone else, since his morality is purely subjective, being being based on nothing more than his own opinion.  Having no reference point or authority but his own thoughts, no atheist can say, "I am right and you are wrong."

Besides, the lower animals have no morality, so why should human beings?  According to atheist theology, a human being with morals is as meaningless as a flea with morals.  And your religion - science - says, life has no meaning, so the murder of babies has no meaning.  Therefore your concern for the murder of babies has no meaning; it's just vacuous rhetoric and a philosophical dead-end.

I don't remember recusant ever doing more than asking you a question. If that's preaching to you then you might have some problems identifying social cues. (Maybe too much time in the church?) Anyway you spin it, it's still an exaggerated misrepresentation on your part.

I hope you understand that we don't spin things according to our personal beliefs, or at least try not to. And when we do make a mistake, someone points it out to us and we correct it. It's a slow and rigorous process of perfection, but it works.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 01, 2017, 02:47:34 AM
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.

So what we have here children is a cherry picker in it's natural habitat.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 01, 2017, 05:02:47 AM
I saw the Light.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2rmqs94.jpg)

(http://68.media.tumblr.com/7da3de7989e250f5d57fe9d0619cb8d8/tumblr_n2yqxoJh531toet33o1_250.gif) (https://media.giphy.com/media/d4WCW6Ypq4a64/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 01, 2017, 08:35:51 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/d4WCW6Ypq4a64/giphy.gif)

I always thought that this part of the movie meant exactly what you mean.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on March 01, 2017, 03:02:59 PM
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.
I didn't assume you could come up with many more excuses for God, and that's ok, whatever your reason. Because we both know there's really no defense for the behaviors in these passages of scripture.
As far as this  "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature). goes, can we discuss this for a minute?  First, I don't ever read feminist lit. I am not really a feminist like the idea that most people associate with feminism. I am a humanist, which just means that I believe in kindness to others, doing things for the good of others, and people have value just because they are people.
So, Dredge, do you have children? A sister? A close female friend? Can you imagine with me for a second the scene from Numbers 21, an army comes in to your city of ........ let's say 150,000 people. They go through your town slaughtering all the men, but saving the women and children. There is blood and fighting and screaming and crying. It is a day from hell. So your daughter and sister and mother and little brother are herded to the enemy leader, some of them are still sobbing, some are in shock. But some are glad at least that their mother or their children have been left alive. But wait, the leader gets pissed about something, and orders everyone but the virgin girls killed. So the terror and horror starts again, as the mothers and sons are all slashed and brutally murdered. And this time it's a slaughter, because they're all together.
There was no pretty way to kill a person back then. No kool-aid, no gas, no pills. It was pretty much by the sword. So your virgin daughter is the only one left alive after all of this. I just think of my girl.... can you imagine being forcefully given to one of the enemy men to be his "wife"? Do you think these girls will ever willingly submit to having sex with their new "husbands"? I don't think so. So my theory is maybe based on my imagination, but not feminist literature. If you think about it for a minute, any rational person would see that I'm probably not too far off base.
As far as this:You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked., You are right, there is much more to it. But there's SO much destruction, and legalism and fear,  that if it was real, the sweet, saving, love parts would be called into question, and such dire doubts would be cast over the whole picture, that it would be hard to blind myself to the bad stuff. So yes, you are totally right that my view of this God is unbalanced, because this God seems quite unbalanced.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on March 01, 2017, 04:33:28 PM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on March 01, 2017, 06:22:10 PM
^^^
*BAM*
In yo' face!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 01, 2017, 09:13:45 PM
Any miracles approved by the Church are not the work of charlatans.

It must be very comforting for you to believe that.
And what do you know about how the Church goes about accepting a miracle?  I suspect ... nothing at all.  You get your "information" from atheists and other assorted enemies of the Church, who don't know what they're talking about either.  Or you see charlatans like Benny Hinn in action and presume that all other Christians operate likewise.  So you speak from a position of rank ignorance, rendering your opinions on the matter worthless.

Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."

Well said sir.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 01, 2017, 09:24:11 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/d4WCW6Ypq4a64/giphy.gif)

I always thought that this part of the movie meant exactly what you mean.
:snicker:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 01, 2017, 09:27:29 PM
Your conjecture regarding me is inaccurate. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I went to a Catholic school run by the Sisters of St. Mary for eight years, and a Catholic high school run by the De La Salle Brothers as well. Though I stopped believing in the Christian myth when I was 11 years old, I got top marks in Religion class throughout my time in Catholic schools. I served as an altar boy for four years. I'm thoroughly educated in Catholic doctrine, tradition, and practices, and know the procedure by which the church goes about certifying miracles. In addition I've independently studied the history of the Catholic church for many years. My thoughts on the Catholic church come from anything but "rank ignorance."
I didn't know all this...Wow! Thank you for sharing it with us. :chin:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 16, 2017, 05:35:47 AM
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.
I didn't assume you could come up with many more excuses for God, and that's ok, whatever your reason. Because we both know there's really no defense for the behaviors in these passages of scripture.
You're right; I doubt if any human could come up with a defence for such deeds.  Maybe Yahweh knows something that we don't.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 16, 2017, 05:41:19 AM
I can't stand whenever someone justifies evil. I've seen Trump and Christians do this all the time. Trump will justify things such as rape and racism, while Christians justify things such as murder of babies and cannibalism.

Can you cite an example of 1) a Christian justifying the murder of babies; and 2) of cannibalism, please?

"Slaughter of the Canaanites" | Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites)
The slaughter of every Canaanite may have something to do with God's wish to wipe out the Nephilim that were present in that race.
I know this isn't exactly along the lines of this thread,  but I have to answer Dredge.... I can't stop myself...
This is an explanation (a bad one--pure guesswork)  that I don't think I've heard before. And I've heard a lot of explanations.
I'd like to hear your creative excuses for other annihilations in the OT. Hey! I know! We can play a game! I like games.
How about I'll give you a few Bible events and you tell me another explanation for them. After all, this explanation of yours was cool.  So here we go.......

*Numbers 31:7-18   God orders all Midianites killed, except virgin girls and girl children (those were reserved for the Israelite men-- a little feisty reward for their hard work of war)
*Deuteronomy 3  God's people wiped out 60 whole cities and villages, men women and children. But they got to keep the livestock and plunder. (Score!) Then they divided the land up between them.
*Joshua 6    The Israelites destroyed the entire city of Jericho: men, women, children and livestock too! (Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho,  Jericho....... and the walls came tumbling down!)
*Judges 21    11 of the 12 tribes of Israel murdered everyone in Jabesh Gilead (their own people!) Except the virgins again.... because they needed wives for one of their tribes. Oh! But there weren't enough virgins for all the men, so the men were ordered to hide alongside the road, and when they saw a girl who was pleasing to their eye, they ambushed her and carried her away to another city to make her his "wife". (AKA rape her repeatedly until she gave up). Chivalry wasn't their strong point.....
Ok, just one more, I have to stop somewhere.....
*1 Samuel 15    God orders the slaughter of the Amalekites-  men, women, children, and animals (I guess none of them needed wives this time)
OK Dredge, ask the Holy Spirit to give you fresh insight and knock my socks off!

According to your belief system, all life is the result of evolution, a process which is blind, mindless and without plan or purpose.  All life is a collection of atoms that just happened to form biological machines.  A human life therefore has no more meaning than the life of a flea, or a rat, or an amoeba - or a rock, for that matter.
 The meaningless universe (ie, a meaningless bunch of atoms) wouldn't care if every baby is murdered and the human race consequently ceased to exist.   No life at all needs to exist ... nothing needs to exist - not even atoms.  

Since this is your belief system, how did you come to the conclusion that it is immoral to murder babies?   Your God of Nothingness doesn't care about the life of babies or what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, good or evil, so why should you?   In fact, your belief system says there is no way of knowing what is morally right or wrong.
Consider the case of Adolf Hitler, who murdered 6 million Jews - men, women and children.  Which law passed down by your meaningless universe says that what he did was immoral? 

You have somehow convinced yourself that right and wrong exist, despite the fact that your belief system says they don't.  Therefore, what you think of as "morality" is no more than a delusion ... that is ultimately produced by an arrangement of the meaningless atoms that make up your brain.  In other words ... your life, your thoughts, your beliefs, your morality and your deeds are all meaningless.


Furthermore, on what basis are your personal standards of morality superior to anyone else's standards of morality?  I put it to you that you have no basis at all on which you can claim morality superiority over anyone else.   So by what authority can you sit in judgement on someone else ... Yahweh, for example?  
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on March 16, 2017, 10:39:41 AM
Apparently the Holy Ghost didn't feel like dealing with those stories of holy bloodthirst.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on March 16, 2017, 01:53:30 PM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on March 16, 2017, 02:23:40 PM
Oh Dredge, I wish we could have a conversation in person instead of this way... it would be much more productive. But allow me to address many of your points, for there are many. And please bear with me, because this may take a bit.
According to your belief system, all life is the result of evolution, a process which is blind, mindless and without plan or purpose.  All life is a collection of atoms that just happened to form biological machines.  A human life therefore has no more meaning than the life of a flea, or a rat, or an amoeba - or a rock, for that matter.
 The meaningless universe (ie, a meaningless bunch of atoms) wouldn't care if every baby is murdered and the human race consequently ceased to exist.   No life at all needs to exist ... nothing needs to exist - not even atoms. 
Well.... yes. Technically you're correct. Human life has no meaning to the "Universe" because the universe has no consciousness. We humans are the ones who assign meaning to life, or to the universe, or to the sickness that caused your uncle to stay home from work in NYC on 9-11-01(hypothetical). We assign meaning and it's a very subjective process.
Since this is your belief system, how did you come to the conclusion that it is immoral to murder babies?
You are assuming that you understand my belief system... I'm pretty sure you don't, because you can't at this point in your life.
But my beliefs about what's good and bad come from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions. And we all have some kind of internal compass that does this. Most of us are stuck living in community with others, and we can see that we don't want others killing our babies, so we don't kill others' babies, and it seems good to all of us that we should not allow the killing of babies, so we make it a law. It's quite elementary and I always wonder why this needs explanation.
Do you realize that every society has limits, laws, prohibitions and punishments, whether they follow God or not? Christianity, and more broadly, God, is NOT necessary to point us in a "moral" direction. We decide what kind of society we want to live in and then makes laws and punishments appropriately.
   Your God of Nothingness doesn't care about the life of babies or what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, good or evil, so why should you?
Ummmm, I don't really have a God of Nothingness...... I don't think there's such a god.
Consider the case of Adolf Hitler, who murdered 6 million Jews - men, women and children.  Which law passed down by your meaningless universe says that what he did was immoral?
Yeaaaahhh...... I don't really have a meaningless universe either. And I'm pretty sure there are no laws being passed down by any universes. As far as the immoral part, please see my comment above.
You have somehow convinced yourself that right and wrong exist, despite the fact that your belief system says they don't.  Therefore, what you think of as "morality" is no more than a delusion ... that is ultimately produced by an arrangement of the meaningless atoms that make up your brain.  In other words ... your life, your thoughts, your beliefs, your morality and your deeds are all meaningless.
Actually, what you think of as morality is no more than a delusion, taken from a book that you have to pick and choose what parts to live and which parts are terrible and archaic and bad for peaceful societies.
My morality and my deeds are given meaning by me. When I go pull weeds in my garden or read a book to my kids or help a person in the parking lot, the universe doesn't care. A god  doesn't care. But I do, and that's what makes these things worth doing and my life worth living. My life isn't meaningless, because it's meaningful to me. Not in a cosmic sense, just to those around me. And it's the same with everyone. It's actually a beautiful, freeing concept. We can create our own meaning in this short life. I will cease to exist someday, thus ending my meaning, and that's ok with me, because I am going to make my time a happy stretch.  ;D
Furthermore, on what basis are your personal standards of morality superior to anyone else's standards of morality?  I put it to you that you have no basis at all on which you can claim morality superiority over anyone else.   So by what authority can you sit in judgement on someone else ... Yahweh, for example? 
I don't know if I would say that I have "moral superiority" over anyone, including an imaginary God. I do, however, feel disgust and revulsion about certain things, again, stemming from what I think about what I would like done (or not done) to me and what I think is good for society in general.
You may be interested that our world today is demonstrating that the more atheist a nation becomes, the lower their crime rates are, the lower the teen pregnancy rates are, the happier the people are... the list goes on. Societies are better all-around when you take the Bible Baggage away.
http://www.alternet.org/8-countries-where-atheism-accepted-even-celebrated-instead-demonized
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
There are many many articles on this, but here are 2. I think it's very telling.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 16, 2017, 03:04:48 PM
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video, a claim: has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 16, 2017, 03:38:32 PM
Dredge ... your responses are quite unsatisfactory to me.
No kidding!  In that case, I won't waste any more time addressing your other queries, although I will make the point that your "wife = rape her repeatedly until she gives up" theory is not found in the Bible but is pure invention on your part (you probably got this idea from some poisonous feminist literature).

 You also need to distinguish between what God commanded and what some Hebrews did of their own accord.  For example, after the events described in Judges 21, we read, "In those days ...  every man did what seemed right in his own eyes."

You opinion of the God of the Bible seems unbalanced.   There is a lot more to this God than just being a Destroyer of the wicked.

----------------------------

Perhaps you think I have been a Catholic all my life and have never bothered to question my faith.  No; I was not always a Christian ... but then I saw the Light.

So what we have here children is a cherry picker in it's natural habitat.

And in the centre of every cherry is a poisonous  pit . . .
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on March 16, 2017, 03:42:07 PM
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
Part of that is human nature, to throw assumptions and opinions around like facts. But part of it stems from the certainty of a Christian that they know the underlying motivations and hearts of people. Because the Bible tells them, and because the Holy Spirit is whispering to them in their hearts. We know it's arrogant, presumptive Bullshit,  but they don't see it that way. I remember feeling like I knew a person better than they knew themselves because I had the 'inside story" from the Bible. Which is now shameful to me, but probably most Christians have some nuance of this same outlook.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 16, 2017, 09:57:27 PM
Something I'm noticing about dredge, is when he engages with someone, he often puts out a claim about that person. Which I discussed in my video has no evidence supporting itself. It's like Donald Trump claiming his phones were wire tapped or that the earth is flat or that Satan is real. There is no reason to believe anything he says.
Part of that is human nature, to throw assumptions and opinions around like facts. But part of it stems from the certainty of a Christian that they know the underlying motivations and hearts of people. Because the Bible tells them, and because the Holy Spirit is whispering to them in their hearts. We know it's arrogant, presumptive Bullshit,  but they don't see it that way. I remember feeling like I knew a person better than they knew themselves because I had the 'inside story" from the Bible. Which is now shameful to me, but probably most Christians have some nuance of this same outlook.

At some point, I was there too. Not because I read the Bible, but because I thought I could read people. And I based these assumptions on my past experiences and analysis of the current situation. But one day I met someone who I couldn't read, yet thought I could and it blew up in my face. I have also met people who think they know the value of someone's argument because they look at it at face value.

All these things have in common is that they don't dive deeper than what they think they already know. It's when I learned active listening that I really began to understand people. People contradict themselves but they have reasons connecting the ideas that you won't get unless you know how to listen properly. And when someone points out those contradictions as being bad than that's when a person develops a bad attitude. They don't like being told they are wrong because they aren't wrong but people like one dimensional characters. Too much TV will do that.

Sorry went off on a tangent.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 20, 2017, 04:26:13 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 20, 2017, 04:32:18 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?

We would all kill each other that's why.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 20, 2017, 08:00:28 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Looks like you are having a hard time with this, Dredge.

So, you want all your priests not to give a fuck about their congregations then? Your "everloving" religion would collapse rapidly.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on March 20, 2017, 10:06:04 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?

Unlike the others, I'm not going to fall for your bullshit trolling ploy of going on tangents and asking completely unrelated questions.

You said there's no way atheists can have any sort of morality without direction from God and ought to running around killing babies or something because it makes no difference.

I said anyone with the slightest inkling of empathy can easily understand why that is not the case.

If this truly does not make sense to you, please seek help. You are a sociopath.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dragonia on March 20, 2017, 12:05:24 PM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Dredge, I assume the point that you are trying to make is that God is where our morals come from. That our codes of human decency must come from somewhere, and that we are different from animals because we alone are created in God's image.
But please understand,  no matter what "should"s you throw at us
Quote
  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Quote
Your God of Nothingness doesn't care about the life of babies or what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, good or evil, so why should you?
the fact remains that we humans, churched or not, DO feel a sense of right and wrong.  We DO feel empathy, along with a thousand other human feelings. This is not a contradiction,  unless you are stuck in a little mind box of religion and God. You will never convince someone about God with this argument because it is horrible and it just makes you look like a crazy asshole, the more you argue that we shouldn't care about murdered babies. I know you're trying to make a point, but it's not working. All you have to do is open your eyes and notice reality.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 20, 2017, 01:11:06 PM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Because sharks are not social creatures.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 20, 2017, 03:00:09 PM
Even chimps have empathy and a sense of right and wrong - mostly learrned in their family/clan group via observation and life's little lessons (like getting slapped for breaking the rules.)

The important point is that the great apes, including humans, developed the genetic ability to learn those lessons. There is no need for a supernatural influence.

Psychopaths, sociopaths, paedophiles (including some priests) etc either did not inherit that ability or got damaged somehow. The historical evidence for "evil" priests, of all kinds, does nothing for god's reputation. Even dogs hace the ability to develop a kind of empathy, so far as we know they have no knowledge nothing of the supernatural. Tasman devils, honey badgers and wolverines etc did not apparently!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 21, 2017, 06:01:29 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?

We would all kill each other that's why.
So what?  What makes you think humans need to exist?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 21, 2017, 06:13:38 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Looks like you are having a hard time with this, Dredge.

So, you want all your priests not to give a fuck about their congregations then? Your "everloving" religion would collapse rapidly.
I'm not talking about Christian morality.  I want to explore the moral implications of the atheist belief that life is purely materialistic, ie, the result of meaningless chance; that this life is all there is to existence; that there is no Creator God or gods.  According to " science", a shark is essentially no different to a human, since they are both just machines fashioned by the blind, meaningless process of evoltion - so empathy is neither good nor bad; it's a scientific ireelevance. If empathy is essential for survival, that is also irrelevant, since humans don't need to exist.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 21, 2017, 06:45:33 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Because sharks are not social creatures.
Why be social?  Why not be anti-social if you want to?   Ted Bundy, for example, was anti-social, and evidently, he liked being anti-social.  If he was an atheist, he could have used this sort of reasoning:  "Science says life is meaningless and I am nothing more than an accidental machine made up of meaningless atoms.  This life is all there is, so I'm going to do whatever the hell I like before I die (I imagine a lot of career criminals think this way).  I don't care if my actions mean others will suffer greatly - because I just don't care.  And I don't care if history remembers me as psychopathic monster who was responsible for sickening violence and untold pain and misery, because I will be dead and anyone aware of me will be dead one day too.".

 When a shark kills a human, we call it "nature", but when a human kills a human, we call it murder and immoral.  But this charge of immorality cannot be defended by the naturalism of science, which underpins the belief system of Western atheism. 
So when an atheist says such-and-such is immoral, they should know that that is just their opinion, based on their emotional response ... and nothing else.  In other words, their "morality" is meaningless and ultimately worthless. 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 21, 2017, 07:05:58 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Looks like you are having a hard time with this, Dredge.

So, you want all your priests not to give a fuck about their congregations then? Your "everloving" religion would collapse rapidly.
I'm not talking about Christian morality.  I want to explore the moral implications of the atheist belief that life is purely materialistic, ie, the result of meaningless chance; that this life is all there is to existence; that there is no Creator God or gods.  According to " science", a shark is essentially no different to a human, since they are both just machines fashioned by the blind, meaningless process of evoltion - so empathy is neither good nor bad; it's a scientific ireelevance. If empathy is essential for survival, that is also irrelevant, since humans don't need to exist.

You ask these questions but cannot accept the answers we offer. That makes your actions pointkess and our responses fruitless.

Just carry on with your vision of things if that satisfies your expectations of life and, hopefully, makes you a worthy member of society. If you were half as empathetic, half as charitable, half as considerate as some atheists that I have met you would be a good person.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 21, 2017, 07:24:20 AM
Well.... yes. Technically you're correct. Human life has no meaning to the "Universe" because the universe has no consciousness. We humans are the ones who assign meaning to life. 
Assigning meaning to meaninglessness doesn't alter it's meaninglessness.  If a monkey throws paint on a canvas and a human comes along and sees "meaning" in the monkey's "painting", all we have still is a meaningless mess of paint on a piece of canvas.

Quote
You are assuming that you understand my belief system... I'm pretty sure you don't, because you can't at this point in your life.
But my beliefs about what's good and bad come from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions. And we all have some kind of internal compass that does this. Most of us are stuck living in community with others, and we can see that we don't want others killing our babies, so we don't kill others' babies, and it seems good to all of us that we should not allow the killing of babies, so we make it a law. It's quite elementary and I always wonder why this needs explanation.
Do you realize that every society has limits, laws, prohibitions and punishments, whether they follow God or not? Christianity, and more broadly, God, is NOT necessary to point us in a "moral" direction. We decide what kind of society we want to live in and then makes laws and punishments appropriately.
I don't "understand" your belief system?  All I need to "understand" about your belief system is the part that says life arose by chance from inanimate matter, there is no spirit world or god(s) and that this life is all there is to existence. 
So having "understood" this much correctly, I can then make certain claims about your morality - regardless of what morality you happen to subscribe to or whatever "rational consideration" you employed to arrive at your morality. 
Anyhow, instead of calling it your belief system, I will call it your "science".

Btw, your "rational considerations" are as subjective and ultimately meaningless as morality itself.  What might seem rational to you may seem irrational to someone else.  Besides, which part of your "science" says someone has to behave according to what is "rational", or fair, or for the good of others? 
There is no reason for a person to even behave according their own rationality and standards of morality (conscience) - many a thief believes it's wrong to steal and many an adulterer believes it's wrong to commit adultery.


Quote
I don't know if I would say that I have "moral superiority" over anyone, including an imaginary God. I do, however, feel disgust and revulsion about certain things, again, stemming from what I think about what I would like done (or not done) to me and what I think is good for society in general.


By criticising the actions of Yahweh you are making a judgement.  You are saying, "According to me, your morality is rubbish."  In other words, your think your morality is superior.  The problem with this attitude is, you cannot prove that your morality is superior, since your morality is based on nothing more than your opinion, and you cannot prove that your opinion is more valid than anyone else's. 

On top of this you can't even tell me why it is immoral to kill babies in the first place.  Saying you find it revolting or anti-social tells me nothing about why it is immoral.

Quote
You may be interested that our world today is demonstrating that the more atheist a nation becomes, the lower their crime rates are, the lower the teen pregnancy rates are, the happier the people are... the list goes on. Societies are better all-around when you take the Bible Baggage away.
http://www.alternate.org/8-countries-where-atheism-accepted-even-celebrated-instead-demonized
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
There are many many articles on this, but here are 2. I think it's very telling.
I'll have to look into this.  Even anecdotally, I'm skeptical.  Christianity has done a great deal in terms of curbing uncivilised behaviour (btw, apparently their God, Yahweh, is a monster who thinks nothing of "murdering" babies, so I wonder where all this admirable civilised behaviour comes from). 

Consider how drastically Christianity changed the Vikings, for example, who were vicious and ruthless barbarians.  Wives in India no longer have to burn alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands.  South Sea Islanders are longer head-hunters and cannibals.  The Mayans no longer sacrifice a virgin daily to ensure the sun rises.  The list goes on ...
 Back in the 1950's, were there security guards on suburban trains; drug addicts robbing and stealing and dying in the streets, suicide rates sky-high?  One hears stories from old folks about how they would leave their doors unlocked when they went out, or how their children were safe to walk to and from school.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 21, 2017, 07:33:25 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Looks like you are having a hard time with this, Dredge.

So, you want all your priests not to give a fuck about their congregations then? Your "everloving" religion would collapse rapidly.
I'm not talking about Christian morality.  I want to explore the moral implications of the atheist belief that life is purely materialistic, ie, the result of meaningless chance; that this life is all there is to existence; that there is no Creator God or gods.  According to " science", a shark is essentially no different to a human, since they are both just machines fashioned by the blind, meaningless process of evoltion - so empathy is neither good nor bad; it's a scientific ireelevance. If empathy is essential for survival, that is also irrelevant, since humans don't need to exist.

You ask these questions but cannot accept the answers we offer. That makes your actions pointkess and our responses fruitless.

Just carry on with your vision of things if that satisfies your expectations of life and, hopefully, makes you a worthy member of society. If you were half as empathetic, half as charitable, half as considerate as some atheists that I have met you would be a good person.
If I were your Philosophy teacher I would give you 0/10 for this answer.   
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 21, 2017, 07:39:56 AM
 Well, that would demonstrate just how much out of touch with reality, with life as it is lived, the average philosoohy teacher is!

[I tried quote your last post, Dredge, but kept getting an error message that the message body was empty!  :)  ]
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 21, 2017, 12:01:27 PM
I want to live because I enjoy life.  I observe the same attitudes in others.  I also find that people are more likely to treat me well if I treat them well.  I want people to treat me well so that I can continue to live as long as possible.  That is a basis for "morality" right there: treat others well so they will treat you well so you can enjoy life longer. 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 21, 2017, 05:32:09 PM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?

We would all kill each other that's why.
So what?  What makes you think humans need to exist?

Why are you questioning their need to exist? Do you think they all need to be wiped out?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 22, 2017, 06:22:14 AM
You said there's no way atheists can have any sort of morality without direction from God ...
Wrong.  Show me where I said that.

Quote
... and ought to running around killing babies ...
Wrong.  Show me where I said that.

Quote
... because it makes no difference.
According to evolution and the "science" that you base your atheist life on, all life is meaningless bcoz it is the result of a series of meaningless accidents; no life needs to exist in the first place; and a human life is worth no more than the life of, say, a mosquito - therefore killing a baby is as trivial and "immoral" as killing a mosquito.  And it would matter if all babies were killed and the human race became extinct, because your "science" says no life needs to exist, let alone human life.

-------------------------
My query about empathy doesn't mean I think it's worthless.  I merely want to know how empathy is worth something according to "science", since "science" forms the basis of the belief systems of most Western atheists.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 22, 2017, 06:36:35 AM
You will never convince someone about God with this argument because it is horrible and it just makes you look like a crazy asshole, the more you argue that we shouldn't care about murdered babies. I know you're trying to make a point, but it's not working. All you have to do is open your eyes and notice reality.
I don't like talking about killing babies, but I'm trying to point out the logical implications of the "science" that you, as an atheist, base your life on.  Rare is the atheist who will accept the reality of his perceived predictament - that life is meaningless and that morality is meaningless.

... Which all leads back to your criticism of Yahweh, whom you claim is immoral for "murdering" babies - a claim that seems very weak to me, according to your atheism. 
For example, you have failed to provide a reason why Yahweh shouldn't kill babies if he wants to - other than you find such behaviour distasteful.  I don't like drinking coffee without sugar and milk, therefore people who drink coffee without sugar and milk are immoral - in effect, this is the size of your argument. 

Furthermore, your "science" says that a human life is no more important than the life of, say, a bug.   If Yahweh killed a bug you wouldn't call that immoral, but when Yahweh kills a human, you call it immoral.   In other words, by rating a human above a bug, you are contradicting the very "science" that you base your life on.  You can't have it both ways.  Based on your "science", how can you prove that a human being is more important than a bug?

This is on top of another perplexing claim of yours: You admit that human life is meaningless, but your life is meaningful.  How can something be meaningless and meaningful all at the same time?  Perhaps I'm simply not intelligent enough to understand such a concept.




Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 22, 2017, 06:47:06 AM
Just carry on with your vision of things if that satisfies your expectations of life and, hopefully, makes you a worthy member of society. If you were half as empathetic, half as charitable, half as considerate as some atheists that I have met you would be a good person.
How do you know what is "good"?   Adolf Hitler no doubt thought is was  "good" to murder 6 million Jews.  In the name of equality, the Khmer Rouge thought it "good" to exterminate a quarter of the population of Cambodia.   

How do you define "a worthy member of society"? 


And why should anyone be a "worthy member of society" or a "good person"?  Why not be a gangster, instead?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 22, 2017, 06:53:46 AM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?

We would all kill each other that's why.
So what?  What makes you think humans need to exist?

Why are you questioning their need to exist? Do you think they all need to be wiped out?
I don't think humans need to be wiped out.  But quite a few environmentalist fanatics think a global cull would be very beneficial for the planet (Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest).

According to your "science", no life needs to exist.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 22, 2017, 07:50:10 AM
[Quote still regestering as empty]

Sad to say it but the final scales of pseudo-science are falling and exposing the true core: the basic, unadorned believer.

No amount of re-iteration will get through that barrier.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2017, 11:28:43 AM
Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest.

Yeah, like that time that Satan destroyed almost all of humanity with a great flood.  Oh, wait .....
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on March 22, 2017, 01:27:26 PM
It comes down to the same twaddle that's been peddled by casuistic god-botherers for millennia. The only "real" morality is that which some group of pious self-important mountebanks says comes from a supposedly supernatural external source that they believe to exist in a realm that's safely out of reach to anybody alive. 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Davin on March 22, 2017, 02:40:32 PM
These are my problems with morality that is supposedly god sourced.

One, morality is supposed to be a person determining the consequences of those actions and making a decision to try to seek out the least harmful action. But with god belief, the followers tend to remove themselves from the decision process to follow what they claim to be moral actions decided by their god. So at best, the god is the moral agent and the followers are acting amorally. More likely however,  the followers have given up acting morally to the second problem.

The second problem is that no one has a direct line to their god. While many claim to, it's never been reliably demonstrated. So what even the followers of supposedly "objective morality" are left with, are subjective interpretations of that morality. And that's at best. Since they cannot demonstrate that the messages/feelings/thoughts actually come from their god, all we can be sure about, is that some people claimed or are claiming to speak for their god about what is moral or not.

There is no path for us humans that leads to objective morality no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 22, 2017, 05:00:39 PM
Quote
... a realm that's safely out of reach to anybody alive.

Question is, Recusant, is it also out of reach of the dead, or the dead out of reach of it?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 22, 2017, 10:28:27 PM
Huh, every time i try to reply here, something goes wrong. I was pretty sure I replied to dredge
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 22, 2017, 10:30:20 PM
So what?  What makes you think humans need to exist?

Why are you questioning their need to exist? Do you think they all need to be wiped out?
I don't think humans need to be wiped out.  But quite a few environmentalist fanatics think a global cull would be very beneficial for the planet (Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest).

According to your "science", no life needs to exist.

You already had an answer to your own question. Why even ask it? It's clear you're just trying to prove your own prejudice.

Whether or not life needs to exist doesn't matter. It already does and we want to survive. We do survive. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm also not against uthenasia if someone is suffering a great deal. They have there own personal struggles that I'm not going to project my preferences on to. I will try to help them if I can but I can't always be there. So if someone slips through the cracks, at least let them have peace.

Quote
quite a few environmentalist fanatics think a global cull would be very beneficial for the planet
Statistics? Don't use an anecdote (if you even know what that is) because we already know none of us are the center of the universe.

Quote
(Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest)

You mean how God wiped out who knows how many people in the Bible as we've already described? I mean once we brought that up, you started questioning why we think it's bad for babies to be slaughtered. And why humans need to exist. And then you blamed it on science but really it's all coming from you and your Bible lol
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:15:11 AM
... the fact remains that we humans, churched or not, DO feel a sense of right and wrong.  We DO feel empathy, along with a thousand other human feelings.
How interesting that you trump the fact of human emotions over certain other "facts" that are central to your belief system. 
For example, you believe evolution to be an "estabished scientific fact".   According to this "fact" it is also a "fact" that a human being is just one meaningless machine amongst millions of other kinds of meaningless machines produced by evolution - therefore a human being has no more intrinsic worth than any any machine ... a flea, for example.  How can you then claim that is it immoral for Yahweh to murder a human being, when it is not immoral to murder a flea? 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:19:59 AM
Well, that would demonstrate just how much out of touch with reality, with life as it is lived, the average philosoohy teacher is!
Your opinion of what is reality is is no doubt very different to my opinon of what reality is.  What I have been discussing is reality from the point of view of your atheism.  So which of my comments means I'm out of touch with atheist reality"?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:25:01 AM
I want to live because I enjoy life.  I observe the same attitudes in others.  I also find that people are more likely to treat me well if I treat them well.  I want people to treat me well so that I can continue to live as long as possible.  That is a basis for "morality" right there: treat others well so they will treat you well so you can enjoy life longer.
I'm sorry, but what you have described is not morality.  It is simply a process by which you have learnt to behave in a certain manner in order to get a certain reward - "If I do such-and-such,  I will get such-and-such in return."  This is really no different to a dog learning that it will get a snack if it rolls over when its owner says "roll over" ... or learning that if it doesn't crap in the owner's house, it won't get punished.

Morality is more like ... not stealing when you know you can get away with it ... or not committing adultery when know you can get away with it - because you believe stealing or adultery is wrong.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:45:54 AM
Huh, every time i try to reply here, something goes wrong. I was pretty sure I replied to dredge
One of your posts ended up in the "Creationism/Intelligent Design" section, under "According to Dredge: Abiogenesis is Magic".
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 23, 2017, 10:07:14 AM
Well, that would demonstrate just how much out of touch with reality, with life as it is lived, the average philosoohy teacher is!
Your opinion of what is reality is is no doubt very different to my opinon of what reality is.  What I have been discussing is reality from the point of view of your atheism.  So which of my comments means I'm out of touch with atheist reality"?
True, every person has a unique view of reality that is determined by their genes, education, experience of life and that special, unique, factor that determines the exact result of all those influences. Though, since we have little real control over the final result, chsnces sre thst unique factor is genetically determined - two people might react in opposite ways to shared identical influences,  same sex siblings may be opposite poles in their personspality types.

Reiterating what I have said elsewhere, it is not a person's religiosity that determines whether or not they are a good person but their actions in life. The good person is good, the evil is evil, regardless of their belief/disbelief in the supernatural. The good person values others and thst sebse of value guves them purpose, a reason to work (sometimes very hard) to be nurses or doctors, teachers, aid workers etc. Some people need religion as a motivating factor, others do it simply because they know it needs to be done. That, the helping of others, is all some need to feel that their life has a reason, a purpose. They can die in the knowledge their life was mot wasted, not in believing their "reward" is yet to come.

This, and my last post in the other thread, are my last attempts to get you to look at people as people, not points on the scale of religiosity determined by your  beliefs.

These are amongst the fundamental things you have so  much trouble understanding and accepting it seems.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 23, 2017, 11:24:20 PM
Huh, every time i try to reply here, something goes wrong. I was pretty sure I replied to dredge
One of your posts ended up in the "Creationism/Intelligent Design" section, under "According to Dredge: Abiogenesis is Magic".

Cool...seems like you've conveniently ignored that too. Like you maybe do with everything that you don't like.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:16:53 AM
Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest.

Yeah, like that time that Satan destroyed almost all of humanity with a great flood.  Oh, wait .....
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.  These were the mighty men of old, the men of renown ... The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually ... Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence.  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth." (Genesis 6:4-12).  

So Yahweh destroyed the hordes of the wicked with a flood.  Sounds fair enough to me.   Yahweh saved the few righteous ones, who re-populated the planet.  So what's the problem?

Satan, on the other hand, hates humanity and would like to kill everyone  - good and bad.  Naughty Satan.  Bad Satan.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:25:47 AM
So what?  What makes you think humans need to exist?

Why are you questioning their need to exist? Do you think they all need to be wiped out?
I don't think humans need to be wiped out.  But quite a few environmentalist fanatics think a global cull would be very beneficial for the planet (Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest).

According to your "science", no life needs to exist.

You already had an answer to your own question. Why even ask it? It's clear you're just trying to prove your own prejudice.

Whether or not life needs to exist doesn't matter. It already does and we want to survive. We do survive. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm also not against uthenasia if someone is suffering a great deal. They have there own personal struggles that I'm not going to project my preferences on to. I will try to help them if I can but I can't always be there. So if someone slips through the cracks, at least let them have peace.

Quote
quite a few environmentalist fanatics think a global cull would be very beneficial for the planet
Statistics? Don't use an anecdote (if you even know what that is) because we already know none of us are the center of the universe.

Quote
(Satan is always coming up with novel ways to exterminate humans, as it is in his interest)

You mean how God wiped out who knows how many people in the Bible as we've already described? I mean once we brought that up, you started questioning why we think it's bad for babies to be slaughtered. And why humans need to exist. And then you blamed it on science but really it's all coming from you and your Bible lol

Look around on the 'net and you'll find plenty of greenies who claim that there are already too many polluters (humans) on the planet.   

"Statistics?"  What, you want me to spend a year finding all the aforementioned green nutters and count them?  Sorry, can't be bothered.
------------------
You accuse Yahweh of being "immoral" for killing babies, but the very "science" that your base your atheism on contradicts this accusation: According to evolution, the life of a human being is not only meaningless (since it is the result of a series of meaningless accidents), it is worth no more than the life of a bug.  So since killing a bug is not immoral, neither is killing a human being.  And what is immoral about doing away with a creature whose life is meaningless?

 Now, since your own "science" is against you regarding this matter, I'm wondering how you are going to prove this charge of immorality against Yahweh.  I look forward to hearing your Plan B.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:34:01 AM
What I need is an atheist to tell me how, according to "science" and evolution, the life of human being is more important than the life of a bug (any bug will do).
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:42:38 AM
It comes down to the same twaddle that's been peddled by casuistic god-botherers for millennia. The only "real" morality is that which some group of pious self-important mountebanks says comes from a supposedly supernatural external source that they believe to exist in a realm that's safely out of reach to anybody alive.
Is empty, unoriginal rhetoric the best you can muster against my argument?  Come on, surely an intelligent chap like you can think of something meatier than this!

-----------------------------

P.S.  What does "Has Received Bacon" mean?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on March 24, 2017, 09:25:15 AM
We don't usually let theists in on it, but since you claim to be "fascinated by atheism," I'm going to lift a corner of the veil: Bacon is the most holy sacrament of atheism. Don't tell anybody.

You didn't address the content of the supposedly "empty, unoriginal rhetoric." If it's so familiar to you, there must be an answer that you are also familiar with. Strange that you didn't use it.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 24, 2017, 06:17:58 PM
P.S.  What does "Has Received Bacon" mean?
(https://media.tenor.co/images/57c3f9a2185d112f0bd1319b6ff4854a/raw)
Do you agree with him/me/us?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 24, 2017, 07:48:04 PM
What I need is an atheist to tell me how, according to "science" and evolution, the life of human being is more important than the life of a bug (any bug will do).

Carl Sagan
Humans — who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals — have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and 'animals' is essential if we are to bend them to our will, make them work for us, wear them, eat them — without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us.
"Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" (1992) (co-written with Ann Druyan)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2017, 08:30:10 PM
Quote
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Wish the stupid bugger had included blood parasites, fungi, yeasts, bacteria and viruses! Unless we do some serious SCIENTIFIC stuff to fight them off they can get "dominion" over us!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2017, 03:51:03 PM
Only someone utterly lacking in empathy could be having a hard time with this.
Empathy.  Why is it necessary to have empathy?  A shark lacks empathy but survives just fine.  If a shark doesn't need empathy, why should a human?
Because sharks are not social creatures.
Why be social?  ...
We evolved that way. We are social creatures. For complex social creatures like humans, as opposed to social insects, empathy is a necessary quality for survival. Sharks are not social creatures. They do not require an empathic response to their own kind.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 02:50:15 AM

Look around on the 'net and you'll find plenty of greenies who claim that there are already too many polluters (humans) on the planet.   

"Statistics?"  What, you want me to spend a year finding all the aforementioned green nutters and count them?  Sorry, can't be bothered.
------------------
You accuse Yahweh of being "immoral" for killing babies, but the very "science" that your base your atheism on contradicts this accusation: According to evolution, the life of a human being is not only meaningless (since it is the result of a series of meaningless accidents), it is worth no more than the life of a bug.  So since killing a bug is not immoral, neither is killing a human being.  And what is immoral about doing away with a creature whose life is meaningless?

 Now, since your own "science" is against you regarding this matter, I'm wondering how you are going to prove this charge of immorality against Yahweh.  I look forward to hearing your Plan B.

Clearly you don't know what an anecdote is or care of it's fallaciousness. But I'll explain it to you anyway: an anecdote is taking personal experience and using it as a basis to judge all reality. Being a theist, you should at least appreciate that humans are not the center of the universe, so if you see it, you should at least be skeptical of what ever it is you just saw. I asked you for statistics so we would have at least more than your personal opinion.

And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning. If you think evolution is meaningless then it's nothing more than a figment of your imagination. Science does this as well and tests the meanings to see if they are true and worthy of belief by trying to falsify it. Then scientists record and analyze their results; which comes up with whole new meaningful ideas and inspiration. I however don't attach meaning to evolution at all and if I did, I'd say it's fascinating to the to see that life is mysteriously always improving. An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives. It didn't stop there and it we continue to evolve every day whether you like it or not.

I mean if you want to see who is worse, imaginary god or whatever ideals you think I have, you're admitting god is bad as well just by making the comparison. So the real question is: is god as bad as athiests or is he worse?

It's very sad that you have to downplay basic facts just to prop up your beliefs. What I've said here invalidates your argument. Please have a seat.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
Quote
An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives.

Now, hold it right there, Arturo! Access to food I wiil concede. Not to sure of the efficaciousbess of the other two...

It's the human brain that was able to design such things that evolved to be pedantic. But our Cro msgnon were probably as intelligent as us - we have the advsntage of a few 100k years if accumulated knowledge. But that also needed developing a reliable means of storing and passing on that knowledge, speech, graphics and writing. All the rest is just added frippery.

Trouble is we just had to invent, or imagine rather, the concept of the suoernatural in our early ignorance.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 09:08:15 AM
It has just occurred to me: the people that life is most meaningless to (apart from those unfortunate enough to be mentally ill) myst be the likes id our fellow member, Dredge.

Us atheists are, mostly, happily enjoying the one life that we have - raising kids, discovering new things, doing all kinds of good stuff because it needs doing or gives us pleasure.

The Drudges Dredges of this world have to survive this materialstic existence and have to suffer and/or do good things just to earn enough points to get to their imaginary "life after death". No altruism there then...

Poor sods.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:05:23 PM
Quote
An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives.

Now, hold it right there, Arturo! Access to food I wiil concede. Not to sure of the efficaciousbess of the other two...

It's the human brain that was able to design such things that evolved to be pedantic. But our Cro msgnon were probably as intelligent as us - we have the advsntage of a few 100k years if accumulated knowledge. But that also needed developing a reliable means of storing and passing on that knowledge, speech, graphics and writing. All the rest is just added frippery.

Trouble is we just had to invent, or imagine rather, the concept of the suoernatural in our early ignorance.

I'm not sure what your point is.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:09:23 PM
It has just occurred to me: the people that life is most meaningless to (apart from those unfortunate enough to be mentally ill) myst be the likes id our fellow member, Dredge.

Us atheists are, mostly, happily enjoying the one life that we have - raising kids, discovering new things, doing all kinds of good stuff because it needs doing or gives us pleasure.

The Drudges Dredges of this world have to survive this materialstic existence and have to suffer and/or do good things just to earn enough points to get to their imaginary "life after death". No altruism there then...

Poor sods.

I agree. Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules. We just doo things.

We've had this discussion before, I believe.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 07:24:29 PM
Quote
An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives.

Now, hold it right there, Arturo! Access to food I wiil concede. Not to sure of the efficaciousbess of the other two...

It's the human brain that was able to design such things that evolved to be pedantic. But our Cro msgnon were probably as intelligent as us - we have the advsntage of a few 100k years if accumulated knowledge. But that also needed developing a reliable means of storing and passing on that knowledge, speech, graphics and writing. All the rest is just added frippery.

Trouble is we just had to invent, or imagine rather, the concept of the suoernatural in our early ignorance.

I'm not sure what your point is.

I should have put a smiley and a wink in there! :)

Trying to be funny, modern tech can be as much a curse as a boon at times - 'swhy I have all but my landline switched to "Do not disturb" at nights. Those whom I care about know to use the landline for emergencies - got too many wrong numbers, ad texts and emails at night on the cell phone and tablet. Cars can be a bloody nuisance as well sometines.

But, we accumulated knowledge over the millennia, could say the first concept vehicle was a rolling log! We merely improved somewhat on the idea...  But, in our search for understanding, we had to bloody go and invent gods and devils, bad idea! Leads to Dredges et al.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:38:24 PM
Quote
An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives.

Now, hold it right there, Arturo! Access to food I wiil concede. Not to sure of the efficaciousbess of the other two...

It's the human brain that was able to design such things that evolved to be pedantic. But our Cro msgnon were probably as intelligent as us - we have the advsntage of a few 100k years if accumulated knowledge. But that also needed developing a reliable means of storing and passing on that knowledge, speech, graphics and writing. All the rest is just added frippery.

Trouble is we just had to invent, or imagine rather, the concept of the suoernatural in our early ignorance.

I'm not sure what your point is.

I should have put a smiley and a wink in there! :)

Trying to be funny, modern tech can be as much a curse as a boon at times - 'swhy I have all but my landline switched to "Do not disturb" at nights. Those whom I care about know to use the landline for emergencies - got too many wrong numbers, ad texts and emails at night on the cell phone and tablet. Cars can be a bloody nuisance as well sometines.

But, we accumulated knowledge over the millennia, could say the first concept vehicle was a rolling log! We merely improved somewhat on the idea...  But, in our search for understanding, we had to bloody go and invent gods and devils, bad idea! Leads to Dredges et al.

Well isn't that what evolution is? Improvement? You can say we are an accumulation of animals and we were just the cherry on top.

As for technology, humans aren't perfect either. We invented the technology we complain about. But it improves our lives. We just take it for granted and don't appreciate the quality of life we have now. 10 years ago I couldn't look up some factual information without getting on the computer at the library. Now I can do it from my toilet.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 08:09:35 PM
Quote
An example of evolution: we didn't always have cars, phones, grocery stores with easily accessible food. Over time these things came to existence and improved our lives.

Now, hold it right there, Arturo! Access to food I wiil concede. Not to sure of the efficaciousbess of the other two...

It's the human brain that was able to design such things that evolved to be pedantic. But our Cro msgnon were probably as intelligent as us - we have the advsntage of a few 100k years if accumulated knowledge. But that also needed developing a reliable means of storing and passing on that knowledge, speech, graphics and writing. All the rest is just added frippery.

Trouble is we just had to invent, or imagine rather, the concept of the suoernatural in our early ignorance.

I'm not sure what your point is.

I should have put a smiley and a wink in there! :)

Trying to be funny, modern tech can be as much a curse as a boon at times - 'swhy I have all but my landline switched to "Do not disturb" at nights. Those whom I care about know to use the landline for emergencies - got too many wrong numbers, ad texts and emails at night on the cell phone and tablet. Cars can be a bloody nuisance as well sometines.

But, we accumulated knowledge over the millennia, could say the first concept vehicle was a rolling log! We merely improved somewhat on the idea...  But, in our search for understanding, we had to bloody go and invent gods and devils, bad idea! Leads to Dredges et al.

Well isn't that what evolution is? Improvement? You can say we are an accumulation of animals and we were just the cherry on top.

As for technology, humans aren't perfect either. We invented the technology we complain about. But it improves our lives. We just take it for granted and don't appreciate the quality of life we have now. 10 years ago I couldn't look up some factual information without getting on the computer at the library. Now I can do it from my toilet.

Looks like I should have made it even clearer that I was trying to be funny.

Every advance in technoligy has some kind of disadvantage if you look deep enough. Fire is a life saver and a life destroyer, computers enable us to do ever more complex things far faster every year - until they go wrong and there is no back-up and people lose fortunes or even die.

Increaded dependancy = increased risk. There will still probably be furry animals to take hides from when the last polyester factory has failed. Unless we kill them all off with global warming and the human survivors have to constantly migrate to maintain life in a temporate clime of course. (Deliberate choice of worst possible case scenario as black humour  :)  )
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 11:43:59 PM
Yes that was exactly my point. Only I was looking at it from a glass half full position.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:15:02 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:23:37 AM
It has just occurred to me: the people that life is most meaningless to (apart from those unfortunate enough to be mentally ill) myst be the likes id our fellow member, Dredge.

Us atheists are, mostly, happily enjoying the one life that we have - raising kids, discovering new things, doing all kinds of good stuff because it needs doing or gives us pleasure.

The Drudges Dredges of this world have to survive this materialstic existence and have to suffer and/or do good things just to earn enough points to get to their imaginary "life after death". No altruism there then...

Poor sods.
I think living a life that adds up to and leads to something far greater makes a lot more sense than living a life that adds up to and leads to nothing. 
"We're on a road to nowhere" - Talking Heads, singing the Atheists'  Anthem.

Anyone who is happy with just this life is pretty easily pleased, I must say.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 27, 2017, 05:24:15 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
: show
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/07/RDJ_Woah.gif)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:44:30 AM
We evolved that way. We are social creatures. For complex social creatures like humans, as opposed to social insects, empathy is a necessary quality for survival. Sharks are not social creatures. They do not require an empathic response to their own kind.
Human being supposedly evolved to be highly social creatures with empathy and a whole host of other complex thoughts, feelings and emotions - yet millions of other creatures attest to the fact that such characteristics aren't necessary for survival.   

And I wonder how some tiny little, almost-imperceivable mistake in DNA-copying could have resulted in even a tiny little, almost-imperceivable bit of empathy in the mind of some hominid that previously had none?  Then how did that tiny little, almost imperceivable bit of empathy result in a survival advantage?  
---------------------------------------------

I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival?  
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 08:02:37 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis. To be honest, I knew you would go there. At this point, your moves on the chess board are entirely predictable because I've stolen most of your good pieces.

Also, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong. We agree freedom is good. We just don't need someone to tell us what to think because we find out on our own. At least I do.

A quote from scarface- "You a communist? Huh? How you like it: every day they tell you what to do, what to think, what to feel. You wanna be a sheep, like all thoae other people? Baa baa baa! You wanna work 10 fucking hours, you own nothing, you got nothing. You want a [unintelligible] looking after you, everything you do everything you say man?" Tony Montana, Al Pacino, talking about communism in Cuba. To me this sounds paranoid. Always having to worry about someone above you, who is going to punish you, and who has no consideration for your peace of mind or your paranoia they've induced by constantly spying on you. For someone to think that, they must have the same paranoia coming from above them. It's an endless regression of paranoia and monitoring that doesn't help anyone. (And for the record, this is why I'm against the usa government spying on it's own people.)
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 27, 2017, 08:47:31 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.

Massacres in the name of a peaceful faith (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith)

Too many of them to list. And it is still going on in the hands of Islamists, for they also worship your impotent (except in the minds of humans) deity.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 09:15:14 AM
It has just occurred to me: the people that life is most meaningless to (apart from those unfortunate enough to be mentally ill) myst be the likes id our fellow member, Dredge.

Us atheists are, mostly, happily enjoying the one life that we have - raising kids, discovering new things, doing all kinds of good stuff because it needs doing or gives us pleasure.

The Drudges Dredges of this world have to survive this materialstic existence and have to suffer and/or do good things just to earn enough points to get to their imaginary "life after death". No altruism there then...

Poor sods.
I think living a life that adds up to and leads to something far greater makes a lot more sense than living a life that adds up to and leads to nothing. 
"We're on a road to nowhere" - Talking Heads, singing the Atheists'  Anthem.

Anyone who is happy with just this life is pretty easily pleased, I must say.

Being easily pleased? You better believe it. I don't need no sky daddy giving me some mystical reward after decades of shit from him and his community. I can live right now with people I like and die when I die. A life worth living is the one I can die happy.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 09:23:38 AM
I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
Then why are you arguing against it? Don't you know there would BE NO CHURCH without even basic empathetic responses? A wolf is strong on it's own but it can't take down a buffalo without a pack. A shark survives well on it's own because it is well adapted to do so. Humans are not. They would tear each other to pieces if they could not empathize with their counterparts. This is why wars are started, one side demonizes the other to the point of attacking them.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 27, 2017, 03:22:04 PM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis. To be honest, I knew you would go there. At this point, your moves on the chess board are entirely predictable because I've stolen most of your good pieces.


The worst was the Spanish Inquisition.  You just had to be freakin' sick to do that stuff.  Sick.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 03:48:10 PM
Really all it is doing is taking our rhetoric and putting his own spin on it and throwing it back at us. "Treat him the way he treats me", "an eye for an eye". It's not really interested in answers to it's questions, it just wants to spit its rules out and abuse our mind. I've lived long enough with this kind of thinking to recognize it when it happens. It's not cool to play a charade while actually you're about to escalate the situation. It's like if the USA dropped nukes in the Korean war. That was a small conflict that dropping nukes would not be suitable for.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 27, 2017, 07:43:51 PM
We evolved that way. We are social creatures. For complex social creatures like humans, as opposed to social insects, empathy is a necessary quality for survival. Sharks are not social creatures. They do not require an empathic response to their own kind.
Human being supposedly evolved to be highly social creatures with empathy and a whole host of other complex thoughts, feelings and emotions - yet millions of other creatures attest to the fact that such characteristics aren't necessary for survival.   

And I wonder how some tiny little, almost-imperceivable mistake in DNA-copying could have resulted in even a tiny little, almost-imperceivable bit of empathy in the mind of some hominid that previously had none?  Then how did that tiny little, almost imperceivable bit of empathy result in a survival advantage? 
---------------------------------------------

I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
It's not necessary for animals that don't live in complex social groups. Empathy leads to social bonding. We see it in the other great apes. It may not be necessary for our ultimate survival either. As humanity passed 'peak child' in 2015 we are now as a species technically on our way to extinction. So how humanity survives or not remains to be seen.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 27, 2017, 07:45:56 PM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:24:30 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.

 
Quote
If you think evolution is meaningless then it's nothing more than a figment of your imagination.
Richard Dawkins: "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, nor purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference ... DNA neither cares nor knows.  DNA just is.  And we dance to its music."
"Natural selection, the blind, unconscious process that Darwin discovered ... has no purpose in mind.  It has no mind and no mind's eye.  It does not plan for the future.  It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all.  

If you can find meaning in any of that, then you have quite a vivid imagination, to put it mildly! 

  Most humans need to believe that life has meaning, atheists included - despite the fact that their "science" says life has meaning.   But that's ok, your "science" also says it doesn't matter what a human does or believes or thinks.  Live in a dreamworld or don't live in a dreamworld; it's all adds up to nothing in the end.

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Science does this as well and tests the meanings to see if they are true and worthy of belief by trying to falsify it. Then scientists record and analyze their results; which comes up with whole new meaningful ideas and inspiration.
Huh?  You've obviously missed my point.

Quote
I however don't attach meaning to evolution at all ...
Earlier in the post, you said this: "If you think evolution is meaningless then it's nothing more than a figment of your imagination".   Make up your mind!

Quote
What I've said here invalidates your argument.
I don't think you've even understood my argument, let alone invalidated it!

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:32:32 AM
I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
It's not necessary for animals that don't live in complex social groups. Empathy leads to social bonding. We see it in the other great apes. It may not be necessary for our ultimate survival either. As humanity passed 'peak child' in 2015 we are now as a species technically on our way to extinction. So how humanity survives or not remains to be seen.
According to evolution, there existed ancestors of human beings that had no feelings of empathy at all.  Then, due to a series of mistakes made in DNA-copying, along came humans with empathy.   Since empathy is the result of random mutations, not only is it unnecessary for survival, it is meaningless, being neither good nor bad.  Creatures with empathy are no more worthy of life or important or meaningful than creatures without empathy.

Furthermore, empathy doesn't need to exist, because creatures with empathy don't need to exist.  Species come and go; none of them need to exist.  So once again,  "science" says empathy is meaningless.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 28, 2017, 06:39:05 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions. In the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 06:39:25 AM
I'm not against empathy, but why is it necessary for survival? 
Then why are you arguing against it? Don't you know there would BE NO CHURCH without even basic empathetic responses? A wolf is strong on it's own but it can't take down a buffalo without a pack. A shark survives well on it's own because it is well adapted to do so. Humans are not. They would tear each other to pieces if they could not empathize with their counterparts. This is why wars are started, one side demonizes the other to the point of attacking them.
Again, you've missed my point.  I'm not arguing against empathy.  I'm saying that according to your "science", empathy is ultimately meaningless, making it neither good nor bad. 
The Christian view is that empathy is not meaningless, since life is not meaningless.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:01:50 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


Quote
Also, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:08:59 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 28, 2017, 07:19:05 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

Quote
In the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."

I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 28, 2017, 07:31:56 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


Quote
Also, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Wait. I thought Hitler was raised Catholic.  :notsure:

How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?
This article says that in the USA, 24% of the prison population is Catholic. Only 0.1% are atheists.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/)
How the fuck is that possible, Dredge?  :eyebrow:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 28, 2017, 07:34:17 AM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

Quote
In the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."

I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Let me ask you this- How do you know what you think is real? How do you know what is really real? How can you tell the difference between the two? And how can you be sure of any of that? How can you be sure of anything dredge???

Quote
you've missed my point
That makes two of us. I'm becoming more like you every day! Maybe one of us can show the other person how it's actually done and pull them out of this rut.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 28, 2017, 12:51:19 PM
And like I've said in the beginning, we make our own meaning.
It's impossible to "make ... meaning" out of something that is inherently meaningless - unless one adds serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible.
Hence religions.
Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion. 

Quote
In the context of the universe humans are meaningless. But in the context of humanity humans are not meaningless. Our ancient ancestors couldn't stand the thought of their actual meaningless in the context of the universe so they simply made up delusions that they actually mattered. Because with " serious doses of self-delusion ... then anything is possible."

I've noticed that atheists are always eager to point to their "science" are the be-all-and-end-all of everything, but are very reluctant to accept that the very same "science" says that their lives and everything pertaining to their lives are meaningless.
Your reply bears no relationship to what I wrote, I never mentioned or even alluded to science. Please stop the 'bait and switch' tactics. But to address your unrelated point. I don't know where you have been looking but I have moderated a number of atheist forums and have never seen this odd effect you allude to. The reason being is that atheists do not accept that their lives are meaningless in the human sense. I don't feel my fleeting existence is in the slightest bit meaningless. It is what it is and I'm happy to experience what I do. Stop making up lies to support your points, it only makes you look disingenuous, ignorant and immature. How old are you? I ask in case I have assumed, incorrectly, that you are not a teenager.

"Yep, religions, if false, can be attributed to a search for meaning and are pure delusion.  "
Religions are false based on their inability to demonstrate otherwise. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it. The burden of proof lies with you to provide evidence that religions do present a true and factual description of universe and its operation. If you can't then one has to conclude that religions are neither accurate or factual in any sense.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Davin on March 28, 2017, 03:48:44 PM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
Not as bad as the crusades, or God, or the kkk, or neo Nazis.
According to you, God doesn't exist, so you can't lump him in there with the historical figures you mention.

Furthermore, the deaths attributed to communists (ie, atheists) in the 20th century run into the hundreds of millions.  Another atheist, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for a war that claimed another 50 million lives.  The deaths attributed to religion in the entirety of history are tiny by comparison. 


Quote
Also, most athiests don't murder so you are naming outliers that are widley unrepresentative of who we are as a whole. Yeah some were bad, like a really small minority, like less than 1%, but most of us agree to the same set of rules that the rest of society does. We agree killing is wrong.
How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?  How many would be atheists?  (Hint:  Apparently, the first line of the oath taken by members of the Italian Mafia says, "There is no God")  I imagine comparing the figures would not add up to a good advertisement for atheism.
Wait. I thought Hitler was raised Catholic.  :notsure:

How many career criminals do you imagine would be Christians?
This article says that in the USA, 24% of the prison population is Catholic. Only 0.1% are atheists.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/)
How the fuck is that possible, Dredge?  :eyebrow:
Yes, Hitler was quite Catholic. Not to mention all the Catholic leaders that were happy with Hitler. (https://www.google.com/search?q=hitler+with+catholic+leaders&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx99evt_nSAhUKjVQKHfw6BdYQsAQILQ&biw=1539&bih=952) Very embarrassing for Catholics that many had supported Hitler and his efforts. So much so, that many, like Dredge, like to pretend that Hitler was an atheist in a pathetic attempt to rewrite history. They don't want the worst human in modern history among their ranks, but what are they to do since Hitler wasn't an atheist? They lie. Dishonesty and religion are familiar bedfellows.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Pasta Chick on March 28, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.

Ted Bundy was not athiest either. He was raised and identified as Methodist after his arrest, although he also joined the LDS for a time.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 28, 2017, 06:53:10 PM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.
No you don't, but you will. Arturo was not accusing theists of anything. He was expressing his personal feelings. You then compare him to three mass murders. Not acceptable. Two of those people weren't even atheists. And the third did not carry out his atrocities in the name of atheism to further the the aims of some atheist dogma, because such dogma does not even exist. Given the mass murders, mutilations and destruction done specifically to further assorted dogmas of assorted religions the hands of atheists are clean while those of religionists drip with blood.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 28, 2017, 07:35:34 PM
Oh, Dredge,  :smileshake:
Your lying is getting out of hand.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/PRUZgTmsaxqHm/giphy.gif)
Does your god have access to the internet?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Sandra Craft on March 28, 2017, 09:36:28 PM
I think Dredge may be using "atheist" in the sense that fundamentalist Xtians often do -- as anyone (including other Xtians) who do not practice very specific forms of Xtianity. 

This is how some Xtians can claim to be former atheists even tho they always believed in the existence of the Xtian god.  What they actually mean is they weren't good Xtians, or weren't the specific type of Xtian they now are.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 28, 2017, 10:18:37 PM
Dredge is using familiar tactics. Familiar to me in a way that I think is useful. He is using epistimology to question whether our values are valuable or not. "Why have empathy? Sharks don't have empathy" Sharks aren't social. "Why be social?" As if being social is something to be scorned. Then when he creates enough doubt, he comes in as the beacon on hope that all that pass through his gates will be saved. I've seen it a million times.

"I'm not arguing against it" But you are Dredge, and you've clearly demonstrated you can form an argument, and have mentioned that you understand philosophy. So don't lie. Especially when you demonstrated that you don't understand any philosophy one day, then show up as if you just went through a crash course the next day. You don't understand philosophy, you just cherry pick the parts that are useful to you as weapons of brain washing.

Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 29, 2017, 12:13:29 AM
...weapons of brain washing.
I like that.  :grin:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 29, 2017, 12:22:39 AM
...weapons of brain washing.
I like that.  :grin:

takes a bow
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 29, 2017, 06:33:20 AM
I think Dredge may be using "atheist" in the sense that fundamentalist Xtians often do -- as anyone (including other Xtians) who do not practice very specific forms of Xtianity. 

This is how some Xtians can claim to be former atheists even tho they always believed in the existence of the Xtian god.  What they actually mean is they weren't good Xtians, or weren't the specific type of Xtian they now are.
You could well be right. The thing is he is clueless about atheists. Maybe he may learn something here. One can but hope.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 29, 2017, 07:47:52 AM
I think Dredge may be using "atheist" in the sense that fundamentalist Xtians often do -- as anyone (including other Xtians) who do not practice very specific forms of Xtianity. 

This is how some Xtians can claim to be former atheists even tho they always believed in the existence of the Xtian god.  What they actually mean is they weren't good Xtians, or weren't the specific type of Xtian they now are.
You could well be right. The thing is he is clueless about atheists. Maybe he may learn something here. One can but hope.

Tank, I will give £100 to a charity of your nomination if there is any evidence that Dredge comes, sincerely, to any kind of rational understanding of the  natures of belief and unbelief. I very much doubt that he fully understands his own beliefs since he uses common formulas of argument - that we can only really answer with re-iterstions of our own formulas
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 29, 2017, 12:41:56 PM
I think Dredge may be using "atheist" in the sense that fundamentalist Xtians often do -- as anyone (including other Xtians) who do not practice very specific forms of Xtianity. 

This is how some Xtians can claim to be former atheists even tho they always believed in the existence of the Xtian god.  What they actually mean is they weren't good Xtians, or weren't the specific type of Xtian they now are.
You could well be right. The thing is he is clueless about atheists. Maybe he may learn something here. One can but hope.

Tank, I will give £100 to a charity of your nomination if there is any evidence that Dredge comes, sincerely, to any kind of rational understanding of the  natures of belief and unbelief.
I very much doubt that he fully understands his own beliefs since he uses common formulas of argument - that we can only really answer with re-iterstions of our own formulas
How could we tell? I don't trust a word he writes anyway. I just think he's just here for the shits and giggles.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 30, 2017, 07:39:34 AM
I think Dredge may be using "atheist" in the sense that fundamentalist Xtians often do -- as anyone (including other Xtians) who do not practice very specific forms of Xtianity. 

This is how some Xtians can claim to be former atheists even tho they always believed in the existence of the Xtian god.  What they actually mean is they weren't good Xtians, or weren't the specific type of Xtian they now are.
You could well be right. The thing is he is clueless about atheists. Maybe he may learn something here. One can but hope.

Tank, I will give £100 to a charity of your nomination if there is any evidence that Dredge comes, sincerely, to any kind of rational understanding of the  natures of belief and unbelief. I very much doubt that he fully understands his own beliefs since he uses common formulas of argument - that we can only really answer with re-iterstions of our own formulas
I've heard that the Help Dredge Buy a New Car Fund is a very fine charity.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 30, 2017, 08:09:32 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.
No you don't, but you will. Arturo was not accusing theists of anything. He was expressing his personal feelings. You then compare him to three mass murders. Not acceptable. Two of those people weren't even atheists. And the third did not carry out his atrocities in the name of atheism to further the the aims of some atheist dogma, because such dogma does not even exist. Given the mass murders, mutilations and destruction done specifically to further assorted dogmas of assorted religions the hands of atheists are clean while those of religionists drip with blood.
I didn't mean to compare Arturo to the ugly three - that is your mistaken interpretation.  I was attempting to point out that if humans have no fear of God, they are "free" to behave as they see fit, which could have nasty consequences.
------------------------------
Atheism is a core tenet of Communism; the two can't be separated.  So to kill for Communism is to kill for atheism - and Communists killed on a scale unprecedented in history.

Ted Bundy acted as though he had no fear of God or eternal damnation, which is hardly the sign of a Christian.  Actually, he acted like someone possessed by the devil ... not what you'd expect from a holy Christian boy.

Hitler was baptised a Catholic when he was a tiny widdle baby.   But as far as I know the adult Adolf wasn't a believer in or a follower of Jesus Christ. 
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2017, 09:52:22 AM
Dredge wrote:
Quote
Atheism is a core tenet of Communism; the two can't be separated.  So to kill for Communism is to kill for atheism - and Communists killed on a scale unprecedented in history.

Yes, numbers are significant in quantifying blame, the serial killer is viewed with more hatred than the person who kills one other. Is that the whole of the story though?

There are leaders and followers and the latter can have a "group personality", which can manifest as "mob rule". In groups humans can subsume  their personal values into the "group personality". This could include retribution for suppressed or hidden, real, inculcated or imagined, complaints, insults, hurts. It is not "Me" that is committing the crime but "We" who are justified in our actions.

This also applies to the crusaders who, if you asked them, fought for their god who was, of course, on their side - their priests and leaders told them so, all their lives and on the eve of battle. The larger the population, the more effective the propaganda of the leaders - political, economic or religious (usually a combination with a little "personal attitide" thrown in) - the larger numbers involved the larger the crime. Also the more authoratarian the regime sanctioning the actions, religious regimes being amongst the most authoratarian in history, the stronger the effect and the justification felt by the hoi poloi.

Stir "national personality" into the mix and it gets worse!

Yes, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot, all, arguably, suffering from mental illness, are easily chosen out of recent history. They are fine examples of what happens when humans with distorted but dominating personalities get power. Religiously motivated massacres are, in essence, the same beast, motivating the worst in human nature. So the Popes, historically, have a lot to answer for as well. Putin is, even now, cultivating the Russian Orthodox Church - and thus its dedicated followers.

And the "atheist" Nazis were either not actually atheists or knew, very well, the power of religion to motivate the sheep-like masses (as has been done since religion developed probably.)
(http://i.imgur.com/f9ZVMSL.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/fDNcdFP.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Abd3ysK.jpg)

Etc.

So, to kill for god is justified?

PS, thank you, Dredge, for your first post that exhibits a proper debating attitude and construction.

Later: A somewhat more beligernet view of the "Hitler was an atheist" controversy (https://richarddawkins.net/2014/10/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot/) and other nasty people.

I have never been much of a fan of RD, or, perhaps more precisely, of his more ardent followers.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Recusant on March 30, 2017, 10:49:12 AM
Dredge, ignoring the post in the other thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14943.msg348719#msg348719) won't make it go away.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2017, 03:32:33 PM
So, the fear of punishment by a god is the only thing that prevents people from behaving badly.

I imagine that the Catholic priests that molested and raped little boys would never have done so had they been religious.
I'm sure the higher ups that moved them around only to allow them to molest and rape new groups of young boys would never have done so if they only religious.
I'm sure that the fear of god is what prevented the Spanish Inquisition.
Would the crusades ever have happened if those in control were religious?
Gott mit uns? If only those Nazis would have found religion.
All those doctors that provided safe abortions that were blown up or otherwise murdered would still be alive if their attackers only found religion.

Meanwhile, the countries that are least religious suffer under a thriving economy, lower crime rates, fewer incarcerated, a higher happiness index, and better education. Those poor heathens.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on March 30, 2017, 07:40:59 PM
...
I was attempting to point out that if humans have no fear of God, they are "free" to behave as they see fit, which could have nasty consequences.
...
Is this what you would do, Dredge? Would there be nasty consequences if you didn't fear god?  :worried:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 30, 2017, 08:18:59 PM

Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.
No you don't, but you will. Arturo was not accusing theists of anything. He was expressing his personal feelings. You then compare him to three mass murders. Not acceptable. Two of those people weren't even atheists. And the third did not carry out his atrocities in the name of atheism to further the the aims of some atheist dogma, because such dogma does not even exist. Given the mass murders, mutilations and destruction done specifically to further assorted dogmas of assorted religions the hands of atheists are clean while those of religionists drip with blood.
I didn't mean to compare Arturo to the ugly three - that is your mistaken interpretation.
[/quote]
I'm glad to hear that. Best be careful what you write in future.

Quote
I was attempting to point out that if humans have no fear of God, they are "free" to behave as they see fit, which could have nasty consequences.
Again you demonstrate your utter contempt for atheists as human beings. As if without following some ancient mythology we can't possibly know right from wrong.



Quote
Atheism is a core tenet of Communism; the two can't be separated.  So to kill for Communism is to kill for atheism - and Communists killed on a scale unprecedented in history.
Communism is atheistic that is true. But that is only one tenant of it as a philosophy. No communist killed anybody in the name of atheism in the way Christians, Catholics and Muslims kill in the name of their religions.

Quote
Ted Bundy acted as though he had no fear of God or eternal damnation, which is hardly the sign of a Christian.  Actually, he acted like someone possessed by the devil ... not what you'd expect from a holy Christian boy.
He believed in god so effectively he killed in his name. He was a delusional psychopath influenced by his deep belief in god.

Quote
Hitler was baptised a Catholic when he was a tiny widdle baby.   But as far as I know the adult Adolf wasn't a believer in or a follower of Jesus Christ.
That is probably true. He appears to have been politically Christian/Catholic when it suited him.


Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 31, 2017, 06:59:19 AM
I don't feel my fleeting existence is in the slightest bit meaningless.
These feelings you have that your life is meaningful must be a delusion, because evolution says the life of a human being is no more meaningful and has no more worth than the life of a flea.


Quote
Religions are false based on their inability to demonstrate otherwise.
A trained philosopher would quickly recognise this statement as some kind of fallacy ... not to mention the fact that you are contradicting yourself - according to your own premise, your statement that religions are false is itself false because you cannot demonstrate otherwise.  (In order for you to demonstrate (to yourself, at least) that religions are false, you would need to die and see what is on "the other side".)

There is evidence that at least some aspects of my religion (Catholicism) could be true, even though a proof is lacking.  The lack of a proof - or even a lack of evidence - doesn't prove that my religion is false.

Albert Einstein believed in certain theories that he couldn't prove, but were proven to be true later on.
So it would have been unwise to say that his beliefs were false based on his inability to demonstrate otherwise.

If I said, "There is gold buried under my house", you can't say this is a false statement, simply because I have no proof that there is gold buried under my house - there may well be gold buried under my house.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dredge on March 31, 2017, 07:08:20 AM
Life as an athiest is liberating. We don't need to answer to anyone, follow anyone's rules.
Yeah, like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot.
You've had one vacation for trolling. If you carry on like this you'll get another one.
So t's ok to point out the crimes of theists, but pointing out the crimes of atheists is prohibited.  Got it.

Ted Bundy was not athiest either. He was raised and identified as Methodist after his arrest, although he also joined the LDS for a time.
It's entirely possible that he may have had an ulterior motive in identifying himself as a Christian or even joining the LDS.  It's also entirely possible that I may have been wrong to call him an atheist.

Which of Christ's teachings do you think compelled Tender Ted to rape and murder scores of young women?
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on March 31, 2017, 12:54:07 PM
I don't feel my fleeting existence is in the slightest bit meaningless.
These feelings you have that your life is meaningful must be a delusion, because evolution says the life of a human being is no more meaningful and has no more worth than the life of a flea.
1st of all, no.
2nd, you said that Richard Dawkins has told everyone that evolution means your life is meaningless. If you didn't say this, you at least implied it because that's all you say. (I'm actually not going to go back  a and look at what you said because I'm honestly tired of you). But Richard Dawkins has openly and repeatedly said the opposite. That science is poetic, and that implies evolution too. In fact, the very phrase you quoted shows him demonstrating his point.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 31, 2017, 01:08:26 PM
I don't feel my fleeting existence is in the slightest bit meaningless.
These feelings you have that your life is meaningful must be a delusion, because evolution says the life of a human being is no more meaningful and has no more worth than the life of a flea.
No. That's because you are putting an impossibly high bar on 'meaningful' and then claiming that everybody else is wrong when they don't agree or reach the bar. You are considering meaningful in the objective sense when there is no objective definition of meaningful. The issue here is the imperfection of human language. Wittgenstein dealt with these issues years ago. Basically language is imperfect. But its all we have. So stop with the semantic arguments to 'win' your case. Engage with the discussion.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Tank on March 31, 2017, 01:12:18 PM
Religions are false based on their inability to demonstrate otherwise.
A trained philosopher would quickly recognise this statement as some kind of fallacy ... not to mention the fact that you are contradicting yourself - according to your own premise, your statement that religions are false is itself false because you cannot demonstrate otherwise.  (In order for you to demonstrate (to yourself, at least) that religions are false, you would need to die and see what is on "the other side".)

There is evidence that at least some aspects of my religion (Catholicism) could be true, even though a proof is lacking.  The lack of a proof - or even a lack of evidence - doesn't prove that my religion is false.

Albert Einstein believed in certain theories that he couldn't prove, but were proven to be true later on.
So it would have been unwise to say that his beliefs were false based on his inability to demonstrate otherwise.

If I said, "There is gold buried under my house", you can't say this is a false statement, simply because I have no proof that there is gold buried under my house - there may well be gold buried under my house.
Ok, you should have no difficulty demonstrating religions, any one, are true. Please do so, or retract your assertion. If you neither prove your assertion or retract it I will have to assume you are simply trolling the forum.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 01, 2017, 03:27:48 AM

If I said, "There is gold buried under my house", you can't say this is a false statement, simply because I have no proof that there is gold buried under my house - there may well be gold buried under my house.

If we're getting into the weeds of semantics, we certainly can say that's a false statement when it's made without evidence of the gold.  What is a true statement is "there may be gold buried under my house".  You did acknowledge the "mayness" in an aside, but it needs to be in the actual statement.

Without the mayness acknowledged up front, statements about the supernatural or your god are no more worth anyone getting excited about than me saying "there's a dinosaur egg in my kitchen cupboard".
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on April 01, 2017, 03:41:24 AM

If I said, "There is gold buried under my house", you can't say this is a false statement, simply because I have no proof that there is gold buried under my house - there may well be gold buried under my house.

If we're getting into the weeds of semantics, we certainly can say that's a false statement when it's made without evidence of the gold.  What is a true statement is "there may be gold buried under my house".  You did acknowledge the "mayness" in an aside, but it needs to be in the actual statement.

Without the mayness acknowledged up front, statements about the supernatural or your god are no more worth anyone getting excited about than me saying "there's a dinosaur egg in my kitchen cupboard".

I'd like to add something. If you have a claim, which is a statement made with no supporting evidence, there is no reason to believe it. Just going around believing what people say means you're easily manipulated and not thinking critically about  other people's input. You have no reason to believe there is a flying teapot orbiting earth and is a waste of time to do so. So don't.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 01, 2017, 03:59:11 AM

Albert Einstein believed in certain theories that he couldn't prove, but were proven to be true later on.
So it would have been unwise to say that his beliefs were false based on his inability to demonstrate otherwise.


Also, and maybe one of the more sciencey people can jump in on this one, it's my understanding that a "theory" without evidence or exhaustive testing to back it up is a hypothesis, not an actual theory.  It certainly could turn into a theory in the future, but as long as it's just an educated guess, it's an hypothesis. 

I'm sure Einstein did have a variety of hypothesises that he was fond of, and spoke of as promising (we probably all do) but I'm not sure anyone as careful as Einstein would call it true ahead of the work required to turn it into an actual theory.  I also don't think anyone here would call a fondness for this or that hypothesis "false" unless it was being advanced as a theory when it hadn't reached that point yet.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 01, 2017, 04:26:58 AM

Which of Christ's teachings do you think compelled Tender Ted to rape and murder scores of young women?

That's a question only Bundy could answer, and that ship has sailed.  But there's no shortage of Xtians who use the Bible to support such things as murder and rape.  Just last year a Xtian lawyer in So. Cal. proposed a law that would allow citizens to execute homosexuals:   http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians (http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians)

In case you don't believe he's Xtian, he certainly thinks he is: https://matthewgregorymclaughlin.wordpress.com/ (https://matthewgregorymclaughlin.wordpress.com/)

If you're going to claim McLaughlin isn't a true Xtian, how are we supposed to know?  Your say-so, which smacks of the 'no true Scottsman' fallacy, or McLaughlin's word?  After all, he's the one who should know what he believes, and why.  Perhaps you could contact him about the biblical support for his proposed law -- I could too, but frankly I don't care enough.
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on April 01, 2017, 07:34:51 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 31, 2017, 06:59:19 AM
Quote
Albert Einstein believed in certain theories that he couldn't prove, but were proven to be true later on.
So it would have been unwise to say that his beliefs were false based on his inability to demonstrate otherwise.
Yes, but you can be 100% sure Albert had good, solid, rational maths as evidence to back up his theory before he publicised it. Gravity, light etc all obey predictable physical laws and the results already exist for anyone, of any or no faith, clever enough to discover them.

Please show us the maths, or any other rational system, that indicates the supernatural existing outside of the human mind.

[Attempt at an explanation as how to "determine" some the physical characterisics of an unidentified and invisible object:

There is a rope attached to a ring, the rope is pulled down tightly - indicating that there is a mass at the bottom end, but you cannot see that mass.
You can introduce a spring balance into the system to measure the weight of that mass + rope system.
Since tbe rope is available you can determine its construction and material and thus weight:length.
You can set the rope swinging and thus determine the period of the "pendulum" the system forms - from thus you can determine informstion about the length of that "pendulum".
From the decay rate of that swing you might obtain infirmation about the environnent the object is in (e.g. more resistance from a liquid than a gas.)
You have enough information to make a good estimate of the mass of the unknown/invisible object.
Your have to make the assumption tbat the rope is of the same material, construction and size for the whole of its length.
You still do not know the shape, density/size or the material of the unknown/invisible object.
Scientific ethics demand that you list all assumptions and known unknowns in your results.


Anyone spot any holes or can offer further determibable factors?]
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on April 01, 2017, 07:58:04 AM
Please show us the maths, or any other rational system, that indicates the supernatural existing outside of the human mind.

Oooh!  I like this.  :smilenod:
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Magdalena on April 01, 2017, 08:32:15 AM

Which of Christ's teachings do you think compelled Tender Ted to rape and murder scores of young women?

That's a question only Bundy could answer, and that ship has sailed.  But there's no shortage of Xtians who use the Bible to support such things as murder and rape.  Just last year a Xtian lawyer in So. Cal. proposed a law that would allow citizens to execute homosexuals:   http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians (http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians)
Wow!
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on April 01, 2017, 09:01:01 AM
Getting back to Trump...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/31/president-donald-j-trump-proclaims-april-2017-national-sexual-assault
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Dave on April 01, 2017, 09:19:18 AM
Getting back to Trump...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/31/president-donald-j-trump-proclaims-april-2017-national-sexual-assault

Should be in the "bullshit" thread!

OK, so back to pussy grabbing etc from May 1st then?

Hang on, hang on - it's April-the-first today . . .
Title: Re: I can't stand Trump or Christians. How do I get over this?
Post by: Arturo on April 01, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
Getting back to Trump...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/31/president-donald-j-trump-proclaims-april-2017-national-sexual-assault

Should be in the "bullshit" thread!

OK, so back to pussy grabbing etc from May 1st then?

Hang on, hang on - it's April-the-first today . . .

He plays a fool but can show precision when he targets someone.

Edit: Yes this is meant to be an April's Fools joke