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General => Politics => Topic started by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 08:56:13 PM

Title: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 08:56:13 PM
I've started a non-profit corporation down in Texas with the sole purpose of trying to convince Congress to not build a border wall along the Rio Grande in Texas. That's a natural border of over 1200 miles. Today I mailed 43 letters to every Texas Rep and Senator, as well as to Speaker Ryan, and a few local newspapers.  I'll have a website going soon, and will try my hand at an online petition.  My basic argument against the wall, specifically in Texas, is as follows:

1.  It would destroy the natural beauty of the border area, including Big Bend National Park, Big Bend Ranch, and the Lower Canyons of the Rio Grande;
2.  It would prevent US/Texas citizens from having unhindered access to their river, the Rio Grande;
3.  Since the wall cannot be built in the middle of the river (which is where the border is typically located), construction of wall anywhere else on the Texas side would effectively cede the area between the wall and the border to Mexico;
4.  It would disrupt ecological systems in the area;
5.  It is impractical to build a wall along the course of a winding river that features canyons, adjoining tributaries, lakes and cities;
6.  The project would be monumentally expensive and would not work - the same purpose of border security can be accomplished by hiring more Border Patrol (permanent jobs) and increasing electronic surveillance.;
7.  It would divide the private property of some U.S. citizens who have land in the area; and
8.  It would disrupt cultural ties and economic activity in the border cities.

It's a feeble effort, but I love the Rio Grande and its environment, having visited there all my life, and if I don't do something to object to the wall I'll never forgive myself if it is built.  I'll let you know when the website is up.  Then I'll gladly accept $1,000 from each of you.  Unfortunately, since it's lobbying, it won't be tax deductible.  But you'll feel good about it. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 07, 2017, 09:16:41 PM
Woot!!!! :)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Recusant on January 07, 2017, 09:22:37 PM
Good work. You seem to have done an excellent job of getting your organization up and running. I don't know if you're interested in this, but others here may be: Indivisible: A Practical Guide for Resisting the Trump Agenda (https://www.indivisibleguide.com/)

It might be worthwhile to register with them.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 09:27:25 PM
Good work. You seem to have done an excellent job of getting your organization up and running. I don't know if you're interested in this, but others here may be: Indivisible: A Practical Guide for Resisting the Trump Agenda (https://www.indivisibleguide.com/)

It might be worthwhile to register with them.

Thanks.  I'll check that out.

Read it - some really good strategies there.  I'll try to implement where I can.  thanks.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Firebird on January 07, 2017, 09:44:18 PM
I will happily chip in a little for your effort. I may not live anywhere near the border, but I don't want my tax dollars being wasted on this clusterfuck of an idea.
Latest news is that Trump claims we'll pay for the wall now, but Mexico will pay for it later. Former Mexican president Vicente Fox responded with this on Twitter:

Quote
TRUMP,  when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.

Speaking of which, Twitter is bleeding money and there's talk it may get sold or not survive. I'm really beginning to think we'd all be better off without it. Just being on a facebook hiatus has been liberating for me.
Title: Re: Stop the Wa
Post by: Tank on January 07, 2017, 09:52:48 PM
PROFESSOR FANCY PANTS is no more!  :hug:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 10:17:14 PM
It will take me a while to get my website and Facebook like I want them.  I'll keep everyone up to date.  thanks for the response.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 07, 2017, 10:31:30 PM
Yup, let's hope the actuality of the wall has as much substance as the content of Trump's intellect.

[Got a copy of Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" somewhere, must re-read it in the current context since America too it to beart.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper2/thoreau/civil.html for those who also want to read it.]

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 10:36:47 PM
My Facebook page for this is https://www.facebook.com/NoTexasWall/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel       "Stop the Wall" was not available for Facebook, but NoTexasWall gets the point across. 

Website will be later.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 07, 2017, 10:59:18 PM
I will happily chip in a little for your effort.

Thanks.  I'm going to try to have a PayPal account when I get my website going. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on January 08, 2017, 12:47:38 AM
I salute you EN. 

The wall concept is fucking stupid in the first place never mind all those perfectly valid reasons that you have given us.  The great wall of China did not work (except for a tourist attraction)  so why would we think that a mickey mouse sheet pile wall would work. Like hey, there are ladders and airplanes.  Motivated Mexicans are also good at making tunnels damned near all the way to San Diego.

A sheet pile is a flat concrete or steel member that is driven or excavated into the ground sufficient to support the above surface part.  We are talking about one hell of a lot of concrete to cover the nearly 2000 mile length. The whole idea is absurd. The cost would be stupendous, construction time extensive, and the whole idea is the madcap wet dream of a shameless huckster with his head up his ass. I do hope that we can collectively address those realities. Besides all that there are some pretty good reasons to work with the Mexicans who pick our lettuce, tomatoes and strawberries, mow our lawns, trim our trees,  repair our roofs, and do a lot of other things that the lazyass privileged Americans are not inclined to do.
Title: Re: Stop the Wa
Post by: Magdalena on January 08, 2017, 04:02:21 AM
PROFESSOR FANCY PANTS is no more!  :hug:
True.  :)
I'm beginning to think that he never actually was a, PROFESSOR FANCY PANTS.  :chin:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 08, 2017, 08:56:59 AM
Signed up to the Facebook page and shared it publicly.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Claireliontamer on January 08, 2017, 09:52:42 AM
Shared the page for you Bruce.  Also got John Iadarola from the Young Turks to share it via twitter - he has 80,000+ followers so hopefully that'll get you some traffic. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 08, 2017, 10:04:49 AM
Shared the page for you Bruce.  Also got John Iadarola from the Young Turks to share it via twitter - he has 80,000+ followers so hopefully that'll get you some traffic.
Excellent.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 08, 2017, 02:18:31 PM
Thanks!  I'll be adding more content as time goes on.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 08, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
I've requested a meeting with my House Representative, John Carter, to discuss Stop the Wall!  I'll let you know if he agrees to meet with me.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 08, 2017, 04:34:38 PM
I've requested a meeting with my House Representative, John Carter, to discuss Stop the Wall!  I'll let you know if he agrees to meet with me.
When did Mr Carter get back from Mars?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 08, 2017, 04:42:19 PM
I've requested a meeting with my House Representative, John Carter, to discuss Stop the Wall!  I'll let you know if he agrees to meet with me.
When did Mr Carter get back from Mars?

Hah!  Mars is a permanent residence for many US politicians.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 08, 2017, 05:01:52 PM
I've requested a meeting with my House Representative, John Carter, to discuss Stop the Wall!  I'll let you know if he agrees to meet with me.
When did Mr Carter get back from Mars?

Hah!  Mars is a permanent residence for many US politicians.

I can think of a few more that could be added.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2017, 10:00:10 PM
I will happily chip in a little for your effort. I may not live anywhere near the border, but I don't want my tax dollars being wasted on this clusterfuck of an idea.
Latest news is that Trump claims we'll pay for the wall now, but Mexico will pay for it later. Former Mexican president Vicente Fox responded with this on Twitter:

Quote
TRUMP,  when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.

Speaking of which, Twitter is bleeding money and there's talk it may get sold or not survive. I'm really beginning to think we'd all be better off without it. Just being on a facebook hiatus has been liberating for me.

What is Trump gonna do?  ::)

Another Trump Twitter war starting in 5,4,3,2...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on January 09, 2017, 06:18:45 AM
Couldn't anybody living on the coasts of Mexico just, you know, walk around it?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Papasito Bruno on January 09, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Hello Bruce,

It's excellent what you are doing, and you certainly have my support and backing. I'm not on Facebook, but if you set up a Twitter account for your non-profit I'll certainly follow and pass the word along.

Good luck and bravo Sir.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 15, 2017, 09:26:39 PM
Website is Website is https://sites.google.com/bburlesonlaw.com/stopthewall/home

I've continued to contact lawmakers about this.  Trump still says he wants to go forward with it, but many are saying it's impossible. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 15, 2017, 10:07:37 PM
Well done, Bruce! Willadmit I only fid a auickscan.

I also think The Wall is just rhetoric, but it is a worrying indicator of Trump's mindset and what that means for America.

The logistics alone, building roads for beavy vehicles to carry the matetials, would be a major project in itself. Or is he going to source the materials from the native rock and soil? Rip the whole area apart,straighten out the river . . .

Just done a Google Earth flyover... Hell of a lot of river there! Though I guess there are specific popular crossing regions at the moment.



Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Papasito Bruno on January 17, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
Website is Website is https://sites.google.com/bburlesonlaw.com/stopthewall/home

I've continued to contact lawmakers about this.  Trump still says he wants to go forward with it, but many are saying it's impossible.

Congratulations Bruce, this is excellent work. I'll try to share this with as many folk as I can in an effort to get this out there and into the hands of as many people as possible.

Again awesome job...

I suspect this Wall of Trump will go down as the biggest Boondoggle of all Boondoggles. A complete and useless expenditure of taxpayer money, along with a total waste of resources and manpower.

Folks arguing for this should look at how well the Maginot Line fared the French during WWII as static defenses are useless; as Patton said, "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.''
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 19, 2017, 02:05:17 AM
I’ve written letters to the entire Texas delegation and to all GOP Congresspersons in the other border states (the GOP Reps will decide on funding the wall).  I tried to email, but I discovered that many Reps won’t take emails outside their district, so back to the ole’ snail mail.  Here’s the link for the House for all addresses:  http://www.house.gov/representatives/
I'll keep going until I contact every GOP Representative - over 200 of them.

It’s actually fun to write these letters.  I feel like I’m doing something, even if it’s futile.  It helps me sleep at night.

Here’s a sample letter I wrote:

The Honorable Duncan Hunter
2429 Rayburn HOB
Washington, DC 20515

RE:  The proposed border wall between Texas and Mexico
To the Honorable Duncan Hunter:
Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I am writing as a concerned citizen of the United States and of Texas.  I’ve already written all the Representatives from my state, and now I’m writing to Representatives of other states. As a person who has spent a great deal of time enjoying the Rio Grande area, I am greatly concerned about the plan to build a wall along the Texas-Mexico border.  For the following reasons, I am against the construction of such a wall now or in the future:
1.  It would destroy the natural beauty of the border area, including Big Bend National Park, Big Bend Ranch State Park, and the Lower Canyons of the Rio Grande;
2.  It would prevent US/Texas citizens from having unhindered access to their river, the Rio Grande, as the border goes to the middle of the river;
3.  Since the wall cannot be built in the middle of the river, construction of a wall anywhere else on the Texas side would effectively cede the area between the wall and the border to Mexico;
4.  It would disrupt the ecological system in the area;
5.  It is impractical to build a wall along the course of a winding river that features canyons, adjoining tributaries, lakes and cities;
6.  The project would be monumentally expensive and would not work;
7.  It would divide the private property of U.S. citizens who have land in the area; and
8.  It would disrupt cultural ties and economic activity in the border cities.
While I share the concern about improving border security, the same goal can be accomplished by hiring more Border Patrol (permanent jobs) and increasing electronic surveillance. Please do not build a wall along the Rio Grande.

Sincerely,

Bruce Burleson
Stop the Wall!, a non-profit corporation
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 19, 2017, 11:27:42 AM
Good letter, Bruce  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on January 20, 2017, 06:22:32 AM
It would not be a good politics to list the biggest reason for not building the wall and not even mentioning it again. That reason is that is  a certifiably dumbfuck idea dreamed up by pie in the sky people who have no idea how impractical, expensive, and ultimately useless such a foolishly contrived structure would be.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 21, 2017, 09:20:14 PM
Updates from my Facebook page on Stop the Wall:  https://www.facebook.com/NoTexasWall/  you can see photos of my truck with my Stop the Wall stickers, making as many people mad as possible.

I’ve also revised the website a bit:  https://sites.google.com/bburlesonlaw.com/stopthewall/home

I’ve written all Texas Congressmen and Senators, and all GOP Congressmen from border states, urging them not to fund the Wall.  I’ve also written President Trump, Vice President Pence, Speaker Ryan, House Majority Leader McCarthy, Governor Abbott, Texas Speaker Straus, and Lt. Gov. Patrick.  I’ve requested a meeting with my Congressman, John Carter.

My letters to the editor were published in a couple of local newspapers.

So the struggle continues.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on January 21, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
You know it occurs to me now that Trump could well have foreseen that the wall was a non-starter in reality and will change his mind when it suits him. It could well have just been a campaign ploy. A populist banner like 'drain the swamp'.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 21, 2017, 10:38:52 PM
You know it occurs to me now that Trump could well have foreseen that the wall was a non-starter in reality and will change his mind when it suits him. It could well have just been a campaign ploy. A populist banner like 'drain the swamp'.

If he drops the idea, I will declare victory and go home.😊
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 22, 2017, 02:27:57 AM
I think if he believes he can use it to his advantage, he'll keep pushing the idea. And if the politicians catering to the same crowd think its working, they'll fall behind it too. I don't think the wall will ever be completed, but I think a lot of time and money could go in to the issue, as well as sections being built and landscape being destroyed.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on January 22, 2017, 04:57:30 AM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2017, 01:39:08 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2017, 01:59:32 PM
It's true that a wall will stop no one but I think he's going to build parts of it (I seriously doubt it's a construction he'll be able to finish).

It looks like a pharaonic project, that is, a vanity project of huge proportions. I can see how that kind of thing could appeal to people like Trump. I don't think he'll let go of that so easily.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 22, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.

Yeah, ladders a-plenty.

Presumably they will let themselves down on ropes on the US side.

Now, will they try to carry one long ladder or make sectional ladders, slot together bits that one person can carry?

Will there be lasers trained along the top of the wall? Whole lot of lasers with distance measuring hardware?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 22, 2017, 02:37:33 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2017, 02:38:17 PM
Even with a wall you will need border patrol and electronic surveillance, so just dispense with the extravagantly expensive and nature destroying wall, and use more border patrol and electronic surveillance.  You can have reasonable and effective border security without the stupid wall.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2017, 02:55:40 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...

Exactly! You know how you get into a country? Get a tourist visa and overstay your welcome. I know quite a few middle-class people who have done that.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 22, 2017, 04:12:41 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...

Exactly! You know how you get into a country? Get a tourist visa and overstay your welcome. I know quite a few middle-class people who have done that.

I believe that currently applies to the statistically largest group of illegal immigrants in the US
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2017, 09:04:57 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...

Exactly! You know how you get into a country? Get a tourist visa and overstay your welcome. I know quite a few middle-class people who have done that.

I believe that currently applies to the statistically largest group of illegal immigrants in the US

That's believable. It's just too easy.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 22, 2017, 11:28:07 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...

Exactly! You know how you get into a country? Get a tourist visa and overstay your welcome. I know quite a few middle-class people who have done that.

I believe that currently applies to the statistically largest group of illegal immigrants in the US

That's believable. It's just too easy.

Yup. In fact I know several Europeans who have done it. Which makes the racism of "illegals" = Mexicans specifically for some reason that much harsher.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2017, 11:44:10 PM
Plus, you know... Airplanes...

Exactly! You know how you get into a country? Get a tourist visa and overstay your welcome. I know quite a few middle-class people who have done that.

I believe that currently applies to the statistically largest group of illegal immigrants in the US

That's believable. It's just too easy.

Yup. In fact I know several Europeans who have done it. Which makes the racism of "illegals" = Mexicans specifically for some reason that much harsher.

 :chin: You know, when I went to a US consulate to get my visa I observed some interviews while waiting in line. Interviewers seemed to ask more probing and sometimes humiliating questions to people who looked less white (and poorer). I get why they would do that to people in less qualified jobs, there is the idea that those are wanting to escape to a developed country riding on the dream that there they will get good jobs, but based on skin colour?  :eyebrow:

When it was my turn, the interviewer didn't even look at my papers, didn't ask any probing questions, he just looked at me, at my passport and approved my visa. It was a relief, since I had paid a hefty sum for it beforehand, but it left quite an impression.   

* Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on January 23, 2017, 12:47:54 AM
I am monitoring this thread.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2017, 12:38:33 PM
Yesterday I was at a local park, and an Hispanic woman came up and asked me what my "Stop the Wall!" bumper sticker meant.  I explained my opposition to the border wall in Texas, and she asked me for one of the stickers, which I gave her.  My movement has now doubled in size.  ;D
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on January 23, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.

Yeah, ladders a-plenty.

Presumably they will let themselves down on ropes on the US side.

Now, will they try to carry one long ladder or make sectional ladders, slot together bits that one person can carry?

Will there be lasers trained along the top of the wall? Whole lot of lasers with distance measuring hardware?
Or shovels. There have already been tunnels that operated for years before discovered, and walls tend to only be above ground. If they're going to dig down 20+feet before building the wall... well, that will take a lot longer and cost way more. And still won't stop someone from digging a tunnel under it.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on January 23, 2017, 06:57:10 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.

Yeah, ladders a-plenty.

Presumably they will let themselves down on ropes on the US side.

Now, will they try to carry one long ladder or make sectional ladders, slot together bits that one person can carry?

Will there be lasers trained along the top of the wall? Whole lot of lasers with distance measuring hardware?
Or shovels. There have already been tunnels that operated for years before discovered, and walls tend to only be above ground. If they're going to dig down 20+feet before building the wall... well, that will take a lot longer and cost way more. And still won't stop someone from digging a tunnel under it.

Maybe they could get sledge hammers and home made bombs and blow the shit up?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on January 23, 2017, 07:03:54 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.

Yeah, ladders a-plenty.

Presumably they will let themselves down on ropes on the US side.

Now, will they try to carry one long ladder or make sectional ladders, slot together bits that one person can carry?

Will there be lasers trained along the top of the wall? Whole lot of lasers with distance measuring hardware?
Or shovels. There have already been tunnels that operated for years before discovered, and walls tend to only be above ground. If they're going to dig down 20+feet before building the wall... well, that will take a lot longer and cost way more. And still won't stop someone from digging a tunnel under it.

Maybe they could get sledge hammers and home made bombs and blow the shit up?
Even just a water canon can cut through concrete.

So many ways to circumvent a stupid wall, and the most common way (over staying a visa, as already mentioned), is still the easiest and won't be stopped by a wall.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on January 23, 2017, 08:02:33 PM
I was listening to the NPR radio this morning. A veteran border patrol man was being interviewed. He said that if we build an 18 foot wall there will be 19 foot ladders the next day. That is not all. He said that there will be so many 19 foot ladders that after two or three weeks there will be no need to bring your own. There will be  plenty of them left behind.

Correct. A wall will stop no one.

Yeah, ladders a-plenty.

Presumably they will let themselves down on ropes on the US side.

Now, will they try to carry one long ladder or make sectional ladders, slot together bits that one person can carry?

Will there be lasers trained along the top of the wall? Whole lot of lasers with distance measuring hardware?
Or shovels. There have already been tunnels that operated for years before discovered, and walls tend to only be above ground. If they're going to dig down 20+feet before building the wall... well, that will take a lot longer and cost way more. And still won't stop someone from digging a tunnel under it.

Maybe they could get sledge hammers and home made bombs and blow the shit up?
Even just a water canon can cut through concrete.

So many ways to circumvent a stupid wall, and the most common way (over staying a visa, as already mentioned), is still the easiest and won't be stopped by a wall.

I am starting to think maybe the "Wall" is just a way of saying "We hate you" and has no significance to people other than "gtfo".

I mean my Dad, as Mexican as he is, expresses mixed opinions on the oompa loompa. My father has said on multiple occasions that the only people who support him are "prejudice" but then when the inauguration speech happened, he tells me he liked it. I think possibly he listens only to people who are persistent and anecdotal.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2017, 02:23:04 AM
Look at this:  http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/border-series-texas/index.html

I especially like the English lady who has lived on the Texas border since 1946.  The curious thing is that 2 of the 3 people in the video voted for Trump, but agree that the border wall doesn't work.  Such a stupid idea.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2017, 04:27:36 AM
Trump is set to order the building of the wall.  It makes me sad and sick.  I'll keep fighting and hoping. Congress must deny the funding. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Firebird on January 25, 2017, 04:31:29 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/24/politics/donald-trump-immigration-refugees/index.html

We're less than a week in, and between this, the EPA gagging, the immigration order, and all the other shit, it's as bad as our worst fears. It's like we got taken over by a cartoon super-villain.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2017, 04:38:16 AM
I keep hearing how brilliant Trump is and yadda yadda but it's so obvious he's laughably stupid.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2017, 11:55:40 PM
Trump signed an order to build the wall today.  http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/donald-trump-build-wall-immigration-executive-orders/index.html

Of course, he has no money to build it.  So contacting Congressional leaders is even more important now.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2017, 11:57:43 PM
Whatever happened to "make Mexico pay for it"? :scratch:

Not that that's even remotely plausible, but it was Smallhand's original plan...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on January 26, 2017, 12:46:02 AM
I suspect that the Trumpster will need to have the billions of construction dollars approved by congress or other financial  entity.  Let's see how that works out.

The whole idea is an absurdity for several  real world reasons. First we would need a building contractor who could finance a significant stretch of wall before the GAO could get around to paying them for whatever progress had been made. Who the hell could manage that? General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, General Electric???  Maybe Goldman Sachs could get involved with some angels to finance the deal.   We are not talking chump change here.

A single contractor would need to coordinate the logistic and erection schedule and construction personnel for such a project.  No doubt a trade union could and would get involved to sweeten the pot and complicate the process.  Imagine the material delivery schedules and the possibilities, nay probabilities, of all those inevitable snafus.

The project might use small time fence builders who might have the capacity to do maybe a mile or so of wall. That means that we would contract with nearly two thousand individual businesses and that would make a royal Mongolian Clusterfuck. Imagine the coordination fun between so many different small contractors.
 Then, of course, there is the problem of getting title to the strip of land that is currently owned by ranchers or other land holders. Well there is the eminent domain process. Hmmmph! That will take some time and some furious court fights over agreed value. It ain't just the cost of the wall, it is a lot more complicated and expensive than that. The wall is a show biz bullshit exhibition that can never actually happen and the people who think that it  is feasible, practical, effective, or paid for by Mexico, have their head in a place where the sun does not shine. That is not the worst of it....The goddam wall would not keep the" rapists and criminal"l Mexican, and Guatemalan desperados out of our hallowed ground. 

A damn sight less expensive and far more effective method of controlling the border would be to  reinforce the border patrol effort. It would also help if we did not shackle the border patrol agents or commit them to prison as has been done in the not too distant past.  I allude to the long ago case of  the two agents who landed in prison for doing their job and protecting themselves from a  potentially dangerous border crosser. Anyone care to dredge that case up?

 Trump is a shameless snake oil salesman who is devious enough to deceive some otherwise rational citizens.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 26, 2017, 12:56:59 AM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on January 26, 2017, 06:03:54 AM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.

Isn't there already a fence?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 26, 2017, 06:16:56 AM
Seems there is a Mexican company called Cemex with cement making plants near the birder on both sides.

Their shares are reported to have gone up by 200%.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 26, 2017, 12:03:06 PM
The wall's such a stupid idea.
Just chip all true Americans.
Scanners everywhere always
The wrong can be identified
YYs it not been done already?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2017, 12:28:13 PM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.

Isn't there already a fence?

In some places, but actually a very small portion of the full length of the river is fenced.  Trump has promised an impenetrable wall along the full length. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 26, 2017, 12:39:21 PM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.

Isn't there already a fence?

In some places, but actually a very small portion of the full length of the river is fenced.  Trump has promised an impenetrable wall along the full length.

"Impenetrable" is very dificult and very, very expensive.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2017, 05:23:19 PM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.

Isn't there already a fence?

In some places, but actually a very small portion of the full length of the river is fenced.  Trump has promised an impenetrable wall along the full length.

"Impenetrable" is very dificult and very, very expensive.

It's actually impossible.  Trump is acting like a medieval lord in a castle.  Walls haven't been part of a well-planned defense for quite some time. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 26, 2017, 05:29:58 PM
I heard a radio interview with a member of border patrol today. He said it wouldn't be an actual wall but that "wall" was basically being used to mean "fence". Which is admittedly stupid and he was not behind that either.

Isn't there already a fence?

In some places, but actually a very small portion of the full length of the river is fenced.  Trump has promised an impenetrable wall along the full length.

"Impenetrable" is very dificult and very, very expensive.

It's actually impossible.  Trump is acting like a medieval lord in a castle.  Walls haven't been part of a well-planned defense for quite some time.

Yeah, not much resists a few pounds of dynamite in a remote place!

And, as has been said, there are other ways.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2017, 10:54:39 PM
My letter to the editor got published in the Dallas Morning News ,- biggest market yet.

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on January 27, 2017, 02:09:13 AM
I like the dynamite way Gloucester. There is also Plastique, composition C, and/or fertilizer and diesel fuel based  persuasion.  If we piss off the Mexicans enough they can lob bombs or stink projectiles over the wall or through the wall as the case may be. .

 In fact, according to todays news, the Mexican main political powers are thoroughly annoyed with the bully behavior of our new Emporer.  They have said as much emphatically.  It occurred to me that the Emporer may now tell Canada that they must pay for at least half of the southern border wall. Then we will have the Canadians laughing at us too.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Firebird on January 27, 2017, 02:36:09 AM
My letter to the editor got published in the Dallas Morning News ,- biggest market yet.

Link?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 27, 2017, 02:57:08 AM
My letter to the editor got published in the Dallas Morning News ,- biggest market yet.

Link?

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor

Look to the right for the letters.  By the way, the photo in the background is Santa Elena Canyon in Big Bend National Park.  This link will probably be good for only today.

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Recusant on January 27, 2017, 03:18:22 AM
Hmm, I used the link, but I had to click on another to bring up the letter (though yours was good, and that image is impressive). Well done! Concise and makes excellent points.

Maybe this link will work for a bit longer: "Opposing the wall, market competition, school ratings, DISD savings, fact checking, judging Trump" | The Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/2017/01/25/opposing-wall-market-competition-school-ratings-disd-savings-fact-checking-judging-trump)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 27, 2017, 03:39:33 AM
Hmm, I used the link, but I had to click on another to bring up the letter (though yours was good, and that image is impressive). Well done! Concise and makes excellent points.

Maybe this link will work for a bit longer: "Opposing the wall, market competition, school ratings, DISD savings, fact checking, judging Trump" | The Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/2017/01/25/opposing-wall-market-competition-school-ratings-disd-savings-fact-checking-judging-trump)

It had to be concise - 200 word limit!
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dredge on January 27, 2017, 06:47:04 AM
There is a wise old saying: "Good fences make good neighbours".   So imagine how much better than a fence a huge wall would be!  The Trumpster's Great Wall of Texas - the next Wonder of the World.  It will pay for itself by attracting millions of tourists. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Asmodean on January 27, 2017, 10:36:57 AM
...More like millions of fines for tagging and other vandalism, but coin is coin.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dredge on January 28, 2017, 04:43:23 AM
Will a wall work?  Don't they have ladders and ropes in Mexico?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Asmodean on January 28, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 28, 2017, 08:54:48 AM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

Seems lots of drugs are simply posted over the border.

Prog on BBC World Service interviewed an Arizona cow farmer who said that, in places, the current effective guarded line is actually 20 miles north of the border line. Presumamby this could be because of access or logistic problems.That's a whole lot of territory, the rancher asked if America was going to cede it to Mexico.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 28, 2017, 01:03:41 PM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

The only thing this wall can be effective at is sending a message -- no illegal immigrants get to enter the US via Mexico! Because effective at keeping those people out it won't be. It's probably going to be the most expensive message ever in history.   
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2017, 02:50:31 PM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

The only thing this wall can be effective at is sending a message -- no illegal immigrants get to enter the US via Mexico! Because effective at keeping those people out it won't be. It's probably going to be the most expensive message ever in history.

Well, so far we only have some fencing from a few years ago in Texas.  So far, nothing of Trump's Great Wall.  There are many of us here who will resist it until the end. Legally, of course.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 28, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2017, 05:56:06 PM
I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?

They haven't voted to fund yet.  Speaker Ryan of the House and Majority Leader McConnell of the Senate have just said they will forge ahead with the plan.  No vote has been take yet.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mcconnell-ryan-congress-pay-trumps-12b-border-wall/story?id=45063195

I know that at least one GOP Representative in Texas is against building it in certain areas.  They can fund, but I haven't lost the fight until it is actually being built in Texas. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on January 28, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?

They haven't voted to fund yet.  Speaker Ryan of the House and Majority Leader McConnell of the Senate have just said they will forge ahead with the plan.  No vote has been take yet.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mcconnell-ryan-congress-pay-trumps-12b-border-wall/story?id=45063195

I know that at least one GOP Representative in Texas is against building it in certain areas.  They can fund, but I haven't lost the fight until it is actually being built in Texas.

Ah, re-reading I recognise my mistake. I knew today was the day Trump would be seeking the funds, did think it was a bit quick . . .

So, a little common sense may still prevail?  I got the k,pression ftom the prog on BBC that it is not thought well of in the border states. But that is only hoping the Beeb did not go for selective evidence.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2017, 06:17:01 PM
There is a lot of opposition the closer to the border you get.  People who live there realize what a ridiculous disaster it would be.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Firebird on January 29, 2017, 03:35:45 AM
The hypocrisy with the GOP is just stunning. They bitch, moan, and scream about the deficit and too much spending and rail against $500 million to fix Flint's water supply or less than that to help 9/11 responders, but the $15 billion wall is suddenly OK because it's their side proposing it. How do they not get called out on this shit?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Recusant on January 29, 2017, 04:20:45 AM
$15 billion is what Republicans are saying it will cost. That's a lie. The materials alone are estimated to come to $15 billion (http://fortune.com/2017/01/25/donald-trump-mexico-wall-cost/). With labor and land acquisition, the estimate comes to $25 billion. Given the fact that building projects of appreciable size tend to cost overruns, if the thing actually gets built it's likely to cost even more than that.

As for how Republicans get away with their hypocrisy, their loud yapping about "spending" has convinced a sizable percentage of the US public that they're actually interested in it. Their record belies that, but people in general find sound bites very persuasive as opposed to taking the time to learn the facts.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 29, 2017, 03:21:30 PM
$15 billion is what Republicans are saying it will cost. That's a lie. The materials alone are estimated to come to $15 billion (http://fortune.com/2017/01/25/donald-trump-mexico-wall-cost/). With labor and land acquisition, the estimate comes to $25 billion. Given the fact that building projects of appreciable size tend to cost overruns, if the thing actually gets built it's likely to cost even more than that.

As for how Republicans get away with their hypocrisy, their loud yapping about "spending" has convinced a sizable percentage of the US public that they're actually interested in it. Their record belies that, but people in general find sound bites very persuasive as opposed to taking the time to learn the facts.

I don't think they have truly considered the topography of the border along the Rio Grande in Texas: canyons, mountains, adjoining tributaries & one major river junction, lakes, and cities, not to mention the very winding course of the river itself.  $25 billion won't cover it at all.  Spend that on border patrol jobs and useful infrastructure projects, but not a useless wall.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 30, 2017, 12:44:02 AM
Trump's Wall Could Cause Serious Environmental Damage (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trumps-wall-could-cause-serious-environmental-damage/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_ENGYSUS_NEWS)

Not that he seems to care...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 01, 2017, 09:49:02 AM
I believe all countries should work together in a spirit of goodwill to impose a uniform tax rate on corporations, to prevent them moving to nasty low tax countries, forcing good countries to lower rates in an attempt to compete.  Otherwise government schools can't afford proper teachers, they have to resort to clown school dropouts and crack whores (who we all should feel sympathy for.)

I also believe in world peace, and not just this world either it should be wished for all worlds.

Oh sorry, I pasted my pre Orange Ascension Miss Universe speech by mistake, here's my new one:

Every time I look at a map and I look at those countries down below, I just feel like there's a hoard of rapists looking up my skirt, but the wall has to be so high and so long, unless....
I think all those lower people should be moved lower still, across the isthmus into South America.
Then we reclaim our canal and build our wall there, we'll have truly great wall but not unmanageably long  and a moat too. :) 
I love moats.  Oh can't you just see it, glorious, we'd all be safe.

But that map, there's still another problem.
Those haughty Canadians looking down on us from their lofty latitude.
Canada should be ours, not coming between us and the sainted Sarah.
We can't drive them north, but we'll have avocados that need picking so I propose a relocation, it's what the great Putin or the mighty Stalin would do.

Oh yes I believe in world peace but it's so hard to impose, how many bombs have we wasted in the attempt? and they're never as grateful as they should be.  No, we need to make our own country great and perhaps our example will inspire the world to be more like us, it's my dream.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 01, 2017, 12:56:49 PM
Trump's Wall Could Cause Serious Environmental Damage (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trumps-wall-could-cause-serious-environmental-damage/?WT.mc_id=SA_FB_ENGYSUS_NEWS)

Not that he seems to care...

Thanks for that article.  I've posted it on my Facebook page.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: MadBomr101 on February 01, 2017, 08:21:06 PM
Here's the problem; you're making reasoned, rational arguments in the hope of convincing a bunch of GOP lunatics that what they're planning to do isn't right. This strategy can only work if you're appealing to reasonable, rational people who actually care about what's right.

This idiotic wall is just one boondoggle on a lengthy list of atrocities to come. They don't care if what they're doing is right or not so long as it serves their purpose in the short term. The wall was a big selling point to Trump's non-thinking voter base so it makes him look decisive and potent to the people who he wants to vote him into a second term in four years. Same thing with the Muslim ban, and repealing the ACA, and everything else he's going to do. He puts no thought into any decision he makes, screw the consequences.

I wish you all the best with this, Bruce, and I admire the passion that motivates you. Sadly, someone needs to play the devil's advocate and point out that the people currently in power don't give a fuck about the ethics or aftermath of anything they do so long as they benefit either politically or financially in some way. Unfortunately, these assholes see a political benifit in building this stupid wall.

Let me end this on a hopeful note though. There may still come a series of unanticipated events that could forcibly hinder or block them on this and/or other calamities they have in store for us so I hold out hope for whatever those events may be.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on February 01, 2017, 08:29:56 PM

[...]

Unfortunately, these assholes see a political benifit in building this stupid wall.

[...]


They don't see the potential hole if it causes a severe dent in the nation's economy. By then they will have mixed the "plaster" from lots of social projects to stuff that hole, hide it from the tax payers, the voters.

Who worries about the needy?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on February 05, 2017, 02:51:19 AM
If I were not as advanced in age, I'd be tempted to undertake another of my several Entrepeneural ventures.  A fleet of moderate sized boats could command some fairly good prices for transporting "Mexican invaders" around the stupid wall. There are two coast lines that would allow the "invaders' to simply go around the ends of the freakin' walls. Both U S coast lines are long enough to thwart the best efforts of the border patrol. The east and west coast of the US are both a lot longer than the southern border with Mexico.  HA! We'd need to fence in the whole damned nation wouldn't we?

I am only half joking about this.  Some of the commercial fisherman and shrimpers from Galveston, Corpus Christie, Port Arthur, Brownsville and other coastal areas  could make a lot more money smuggling than fishing. So could the commercial fisherman along the San Diego, and other California coastal regions. And that is just the American side. Plenty of enterprising Mexican boat people could make a good living with the smuggling trade.  The US Coast Guard would have to bolster their equipment and personnel capabilities even to make a dent in the problem. That would cost a lot of money Donald... Let me guess ,ever the profit maker, you could have Trump fleets of small boats that could cash in on the deal. The Trump boats would be more opulent and reserved for the more affluent illegals and therefore command better prices.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on February 12, 2017, 11:32:58 PM
Scientific American has an interesting article about walls, their history and social implications. 
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-anthropological-truth-about-walls/
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on February 13, 2017, 08:38:55 AM
Listening to more businessmen and farmers in Yuma discussing their concerns about the potential. loss of manufactured goods customers and field workers. They are already suffering a Mexican "backlash" boycotting their shops.

As has been said before, repatriating work to America might actually defeat the idea of generating more jobs because the goods will be more expensive and not sell so well. Companies might close and jobs never appear or be lost.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on March 14, 2017, 09:27:51 AM
A British building organisation commissioned an estimate for the wall.

They reckon the bill would be closer to $30bn than $12bn and to be built over 5 years would need 40 000 workers. That''s if it comes in on time and on cost.

Will the work be continuously sustained through all westher conditions, will adequate materials be constantly available, will there be a continuous turnover of the right kind of workers . . .

Will the sales of explosives peak in Mexico?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on March 14, 2017, 11:54:02 PM

Will the sales of explosives peak in Mexico?

The dipshit prez has not thought about that prospect has he? 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on March 15, 2017, 01:10:51 AM

Will the sales of explosives peak in Mexico?

The dipshit prez has not thought about that prospect has he?

Mexico will have the best bombs...soon...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 29, 2017, 01:11:28 AM
Here is my documentary on the wall.  It's not professional, and has mistakes and flaws, but I think it gets the point across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-TVBl8axyMdE8tVFZ5cURLcmM/view

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on March 29, 2017, 04:07:23 AM
Good job!  Too bad the scenery is as seriously distracting as it is -- it almost serves a double purpose of encouraging tourism.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on March 29, 2017, 01:03:41 PM
Here is my documentary on the wall.  It's not professional, and has mistakes and flaws, but I think it gets the point across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-TVBl8axyMdE8tVFZ5cURLcmM/view
I'll watch this at home have no sound at work.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tom62 on March 29, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Here is my documentary on the wall.  It's not professional, and has mistakes and flaws, but I think it gets the point across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-TVBl8axyMdE8tVFZ5cURLcmM/view

Well done, Bruce! It was very interesting.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on March 29, 2017, 08:33:43 PM
Here is my documentary on the wall.  It's not professional, and has mistakes and flaws, but I think it gets the point across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-TVBl8axyMdE8tVFZ5cURLcmM/view
I'll watch this at home have no sound at work.
Interesting. What an astonishing waste of money.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on March 29, 2017, 09:13:11 PM
Good one, Bruce. You addressed the economics, the environmentals, the emotions, what did you miss?

Oh, yeah, the politics and the egos of Trump and his hangers on. Does Trump have all the trump cards or does he have to get this through Congress? Are the Republicans really stupid enough to sign it off?

PS: I should have mentioned that I recognised that your motives were produce a fairly rational argument, introducing politics and personalities would likely damage your purpose.
 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 29, 2017, 10:16:54 PM
Thanks for the comments.  The goal is to try to convince - someone, anyone.  If I get snarky, that would defeat the purpose.  But believe me, I want to get snarky.  If they actually build it, my tone will be substantially different.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on March 29, 2017, 10:30:11 PM
Thanks for the comments.  The goal is to try to convince - someone, anyone.  If I get snarky, that would defeat the purpose.  But believe me, I want to get snarky.  If they actually build it, my tone will be substantially different.
I applaud your self control!

 :boaterhat:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on March 30, 2017, 06:34:17 AM
 I salute you for that effort Bruce.  You have done an exceptional job of reinforcing the stated purpose. You are one of the incredibly valuable few who have put their money where their mouth is. 

Our President has his head up his ass as do a good many of his supporters who have no idea what the real Texas border looks like.  I go along with Books who commented that your vid is almost a tourist attraction piece. In either case, well done my friend.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Tank on March 30, 2017, 07:38:36 AM
Thanks for the comments.  The goal is to try to convince - someone, anyone.  If I get snarky, that would defeat the purpose.  But believe me, I want to get snarky.  If they actually build it, my tone will be substantially different.
You can do more than one. You can have a polite one and a snarky one under a pseudonym, possibly 'Ecurb Noselrub' :grin:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 30, 2017, 01:26:54 PM
Excellent job Bruce, I watched this last night. I really admire the work you've put into this, and hope this will help and assist you in reaching a wider audience along with more supporters.

My son overheard the video last night and came over to watch with me and was impressed.

The idea of a wall is to many I think just that, an idea without any practical or rational thought to the scope of what such a wall would entail...it appeals to the fear-mongering that is so prevalent on the right, have to protect the border, need more guns, etc...


Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2017, 01:40:46 PM
I have some spare capital looking for a place to be invested.

So, do I buy shares in Cemex and suppliers of explosives, bolt cutters, battery operated angle grinders, ladders, spring operated line firing systems, anything that will launch drugs packages over a 20ft wall (truck mounted trebuchets?) . . . in Mexico?

:tongue firmly in cheek icon:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on March 31, 2017, 02:23:55 AM
A newspaper article today described the anger that some of our Mexican neighbors have wrought.  Some of the prospective construction contractors have opted not to bid on the project. They are aware that more than a few of their employees will quit. They will quit for several reasons, not the least of which the physical danger caused by angry and prideful Mexicans who might just kill the wall workers, which is a real and present factor.

Homeland Security Agency has asked contractors to submit proposals for a 30 foot high wall that is difficult to climb or cut through. Bids were due by last Wednesday but the deadline was extended to April 4.  Interior secretary Ryan Zinke is quietly resistant to the whole madcap notion of wall building. He has to be a bit cozy about his opposition because his job is on the line.

The Sierra club and wildlife organizations will soon weigh in. Hundreds of wildlife species live within 30 miles of the border area and a fence or wall would do them great harm.  The Mexican wolf and the already threatened jaguars are among the more conspicuous examples.

The wall concept has so many negative implications, including the incredible cost, the aroused opposition by the American landowners whose land borders the Rio Grande,  the environmentalist and naturist opposition,  and the plain old Americans with a modicum of common sense, that this project is doomed. Our Emperor has no clothes....but he does have shit for brains.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on March 31, 2017, 04:01:09 PM
[...]the physical danger caused by angry and prideful Mexicans who might just kill the wall workers, which is a real and present factor.
What?

I don't think that's a real thing and I couldn't find anything on it that wasn't from shitty alt-right or conservative news sources.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on March 31, 2017, 06:47:38 PM
[...]the physical danger caused by angry and prideful Mexicans who might just kill the wall workers, which is a real and present factor.
What?

I don't think that's a real thing and I couldn't find anything on it that wasn't from shitty alt-right or conservative news sources.

What!?
So now we are rapists, drug dealers, and wall worker murderers!?  Wow!
:picard facepalm:
Jesus Christ!!!

(I didn't think I would have to use the video I posted last night...so early in the morning.) ::)

Davin, help me...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/10/testing-me.gif)
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope!


 :levitate:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on March 31, 2017, 07:10:26 PM
[...]the physical danger caused by angry and prideful Mexicans who might just kill the wall workers, which is a real and present factor.
What?

I don't think that's a real thing and I couldn't find anything on it that wasn't from shitty alt-right or conservative news sources.

What!?
So now we are rapists, drug dealers, and wall worker murderers!?  Wow!
:picard facepalm:
Jesus Christ!!!

(I didn't think I would have to use the video I posted last night...so early in the morning.) ::)

Davin, help me...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/10/testing-me.gif)
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope!


 :levitate:

(http://i.imgur.com/pHIAfw5.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on March 31, 2017, 08:12:45 PM
[...]the physical danger caused by angry and prideful Mexicans who might just kill the wall workers, which is a real and present factor.
What?

I don't think that's a real thing and I couldn't find anything on it that wasn't from shitty alt-right or conservative news sources.

What!?
So now we are rapists, drug dealers, and wall worker murderers!?  Wow!
:picard facepalm:
Jesus Christ!!!

(I didn't think I would have to use the video I posted last night...so early in the morning.) ::)

Davin, help me...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/10/testing-me.gif)
Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope!


 :levitate:

(http://i.imgur.com/pHIAfw5.jpg)

 :lol:
You're funny, Gloucester.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on April 01, 2017, 12:18:09 AM
Dammit Mags and Davin I am only reporting on what I read in the newspaper....no the newspaper was not the National Enquirer.

That the Mexican citizens might be offended by a dumb ass wall is not hard to understand.  Mexicans are people the same as us. They have some degree of pride and dignity, they have a justifiable degree of anger that they would be excluded from the ranks of  law abiding and civilized humans. Goddammit they are not all drug smugglers or rapists. in fact very few of them are.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on April 01, 2017, 03:37:01 AM
Dammit Mags and Davin I am only reporting on what I read in the newspaper....no the newspaper was not the National Enquirer.

That the Mexican citizens might be offended by a dumb ass wall is not hard to understand.  Mexicans are people the same as us. They have some degree of pride and dignity, they have a justifiable degree of anger that they would be excluded from the ranks of  law abiding and civilized humans. Goddammit they are not all drug smugglers or rapists. in fact very few of them are.

It's OK, Icarus, I understand.
I would just like to give this topic, a "face."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/jan/21/migrants-minutemen-dead-bodies-mexico-arizona-usa-border-video
 (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/jan/21/migrants-minutemen-dead-bodies-mexico-arizona-usa-border-video)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on April 03, 2017, 05:04:06 PM
Dammit Mags and Davin I am only reporting on what I read in the newspaper....no the newspaper was not the National Enquirer.

That the Mexican citizens might be offended by a dumb ass wall is not hard to understand.  Mexicans are people the same as us. They have some degree of pride and dignity, they have a justifiable degree of anger that they would be excluded from the ranks of  law abiding and civilized humans. Goddammit they are not all drug smugglers or rapists. in fact very few of them are.
I understand people might get offended, and that people have pride and dignity, but I think that is pretty big leap to take that all the way to murder. Then even more of a leap to say that it is a real danger as opposed to someone just taking a guess.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on April 03, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
Dammit Mags and Davin I am only reporting on what I read in the newspaper....no the newspaper was not the National Enquirer.

That the Mexican citizens might be offended by a dumb ass wall is not hard to understand.  Mexicans are people the same as us. They have some degree of pride and dignity, they have a justifiable degree of anger that they would be excluded from the ranks of  law abiding and civilized humans. Goddammit they are not all drug smugglers or rapists. in fact very few of them are.
I understand people might get offended, and that people have pride and dignity, but I think that is pretty big leap to take that all the way to murder. Then even more of a leap to say that it is a real danger as opposed to someone just taking a guess.
I agree with you, Davin.
I think the Minutemen are a 'real danger', but no one wants to talk about that...
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/investigating-deaths-undocumented-immigrants-border (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/investigating-deaths-undocumented-immigrants-border)
Quote
The unsolved murders this April of two undocumented immigrants near Eloy, Ariz., coupled with four remarkably similar 2007 killings in the same area, have again raised the specter of a possible campaign by U.S. vigilantes to murder Latino border crossers. One recently retired police detective warns of “a lot of angry, militant white men on the border sitting like hunters waiting for these people to come across.”

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on April 04, 2017, 09:04:02 AM
IIRC the guys in that Guardian vudeo ssis they were not seeking a paramilitary confrontstion.

To me they looked somewhat more than just "defensive", with that cam and their weapons and behaviour. OK, csm is as defensive as aggressive, guns can be for self defence - just in case some nasty people pop over the border . . .

Yeah, I'm really convinced . . .
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on April 04, 2017, 02:43:56 PM
And then we have false reports like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/21/texas-hunters-claimed-they-were-shot-by-illegal-aliens-authorities-say-they-shot-each-other/

They shot each other, and then tried to blame it on illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on April 04, 2017, 03:47:21 PM
And then we have false reports like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/21/texas-hunters-claimed-they-were-shot-by-illegal-aliens-authorities-say-they-shot-each-other/

They shot each other, and then tried to blame it on illegal immigrants.

And so the heady mix of anti-social media with hot-headed people who have access to guns shows us what a great place humans can make this world.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on April 04, 2017, 09:10:29 PM
IIRC the guys in that Guardian vudeo ssis they were not seeking a paramilitary confrontstion.

To me they looked somewhat more than just "defensive", with that cam and their weapons and behaviour. OK, csm is as defensive as aggressive, guns can be for self defence - just in case some nasty people pop over the border . . .

Yeah, I'm really convinced . . .

Yeah, I'm really convinced, as well. They're only there to "observe" and "report."
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on April 04, 2017, 09:12:30 PM
And then we have false reports like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/21/texas-hunters-claimed-they-were-shot-by-illegal-aliens-authorities-say-they-shot-each-other/

They shot each other, and then tried to blame it on illegal immigrants.
:picard facepalm:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on April 04, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
And then we have false reports like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/21/texas-hunters-claimed-they-were-shot-by-illegal-aliens-authorities-say-they-shot-each-other/

They shot each other, and then tried to blame it on illegal immigrants.
:picard facepalm:

Yeah, with any justice that's:

Hospital bill               $10k
Wasting police time $10k
Wasting BP time       $10k
Fines                           $10k

Prison                          10 years

Each...
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 05, 2017, 12:56:28 AM
I thought these two reports by CNN were both interesting and informative.

Building Trump's wall: For Texans, it's complicated (http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/border-series-texas/index.html)

Especially this one, and the proposed theft of private land.
President Trump vs. American landowners on the border (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/03/us/eminent-domain-border-private-land-cases/index.html)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 05, 2017, 01:49:44 AM
And then we have false reports like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/21/texas-hunters-claimed-they-were-shot-by-illegal-aliens-authorities-say-they-shot-each-other/

They shot each other, and then tried to blame it on illegal immigrants.
:picard facepalm:

Yeah, with any justice that's:

Hospital bill               $10k
Wasting police time $10k
Wasting BP time       $10k
Fines                           $10k

Prison                          10 years

Each...

This is America -- I think the hospital bill will be higher than that.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on April 05, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Especially this one, and the proposed theft of private land.
President Trump vs. American landowners on the border (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/03/us/eminent-domain-border-private-land-cases/index.html)
This is one of those things that sound good at first hearing, and as long as you don't think about it, it will still sound fine.

Many think Trump is a good business man, and they think he will make great deals. But this fails if you only think a little deeper.

For the buyer, a great deal is a low price.

For the seller, a great deal is a high price.

They are mutually exclusive. But Trump doesn't care about the person who is not him, so most of his deals tend to be great for him and bad for the other party. One guy, a small piano seller, gave Trump a great deal by only getting paid 20% of the agreed upon amount. Great deal for Trump, but a shitty deal for that guy.

I guess I'm saying that this land theft looks like Trumps MO.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on April 05, 2017, 06:13:04 PM
Especially this one, and the proposed theft of private land.
President Trump vs. American landowners on the border (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/03/us/eminent-domain-border-private-land-cases/index.html)
This is one of those things that sound good at first hearing, and as long as you don't think about it, it will still sound fine.

Many think Trump is a good business man, and they think he will make great deals. But this fails if you only think a little deeper.

For the buyer, a great deal is a low price.

For the seller, a great deal is a high price.

They are mutually exclusive. But Trump doesn't care about the person who is not him, so most of his deals tend to be great for him and bad for the other party. One guy, a small piano seller, gave Trump a great deal by only getting paid 20% of the agreed upon amount. Great deal for Trump, but a shitty deal for that guy.

I guess I'm saying that this land theft looks like Trumps MO.

I watched that video last night. I kept shaking my head in disbelief. The story about the fire is really sad. I can understand why they feel angry about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on April 20, 2017, 12:17:13 AM
I'm on YouTube now with a shorter version:


https://youtu.be/vu3gnhNnRAM

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 22, 2017, 03:30:26 AM
Good video, I gave it a 'Like' :D
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Papasito Bruno on April 22, 2017, 04:09:35 AM
Good video, I gave it a 'Like' :D

Ditto 8)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on April 22, 2017, 04:57:10 AM
Great video, I agree!!!
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on April 22, 2017, 09:00:59 AM
Yes.

Just needs to go viral now . . .
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on April 22, 2017, 06:53:58 PM
Thanks.  I'm sending it to everyone I can.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on April 25, 2017, 05:50:37 PM
Looks like 45 is taking a step back from the wall - for the moment at least. But, as time goes on and he digs even deeper holes, chances are it will get harder to fund, not easier.

Time is on your side I think.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on April 25, 2017, 07:09:12 PM
Looks like 45 is taking a step back from the wall - for the moment at least. But, as time goes on and he digs even deeper holes, chances are it will get harder to fund, not easier.

Time is on your side I think.

It would take money that's not there. But maybe one day I can smugly and sarcastically ask the trumpets "where is your wall now!?"
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on April 25, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
Thanks.  I'm sending it to everyone I can.

I'm flogging it around FB too, and already have one guy promising to help out with that.  He really liked your video.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on April 26, 2017, 05:22:42 PM
Thanks.  I'm sending it to everyone I can.

I'm flogging it around FB too, and already have one guy promising to help out with that.  He really liked your video.

Thanks. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on May 19, 2017, 09:08:04 PM
Ecurb Noselrub, for you.  :grin:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2017, 09:31:37 PM
^  :rofl:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 19, 2017, 10:23:59 PM
^  :rofl:
:puppysnicker:
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Magdalena on May 19, 2017, 10:36:50 PM
^  :rofl:
:puppysnicker:

That is funny, isn't it?  ;D
My favorite is:
"A heck of a," is one-half an ass load."
That's very accurate.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on May 20, 2017, 08:46:39 AM
^  :rofl:
:puppysnicker:

That is funny, isn't it?  ;D
My favorite is:
"A heck of a," is one-half an ass load."
That's very accurate.

Thinking about it, I had to admit -- what else could it be?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on June 25, 2017, 07:30:05 PM
Has this one been posted?  If so play it again, it is a humorous take on the "wall". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8dCYocuyI
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on June 25, 2017, 08:11:14 PM
Has this one been posted?  If so play it again, it is a humorous take on the "wall". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8dCYocuyI

New one on me.

And, as ever, btilliant!
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Recusant on July 18, 2017, 11:26:47 PM
Here we go. The beginning of the 'beautiful, beautiful' wall will be done by partially destroying a wildlife refuge. This is an excellent example of what Trump's gang of greedy, ignorant, malevolent clowns have in store for the US.

"Trump Administration Preparing Texas Wildlife Refuge for First Border Wall Segment" | Texas Observer (https://www.texasobserver.org/trump-border-wall-texas-wildlife-refuge-breaking/)

Quote
For at least six months, private contractors and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials have been quietly preparing to build the first piece of President Trump’s border wall through the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge in South Texas. The federally owned 2,088-acre refuge, often called the “crown jewel of the national wildlife refuge system,” could see construction begin as early as January 2018, according to a federal official who has been involved in the planning but asked to remain anonymous.

“This should be public information,” the official told the Observer. “There shouldn’t be government officials meeting in secret just so they don’t have to deal with the backlash. The public has the right to know about these plans.”

[. . .]

The official said that the Department of Homeland Security picked the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge as the first site for a border wall segment because it’s owned by the federal government, avoiding legal entanglements with private landowners. At least 95 percent of the Texas border is privately owned. As the Observer’s June cover story, “Over the Wall (https://www.texasobserver.org/over-the-wall/),” detailed, at least one-third of the 320 condemnation suits filed against landowners in 2007 are still pending.

Established in 1943, the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge is one of the top birding destinations in North America. Home to at least 400 bird species and 450 species of plants, it also hosts both the rare Sabal palm and the endangered ocelot. The refuge is located on the Texas-Mexico border about 10 miles southeast of McAllen in the Rio Grande Valley.

If the levee wall is constructed, it will essentially destroy the refuge, the official said. The proposed plans call for building a road south of the wall and clearing refuge land on either side of the wall for surveillance, cameras and light towers.

[Continues . . . (https://www.texasobserver.org/trump-border-wall-texas-wildlife-refuge-breaking/)]

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on July 18, 2017, 11:50:31 PM
I had a conversation with my Dad about Trump Jr deal with the Russians. He, with whatever source he got it from, says that everyone looks to foriegn governmentscto get dirt on other candidates. Whether that be true or not, why is it that Hillary can deal with Russians and be labeled a criminal, but when the (very possible) whole Trump family does it, he gets defended by the same people who lashed out at Hillary? Do they not care for their own hypocrisy or are they just psychopaths?

Disclaimer: I don't know if what my Dad says is true. He likely got that information from the radio (who don't source their information much, if at all.)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on July 19, 2017, 03:41:28 PM
I had a conversation with my Dad about Trump Jr deal with the Russians. He, with whatever source he got it from, says that everyone looks to foriegn governmentscto get dirt on other candidates. Whether that be true or not, why is it that Hillary can deal with Russians and be labeled a criminal, but when the (very possible) whole Trump family does it, he gets defended by the same people who lashed out at Hillary? Do they not care for their own hypocrisy or are they just psychopaths?

Disclaimer: I don't know if what my Dad says is true. He likely got that information from the radio (who don't source their information much, if at all.)
They are relying on the idiotic, "both sides do it, so it's OK for my side to do it, even when it's not OK for the other side to do it."

It's not true, both sides do not do it. Hillary got money from some Russians for services rendered, but she released that information. It wasn't secret, she released her tax returns like every presidential candidate has done for the last several decades until Trump. Hillary didn't lie about her getting money from Russia, but Trump did. See the difference?

Trump denied any Russian involvement for months. Then it was proven that there was.
Trump Jr. said on Fox News that he released his emails, and that he met with the Russian lawyer alone with a translator of course, and it was about orphans and that was it.
Then it turns out that Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner also attended the meeting, but that was it.
Then it turns out that the guy who set up the meeting attended, but that was it.
Then it turns out that Rinat Akhmetshin (A lobbyist who is against Russian sanctions), also attended the meeting, but that is it.
Then it turns out that Ike Kaveladze (a man who had laundered money), also attended the meeting. Is that it this time?

Were all those people, some of whom are worth several hundred million dollars, there just to talk about orphans for 30-40 minutes? Would they have stuck around during a time that Trump Jr. said was a hectic and busy time if the meeting had nothing to do with what Trump Jr. was promised? I find that hard to believe, and if you follow the pattern of lies, I'm sure there is more to the meeting.

Meanwhile (why are we still talking about Hillary?), every time Hillary was investigated, and she was investigated a lot, she came out with nothing proven to be bad on her part. That includes many investigations that were run by the Republican party, not just the independent and bipartisan investigations. Hillary was shown to be on the level time and time again... not so much for Trump.

No, both parties are not the same. Saying so is like saying that because traces of lead can be found in all water, that drinking tap water from Flynnt, MI is just fine.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on July 19, 2017, 06:26:55 PM
I had a conversation with my Dad about Trump Jr deal with the Russians. He, with whatever source he got it from, says that everyone looks to foriegn governmentscto get dirt on other candidates. Whether that be true or not, why is it that Hillary can deal with Russians and be labeled a criminal, but when the (very possible) whole Trump family does it, he gets defended by the same people who lashed out at Hillary? Do they not care for their own hypocrisy or are they just psychopaths?

Disclaimer: I don't know if what my Dad says is true. He likely got that information from the radio (who don't source their information much, if at all.)
They are relying on the idiotic, "both sides do it, so it's OK for my side to do it, even when it's not OK for the other side to do it."

It's not true, both sides do not do it. Hillary got money from some Russians for services rendered, but she released that information. It wasn't secret, she released her tax returns like every presidential candidate has done for the last several decades until Trump. Hillary didn't lie about her getting money from Russia, but Trump did. See the difference?

Trump denied any Russian involvement for months. Then it was proven that there was.
Trump Jr. said on Fox News that he released his emails, and that he met with the Russian lawyer alone with a translator of course, and it was about orphans and that was it.
Then it turns out that Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner also attended the meeting, but that was it.
Then it turns out that the guy who set up the meeting attended, but that was it.
Then it turns out that Rinat Akhmetshin (A lobbyist who is against Russian sanctions), also attended the meeting, but that is it.
Then it turns out that Ike Kaveladze (a man who had laundered money), also attended the meeting. Is that it this time?

Were all those people, some of whom are worth several hundred million dollars, there just to talk about orphans for 30-40 minutes? Would they have stuck around during a time that Trump Jr. said was a hectic and busy time if the meeting had nothing to do with what Trump Jr. was promised? I find that hard to believe, and if you follow the pattern of lies, I'm sure there is more to the meeting.

Meanwhile (why are we still talking about Hillary?), every time Hillary was investigated, and she was investigated a lot, she came out with nothing proven to be bad on her part. That includes many investigations that were run by the Republican party, not just the independent and bipartisan investigations. Hillary was shown to be on the level time and time again... not so much for Trump.

No, both parties are not the same. Saying so is like saying that because traces of lead can be found in all water, that drinking tap water from Flynnt, MI is just fine.

That was a well laid out response. I only wish I had the patience and emotional control to do the research you did to come to a conclusion like that.

But something makes me think that maybe some of these people are psychopaths, propagandists, and flat out Russian cells on the internet spreading the whole message and trying to confuse the situation.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Davin on July 19, 2017, 06:50:37 PM
I had a conversation with my Dad about Trump Jr deal with the Russians. He, with whatever source he got it from, says that everyone looks to foriegn governmentscto get dirt on other candidates. Whether that be true or not, why is it that Hillary can deal with Russians and be labeled a criminal, but when the (very possible) whole Trump family does it, he gets defended by the same people who lashed out at Hillary? Do they not care for their own hypocrisy or are they just psychopaths?

Disclaimer: I don't know if what my Dad says is true. He likely got that information from the radio (who don't source their information much, if at all.)
They are relying on the idiotic, "both sides do it, so it's OK for my side to do it, even when it's not OK for the other side to do it."

It's not true, both sides do not do it. Hillary got money from some Russians for services rendered, but she released that information. It wasn't secret, she released her tax returns like every presidential candidate has done for the last several decades until Trump. Hillary didn't lie about her getting money from Russia, but Trump did. See the difference?

Trump denied any Russian involvement for months. Then it was proven that there was.
Trump Jr. said on Fox News that he released his emails, and that he met with the Russian lawyer alone with a translator of course, and it was about orphans and that was it.
Then it turns out that Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner also attended the meeting, but that was it.
Then it turns out that the guy who set up the meeting attended, but that was it.
Then it turns out that Rinat Akhmetshin (A lobbyist who is against Russian sanctions), also attended the meeting, but that is it.
Then it turns out that Ike Kaveladze (a man who had laundered money), also attended the meeting. Is that it this time?

Were all those people, some of whom are worth several hundred million dollars, there just to talk about orphans for 30-40 minutes? Would they have stuck around during a time that Trump Jr. said was a hectic and busy time if the meeting had nothing to do with what Trump Jr. was promised? I find that hard to believe, and if you follow the pattern of lies, I'm sure there is more to the meeting.

Meanwhile (why are we still talking about Hillary?), every time Hillary was investigated, and she was investigated a lot, she came out with nothing proven to be bad on her part. That includes many investigations that were run by the Republican party, not just the independent and bipartisan investigations. Hillary was shown to be on the level time and time again... not so much for Trump.

No, both parties are not the same. Saying so is like saying that because traces of lead can be found in all water, that drinking tap water from Flynnt, MI is just fine.

That was a well laid out response. I only wish I had the patience and emotional control to do the research you did to come to a conclusion like that.

But something makes me think that maybe some of these people are psychopaths, propagandists, and flat out Russian cells on the internet spreading the whole message and trying to confuse the situation.
Also, Al Gore (not near my favorite presidential nominee), when presented with something sneaky against Bush, decided to turn it into the FBI.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2017/07/13/what-donald-trump-jr-should-have-learned-from-the-2000-gore-campaigns-hot-potato/

Quote
So imagine Downey’s surprise when he received an envelope containing a briefing book and a videotape at his home address. He said he looked only long enough to determine that it was a book purporting to help Bush prepare for his 2000 debates and a tape supposedly of actual practice sessions. He called me and Bill Daley, the campaign chair, and while being very careful not to divulge any of the contents he might have gleaned, said that he was turning the materials over to the FBI.

Both "sides" are not the same.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on July 19, 2017, 11:38:03 PM
Yes I remember hearing that bit about Al Gore. I guess it doesn't matter if you lie, cheat, and steal, as long as you are republican. But if you are anythig else then die and go to hell right?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 05, 2017, 09:24:27 PM
Going to Mission, Texas next Saturday to march in a Sierra Club protest against the wall. 7 hour drive, but if no action is taken Trump will try to build this stupid thing.  I'll report when I return.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Icarus on August 05, 2017, 09:47:08 PM
Bruce relax a bit. He ain't gonna' build no damned wall. He knows it, we know it, and congress is not about to throw money at something as preposterous as that. For sure the Mexicans are not going to pay for it either.

Enjoy the trip to the Sierra club gathering. You will have an opportunity to meet some good people who care a lot about preserving our planet.  Building a wall would be an immediate threat to wildlife among other things.

I am also a member of the Sierra club.  I am not a fanatical tree hugger but I do care about the trees and more. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on August 05, 2017, 10:03:00 PM
Bruce relax a bit. He ain't gonna' build no damned wall. He knows it, we know it, and congress is not about to throw money at something as preposterous as that. For sure the Mexicans are not going to pay for it either.

Enjoy the trip to the Sierra club gathering. You will have an opportunity to meet some good people who care a lot about preserving our planet.  Building a wall would be an immediate threat to wildlife among other things.

I am also a member of the Sierra club.  I am not a fanatical tree hugger but I do care about the trees and more.

I wish I shared your optimism, but a billion has already been appropriated for prototypes and such, and my Senator, Cornyn, is introducing a bill that will provide funding for at least some barrier.  Pressure must be applied where possible.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on August 05, 2017, 11:14:40 PM
Talk about money ill spent...a pharaonic project to massage the orange guy's ego.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on August 06, 2017, 02:06:32 AM
Idk a billion dollars next how many hundereds of trillions to build the thing??? But yes, I still support you Bruce. Go team!
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 06, 2017, 05:06:16 AM
Going to Mission, Texas next Saturday to march in a Sierra Club protest against the wall. 7 hour drive, but if no action is taken Trump will try to build this stupid thing.  I'll report when I return.

I understand the thing is now supposed to be transparent, so people aren't hit unaware by flying bags of drugs. 
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on August 06, 2017, 05:25:33 AM
Going to Mission, Texas next Saturday to march in a Sierra Club protest against the wall. 7 hour drive, but if no action is taken Trump will try to build this stupid thing.  I'll report when I return.

I understand the thing is now supposed to be transparent, so people aren't hit unaware by flying bags of drugs.

Lol what? Do they think people are just going to throw over drugs when they "apparently have a massive cave system under the entire United States"?

Do they also expect it to last any sort of weather or any sort of explosion lol


Where did you hear this anyway?
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Sandra Craft on August 06, 2017, 07:40:44 AM
Lol what? Do they think people are just going to throw over drugs when they "apparently have a massive cave system under the entire United States"?

Do they also expect it to last any sort of weather or any sort of explosion lol


Where did you hear this anyway?

Trump, where else?  drugs will be thrown over border wall (http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-border-wall-mexico-drugs-2017-7)
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on August 06, 2017, 07:52:26 AM
And, as has been said, watch for peak explosives sales/theft in that region.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on August 06, 2017, 02:23:14 PM
And, as has been said, watch for peak explosives sales/theft in that region.

This is different than the Berlin wall because I think now people have access to and knowledge of home made explosives.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on August 06, 2017, 02:40:55 PM
And, as has been said, watch for peak explosives sales/theft in that region.

This is different than the Berlin wall because I think now people have access to and knowledge of home made explosives.

OK, just watch out for big bangs then! If not to pass drugs or people through then to attract the border guards' attention from where they are doing so. Gonna depend on the nature of the barrier though.

Billions that could save lives all for one man's distorted ego!
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on August 06, 2017, 04:07:35 PM
I don't know about explosives, what better way to signal to border patrol that you're trying to cross illegally? Might as well add in some loud, colourful fireworks if wanting to enter the US explosive style. ;D

As Gloucester said, explosives be used as a distraction. They could also be used just to destroy parts of the Wall for the sake of vandalizing and make Trump pour even more money into rebuilding it.  :devil: Maybe that's the only way to get him to regret building it once he does -- depleting public coffers to maintain such a silly thing.

Now, underground tunnels...that's a whole different matter. If I wanted to open a shady business escorting people across the wall I would invest in one of those. :smilenod: Could be a long time before anyone even notices.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on August 06, 2017, 05:05:55 PM
I don't know about explosives, what better way to signal to border patrol that you're trying to cross illegally? Might as well add in some loud, colourful fireworks if wanting to enter the US explosive style. ;D

As Gloucester said, explosives be used as a distraction. They could also be used just to destroy parts of the Wall for the sake of vandalizing and make Trump pour even more money into rebuilding it.  :devil: Maybe that's the only way to get him to regret building it once he does -- depleting public coffers to maintain such a silly thing.

Now, underground tunnels...that's a whole different matter. If I wanted to open a shady business escorting people across the wall I would invest in one of those. :smilenod: Could be a long time before anyone even notices.

I thought about the nuisance value of vandalism as well!

As for tunnels: not quite the same scenario but the Israelis might build underground barriers sgsinst tge tunnels fron the Sinai. Seem to remember them using "bunker buster" or "earthquake" bombs as well. As I say, different terrain and shorter border there. That and the Israelis, basically, don't care who they piss off or kill - providing they are not Israelis.

Betcha there are some sophisticated sticks around - solar powered, poke them in the ground and they will pick up ground vibrations from many metres away. These could be made cheaply in the thousands these days, er, by the Chinese . . . Not sure how useful satellites might be at picking up surface vibration in sandy or vegetated areas.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: xSilverPhinx on August 06, 2017, 05:51:47 PM
I thought about the nuisance value of vandalism as well!

As for tunnels: not quite the same scenario but the Israelis might build underground barriers sgsinst tge tunnels fron the Sinai. Seem to remember them using "bunker buster" or "earthquake" bombs as well. As I say, different terrain and shorter border there. That and the Israelis, basically, don't care who they piss off or kill - providing they are not Israelis.

Betcha there are some sophisticated sticks around - solar powered, poke them in the ground and they will pick up ground vibrations from many metres away. These could be made cheaply in the thousands these days, er, by the Chinese . . . Not sure how useful satellites might be at picking up surface vibration in sandy or vegetated areas.

Some form of density sonar of sorts could probably find an underground shaft, but agents would have to cross the wall onto the Mexican side and scour the land for those, or maybe send a drone. I don't think the Mexicans would be too happy about that, others invading their lands or airspace, especially since the Wall is such a hostile symbol more than anything else.

Who knows what hi-tech military satellites can do these days...it's possible that they may be able to sense something relevant with ultra secret sensors. :tellmemore:

Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on August 06, 2017, 05:54:40 PM
They say the tunnels are owned by the cartels. I don't know if that's true and I'm sure that they don't go nearly as far as they say they do.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Dave on August 06, 2017, 06:14:24 PM
They say the tunnels are owned by the cartels. I don't know if that's true and I'm sure that they don't go nearly as far as they say they do.

I would guess only the cartels have the funds to dig decent tunnels in a reasonable time scale. There are reports of the cartels using migrants and opponents as slave labour, but I cannot find a ref I really trust on this.
Title: Re: Stop the Wall!
Post by: Arturo on August 06, 2017, 11:18:18 PM
They say the tunnels are owned by the cartels. I don't know if that's true and I'm sure that they don't go nearly as far as they say they do.

I would guess only the cartels have the funds to dig decent tunnels in a reasonable time scale. There are reports of the cartels using migrants and opponents as slave labour, but I cannot find a ref I really trust on this.

I've said this before, all the wall will do is give the cartels a opportunity to make financial slaves for people who wish to cross. Giant wall in the way? Give me your child and half the money you make in America and you can cross. If you don't pay we kill your kid. But don't worry, when you die we will send him through the tunnel.