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General => Current Events => Topic started by: Pasta Chick on January 03, 2016, 05:40:21 PM

Title: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 03, 2016, 05:40:21 PM
I don't even know where to start, so I'm just titling the thread with the article title and linking out. I'll say I have an enormous fucking problem with this being referred to as a "militia" and leave it at that.

 Armed Militia, Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/03/armed-militia-bundy-brothers-take-over-federal-building-in-rural-oregon/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 03, 2016, 10:13:36 PM
Sometimes one just wonders where this will all end.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 03, 2016, 10:38:01 PM
Sometimes one just wonders where this will all end.

Maybe not this time, but it's not hard to imagine something like this leading to some widespread shedding of blood. There is definitely an element of apocalypse fantasists in the United States that is itching to use the weapons and ammunition they've been stockpiling for the past decade or so. While they've been building up their private armories, they've been telling each other that "it's just around to corner."
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 03, 2016, 11:01:04 PM
I don't even know where to start, so I'm just titling the thread with the article title and linking out. I'll say I have an enormous fucking problem with this being referred to as a "militia" and leave it at that.

 Armed Militia, Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/03/armed-militia-bundy-brothers-take-over-federal-building-in-rural-oregon/)

I think the media is using "militia" because that's what this gang of white-skinned thugs calls themselves.  If they had brown skin, the media would have no problem calling them thugs.  I just can't believe none of these idiots were jailed long ago.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 03, 2016, 11:05:45 PM
Occupying a federal building almost has to bring some kind of response.  We'll see if Obama can keep this from turning into another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 03, 2016, 11:52:05 PM
I've been hearing a lot of comparisons to Waco.

My favorite suggestion so far has been to starve them out. It's tempting to think of bringing a drone in to turn the place to toothpicks, but that will play right into the hands of these fucking lunatics and delusional paranoia of government overreach.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 04, 2016, 12:13:18 AM
I've been hearing a lot of comparisons to Waco.

My favorite suggestion so far has been to starve them out. It's tempting to think of bringing a drone in to turn the place to toothpicks, but that will play right into the hands of these fucking lunatics and delusional paranoia of government overreach.

Bring in a heavy duty sound system and play Coltrane for them 24/7.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 04, 2016, 12:17:16 AM
I've been hearing a lot of comparisons to Waco.

My favorite suggestion so far has been to starve them out. It's tempting to think of bringing a drone in to turn the place to toothpicks, but that will play right into the hands of these fucking lunatics and delusional paranoia of government overreach.

Bring in a heavy duty sound system and play Coltrane for them 24/7.

 :mb lol:
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 04, 2016, 01:09:58 AM
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/1220_10153809801338838_4290500616482250687_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=945ca143b17965612d74bda4f1cdea83&oe=5702EB4D)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Firebird on January 04, 2016, 04:22:24 AM
White right-wing militias scare me way more than Islamic terrorism in this country. With all the nutcases with guns running around here, I'm surprised no one's tried to take a shot at President Obama yet.
And just to be clear, I'm saying it's good no one has, in case some Secret Service agent stumbles across this comment  :)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Guardian85 on January 04, 2016, 10:07:05 AM

I think the media is using "militia" because that's what this gang of white-skinned thugs calls themselves.  If they had brown skin, the media would have no problem calling them thugs.  I just can't believe none of these idiots were jailed long ago.
They should just call them what they really are. Terrorists.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: OldGit on January 04, 2016, 10:20:21 AM
John Brown got hanged for a similar trick.  Just saying.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2016, 12:40:04 PM

I think the media is using "militia" because that's what this gang of white-skinned thugs calls themselves.  If they had brown skin, the media would have no problem calling them thugs.  I just can't believe none of these idiots were jailed long ago.
They should just call them what they really are. Terrorists.
Nope. They haven't killed/harmed/kidnapped anyone for the purpose of causing terror. So they aren't yet terrorists.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Guardian85 on January 04, 2016, 01:06:55 PM

I think the media is using "militia" because that's what this gang of white-skinned thugs calls themselves.  If they had brown skin, the media would have no problem calling them thugs.  I just can't believe none of these idiots were jailed long ago.
They should just call them what they really are. Terrorists.
Nope. They haven't killed/harmed/kidnapped anyone for the purpose of causing terror. So they aren't yet terrorists.
Fair enough. So only armed criminals with an agenda.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Crow on January 04, 2016, 01:52:00 PM
Nope. They haven't killed/harmed/kidnapped anyone for the purpose of causing terror. So they aren't yet terrorists.

They could, using weapons to intimidate for political goal is a form of terrorism.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2016, 06:57:51 PM

I think the media is using "militia" because that's what this gang of white-skinned thugs calls themselves.  If they had brown skin, the media would have no problem calling them thugs.  I just can't believe none of these idiots were jailed long ago.
They should just call them what they really are. Terrorists.
Nope. They haven't killed/harmed/kidnapped anyone for the purpose of causing terror. So they aren't yet terrorists.
Fair enough. So only armed criminals with an agenda.
Quite right!
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 04, 2016, 07:01:45 PM
Nope. They haven't killed/harmed/kidnapped anyone for the purpose of causing terror. So they aren't yet terrorists.

They could, using weapons to intimidate for political goal is a form of terrorism.
Then they'd be intimidators. They actions are not intended, or actually have, induced 'terror'. More likely irritation. Would that make them an 'irritant of arseholes'.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Icarus on January 05, 2016, 03:07:16 AM
^ That would make them wild west cowboys.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 05, 2016, 04:42:08 AM
I could swear I heard something on TV about the Bundy brothers surrendering to serve out the rest of their sentence, but I can't find anything about it now.

In the meantime, here are the thoughts of one of my favorite Xtian bloggers on it: White American Christian Terrorists are still terrorists, aren't they? (http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/01/04/white-american-christian-terrorists-are-still-terrorists-arent-they/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Bluenose on January 05, 2016, 05:49:05 AM
I've been thinking about this, it seems to me that these guys want an armed confrontation with the government.  Don't give it to them.  I agree with the idea of blockading the site, stopping all food, water and power, jamming cell phone access and also jamming all radio broadcasts near the site and then setting up a sound system - but just play one song, maybe ABBA's Mamma Mia, over and over and over and over, continuously and at high volume.  After a couple of weeks of that I'm pretty sure they'll beg to be taken away and locked up in a nice quiet prison cell...
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 05, 2016, 08:23:22 AM
Having read about this I largely support the protesters while wholly deploring their actions. As far as I understand it the two individuals were charged and found guilty of starting an unauthorized fire on government land. This got a relatively sort prison sentence. Before they could serve this the Government charged them under terrorist legislation that carried a minimum 5 year sentence and undoubtedly added them to all kinds of lists in perpetuity. That was not right. However the unfortunate mixture of the American 'I'm right therefore you're wrong!' debating style, where compromise is seen as failure, and the gun toting attitude of the protesters has lead to a perfect storm.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 05, 2016, 09:31:11 AM
I could swear I heard something on TV about the Bundy brothers surrendering to serve out the rest of their sentence, but I can't find anything about it now.

In the meantime, here are the thoughts of one of my favorite Xtian bloggers on it: White American Christian Terrorists are still terrorists, aren't they? (http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/01/04/white-american-christian-terrorists-are-still-terrorists-arent-they/)

The Bundys are true believers as far as I can tell; full of self-righteousness and unlikely to ever admit their cause is stuffed with sawdust. Most likely what you're recalling is a report of the surrender of the Hammonds, whom the Bundys and their gaggle of nitwits believe they're "defending."

The Hammonds have disavowed the militia goons pretty much since they took over the refuge (whose name roughly translates to "bad luck" in French), and had said they would serve out the sentences given them by the judge.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 05, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Having read about this I largely support the protesters while wholly deploring their actions. As far as I understand it the two individuals were charged and found guilty of starting an unauthorized fire on government land. This got a relatively sort prison sentence. Before they could serve this the Government charged them under terrorist legislation that carried a minimum 5 year sentence and undoubtedly added them to all kinds of lists in perpetuity. That was not right. However the unfortunate mixture of the American 'I'm right therefore you're wrong!' debating style, where compromise is seen as failure, and the gun toting attitude of the protesters has lead to a perfect storm.

It appears you've been misinformed, Tank: I'd like to read your source. The Hammonds were convicted of an offence which carried a minimum sentence of five years. In fact there were multiple offenses, but there had been a deal in which the Hammonds would not serve any more than one five year sentence. The judge decided to ignore that and imposed lesser sentences, which the government appealed. On appeal, the finding was in favor of the government. See "What Happened In The Hammond Sentencing In Oregon? A Lawsplainer" (https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 05, 2016, 10:26:52 AM
(http://i64.tinypic.com/166zxbb.jpg)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 05, 2016, 11:38:59 AM
Having read about this I largely support the protesters while wholly deploring their actions. As far as I understand it the two individuals were charged and found guilty of starting an unauthorized fire on government land. This got a relatively sort prison sentence. Before they could serve this the Government charged them under terrorist legislation that carried a minimum 5 year sentence and undoubtedly added them to all kinds of lists in perpetuity. That was not right. However the unfortunate mixture of the American 'I'm right therefore you're wrong!' debating style, where compromise is seen as failure, and the gun toting attitude of the protesters has lead to a perfect storm.

It appears you've been misinformed, Tank: I'd like to read your source. The Hammonds were convicted of an offence which carried a minimum sentence of five years. In fact there were multiple offenses, but there had been a deal in which the Hammonds would not serve any more than one five year sentence. The judge decided to ignore that and imposed lesser sentences, which the government appealed. On appeal, the finding was in favor of the government. See "What Happened In The Hammond Sentencing In Oregon? A Lawsplainer" (https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/)

THIS!!!

A lot of people are also claiming double jeopardy, which pretty much proves no one knows shit about the concept of double jeopardy outside of previews for that shitty Ashley Judd movie no one actually watched.

 
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 05, 2016, 12:36:41 PM
I could swear I heard something on TV about the Bundy brothers surrendering to serve out the rest of their sentence, but I can't find anything about it now.

The Bundys are true believers as far as I can tell; full of self-righteousness and unlikely to ever admit their cause is stuffed with sawdust. Most likely what you're recalling is a report of the surrender of the Hammonds, whom the Bundys and their gaggle of nitwits believe they're "defending."

The Hammonds have disavowed the militia goons pretty much since they took over the refuge (whose name roughly translates to "bad luck" in French), and had said they would serve out the sentences given them by the judge.

That would explain it, I got the players names confused.

but just play one song, maybe ABBA's Mamma Mia, over and over and over and over, continuously and at high volume.

That's too cruel and inhuman.  I'd go with the suggestion to play Coltrane to them, but nice and soft so as to make them all edgy and gay-panicked.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 05, 2016, 12:42:53 PM
Having read about this I largely support the protesters while wholly deploring their actions. As far as I understand it the two individuals were charged and found guilty of starting an unauthorized fire on government land. This got a relatively sort prison sentence. Before they could serve this the Government charged them under terrorist legislation that carried a minimum 5 year sentence and undoubtedly added them to all kinds of lists in perpetuity. That was not right. However the unfortunate mixture of the American 'I'm right therefore you're wrong!' debating style, where compromise is seen as failure, and the gun toting attitude of the protesters has lead to a perfect storm.

It appears you've been misinformed, Tank: I'd like to read your source. The Hammonds were convicted of an offence which carried a minimum sentence of five years. In fact there were multiple offenses, but there had been a deal in which the Hammonds would not serve any more than one five year sentence. The judge decided to ignore that and imposed lesser sentences, which the government appealed. On appeal, the finding was in favor of the government. See "What Happened In The Hammond Sentencing In Oregon? A Lawsplainer" (https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/)
I can't find the article. I do recall that a judge had passed a shorter sentence and that the Government appealed and got the 5 year sentence. The article I read implied that there were two laws and that the first had no 'terrorist' element in it. If I come across the article again I'll post it here.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Tank on January 05, 2016, 12:44:03 PM
I could swear I heard something on TV about the Bundy brothers surrendering to serve out the rest of their sentence, but I can't find anything about it now.

The Bundys are true believers as far as I can tell; full of self-righteousness and unlikely to ever admit their cause is stuffed with sawdust. Most likely what you're recalling is a report of the surrender of the Hammonds, whom the Bundys and their gaggle of nitwits believe they're "defending."

The Hammonds have disavowed the militia goons pretty much since they took over the refuge (whose name roughly translates to "bad luck" in French), and had said they would serve out the sentences given them by the judge.

That would explain it, I got the players names confused.

but just play one song, maybe ABBA's Mamma Mia, over and over and over and over, continuously and at high volume.

That's too cruel and inhuman.  I'd go with the suggestion to play Coltrane to them, but nice and soft so as to make them all edgy and gay-panicked.
William Shatner. No contest!
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 05, 2016, 12:49:52 PM
William Shatner. No contest!

Oh no!  I'm an old school Trekkie and even I couldn't stand that.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 05, 2016, 01:08:48 PM
The Shatner idea has real potential. Good stuff! ;D

I think there's something fascinating about the way he tortures and murders the songs. In the UK right now, there's an ad that uses his massacre of "Bohemian Rhapsody." I actually enjoyed it the first couple of times I saw it.  :watching:

Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Guardian85 on January 05, 2016, 01:32:20 PM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12508906_10206874500558872_7665937701036283338_n.jpg?oh=6c9e6659bbd664e544198dccaea016a1&oe=570CC98F)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on January 05, 2016, 02:22:10 PM
Too bad they weren't also doomsday preppers.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 05, 2016, 03:02:59 PM
Having read about this I largely support the protesters while wholly deploring their actions. As far as I understand it the two individuals were charged and found guilty of starting an unauthorized fire on government land. This got a relatively sort prison sentence. Before they could serve this the Government charged them under terrorist legislation that carried a minimum 5 year sentence and undoubtedly added them to all kinds of lists in perpetuity. That was not right. However the unfortunate mixture of the American 'I'm right therefore you're wrong!' debating style, where compromise is seen as failure, and the gun toting attitude of the protesters has lead to a perfect storm.

It appears you've been misinformed, Tank: I'd like to read your source. The Hammonds were convicted of an offence which carried a minimum sentence of five years. In fact there were multiple offenses, but there had been a deal in which the Hammonds would not serve any more than one five year sentence. The judge decided to ignore that and imposed lesser sentences, which the government appealed. On appeal, the finding was in favor of the government. See "What Happened In The Hammond Sentencing In Oregon? A Lawsplainer" (https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/)
I can't find the article. I do recall that a judge had passed a shorter sentence and that the Government appealed and got the 5 year sentence. The article I read implied that there were two laws and that the first had no 'terrorist' element in it. If I come across the article again I'll post it here.

This is where shit really gets scary to me, because I fully believe that article exists. I've now seen dozens of writings ranging anywhere from news articles to barely coherent rants saying similar. A blatant disregard for facts seems to be a hallmark of the militant gun-loving US extremists, which makes it really fucking difficult to know what's going on.

In any case, the law they were prosecuted under is part of an act aimed at stopping terrorism. But it was the same law both times. The first district judge decided he didn't like the minimum scentance and chose to override it, which he doesn't actually have the authority to do. The government went through the proper channels to appeal his ruling - which, ironically, is why it took long enough for the men to have served their original sentence which seems to be a large part of why people are mad about "double jeopardy". The men were givin the original full minimum sentence with credit for time already served, not fully resentanced to an additional 5 years - which also seems to missing or incorrect in many articles.

 http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Velma on January 05, 2016, 07:13:39 PM
Too bad they weren't also doomsday preppers.
It is rather funny that they seem to be less prepared for an extended occupation of a federal building than most people are for a weekend away.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 07, 2016, 12:24:10 PM
Some damned commie libruls in Portland are having fun at the expense of the glorious patriots at Malheur. The Portland Mercury Blogtown (http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2016/01/06/decembrists-frontman-colin-meloy-tweeted-erotic-fanfiction-about-the-militia-standoff-and-its-awesome?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link)

Quote
"Jason pressed Jed against a rack of "Birds of Oregon" books; his breath was sweet with jerky. Somewhere, an egret cried"
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 07, 2016, 06:09:56 PM
There is a Go Fund Me running to send them $350 worth of gummy dicks.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 07, 2016, 09:46:11 PM
Just in case anybody you know believes that the wannabes playing house at Malheur have a legitimate point: "Supreme Court already ruled that feds rightly own occupied refuge" | OregonLive (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html#incart_river_home)

Quote
Occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge question whether the federal government has unequivocal legal rights to own and manage that land, without regard to the wishes of local property owners and ranchers.

Improbably, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on exactly that question (http://openjurist.org/295/us/1), specifically regarding the lands of the original Malheur national refuge -- twice.

Those rulings by the nation's highest court, in 1902 (http://openjurist.org/185/us/47) and in 1935 (http://openjurist.org/295/us/1), found that the federal government has an incontrovertible claim to the refuge's wetlands and lakebeds, dating back to the 1840s, when Oregon was still a territory.

"Before Oregon was admitted to statehood, the United States is shown to have acquired title which it has never in terms conveyed away," Justice Harlan Stone wrote in 1935.

[Continues . . . (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html#incart_river_home)]

Not that this would make a dent in the true believers' blind support of the Bundy gang.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 07, 2016, 11:18:31 PM
Donate and help support the inalienable right to sneak off and guzzle some booze. (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/tearful-militant-discovers-friend-drank-away-donation-money-its-like-finding-out-there-is-no-such-thing-as-santa/)

Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on January 08, 2016, 03:15:26 PM
Well, it's what they say all those "well fare queens" do with their money, so why not the useless, jobless, layabouts standing around doing nothing?
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 08, 2016, 06:39:40 PM
This is trending on Twitter right now, and no wonder:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bundyeroticfanfic&src=typd (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bundyeroticfanfic&src=typd)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 08, 2016, 08:41:18 PM
#bundyeroticfanfic is amazing.

I am liking that a strong majority seems to be going the way of "let's laugh at these assholes until they crawl away in shame".

Point on my mind: A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that we should blast them to smithereens because "that's what would have happened if they were black or Muslim". While that is most likely what would have happened, I find this an odd train of thought. The worst of us use unjustified violence, so we should all lower ourselves to unjustified violence?  Shouldn't we be holding this as an example of a better way to handle a situation and addressing WHY a minority group would be killed for for the same actions?
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on January 08, 2016, 08:54:47 PM
Point on my mind: A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that we should blast them to smithereens because "that's what would have happened if they were black or Muslim". While that is most likely what would have happened, I find this an odd train of thought. The worst of us use unjustified violence, so we should all lower ourselves to unjustified violence?  Shouldn't we be holding this as an example of a better way to handle a situation and addressing WHY a minority group would be killed for for the same actions?
Yeah, I'd prefer it if we handled all these kinds of situations better. Like handling the minority cases just as calmly instead of adding even more killing.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 08, 2016, 10:22:55 PM
There's a lot of the talk in militia and militia-friendly circles to the effect that many of those at Malheur are government provocateurs. Of course that's pretty much a reflex response for that particular demographic—to hear them tell it, practically all of the mass shootings in the news are false flag operations set up by the vast Obamunist Conspiracy to promote a gun-grabbing agenda.

It's a nice way to back away from all their chest-thumping about taking on the government with their arsenals of personal weapons—they'd be playing into the hands of the Conspiracy if they "fell for" this, "having been provoked by federales in Patriot clothing" (direct quote).
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on January 11, 2016, 01:12:47 PM
There's a lot of the talk in militia and militia-friendly circles to the effect that many of those at Malheur are government provocateurs. Of course that's pretty much a reflex response for that particular demographic—to hear them tell it, practically all of the mass shootings in the news are false flag operations set up by the vast Obamunist Conspiracy to promote a gun-grabbing agenda.

It's a nice way to back away from all their chest-thumping about taking on the government with their arsenals of personal weapons—they'd be playing into the hands of the Conspiracy if they "fell for" this, "having been provoked by federales in Patriot clothing" (direct quote).
Wow, that is kind of funny. Their paranoia is hindering them from ever "rising up against the oppression," because anyone who starts is seen as a trick by the oppressors.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 12, 2016, 11:30:52 PM
The squatting dingbats are getting more than snacks in the mail. "Vanilla ISIS Doesn’t Appreciate Your Bag Of Dicks" | Liberal Alert (http://liberalalert.com/2016/01/12/vanilla-isis-doesnt-appreciate-your-bag-of-dicks/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 13, 2016, 12:01:16 AM
This is so amazing I'm afraid it's satire

79-year-old Bird Watcher Takes Down Militant with Old High School Wrestling Move (http://thelapine.ca/79-year-old-bird-watcher-takes-down-oregon-militant-with-old-high-school-wrestling-move/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 13, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
I like that story, but it is a satire site.  :grin:
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 13, 2016, 01:52:40 AM
"Oregon judge plans to bill Ammon Bundy up to $70,000 a day for security costs to county" | Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-judge-plans-to-bill-ammon-bundy-up-to-70000-a-day-for-security-costs-to-county/)

Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 14, 2016, 10:30:56 AM
Self-righteous goon updates:

"Militant broadcaster brands 15-year-old girl a ‘prostitute’ for crying in fear at Oregon town meeting" | Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/militant-broadcaster-brands-15-year-old-girl-a-prostitute-for-crying-in-fear-at-oregon-town-meeting/)

"Meet The Sovereign Citizen 'Judge' Who Has Linked Up With The Oregon Standoff" | Talking Points Memo (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/meet-bruce-doucette-buddy-s-sovereign-citizen-judge)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on January 14, 2016, 05:46:37 PM
The self professed leader is a bit angry that folks are sending them hate mail along with bags of dicks and dildos...







Modified 1x to replace URL for video, as the original one I posted was removed by the user.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on January 14, 2016, 06:33:04 PM
He looks pretty comfortable handling that dildo and bag of dicks...
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 14, 2016, 10:45:05 PM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2qkm58p.jpg)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: jumbojak on January 15, 2016, 01:31:57 AM
He looks pretty comfortable handling that dildo and bag of dicks...

The bag looked empty to me. Like he had shoved them... somewhere?!
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 15, 2016, 09:44:13 PM
The self professed leader is a bit angry that folks are sending them hate mail along with bags of dicks and dildos...

I was a little startled by his referring to those innocent dildos as "hateful".  What did a dildo ever do to him to be treated with such disrespect?
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 16, 2016, 12:12:49 PM
An arrest in Burns, Oregon, of one of the "militia" gang: "Protester arrested in Burns, accused of driving stolen refuge vehicle" | OregonLive (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/protester_arrested_in_burns_dr.html)

Quote
Oregon State Police on Friday arrested one of the protesters occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge after he drove into town, accusing him of having a stolen vehicle.

The man was identified as Kenneth Medenbach, 62, of Crescent. He was arrested on suspicion of unauthorized use of a motor vehicle, a class C felony punishable by up to five years in prison. He was to be booked into the Deschutes County Jail in Bend with bail set at $10,000, officials said.

According to federal court records, Medenbach is currently facing federal charges in Medford and was released from custody in November. A condition of his release was that he would not "occupy" any federal land. He was accused of illegally camping on federal property.

He is the first person arrested in connection with the armed occupation of the wildlife refuge, taken over two weeks ago.

[Continues . . . (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/protester_arrested_in_burns_dr.html)]
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on January 16, 2016, 05:44:49 PM
A brief look at the background of the "Patriot/Militia" movement, followed by a comprehensive list of reporting on the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge: "The Good, Bad and Ugly in Oregon Standoff Coverage" | FAIR (http://fair.org/home/the-good-bad-and-ugly-in-oregon-standoff-coverage/)

Quote
Published reporting predicting a coming confrontation in Oregon was online as early as July 2015 in a report (http://www.rop.org/patriot-movement-paramilitaries-in-oregon/) written by Spencer Sunshine of PRA [Political Research Associates ] for Oregon’s Rural Organizing Project (http://www.rop.org/issues/issues-category-placeholder/militiapatriot-movement-rural-organizing-tools/), a human rights group that has been targeted for intimidation by a coalition of militias, the 3 Percenters, Sovereign Citizens and Oath Keepers, all subgroups of the broader Patriot movement. According to Sunshine, the Patriot movement is a form of hard-right politics that exists between the right-wing Tea Party end of the Republican Party and the extreme-right white supremacist movement. Generally those in the Patriot movement view the current US federal government as an illegitimate state rapidly heading toward totalitarianism.

[Continues . . . (http://fair.org/home/the-good-bad-and-ugly-in-oregon-standoff-coverage/)]
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Icarus on January 17, 2016, 06:22:26 AM
Whew that last link referenced a lengthy, potentially scary, article.  It is worth a read.  Thanks for that Recusant.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Magdalena on January 28, 2016, 05:53:23 PM
After weeks-long Oregon standoff, Bundy brothers arrested, activist slain in clash with authorities.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-20160127-story.html
 (ftp://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-20160127-story.html)
Quote
...
At least one occupier was killed and eight others were in custody on federal charges Tuesday night after law enforcement struck in a flurry of surprise arrests that caught protesters who had temporarily left the occupied refuge, apparently to attend a community meeting.

Gunshots broke out when the FBI and the Oregon State Police apparently intercepted Bundy and several of his supporters on a rural stretch of U.S. Highway 395.
....
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on January 28, 2016, 06:55:57 PM
After weeks-long Oregon standoff, Bundy brothers arrested, activist slain in clash with authorities.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-20160127-story.html
 (ftp://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-standoff-20160127-story.html)
Quote
...
At least one occupier was killed and eight others were in custody on federal charges Tuesday night after law enforcement struck in a flurry of surprise arrests that caught protesters who had temporarily left the occupied refuge, apparently to attend a community meeting.

Gunshots broke out when the FBI and the Oregon State Police apparently intercepted Bundy and several of his supporters on a rural stretch of U.S. Highway 395.
....

Yeah, so one of these fully armed, threatening, white, conservative, christian terrorists gets himself shot and killed, and some are questioning if authorities didn't overreact and shoot him unnecessarily; yet extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes happen all the time in this country and to question the police motives with regards to some "Thugs (http://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug)" getting killed is deem inappropriate.

Fuck these "Y'all qaeda" terrorists, I hope they get locked up for a long time.


By the way the duchebag from the video I posted earlier in this thread, Jon "Bag O'Dicks" Ritzheimer (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_jon_ritzheimer.html) surrendered himself to authorities and is to be extradited back to Portland (After fleeing back to Arizona a couple of days ago)
He has said he supports Donald Trump in the 2016 U.S. presidential election by the way.



Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on January 29, 2016, 12:34:38 AM
As far as I'm concerned, if someone who has openly stated many times that they will kill law enforcement if given the chance, the second they're seen and don't drop their gun(s) makes them fair game.

I'm surprised this has gone on as long as it has.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 29, 2016, 12:40:19 AM

I'm surprised this has gone on as long as it has.

I think they didn't want them to become martyrs.  Now they just look like little fools, except for the one who looks like a corpse.   He was the guy under the blue tarp a couple of weeks ago - maybe that was prophetic.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 29, 2016, 01:59:18 AM

I'm surprised this has gone on as long as it has.

I think they didn't want them to become martyrs.  Now they just look like little fools, except for the one who looks like a corpse.   He was the guy under the blue tarp a couple of weeks ago - maybe that was prophetic.

Was he the one complaining he'd lost his main source of income when his foster kids were taken away?
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on January 29, 2016, 01:54:39 PM
Here is a link to recently released FBI footage showing the roadblock and subsequent fatal shooting of one of the terrorists. There is no sound, and the video is shot from a helicopter, shot from some distance it's not necessarily graphic in detail.

Clearly shows the man exiting the vehicle, and then after putting his hands in the air later reaching down to his side, where it was later revealed he had a pistol in his coat pocket.

LINK (http://bit.ly/1SnfIRf)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 03, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Clearly shows the man exiting the vehicle, and then after putting his hands in the air later reaching down to his side, where it was later revealed he had a pistol in his coat pocket.

I remember thinking it looked like suicide by cop when I first saw it.

In the meantime, here's an interesting article on the stand-off and masculinity: What The Malheur Occupation Teaches Us About Masculinity (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-m-shaw/what-malheur-occupation-patriarchy-masculinity_b_9116064.html)

Quote
To feel powerless is to fail at masculinity. To be regulated, constrained, fined and jailed is to face challenges to masculinity. And often when men don't feel like "real men," they have to dominate something or someone to reassert their masculinity. In other words, "real men" are not dominated; they dominate. And so, to re-establish their masculinity, these men took up weapons, threatened federal agents, and destroyed federal property. Apparently, running around with guns and keeping the feds at bay made them feel tough; they felt like real men.

Of course, their sense of masculinity was also propped up by their intersecting white privilege and its attendant sense of entitlement. As white men they expect that ownership, power and success are their birthright. They expect to be heard. They believe that they have the right to demand what they want, even if it is over the law and over the wishes of the people of the region.

They demanded that federal lands be returned to "the people." But by "the people" they meant themselves and other white people like them. They certainly didn't mean the Burns Paiute whose land the refuge originally was and who asked them to leave. They didn't mean the people who live in Burns; they also asked the occupiers to leave. They didn't even mean the vast diverse majority of Americans who are free to enjoy the opportunities afforded by the refuge. Somehow, all of these other Americans are not "the people."

I was a bit surprised at how deep I had to get into the comments before the defensive, angry comments cropped up, and even then they weren't the majority.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on February 03, 2016, 08:37:07 PM
Sure looks like all their guns did a lot of good.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 03, 2016, 11:47:36 PM
Sure looks like all their guns did a lot of good.

Yeah, I get the impression the guns turned out to be a bit of a disappointment to the "militia".
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on February 05, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/XEyQSb9.jpg)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on February 05, 2016, 07:05:37 PM
Quote
The reporter asked if he believed it was better to be dead "than in a cell."

"Absolutely," Finicum replied.

They illegally occupied a government building armed with weapons.

They kept saying they would shoot officers.

He reached for a gun, and was shot.

I don't want people to be shot dead, but I can't blame the cops for that shooting.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on February 13, 2016, 10:37:15 AM
Now that the delusional wannabes have left the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, the think-pieces and stock-taking can proceed. "Can we make sense of the Malheur mess?" | High Country News (https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay)

Quote
It is tempting to use the venerable Santayana quote, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” but it doesn’t fit here. Ammon Bundy (I did not meet him during my visit to the refuge) may or may not know the history of land use in the West, but there will be no repeating the free-grazing era of the late 19th century. Not in the fastest-growing developed nation on earth, on a planet that will soon play host to nine or 10 billion human beings. Nothing will be free. What the militants are asking for is almost exactly what more mainstream political leaders like Utah state Rep. Rob Bishop or the American Lands Council, now headed by Montana state Sen. Jennifer Fielder (http://www.hcn.org/articles/new-leader-steps-up-for-the-american-lands-council), say they want, too. The Malheur occupation, with the incessant press coverage in its early weeks, was the soapbox for disseminating payloads of misinformation about America’s public lands, about their management, about how and why we have them. Every soundbite was delivered to further the goal of privatization.

The Bundys and the militants who follow and support them are the agents of their own destruction.

Should these adherents to the land transfer movement succeed and have the public lands given or sold to the states, some version of the State of Deseret will almost certainly flourish. Such a place already exists, of course: the Deseret Ranches, owned by the Church of Latter Day Saints, 235,000 acres in Utah and 678,000 acres in Florida (2 percent of Florida’s landmass). The LDS corporation would certainly be prepared to make some very large purchases of what is now public land, but it is highly unlikely that any of the Bundy family, or any of Finicum’s many children, would be grazing their cows there. Smaller operators cannot own lands that do not put enough pounds on cows to pay property taxes. It is unlikely that any of the current crop of smallholder ranchers anywhere in the West will be able to bid for productive land against the Church; or against families like the Wilks of Texas, who have so far bought over 300,000 acres of austere grazing land north of the Missouri Breaks in Montana; or the Koch family, whose ranch holdings comprise about 460,000 acres (including almost a quarter million acres in Montana); or Ted Turner, who has some 2 million acres across the US; or Stan Kroenke, who two years ago purchased the 165,000-acre Broken O Ranch in Montana and has just bought the 510,000 acre W.T. Waggoner Ranch in Texas.

Buyers, in a world packed and competitive beyond the imaginations of those who set aside these unclaimed and abandoned lands as forest reserves and public grazing lands in the early 1900s, are now everywhere, planet-wide. As Utah State Rep. Ken Ivory, when he was president of the American Lands Council, famously said of privatizing federal lands, “It’s like having your hands on the lever of a modern-day Louisiana Purchase.”

When that lever is pulled, and it will be, unless a majority of Americans know enough about what is at stake to oppose it, we will live through the transformation of our country. Federal water rights that underpin entire agricultural economies, and that are critical to some of the last family farms and ranches in America, will be in play. Few Americans, even those in the cities of the east who know nothing about these lands, will be untouched in some way by the transformation. Once the precedent for divesting federal lands is well-set, the eastern public lands, most of them far more valuable than those in the West, will go on the international auction block. The unique American experiment in balancing the public freedom and good with private interests will be forever shattered, while a new kind of inequality soars, not just inequality of economics and economic opportunity, but of life experience, the chance to experience liberty itself. The understanding that we all share something valuable in common – the vast American landscape, yawning to all horizons and breathtakingly beautiful – will be further broken. These linked notions of liberty and unity and the commons have been obstacles to would-be American oligarchs and plutocrats from the very founding of our nation, which is why they have been systematically attacked since the Gilded Age of the 1890s.

[Continues . . . (https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay)]
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 14, 2016, 05:38:57 AM
Sure looks like all their guns did a lot of good.

Yeah, I get the impression the guns turned out to be a bit of a disappointment to the "militia".

They were nothing like David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco. Those guys were serious. The Oregon bunch were like pretend militia, and then their mothers called them for dinner.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on February 14, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
They were nothing like David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco.

This part I agree with. The Branch Davidians were a religious cult, while the Bad Luck Bunch's motivations were almost entirely political.

Those guys were serious. The Oregon bunch were like pretend militia, and then their mothers called them for dinner.

Not so much this. When the core group was arrested (and one freedom-loving zealot got himself killed) they were en route to a meeting which was part of an attempt to spread their proto-"movement" to other sites. They were ambitious, and thought they would be the seed of a much more wide-spread and formidable opposition to the federal government. Things could have gone much differently if the feds had tried to come in with guns blazing--I don't doubt that if that approach had been taken, the outcome would have been reminiscent of the Waco incident.

I don't have any respect for those people, but I do think they were ready and willing to shoot it out if they'd been given that opportunity.

Also, I understand why you call them "the Oregon bunch," but pretty near all of them were from out of state. While Oregon has its share of far right dipshits, it appears that Malheur wasn't the hill they were prepared to die on.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on February 14, 2016, 10:05:38 PM
Meanwhile, back at the refuge: "After the Oregon standoff, a new occupation begins -- this time it's the birds" | Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sej-oregon-standoff-environment-20160212-story.html)

Quote
The same day four final holdouts ended the armed occupation of a remote wildlife refuge in eastern Oregon, a new occupation was just getting underway.

According to two decades' worth of federal data, Feb. 11 is, on average, the earliest date migrating tundra swans begin appearing at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, exiting the Pacific Flyway to rest in the vast wetlands of the high desert oasis.

Northern pintails have probably already arrived. Red-winged blackbirds, too. This weekend, expect snow geese, then killdeer and sandhill cranes. They will keep coming deep into May – fresh wing beats descending unarmed and unintimidated.

“The animals don’t care who claims to have occupied this refuge,” said Kieran Suckling, the executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity. “They’re coming and they need it as their home.”

[Continues . . . (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sej-oregon-standoff-environment-20160212-story.html)]
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2016, 01:54:49 PM
Sure looks like all their guns did a lot of good.

Yeah, I get the impression the guns turned out to be a bit of a disappointment to the "militia".

They were nothing like David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco. Those guys were serious. The Oregon bunch were like pretend militia, and then their mothers called them for dinner.
Guns didn't do them much good either. Both incidents demonstrate the futility of getting armed conflict with the government, which should show that the, "We need our guns to protect us from an oppressive government!" is bullshit.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on February 15, 2016, 06:50:11 PM
Agreed. The "Second Amendment Remedies" talk and assorted other chest-thumping braggadocio these folks engage in is pure claptrap, and has been ever since at least the American Civil War, if not the Whiskey Rebellion. That doesn't stop the true believers from clinging to their illusions. However, I think that for a lot of them, their stockpiles of arms and ammunition are primarily for dealing with the apocalypse that they're sure is just about to sweep over the United States. Their watchword is "prep and pray."
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on February 15, 2016, 09:01:57 PM
Agreed. The "Second Amendment Remedies" talk and assorted other chest-thumping braggadocio these folks engage in is pure claptrap, and has been ever since at least the American Civil War, if not the Whiskey Rebellion. That doesn't stop the true believers from clinging to their illusions. However, I think that for a lot of them, their stockpiles of arms and ammunition are primarily for dealing with the apocalypse that they're sure is just about to sweep over the United States. Their watchword is "prep and pray."
They may be right, considering how well Trump is doing.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on March 01, 2016, 02:42:56 PM
The FBI released a picture of the elaborate trap used to capture most of the Bundy Bros. and their 2nd Amendment, wacko friends...


(http://i.imgur.com/U1z07tD.jpg)


Apparently they prefer Canadian beer. Who knew? (I would have guessed Coors, Budweiser, maybe Schlitz)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on April 29, 2016, 10:24:19 PM
Apparently one of the figureheads of this farce tried to bargain with the government not long after they were taken into custody. "I'm not guilty, but I'll plead guilty if you let everybody else go!"

Even ignoring the absurdity of this, I think that given the way that many of the armed clowns associated with the earlier showdown in Nevada were rounded up in the aftermath of the Malheur occupation, it seems very likely that the government had formulated a plan by the time the occupation came to an end.

"Oregon Standoff Latest: Ammon Bundy Says Offer to Plead Guilty Was Rejected" | Portland Patch (http://patch.com/oregon/portland/oregon-standoff-latest-ammon-bundy-says-offer-plead-guilty-was-rejected-0)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on April 29, 2016, 10:49:48 PM
Hahaha wtf? That is not how plea deals work...
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Davin on May 02, 2016, 05:01:39 PM
Hahaha wtf? That is not how plea deals work...
I think they consider themselves Sovereign Citizens, which a lot like them trying to pretend to be a citizen of the US while not being subject to any of the laws. It's very crazy stuff if you're not aware of it, the rabbit hole isn't that deep but it's plenty crazy.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on May 02, 2016, 08:33:31 PM
Hahaha wtf? That is not how plea deals work...
I think they consider themselves Sovereign Citizens, which a lot like them trying to pretend to be a citizen of the US while not being subject to any of the laws. It's very crazy stuff if you're not aware of it, the rabbit hole isn't that deep but it's plenty crazy.

I sat on a jury duty where the defendant in the case was trying to use a defense of "Sovereign Citizen", it was very interesting. Basically the police tried to pull this woman over because she was driving while her license plate was expired, and she refused to stop her vehicle and pull over. So they were left with no option, but to force her to a stop, remove her from the vehicle and arrest her.

This was a local city case here in Dearborn.

She had no lawyer, but had asked that her boyfriend who was the one who seemed really versed and bitten by this "Sovereign Citizen" crap to assist her in representing herself.

The judge was actually quite patient and kind to her and allowed her boyfriend to speak for a short while in her defense, in an effort to plead her case, but we ended up finding her guilty of resisting arrest, failure to yield to police, etc...
Not sure if she ever appealed the case or not, but the judge again was quite kind with her in explaining how she might go about appealing the case.

It was quite bizarre, basically they were trying to say that the police had no right whatsoever to pull her over that day, and as a "Sovereign Citizen" she had every right to continue on the "Kings Highway" unappeased. (This was how they repeatedly referred to the roads and highways during her defense)

She was a well spoken young woman, as was her boyfriend, which made the case even more bizarre. They both appeared to be completely bought into this notion of "Sovereign Citizens" and the right as free citizens of the world to do as they pleased without interference from either the government or the police.

Strangely enough the prosecutor offered her a plea deal which she refused to take. They would have dropped the resisting arrest charges, and only found her guilty of expired plates, and another charge for failing to pull over, but it would only had resulted in a misdemeanor charge and a fine rather than a felony for trying to evade.


Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Siz on May 03, 2016, 02:49:10 AM
Hahaha wtf? That is not how plea deals work...
I think they consider themselves Sovereign Citizens, which a lot like them trying to pretend to be a citizen of the US while not being subject to any of the laws. It's very crazy stuff if you're not aware of it, the rabbit hole isn't that deep but it's plenty crazy.

Is that anything like our 'free man on the land' nutters in the UK who try to persuade us that they are not 'legally' subject to statute law because they have asserted themselves as un-contracted to the state? That their common law rights trump their legal law obligations. And that there is a distinction between the 'legal fiction you' (who you are on paper) and the 'sovereign human person you' (the actual physical you) and that the two cannot be conjoined if you expressly assert a separation.

I read a book about it last year because the rebel in me was fascinated. Whether the authors explanations of common law are true or not, I realised, you'll still go to prison because that's what society calls justice, however indignantly defiant you are. And I later found out the author (a woman with a male pen-name) was a serial convict for evading taxes and other daft little protests - evidently her 'free-man' common law protection couldn't protect her at all. Twat.

I'm the mug though - I paid for her book!

I trust these American 'sovereign citizens' have never benefitted from public services (police, education, waste management, road-building etc, etc...) thereby contracting in to the system?
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Firebird on May 03, 2016, 03:36:11 AM
I trust these American 'sovereign citizens' have never benefitted from public services (police, education, waste management, road-building etc, etc...) thereby contracting in to the system?

Except for the fact that they took over a public building on public land. And also have availed themselves of public government land by letting their animals graze on it, without paying for it. A civilized person might call that stealing, but...'Murica!
 :shooty:
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on May 03, 2016, 11:27:54 AM
Plus the gov't programs they directly took advantage of... (http://grist.org/article/7-kinds-of-government-subsidies-those-angry-ranchers-get-that-you-dont/)
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Papasito Bruno on May 06, 2016, 03:02:38 AM
Plus the gov't programs they directly took advantage of... (http://grist.org/article/7-kinds-of-government-subsidies-those-angry-ranchers-get-that-you-dont/)

Good article PC.

These so-called ranchers, the GOP candidates and their supporters alike hide behind a false patriotism as well, in other words nationalism. 

I do hope these fucks rot in jail for a long time.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Recusant on October 28, 2016, 12:47:48 AM
Welp (http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/oregon_standoff_verdicts_annou.html) the news from the courtroom is . . . bizarre.   :whirly: :watching:
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Dragonia on October 28, 2016, 03:27:50 AM
Behold! The power of prayer! 'Cause there is no better explanation  :o
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Dave on October 28, 2016, 05:47:00 AM
I was going to post, "Only in America . . .", but this kind of thing happens in other countries where there is some kind of corrupting influence.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Pasta Chick on October 28, 2016, 10:12:01 AM
Especially disturbing with what's been happening at Standing Rock.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 28, 2016, 10:40:48 AM
Especially disturbing with what's been happening at Standing Rock.

I've seen a lot of comparison made between the two, hoping this doesn't blow up in a particularly nasty way.
Title: Re: Armed "Militia", Bundy Brothers, Take Over Federal Building in Rural Oregon
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on October 28, 2016, 11:25:27 AM
Bundy's lawyer was stunned after the verdict. (heh, heh).