Questions about Humanism

[Dave]

"In the context of my Christian faith" simply means that I believe that my grandchildren have a purpose, are here for a reason, and are guided by a loving God.  I don't beat my grandchildren, although I find it curious that I would find it necessary to say that.

In the context of my humanist beliefs I consider that all people are here because that is the way reptoduction works and they all deserve to be raised and educated in a manner that will help them find a purpose that benefits humankind and or the world we live on.

Your last sentence was not necessary. Looks like a minor case of "getting your defence in first" in case of attack. 

I think you're one of the good guys, Bruce.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

[drfreemlizard]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

[Dave]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

Ignoring the fact that you missed quoting and it looks like you agree with Tank . . .

The bits I have emboldened are exacty right in my belief. Excepting the fact that our brains developed sufficiently to invent and encompass such concepts as species superiority it is a kind of hubris for mankind to consider, in the "view" of the uncaring Universe, he is any better than the other apes, or even a mouse. Or lesser creature - we just provide a bit more fertiliser for future generation - OK, less fertilser than an elephant does.

Added: I suppose you might consider generating knowledge as a kind of transgenerational mind fertiliser!

Our purpose? To provide a better world for forthcoming generations which is a task, so far, we singularly fail in en masse regardless of belief or lack thereof. And despite religion being a major controlling authority for most of mankind's written history. Death and destruction ruled then and now and your "God" has not done a lot about it.

Yes, entropy cometh. One day every particle in the Universe will be the same temperature as every other, all radioactive elements will have reduced to their first stable isotopes and there will be  no energy gradients to drive reactions. Be a long time coming though, we will have died off long before that.

And arguing about an "afterlife" is utterly futile if one person totally believes in it and another thinks it is merely hopeful rubbish with no foundation in reality.

[drfreemlizard]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

Ignoring the fact that you missed quoting and it looks like you agree with Tank . . .

Ah yes, I am not entirely sure how to do that in tapatalk without quoting the entire post or string of posts. Captain Thunder thumbs, I am not.

"Our purpose? To provide a better world for forthcoming generations..."

Why? Who makes that our purpose? Does it come from some external source (which would be a deity) or does it come from within (in which case it is arbitrary)?

This still does not answer the question of purpose. It is a philosophical and psychological band aid.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

[Dave]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

]

Ignoring the fact that you missed quoting and it looks like you agree with Tank . . .

Ah yes, I am not entirely sure how to do that in tapatalk without quoting the entire post or string of posts. Captain Thunder thumbs, I am not.

"Our purpose? To provide a better world for forthcoming generations..."

Why? Who makes that our purpose? Does it come from some external source (which would be a deity) or does it come from within (in which case it is arbitrary)?

This still does not answer the question of purpose. It is a philosophical and psychological band aid.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

What is the purpose of a bee? To make more bees and provide for the young so they can make even more bees. Ditto mouse, porpoise, elephant, ape etc, etc. Some evidence recently that suggests even trees support their seedlings and younger siblings. Why else does life continue to exist? It is the nature of "Nature".

That we evolutionarily developed language and spare brain capacity (over and above that needed to survive, reproduce successfully and so ensure species survival) is chance in my belief, there is a lot of evidence to support our evolution from "lesser" hominids. Otherwise, as said before, we have no purpose better than the other animals, we are egotistical as a species and can invent concepts, such as gods and having domain over the lesser animals, that try to explain things when we had no real knowledge of their basis and give us extra importance.

I do not need a bandaid (except a new one on my scraped knee after my shower) to support these ideas, I simply accept them as the, currently, most viable explanation. Occam's Razor applies. If anything "God" is the bandaid chosen to allow people not to fear their ultimate and utter physical and psychical death.

Provide me with concrete proof otherwise, not faith-belief, and I might consider joining you! Still no Pascal's Wager for me yet though . . .

At 73 with a serious heart condition I know that death can come at any moment, I would prefer that moment to be a long way in the future but do not fear the moment - even believing that utter extinction will follow. Just want to make sure my estate provides for those I care a bit about. And some charities since I have no family.

[Arturo]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

So you just have to learn to define your purpose in other ways. I think it's fascinating what science tells us. More so than any religious book that I've read. But at the same time, I do want to teach people what I know personally. That's not a religion. That's my purpose that I set out to have for the world. The thing about the NPR article helped me understand that there is something valuable and unique about me that most people in the United States don't have but I can still bring it to the table and help society be more proud and confident and productive in their selves.

Also the things I read in a the personal trainer books that I am studying for to take the certification exam have more purpose then just memorizing to get a certificate. It helps me creatively build more programs that will better suit people with different needs and wants. And I get that all from just reading one chapter.

So you can say we were spawned by an indifferent universe and I would agree, but I also think it's fascinating that we made it out of that and still continue to thrive and be live our lives daily without issue. And yeah sure you can fear death and that's the end of everything, for you that is. But life goes on after you die, hopefully. And the best way to tackle any issue is with confidence. So before you die, make sure you leave your mark on the world, and make it a positive mark for the rest of society and the planet. Because this is the only planet we have and we have to take care of it. The universe may die and fizzle out one day, and possibly us with it, but at least we all died together. And we have the possibility of so many things in the future that we could hypothetically take care of our universe as we should do with our planet earth right now to preserve it and create life and energy without having to rely on the universe to supply it for us. Because the biggest factor in the universe's death, is that it's expansion will create a gap too large between things to create a reaction, and therefore energy. So we have the possibility, and that's why it's so fascinating.

And before anyone goes saying it's a belief system. It's not because things can change and flow. And nothing is for certain when it comes to science. Things and ideas can change or be incorrect all together and thrown out the window. It's not a static ambiguous text that cannot be challenged or questioned and all humans have to subscribe to it or face eternal suffering threats from your pastor. I don't think I would want to live forever. There are plenty of people in the USA who don't even want to live now and make it a point to end their suffering. And I'm sure a lot of people do not want that. Both atheists and christians alike. We just have different ways going about it. And I think telling people to "accept Jesus" to get help or they will let you continue to suffer, is in my mind, abuse of power. If you gave that person the help they needed and kept religion out of it, they would still get help and probably end up a lot better. Because then they don't have anything to fear. They don't have to try to conform to people's standards under the guise of God to receive help. That's forcing someone to submit to you and your will and believe what you believe. So it's likely not authentic belief and like I said before, that's something that only happens under a dictatorship.

But there are a lot of things very caring people see that is wrong with society like the argumentative angry verbally and emotionally abusive people who have banded together. And I tell those people, if that's what is on their mind, that's what they should be trying to fix. That's the improvement they should try make and the mark they should try to leave on society and the world. But if you keep trying to show them the bad things, all they will believe is the bad things, and so will you. And that's no good for anybody. That's bad for all of those involved self esteem and the best thing for them them to do in that situation is to leave. Not leave their calling. But leave you alone. Because if that's what your goal is, is to show people evil and bad things and stuff they do, then they shouldn't be involved with you. And they probably won't want to be anyway.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.


A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

There is no plank in my eye.  I don't judge humanists or suggest that they can't find meaning or purpose. I might be wrong about my beliefs.  My issue is with the suggestion that a theist's act of love or kindness automatically ranks lower on the value scale. That's bullshit and Tank knows it. He's being obstinate, not rational.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

"In the context of my Christian faith" simply means that I believe that my grandchildren have a purpose, are here for a reason, and are guided by a loving God.  I don't beat my grandchildren, although I find it curious that I would find it necessary to say that.

So do I, since I thought it was clear I didn't think you did.

Perhaps my statement was superfluous.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If I, as a Christian, love my grandchildren and act accordingly, in the context of my faith, is that a net negative for the world when compared to the humanist who loves his grandchildren in the context of his humanism?  It sounds like that is the argument being made.

I'm not sure I understand this debate at all, but I would say that, all things being equal, an act that benefits others has the same value no matter who does it or why.  The problem comes in with things very rarely being equal, and with how they are unequal. 

For instance, you have two groups handing out bags of food, water and sundries to homeless people.  One group gives them the supplies without asking for anything in return, the other group requires each homeless person to declare that they "accept Jesus" before they receive a bag of supplies (which is what one church in my city does).

Both groups benefited homeless people, and those who dealt with the "accept Jesus" first group only had to go thru a religious ritual that was functionally meaningless.  But do these acts still have the same value?  For me, I'd have to say no.  Tho there isn't much difference between them, I think the group who held the supplies hostage briefly has tainted their action.

As far as you personally in the love of your grandchildren, I would accept that it's equal in value to a humanist's love for his grandchildren, based on what I've learned about you in this forum.  Tho I'm still curious about what "in the context of your faith" involves.  I'd bet a lot of money that you wouldn't beat a child for disrespecting you as a way of showing your love of your god, tho there are plenty of Xtians who would and in my opinion that would certainly reduce the value of their love.

As for not proving that there is no god, 1) most of us don't make that claim, and 2) proving a negative is a logical impossibility so don't even bother asking for it.

"In the context of my Christian faith" simply means that I believe that my grandchildren have a purpose, are here for a reason, and are guided by a loving God.  I don't beat my grandchildren, although I find it curious that I would find it necessary to say that.

So the inference being that non-Christian humans have no purpose or reason to exist. Look in the mirror Bruce, can you see that plank in your eye?

No, I'm simply telling you what my faith means to me.  I have nothing to say about your world view - I'm only describing mine. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

One only carries a burden of proof when one is attempting to prove something.  If one is simply explaining one's position and not trying to convince, there is no burden of proof.

[Recusant]

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose.

Since there is no definitive support for the existence of an ultimate purpose for humanity that exists outside the minds of people, it's completely reasonable to doubt that there is any such thing. If an objectively existing ultimate purpose is illusory, all that has been lost is the spurious comfort provided by the illusion. Note as well that there are a variety of supposed ultimate purposes available to choose from. None of them can support a claim to be the actual ultimate purpose while all others are false.

It's readily apparent; people promote the idea of an ultimate purpose for humanity that objectively exists, and different people promote different ultimate purposes. This tells us that people invent ultimate purposes for humanity, since not all of them can be the one true ultimate purpose. Knowing that at best all but one of the choices on offer must be false, and given the tendency for this sort of invention that our species displays, one is left to conclude that it's rather likely that all "ultimate purposes" are inventions.

You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Or perhaps this is just an example of religious Munchausen syndrome by proxy. I don't feel any gaping wound, and you telling people that I have one doesn't conjure it into existence.

Spawned by chance in an indifferent universe, brought to our current  state by brutal and uncaring natural selection, our end oblivion and a small pile of compost. That is what atheism tells us we are, as a race.

Atheism doesn't tell us any such thing. You're using negative terminology to describe your view of a godless existence but I needn't subscribe to it. It's not hard to put forth an alternate way of describing a godless existence without the negativity.

Humanity is a manifestation of the universe that is capable of an ever-expanding knowledge and understanding of the universe--the universe becoming conscious of itself, if you will. The universe is amazing, and our ability to learn about the universe is also amazing. Like all things in the universe, we exist on a temporary basis but to paraphrase Mark Twain, for many billions of years we didn't exist and none of us suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

We can go out and do things, even things we think of as great or worthy or noble. but the end of all is death. Even the universe is is slowly being ground down by entropy as per the second Law of Thermodynamics.

A Man Said to the Universe
BY STEPHEN CRANE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

I don't see anything wrong with that, nor do I find it even mildly discouraging.

[Dave]

One only carries a burden of proof when one is attempting to prove something.  If one is simply explaining one's position and not trying to convince, there is no burden of proof.

So, the difference being:

"I believe in God and the life everlasting."

Versus

"God exists and the righteous will live forever."

Yup,the first is a given right. Believe in whatever you like!

The second, if a public claim, is open to demands to justify, substantiate or prove it to the audience's satisfaction. If made in a church or other private setting ain't nothing to do with anyone else.

Note: rant deleted as being irrelevant to rest of post.

[Dave]

One only carries a burden of proof when one is attempting to prove something.  If one is simply explaining one's position and not trying to convince, there is no burden of proof.

So, the difference being:

"I believe in God and the life everlasting."

Versus

"God exists and the righteous will live forever."

Yup,the first is a given right. Believe in whatever you like!

The second, if a public claim, is open to demands to justify, substantiate or prove it to the audience's satisfaction. If made in a church or other private setting ain't nothing to do with anyone else.

But, teaching kids such things at an impressionable age, and especially using such to ransome their good behaviour, I would love to see made illegal.


Note: rant deleted as being irrelevant to rest of post.

Oops, I hit quote instead of modufy, :duh: !

[Velma]

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

There is no gaping wound caused by my atheism. Oddly enough, the gaping wound that I did have only started to heal once I became an atheist. I do not need some grand "ultimate purpose" force fed to me by some demented father figure.

[Dave]

The inference being, actually, that an atheistic view robs humanity of any ultimate purpose. You can fill your life with activity and call it purpose, but it is only a bandaid on the gaping wound.

Not sure whether I have used the analogy here but I have often used "the god shaped hole" to desctibe what might be a genetic need for a deity of some variety, and the Abrahamic god is only one of many, probably thousands, mankind has "'employed" in its entire history. Not sure about the "God gene" hypothesis. I would love to find out if I have that gene because I have never felt that void within my psyche. Perhaps I blocked it up with curiosity before the vicars and teachers got a look in?

I was certainly always in bad odour for questioning the lessons and writings from the very start. And that was not learnt ftom my parents, they did not give a damn what I thought or did providing I did not annoy them in any way.

I may have reiterated a bit from previous posts there, pardon me if I did, put it down to my dotage and my being in post-bath + vino stage latish at night.