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Are Christian Morals Superior?

Started by Asherah, April 23, 2012, 03:36:49 AM

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ThinkAnarchy

#15
Quote from: Whitney on April 24, 2012, 03:18:04 AM
Quote from: Asherah on April 24, 2012, 02:39:00 AM
Quote from: Tank on April 23, 2012, 08:43:42 AM
There are things in the Bible, Slavery for example, that have been eradicated, or at least legislated against, in all civilised societies as human moral behaviour evolves.

I brought up this very thing to my mom and she said that biblical slavery wasn't cruel. They had slaves because the slaves had a debt to pay off and they treated the slaves decently. And, I said, "So, slavery is okay as long as the slave has a debt to pay and the owner treats them nice? Why don't we do that nowadays?" and she said, "Because people go and file bankruptcy." But, I should have really pressed her on that. Because, even if people couldn't file bankruptcy, we wouldn't keep slaves because forcing someone into slavery, no matter how "nice" the conditions might be, is wrong!!!


Also, indentured servitude is not the only form of slavery okayed by god in the bible.  It says it is also okay to take the virgin women from conquered tribes as wives and that's like sex slavery.  The general position of women in many parts of the bible is subservient to men and imo another form of slavery.
Even if it can't be equated to slavery; it's still clearly rape. The argument is valid regardless of the slavery aspect in my opinion.  

Added: Never mind, I think you were referring to women simply being subservient to men in the bible as the questionable slavery example. Not sure if I agree with that, though I think the subservient idea is clearly wrong, from the religious view.
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

Whitney

Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to christianity.  It's only immoral if a man rape someone he doesn't intend to keep as a wife or that is already married.  Then it is left up to the woman to prove that she was raped by having to present witnesses who can say that she did indeed cry out for help loud enough.  And once raped the woman is figuratively and literally screwed either way since it's either forced marriage or death.

Sweetdeath

^

I bet if you bring this up to your mum, she'll just stick her fingers in her ears.
Some people just dont care to hear the truth, because they love feeling special or better than everyone else.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

The Magic Pudding

There's no democracy that I know of in the bible, plenty of kings.  All the "Lord" this lord that annoys me but it seems to be set up as the natural order.  The principle that a person has a right to rule over another due to an accident of birth or application of force, we had to fight long hard to shake that off, no help from the good book.

En_Route

Quote from: Whitney on April 24, 2012, 03:27:56 AM
Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to christianity.  It's only immoral if a man rape someone he doesn't intend to keep as a wife or that is already married.  Then it is left up to the woman to prove that she was raped by having to present witnesses who can say that she did indeed cry out for help loud enough.  And once raped the woman is figuratively and literally screwed either way since it's either forced marriage or death.

I really don't know where you get this from. The idea that Christianity sanctions rape is certainly novel.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

history_geek

Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: Whitney on April 24, 2012, 03:27:56 AM
Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to christianity.  It's only immoral if a man rape someone he doesn't intend to keep as a wife or that is already married.  Then it is left up to the woman to prove that she was raped by having to present witnesses who can say that she did indeed cry out for help loud enough.  And once raped the woman is figuratively and literally screwed either way since it's either forced marriage or death.

I really don't know where you get this from. The idea that Christianity sanctions rape is certainly novel.


For example Deuteronomy 22:

Quote23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22&version=NIV

Also:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clarke's Third Law
"Any sufficiently advanced alien is indistinguishable from a god."
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En_Route

Quote from: history_geek on April 24, 2012, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: Whitney on April 24, 2012, 03:27:56 AM
Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to christianity.  It's only immoral if a man rape someone he doesn't intend to keep as a wife or that is already married.  Then it is left up to the woman to prove that she was raped by having to present witnesses who can say that she did indeed cry out for help loud enough.  And once raped the woman is figuratively and literally screwed either way since it's either forced marriage or death.

I really don't know where you get this from. The idea that Christianity sanctions rape is certainly novel.


For example Deuteronomy 22:

Quote23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22&version=NIV

Also:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm




The bible is a mess of contradictions and the fact remains that the sanctioning of rape does not represent Christian orthodoxy and it is futile to pretend otherwise.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

ThinkAnarchy

Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
The bible is a mess of contradictions and the fact remains that the sanctioning of rape does not represent Christian orthodoxy and it is futile to pretend otherwise.

I'm sorry, but when people claim to base their theology on one book and continually use that book to defend their position, including their superior morality, it is perfectly valid to bring up all the immoral aspects of the bible.

I don't think anyone is pretending Christians still sanction rape, but when we are talking about moral superiority, Christianity doesn't have the best tract record. In fact, their book is a hodgepodge of immoral behavior.

"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

En_Route

Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on April 24, 2012, 05:32:59 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
The bible is a mess of contradictions and the fact remains that the sanctioning of rape does not represent Christian orthodoxy and it is futile to pretend otherwise.

I'm sorry, but when people claim to base their theology on one book and continually use that book to defend their position, including their superior morality, it is perfectly valid to bring up all the immoral aspects of the bible.

I don't think anyone is pretending Christians still sanction rape, but when we are talking about moral superiority, Christianity doesn't have the best tract record. In fact, their book is a hodgepodge of immoral behavior.



I was responding directly to the preposterous claim that "Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to Christianity."  Christians might argue that much of what was (arguably in some cases still is) done in the name of their religion was in fact based on a gross distortion and subversion of its true tenets. The Bible is a farrago of barbarism and contradictory versions of Jesus's  import and significance, subject to mistranslations, endless re-writes, selective editing and theological reverse-engineering. I'm not convinced that it's actually possible to reconstruct a coherent  and persuasive account of Christian doctrine from the Bible itself; hence the  myriad interpretations espoused by the disparate branches of this fractured faith.

Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Sweetdeath

Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on April 24, 2012, 05:32:59 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
The bible is a mess of contradictions and the fact remains that the sanctioning of rape does not represent Christian orthodoxy and it is futile to pretend otherwise.

I'm sorry, but when people claim to base their theology on one book and continually use that book to defend their position, including their superior morality, it is perfectly valid to bring up all the immoral aspects of the bible.

I don't think anyone is pretending Christians still sanction rape, but when we are talking about moral superiority, Christianity doesn't have the best tract record. In fact, their book is a hodgepodge of immoral behavior.



I was responding directly to the preposterous claim that "Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to Christianity."  Christians might argue that much of what was (arguably in some cases still is) done in the name of their religion was in fact based on a gross distortion and subversion of its true tenets. The Bible is a farrago of barbarism and contradictory versions of Jesus's  import and significance, subject to mistranslations, endless re-writes, selective editing and theological reverse-engineering. I'm not convinced that it's actually possible to reconstruct a coherent  and persuasive account of Christian doctrine from the Bible itself; hence the  myriad interpretations espoused by the disparate branches of this fractured faith.



So when passages are extracted from the actual bible, you make an excuse for it? :\
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

En_Route

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 24, 2012, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on April 24, 2012, 05:32:59 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
The bible is a mess of contradictions and the fact remains that the sanctioning of rape does not represent Christian orthodoxy and it is futile to pretend otherwise.

I'm sorry, but when people claim to base their theology on one book and continually use that book to defend their position, including their superior morality, it is perfectly valid to bring up all the immoral aspects of the bible.

I don't think anyone is pretending Christians still sanction rape, but when we are talking about moral superiority, Christianity doesn't have the best tract record. In fact, their book is a hodgepodge of immoral behavior.



I was responding directly to the preposterous claim that "Rape...that's another thing that's not immoral according to Christianity."  Christians might argue that much of what was (arguably in some cases still is) done in the name of their religion was in fact based on a gross distortion and subversion of its true tenets. The Bible is a farrago of barbarism and contradictory versions of Jesus's  import and significance, subject to mistranslations, endless re-writes, selective editing and theological reverse-engineering. I'm not convinced that it's actually possible to reconstruct a coherent  and persuasive account of Christian doctrine from the Bible itself; hence the  myriad interpretations espoused by the disparate branches of this fractured faith.



So when passages are extracted from the actual bible, you make an excuse for it? :\

I've explained that the Bible is an inconsistent mishmash.Not every passage in it reflects Christian dogma.I'm not really interested in the mechanics of how Christians have sidelined or downplayed the embarrassing bits of the Old Testament.I'm not really interested either in attacking a straw man and pretending that Christians approve of rape on the basis of selective quotations from the Bible.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Stevil

Quote from: Asherah on April 24, 2012, 02:39:00 AM
I brought up this very thing to my mom and she said that biblical slavery wasn't cruel.
A person using this argument isn't open minded and isn't basing opinion on actions but instead assertions.
God is good and perfect therefore drowning almost everyone, the animals and plant life was the good, perfect thing to do, setting a couple of bears onto children was the good, perfect thing to do, Moses commanding his army to rape virgin girls was good and perfect. Slavery, good and perfect. All hail the mighty YHWH.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Stevil on April 24, 2012, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: Asherah on April 24, 2012, 02:39:00 AM
I brought up this very thing to my mom and she said that biblical slavery wasn't cruel.
A person using this argument isn't open minded and isn't basing opinion on actions but instead assertions.
God is good and perfect therefore drowning almost everyone, the animals and plant life was the good, perfect thing to do, setting a couple of bears onto children was the good, perfect thing to do, Moses commanding his army to rape virgin girls was good and perfect. Slavery, good and perfect. All hail the mighty YHWH.

This is such a sad, brainwashed way of thinking.
How simple minded these type of people are.
I cant wait til the lot of this generation dies off.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Tank

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 24, 2012, 11:43:26 PM
Quote from: Stevil on April 24, 2012, 09:53:26 PM
Quote from: Asherah on April 24, 2012, 02:39:00 AM
I brought up this very thing to my mom and she said that biblical slavery wasn't cruel.
A person using this argument isn't open minded and isn't basing opinion on actions but instead assertions.
God is good and perfect therefore drowning almost everyone, the animals and plant life was the good, perfect thing to do, setting a couple of bears onto children was the good, perfect thing to do, Moses commanding his army to rape virgin girls was good and perfect. Slavery, good and perfect. All hail the mighty YHWH.

This is such a sad, brainwashed way of thinking.
How simple minded these type of people are.
I cant wait til the lot of this generation dies off.
Wishing people dead isn't very nice  ;)
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Quote from: Tank on April 25, 2012, 08:18:32 AM
Wishing people dead isn't very nice  ;)
One can, however, apply Asmoskills to it and make it, if nothing else, interesting  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.