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Music forum

Started by Tank, April 21, 2012, 09:55:24 AM

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Tank

I have noticed the recent influx of musicians and have added a music forum to support this interest. It's also a very secular subject so all our members irrespective of their theistic/atheistic world views can participate on equal footing.

If you come across an old music thread on the forum add a post 'Bump for music' and the staff will move it here.

Enjoy  ;D
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Ok I've looked all through Media and the first 400 posts in LBL and moved all the obvious threads here.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

rickrocks

Y'know...

I'm a professional musician and I must say that the current state of music is that it is wondering what its place will be in the future. Yes, plenty of our students in colleges and conservatories are putting their all into the study and practice. I dare say that much more emphasis and effort should be put towards teaching musicianship and music appreciation and music theory and history, in all levels, pre-school to college. Today's drastic cuts in the budgets of school districts nationwide do a great disservice to our students and children. Especially these days, it must be demoralizing for people coming out of intensive and prestigious music schools. The very finest players worldwide compete for the precious few chair available in the top orchestras and for the rest, it's scrape, scrounge, and lobby for whatever studio or radio and tv gigs are out there. There are also an ever-shrinking pool of jobs for music educators, in light of recent cuts of music programs by school districts.

One huge one is the advent of electronic multimedia presentations. Rarely do we see anymore people flocking in droves for a classical music concert, unless it is a multimedia extravaganza. In the early years of television, you would frequently see classical performances, and even TV series (notably by Leonard Bernstein and Glenn Gould) devoted to classical music. Can you imagine this today?

I don't mean to decry other media, and it is certain that electronics is responsible, by today, of bringing the entire world to the internet and instantly to the entire world. But to me, as one who eats, sleeps, dreams, converses, and works in the language of music, it's very curious how music has taken a back seat to television and multi-media. The song line from early MTV, "Video killed the radio star" really is accurate, to a degree.

People, by and large, as we skeptics know well, are prone to flock together and consume easy, low-hanging fruit on the tree of art, if you will. That and in this push-button, animated, automated, automatic, instant, effortless access to entertainment makes people believe that this music stuff is just a frill, like a movie is played through a digital processor which automatically adds music to a film or TV show. But a difference today is that one person can literally be the only one responsible for the composition, performance, and production of all the music in a movie. No more is a large and talented orchestra needed to produce fantastic music for media.

I think a couple of things are out of whack. One is the aforementioned sacrifice of music education in our elementary, middle, and high schools. The resulting ignorance of the people is very disheartening.

That being said, (you can tell by now that I have a lot to say on the  subject!)

I must say that I love the fact that the entire world of music is instantly available online! I could spend all day every day searching, digging and sharing music. It's an effortless way to constantly be on a fantastic world tour of cultures. This has the effect not only of sharing across sometimes otherwise impenetrable barriers. It also leads to inevitable mixing of influences, creating whole new styles, or whole new markets for these new and existing styles of music, as well as dance, food, traditions, etc.

I could write a book. hmmm...

Anyway, input of other musicians would be appreciated as well as lay people and plain ol' music lovers.

rickrocks

Perhaps folks arent used to talking about music beyond their personal likes and dislikes. This is predictable in the modern day.

Stevil

Quote from: rickrocks on April 23, 2012, 08:41:05 PM
Rarely do we see anymore people flocking in droves for a classical music concert, unless it is a multimedia extravaganza.
My wife scored some tickets to a classical concert.
We were the only non wrinklies there. The other attendees were at least 30 years older than us.
My wife fell asleep early on, and at the half time break we left and went home. It was a pretty dull experience.

I'm not too happy that my tax money goes towards artificially supporting a music form that cannot commercially stand on its own two feet.

Crow

Quote from: rickrocks on April 25, 2012, 10:10:38 PM
Perhaps folks arent used to talking about music beyond their personal likes and dislikes. This is predictable in the modern day.

I'm indifferent to how the music industry moves forward personally. I stopped working with the music industry very shortly after entering my career, it was clear to see that there was no money in it. I am frequently told that in the 80's and early 90's you could charge around £12k for an album cover (depending upon circumstances) but trying to get just a grand for one now is like pulling teeth, the clients want far more than what they were getting in the golden age of records for less time and fuck all money. I don't want anything to do with the music industry unless it is something genuinely interesting as it is far more hassle than what its worth, but that might just be because I have had bad experiences with the industry in the past (so have all my peers, especially on the business side of things).

As long as people are passionate about music there will be people creating the stuff. I prefer how the technology has moved to help benefit the independent musicians and shake the foundations of the major labels, with the creation of website such as soundcloud and bandcamp it is possible to support musicians rather than the record labels and gives everyone the chance to showcase their abilities.
Retired member.

Harmonie

Quote from: Stevil on April 25, 2012, 10:51:09 PM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 23, 2012, 08:41:05 PM
Rarely do we see anymore people flocking in droves for a classical music concert, unless it is a multimedia extravaganza.
My wife scored some tickets to a classical concert.
We were the only non wrinklies there. The other attendees were at least 30 years older than us.
My wife fell asleep early on, and at the half time break we left and went home. It was a pretty dull experience.

That's a shame. Even though I love classical music and it probably accounts for around 50% of what I listen to, I know that some of it can certainly be boring. However, I just don't like this stereotype that it's all boring. Every genre has its 'boring'. Beyond that, I've found that a first listen of a lot of pop music has been boring for me but I liked it later on.

Like anything else, you've just got to find what you like. Going to a random classical concert isn't likely to be too satisfying. However, going to one where they play pieces you like and know would be different.

Icon Image by Cherubunny on Tumblr
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

Stevil

#7
Quote from: Radiant on April 26, 2012, 05:43:24 PM
QuoteMy wife scored some tickets to a classical concert.
We were the only non wrinklies there. The other attendees were at least 30 years older than us.
My wife fell asleep early on, and at the half time break we left and went home. It was a pretty dull experience.

That's a shame. Even though I love classical music and it probably accounts for around 50% of what I listen to, I know that some of it can certainly be boring. However, I just don't like this stereotype that it's all boring. Every genre has its 'boring'. Beyond that, I've found that a first listen of a lot of pop music has been boring for me but I liked it later on.

Like anything else, you've just got to find what you like. Going to a random classical concert isn't likely to be too satisfying. However, going to one where they play pieces you like and know would be different.
Yes, music is generally an aquired taste.
I'm not fused on pop music, but love heavy metal, it is complex but filled with energy.

Amicale

Quote from: Tank on April 21, 2012, 10:13:22 AM
Ok I've looked all through Media and the first 400 posts in LBL and moved all the obvious threads here.

Tank, meant to say this earlier... thank you for doing all this work! Wow!


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Tank

Quote from: Amicale on April 26, 2012, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 21, 2012, 10:13:22 AM
Ok I've looked all through Media and the first 400 posts in LBL and moved all the obvious threads here.

Tank, meant to say this earlier... thank you for doing all this work! Wow!
Thank you Amicale I appreciate the acknowledgement.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

rickrocks

Quote from: Crow on April 26, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 25, 2012, 10:10:38 PM
Perhaps folks arent used to talking about music beyond their personal likes and dislikes. This is predictable in the modern day.

As long as people are passionate about music there will be people creating the stuff. I prefer how the technology has moved to help benefit the independent musicians and shake the foundations of the major labels, with the creation of website such as soundcloud and bandcamp it is possible to support musicians rather than the record labels and gives everyone the chance to showcase their abilities.

Crow, your post speaks to a lot that's been changing.

Starting with the downfall of the major labels and their "star maker machinery", to quote the song, I agree that this has been a good thing for creativity in general, and I am also not a fan of the corporate worldview. Digital technology has really created a new playing field in which just about anybody with a laptop can create a recording studio in a walk-in closet!

There is a downside to the evolution of social structure. I don't mourn the passing of the major labels, but there are some kinds of art, music and other, that need a major investment in order to survive the transition from idea to reality, an example being the symphony orchestra. Regardless of anyone's likes and dislikes, it is a fact that for the better part of a thousand years, orchestra music has been an important element in the development, both of the production and consumption of music. Some of history's most profound creations can be found among the myriad musical works across this history. Part of the reason that this is true is that there was a sizable number of royal houses and churches who subsidized entire orchestras and retained the services of renowned composers. Am I arguing that because of this, class society deserves a pass on all of the oppression and war caused by the royalty? Not a bit. I'm just saying that the result of this support for art by the "great houses" was a great body of works that would have not even happened had these composers not been given the freedom to conceive and produce as they saw fit.

One could point to the corporate sector as an obvious choice for a modern-day version of such support. Many corporations today could easily support renowned composers and orchestras to rival the best we have today. The problem with that, I think, is that the promotion of the corporation and its products, otherwise known as "marketing" (as in "commercial") would inevitably surface in the stated purpose of the artistic creation, which would severely narrow the choices for such composers.

I agree that there will always be creative people who will create just because they are alive, with or without any kind of support structure. However, I think it's lamentable that the high quality of musical training and study doesn't seem to be present in the majority of these 'street' artists. Lots of these folks don't make it, and a few do, and it is largely because the performers are able to scrape together enough funds to afford supper for the band members, and gas money to get to the next gig. I think commercial viability is overrated, because who benefits if the road band has a good night? The band? To a small extent. But the big winner is the bar owner who makes money at the door and at the bar, leaving the band to hawk their "merch" and split their gas-money. This reeks of the same greedy corporate model.

Another mode of support for art is governmental, such as the National Endowment for the Arts. I prefer the way it was in the Kennedy and Johnson years, because you had a very open-ended structure where it wasn't the commercial viability of the art that determined whether it was to receive support. Rather, it was the artistic viability of the concept. "Art for art's sake". Yes it led to a lot of junk art, but it also led to some high-quality art as well, and there was no preconception that the art must be pro- or anti- government. The commercial orientation of corporate-backed work is inevitable, as in "art for sales' sake."

I do not decry progress. I do, however think that if we just let orchestras, for example, die off like the dinosaurs, we're throwing the brontosauruses out with the bathwater.

I apologize for the length of this. I read your comments, friends, and I just had a flurry of ideas. Come on back...

Stevil

Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 12:17:00 AM
I do, however think that if we just let orchestras, for example, die off like the dinosaurs, we're throwing the brontosauruses out with the bathwater.
How do you decide which music forms get artificial government support?
Why Orchestras over Ompa bands?
Punk, Bluegrass, Rap, Metal, Swing, Jazz, Country etc
Does government have to keep all forms of music alive?

Amicale

Quote from: Stevil on April 27, 2012, 12:54:16 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 12:17:00 AM
I do, however think that if we just let orchestras, for example, die off like the dinosaurs, we're throwing the brontosauruses out with the bathwater.
How do you decide which music forms get artificial government support?
Why Orchestras over Ompa bands?
Punk, Bluegrass, Rap, Metal, Swing, Jazz, Country etc
Does government have to keep all forms of music alive?

When it comes down to it, (and I know that anyone into classical music personally or professionally will strongly disagree with me here) it seems like "forcing" a certain genre of music to stay alive as public entertainment is a bit artificial. For example, our local orchestra is always asking for money, so that it can be "saved", but there simply isn't the public interest in seeing orchestra productions. I agree that it's a real shame, but at the same time, I can't see the government deciding to save a particular industry that's had waning interest for years. Throwing money at something like that, especially when it's a form of entertainment, may not necessarily be in the government's best interests.

I'd be all for there being a public fund accessible to struggling artists in general, who need funding and support in order to get some practice/playing space, advertising, etc. And the members of the orchestra could certainly apply for a grant like this... but there are lots of genres of music that are struggling to get or stay recognized, and I'm not sure that insisting on one particular genre simply because it's 'traditional' will fly with everyone.

*hides under a chair and waits for the fight to begin*

P.S. - before anyone jumps down my throat, I'll add this: I LOVE classical music, I'd love to see more of it, and I really enjoy the orchestra's productions. It just seems that as much as I personally wish they were successful and thriving, I'm apparently in the minority, so I can accept that.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Stevil

Quote from: Amicale on April 27, 2012, 01:05:59 AM
I'd be all for there being a public fund accessible to struggling artists in general, who need funding and support in order to get some practice/playing space, advertising, etc.
I can understand from a commercial perspective a government supporting up and starters, but they need to do a business case and show how it can possibly provide financial benefit to the country and hence worth the investment of tax payer's money, rather than spending that money on health.

When Peter Jackson was young, just out of school, he was making a movie in his spare time, nights and week-ends. It was a blood and gore, splatter movie, he wrote the script, created the "special effects" himself and acted in it along with a few of his mates. It took four years of dedication, sometimes Peter was the only one that showed up.
The NZ government (NZ Film commission) gave him $100,000 to help him out, now Peter has created a 3 billion dollar industry in our country.

rickrocks

Stevil, there's a lot more to music "as art" if you will, which validates it beyond its commercial potential. If the value of things were based solely on the business model, i. e., profit, my mother would have a hard time surviving. And a lot like great paintings that need to be maintained through centuries, I think it is well worthwhile to support the exposure of people to great works of art, not only musical.