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Your moral ranking. Discussion Thread

Started by Stevil, February 23, 2012, 06:25:27 PM

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Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on February 23, 2012, 10:10:01 AM
After quite a bit of work and self-analysis, I think this is pretty close to correct. There may have been an oversight somewhere, and if there is, I will correct it.
Hope you don't mind me asking Asmo, but do you consider killing someone less bad for you than stealing a box of chocolates?
Friends and family of the person you killed would likely retaliate in a more severe way than the owners of the stolen chocolates.

Asmodean

#1
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 23, 2012, 10:10:01 AM
After quite a bit of work and self-analysis, I think this is pretty close to correct. There may have been an oversight somewhere, and if there is, I will correct it.
Hope you don't mind me asking Asmo, but do you consider killing someone less bad for you than stealing a box of chocolates?
Friends and family of the person you killed would likely retaliate in a more severe way than the owners of the stolen chocolates.
I refer to Tank's instructions, specifially:
QuoteAssume that for acts that may be illegal that you are 100% sure you will not be caught or prosecuted in any way.

EDIT: That said, retaliation is not the issue here.

If I can pay for those chocolates, I will - they are not for me anyways because I dislike chocolate, and I find the idea of gifting stolen property distasteful. It devalues the gift and therefor the gesture.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on February 23, 2012, 06:48:59 PM
I refer to Tank's instructions, specifially:
QuoteAssume that for acts that may be illegal that you are 100% sure you will not be caught or prosecuted in any way.

EDIT: That said, retaliation is not the issue here.

If I can pay for those chocolates, I will - they are not for me anyways because I dislike chocolate, and I find the idea of gifting stolen property distasteful. It devalues the gift and therefor the gesture.
Ahhhh, it becomes a consciousness thing. You feeling guilty for stealing chocolates or gifting stolen chocolates, but not feeling as much guilt for killing a person that has harmed you.
Thanks for explaining.

Ali

Melmouth, I find it interesting that you find killing someone who has hurt you to be a good thing, but being mean to someone on the internet because you don't like them (perhaps because they hurt you) is a bad thing.  That sort of follows my mental image of the British - do anything except be impolite.   ;D

Asmodean

Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
Ahhhh, it becomes a consciousness thing. You feeling guilty for stealing chocolates or gifting stolen chocolates, but not feeling as much guilt for killing a person that has harmed you.
Thanks for explaining.
Yes and no.

I wouldn't feel overly guilty over killing someone who harmed me enough to provoke said reaction, but that's not the point here - if you look at the magnitude explanation before my "Bad Asmo" cathegory, killing someone who harmed me falls into a cathegory of things I would consider, possibly fantasize about and, given the right provocation, maybe even do. Stealing something I have the money to pay for... Well, it isn't something I would even consider, just like I wouldn't consider killing a stranger for his wallet or beating an old lady with a baseball bad just because I can.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Asmodean on February 23, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
Yes and no.

I wouldn't feel overly guilty over killing someone who harmed me enough to provoke said reaction, but that's not the point here - if you look at the magnitude explanation before my "Bad Asmo" cathegory, killing someone who harmed me falls into a cathegory of things I would consider, possibly fantasize about and, given the right provocation, maybe even do. Stealing something I have the money to pay for... Well, it isn't something I would even consider, just like I wouldn't consider killing a stranger for his wallet or beating an old lady with a baseball bad just because I can.
Lets say you were held at gun point and given the option of either killing someone whom has harmed you, or stealing a box or chocolates or being shot to death yourself, which option would you choose?
In my case, I would steal the box of chocolates. I'm not saying that is what you should do, I am just trying to understand your ranking and you better.

Stevil

Melmoth - in response to your
Quote
Though for me that includes ranking them by how much they encourage "safe, stable society" - that too is a moral directive as far as I can see.

For me this isn't morally related. A safe and stable society means that myself and my loved ones are safe. An unstable society puts me and my loved ones in danger.

Ali

Quote from: Asmodean on February 23, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
Ahhhh, it becomes a consciousness thing. You feeling guilty for stealing chocolates or gifting stolen chocolates, but not feeling as much guilt for killing a person that has harmed you.
Thanks for explaining.
Yes and no.

I wouldn't feel overly guilty over killing someone who harmed me enough to provoke said reaction, but that's not the point here - if you look at the magnitude explanation before my "Bad Asmo" cathegory, killing someone who harmed me falls into a cathegory of things I would consider, possibly fantasize about and, given the right provocation, maybe even do. Stealing something I have the money to pay for... Well, it isn't something I would even consider, just like I wouldn't consider killing a stranger for his wallet or beating an old lady with a baseball bad just because I can.

How much would someone have to harm you to provoke you into killing them?  Like, if they hurt your feelings bad enough?  If they beat you up?  If they killed one of your loved ones?  Just curious where the line between fantasizing and actually killing lies.

Asmodean

Quote from: Ali on February 23, 2012, 07:34:03 PM
How much would someone have to harm you to provoke you into killing them?
I don't know. Up until this day, no human has died by my hand.

I can take quite a lot and will warn someone about to breach my limits of tolerance if possible. However, I think I do have the capacity to kill under certain circumstanes. Seriously harming someone I care about might well be one such instance.

Quote from: StevilLets say you were held at gun point and given the option of either killing someone whom has harmed you, or stealing a box or chocolates or being shot to death yourself, which option would you choose?
In my case, I would steal the box of chocolates. I'm not saying that is what you should do, I am just trying to understand your ranking and you better.
Held at gun point by the very person who harmed me? Then, if given the opportunity, I'd go for option a.

Held at gun point by someone else? Depends on my disposition towards that someone, but I would likely try to kill the gunman if given the opportunity.

Yes, under certain circumstances, I'd go for the chocolates, but I doubt provoking a fight-or-flight reaction is a good way of getting me to do that.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Melmoth

Quote from: AliMelmouth, I find it interesting that you find killing someone who has hurt you to be a good thing, but being mean to someone on the internet because you don't like them (perhaps because they hurt you) is a bad thing.  That sort of follows my mental image of the British - do anything except be impolite. ;D

Haha, yes, you've pretty much got me pigeon holed.

Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: MelmothThough for me that includes ranking them by how much they encourage "safe, stable society" - that too is a moral directive as far as I can see.

For me this isn't morally related. A safe and stable society means that myself and my loved ones are safe. An unstable society puts me and my loved ones in danger.

What if you and your loved ones are profiting from the unrest of others? Would that justify it?
"That life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one." - Emil Cioran.

Ali

I know I would kill to protect T.  I *might* kill someone who hurt him if justice couldn't be wrought any other way.  I can see that.

Asmodean

Quote from: Ali on February 23, 2012, 07:55:02 PM
I know I would kill to protect T.  I *might* kill someone who hurt him if justice couldn't be wrought any other way.  I can see that.
Oh, there are several people I'd put myself in jail for ages to protect. I was talking about killing someone after the actual harm was done.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

Yes, if someone hurt T and then the law didn't take care of it, I might snap and hurt them myself.  I could see it happening.  I'm pretty much a pacifist, but all bets are off when it comes to T. 

Amicale

Quote from: Ali on February 23, 2012, 09:37:23 PM
Yes, if someone hurt T and then the law didn't take care of it, I might snap and hurt them myself.  I could see it happening.  I'm pretty much a pacifist, but all bets are off when it comes to T. 

See, I'm the same way when it comes to A. The question about killing an armed robber who entered my house made me pause to consider it, because while I'd generally put killing ANYONE at the bottom of the list (ie, least moral), all bets are off when it comes to my family, and you'd better believe that if anyone threatened my child or my family with an armed weapon, I'd either take them out in self defense or (more likely, as I'm a klutz who's never shot a gun/pulled a knife on anyone) wind up dying myself after trying to fight and hurt them. But standing back and allowing someone to threaten my girl wouldn't happen. When I say over my dead body, I mean it literally. Hell hath no fury like a protective mom.  :P In a home invasion, though, I believe the police generally side with the victim and assume self defense isn't punishable by law if you used force to kill someone who was threatening to kill you.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Ali

In Colorado we have the "Make My Day Law" which basically says that if someone threatens you on your property, you are within your rights to shoot them.  Welcome to the Wild West, y'all.