A discussion on homosexuality.

[Recusant]

It was remiss of me not to provide any links; I admit I was being lazy.    OK, let's start with a link to the text of Regnerus's paper about the study itself: ScienceDirect | "How different are the adult children of parents who have same-sex relationships? Findings from the New Family Structures Study"

Now, on to the predictable reportage on this study by one of the loudest voices of the American right wing — Fox News: "Study finds host of challenges for kids of gay parents"

I mentioned that the researcher who authored the study is "pro-family," which is of course code for "Christian conservative," but he denies having a political affiliation, particularly a right-wing affiliation. The reason he's known in some circles for being oriented and perhaps biased toward a conservative view is because of a previous study he authored which purports to show that getting married early in life is better than waiting. Apparently some "family values" organizations also find support for their position in a book which he co-authored on pre-marital sex in the US.

Be that as it may, this new study is (not surprisingly) being examined in a very critical light by social scientists, liberals, and gay rights advocates. You can find plenty of this, but here are two examples:  Los Angeles Times | "Dad and dad vs. mom and dad" and LiveScience | "Study Questioning Same-Sex Parenting Draws Fire"

As for previous studies which purport to show that children of same-sex parents do just as well as any other children, one can start with "Lesbian and Gay Parenting" (PDF file) from the American Psychological Association.

[Sweetdeath]

So, quite honestly-- Yes, sexual orientation doesn't fucking matter in raising a child half as much as actual stability in  a relationship.

I tend to agree with this.  Here is an article that I recently read on Slate that talks about how that recent study doesn't say so much about the homosexual vs hetrosexual question, as it does about stability (and is actually a good argument for society to embrace gay marriage.)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/06/new_family_structures_study_is_gay_parenthood_bad_or_is_gay_marriage_good_.html

Thanks, Ali. You sound like a pretty awesome mom yourself.


Yeah, i think being a parent isn't about who you prefer to sleep with, but how well you have a good bond with them. A great bond with your significant other probably means a great bond with your kid. That's all that matters to me.

[Amicale]

I've said it before and will say it again, but I understand why people continue to believe and put forth the argument that it's best if children are raised with a mom and dad at home - clearly, they're thinking of a male/female balance in the household for a child to observe and to some degree emulate. In an ideal circumstance where both parents are available, caring, loving people who get along well each other, this is a good thing. If a kid sees their mom and dad getting along with one another as well as raising them with love and affection, they soak it up and in many cases, thrive.

The problem is that increasingly, society's just not like this. Many parents have to be 'mom AND dad' to their kids, and I do believe that many, even most, single parents do the very best they can with the tools they have -- nobody parents perfectly, and everyone makes mistakes, but I've seen many situations where a child has thrived in a loving, well-meaning single parent household. Situations where having the other 'parent' around would or does make a child's life worse, even.

I don't think being gay or straight has anything to do with your actual parenting skills, all social pressures/stigmas aside. If you love your kids, you love them whether you're married or single. If you happen to be a single parent, gay or straight, nobody parents in a bubble either -- there will always be other men and women in your circle of friends and family who will see your child and be a valuable part of their lives.

Speaking personally, I think my daughter's lucky in that even though she has two single parents raising her, she has several men and women in her life who spend time with her, dote on her, and love her. I'm sure by the end of her childhood she'll be somewhat worse for wear because all parents make mistakes, but hey, I think she'll know we didn't MEAN to send her to therapy... 

[Ali]

Amicale, great post, I agree!

[Sweetdeath]

I've said it before and will say it again, but I understand why people continue to believe and put forth the argument that it's best if children are raised with a mom and dad at home - clearly, they're thinking of a male/female balance in the household for a child to observe and to some degree emulate. In an ideal circumstance where both parents are available, caring, loving people who get along well each other, this is a good thing. If a kid sees their mom and dad getting along with one another as well as raising them with love and affection, they soak it up and in many cases, thrive.

The problem is that increasingly, society's just not like this. Many parents have to be 'mom AND dad' to their kids, and I do believe that many, even most, single parents do the very best they can with the tools they have -- nobody parents perfectly, and everyone makes mistakes, but I've seen many situations where a child has thrived in a loving, well-meaning single parent household. Situations where having the other 'parent' around would or does make a child's life worse, even.

I don't think being gay or straight has anything to do with your actual parenting skills, all social pressures/stigmas aside. If you love your kids, you love them whether you're married or single. If you happen to be a single parent, gay or straight, nobody parents in a bubble either -- there will always be other men and women in your circle of friends and family who will see your child and be a valuable part of their lives.

Speaking personally, I think my daughter's lucky in that even though she has two single parents raising her, she has several men and women in her life who spend time with her, dote on her, and love her. I'm sure by the end of her childhood she'll be somewhat worse for wear because all parents make mistakes, but hey, I think she'll know we didn't MEAN to send her to therapy... 

A+ <3


The world isn't a simple text book. We should accept all forms of diversity in parenting, and other things.

[OldGit]

Lovely post, Amicale.  As long as a kid is secure and surrounded by loving people, it's not going to go very far wrong.  Needs a bit of discipline, too, mind.

[Tank]

In many jurisdictions in the US, a gay couple, while they can't get married, can adopt children.

As for evidence that growing up in a household with gay parents is detrimental, I did hear of a recent study by some "pro-family" researcher that purported to show this. On the other hand, there are at least a few studies which show the opposite, so I'm inclined to discount the clearly biased study. Sorry I don't have links to any of this; if you're really interested I can scrape around and find some for you.

As long as a child grows up.in a loving  home, with good food and education, what does it matter if he/she has two moms, two dads, or a solo parent?


Those "studies" are most likely biased and manipulated. I do not believe in gender roles, or the need for two different sex parents.

we as humans cant place love and warmth in a person's heart because of their gender or orientation.

SD would you ever believe a study that determined that generally children do grow up to be more (insert positive measure) in a family with a Mum and  Dad rather than a homosexual couple or a single parent?

I ask this because you appear to be dismissing the research based on your personal bias "I do not believe in gender roles, or the need for two different sex parents." The key word here is 'believe'. Could that belief be changed based on hard evidence?

This isn't an attack on your sexual orientation but a serious question about how you evaluate reality. Are your 'gut feelings' more important than facts? Could facts ever change your 'gut feeling'?

I suppose it is more personal experience than anything. I pretty much raised myself. My mum and dad separated when i was about 7, and then my mum started heavily drinking when i was 12 , so at 13 and on, i raised myself. I suppose you could call it 'single parent.' My dad was never around, and when he did come, it was to bring gifts to make up for the time he wasn't around. (haha)


My gf's parents are still together. Married for over 30 years and whatnot. But the father is a slimeball who is cheating on her and mentally/physically abuses her.
Her mom takes it out on my gf.

SO, parents together or single--- doesn't fucking matter. It only matters if the person or persons raising you are stable. I've seen so many heterosexual parents fuck the shit out of a child's childhood. Like mine, my gf-- and many other close friends.


So, quite honestly-- Yes, sexual orientation doesn't fucking matter in raising a child half as much as actual stability in  a relationship.

I would agree on a subjective/personal level that the emotional content of the relationship between parent(s) and child is by far more important than the relative gender of the parent(s). But my question/point wasn't really about that. My question was about your attitude to scientific research. You dismissed the research based on your own experience but your experience is only one data point and thus scientifically invalid.

Theists often deny scientific research on the basis of their personal experiences. Which you would consider illogical? Yet you are using the same logic of personal experience to overrule scientific research. Now I agree with you that in this case the research looks biased. What I want to understand is if there were good quality unbiased research that contradicted your personal views would you change your view?

[Sweetdeath]

Oh, i'm not trying to dismiss it, Tank. I suppose i do feel it's a bit bias.

Doesn't parenting pressure for same sex couples have more to do with society and its biggotry than anything else? :<

[Recusant]

I don't think there's one positive thing said about Regnerus's work on this study in the LiveScience article I linked to earlier. Some telling points:

The study defined same-sex parenting by asking participants if their parents had ever had same-sex relationships, and whether they had lived with the parent at that time. That led to a "hodgepodge" group of people who Regnerus then compared with kids in stable, married homes, said Judith Stacey, a sociologist at New York University who was not involved in the research.

"These are kids whose parents, maybe they divorced, maybe they separated, maybe they had a scandalous affair, we just don't know."

In contrast, a fair comparison would have matched up children of same-sex parents with children of heterosexual parents who looked otherwise similar — no extra divorces, no extra separations, no extra time in foster care for the kids, said Gary Gates, a researcher at the Williams Institute, a sexual orientation policy think tank at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Instead, Regnerus categorized all people who said their parents were once in a same-sex relationship in the same group, even if those people had also experienced major childhood upheavals. About half of the people whose parents had ever been in gay or lesbian relationships also said their parents had once been in a heterosexual marriage, suggesting that a great many of these children were the products of a heterosexual relationship in which one parent later came out as gay or bisexual. Fifty-eight percent of those raised by moms who'd indicated a lesbian experience said their mother once left the household during their youth, and 14 percent said they'd spent time in foster care.

"All he found is that family instability is bad for children and that's hardly groundbreaking or new," Gates, who was not involved in the research, told LiveScience.

"What I find most frustrating is that from what I could tell, he could have used his data to test the way I'm suggesting the test, and he chose not to," Gates added. "He intentionally chose a methodology that is absolutely primed to find bad outcomes in those kids."

(Emphasis mine — R)

The study was funded by two conservative-leaning foundations, Witherspoon Institute and the Bradley Foundation, though the funders had no control over the study design, interpretation or conclusions, Regnerus wrote.

Only two of the 1.7 percent of respondents who reported a parental same-sex relationship reported living with that couple as parents for their entire childhood, meaning that the study has little to say about gay couples who deliberately chose to parent children through donor insemination, surrogacy or other means.

Researchers are increasingly studying these parents, Stacey said, and research both in the U.S. and abroad consistently shows that the kids are just fine.

Fox News and others of their ilk may think this study supports their position, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't pass the smell test.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Interesting info, Recusant. Thanks

[Tank]

Oh, i'm not trying to dismiss it, Tank. I suppose i do feel it's a bit bias.

Doesn't parenting pressure for same sex couples have more to do with society and its biggotry than anything else? :<

I know you've had some shit times in your life and that's bound to influence one's personal view of what is good/bad or right/wrong.