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When Nothing Created Everything

Started by Achronos, January 06, 2011, 12:21:38 AM

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McQ

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"As I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

In the US, the FOIA allows us to request accident reports, free of charge, for any military accident. It usually takes up to two months to receive one.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "McQ"As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.
I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

I doubt it is any different with bomb-range accidents; the fifth and seventh entries here document bomb-range mishaps.

Also, this report documents the deaths of some personnel in an overseas bomb-range mis-bombing.

There doesn't appear to be any veil of secrecy over bomb range mishaps.  Additionally, it doesn't appear from the circumstances that this mishap occurred on a range.

At any rate, hopefully Achronos will provide the requested data.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

DJAkuma

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "McQ"As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.
I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.

I doubt it is any different with bomb-range accidents; the fifth and seventh entries here document bomb-range mishaps.

Also, this report documents the deaths of some personnel in an overseas bomb-range mis-bombing.

There doesn't appear to be any veil of secrecy over bomb range mishaps.  Additionally, it doesn't appear from the circumstances that this mishap occurred on a range.

At any rate, hopefully Achronos will provide the requested data.

I'm going to go ahead and beat him to the punch and make the response for him, "it was a classified mission so there's no publicly available documents" or perhaps "it was the RAF, they don't have the same policies regarding making their accident reports public", or possibly "My god ate it".

There, that should cover most of the bases.

TheJackel

QuoteRe: When Nothing Created Everything
QuoteA mythic narrative, whose lesson is the absurdity of materialism.

Nothing can not be a person, object, substance, entity, place, or thing.. Thus making the notion of materialism an absurdity at best an absurdity!. It's a logical fallacy fail at the highest possible level. So one's failure to understand reality, is no excuse for one to make up nonsensical drivel and then try to rationalize it as some sort or magical truth. It's called circumventing logic and reason to get people to believe a pile of complete nonsense.

Nothing by definition is complete an utter irrelevance, and there never was "nothing", nor did the universe come from "nothing" in scientific terms. This also tells me that someone doesn't understand the definition of nothing in the literal context. It's theism trying to claim something can be simpler than the Universe in complexity to exist as a negative object, existence, substance, entity, place, or thing as if it were magically possible. That is what you call a complete collapse of logic, reason, and rationality in favor for mythical impossibilities.

Stevil

Quote from: "Achronos"
Quote from: "Stevil"Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable.
Interesting, but I don't think there is any evidence the writers of say, The New Testament, created the myth of Christ because they all had some inquisitive children who needed some new myths to shut them up, so they got together to create a new one, the resurrection.  And then they left their families and children to tell this story to all the people clammering for a new story, and then ultimately died for something they knew they had made up. "Science" can really cause one to make up some humdinger stories!
New Testament could have come about because there were lots of children's myths out there but nothing to seperate the boys from the men. Hence a new book was written in a semi-adult fashion where the superhero has special hero powers especially around water e.g. water into wine, walk on water etc. Really it seems that the Romans were struggling to control the people so they put the Christian Bible together in a special edit version to suit their needs. Less of a myth more of a fantasy fiction with a moral to be good and do as you are told and accept the laws of the goverment.

My point is, if we were to burn these books and miraculously erase this knowledge from all humans, it is unlikely that Christianity would ever look the same. However if we were to burn the science books and miraculously erase this knowledge from all humans it is likely the scientists would come to the same state of knowledge. Why?, because one is logically provable and derivable based on an objective truth where as the other is a story based on imagination or a momentary set of events or both.

TheJackel

#35
QuoteI ejected from a jet less than 10 feet from the ground. My chute didn't fully deploy and I lived. The man I was flying with died. I was flying on a Saturday, when I normally wouldn't have been, and no one in my family new I was flying that day. I broke my back, and when I returned home, their was a message on my answering machine from my mother. The time of the call would have been almost exactly when my crash was. It said, "I don't know why, but I just got on my knees and prayed for you because I felt like you were in danger. Call me."

I'll leave my surviving the crash even though I was outside the envelope of survivability to chance(an engineer from MD even visited me to explain I should be dead and to try to figure out how I survived on the Zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve), my mother's prayers might very well have had no effect. But the fact she knew at the almost the exact moment of my crash to pray, when she didn't even know I was flying, and it was documented on the time code of my answering machine, to me that is miraculous. Science has no answer for that, except that is was pure coincidence. And of course, I'm sure you'll think it's coincidence. Of course, I've never gotten a call like that from my mom before or since. And I used to be a Math major in College, I can't even fathom the probability of getting a message like that from my mom once in my entire life at the exact time I was in a burning jet.

This sounds a lot like the prefabricated stories I've used myself, or that of others. It's a common story among theists but the story varies with each iteration because it's design is so you can put in your own words. It's what we called in advertising Miracle Fables. I've used them often in pamphlets. And usually they were given to me by an editor/writer working for said this or that Church to use as material. So here are the basics of the Fable:

A) I have heard this story before, and used it often.
B) It usually revolves one's self and a mother or father (but can involve friends ect)
C) It always has the someone couldn't know this factor (language, clothing, what happened ectra)
D) May include prayer
E) Always seems to argue from a Carl Sagan Position
G) Is pleading for sympathy, while being called out on to prove the story.
H) These stories play on sympathy and emotion to gain credibility

Here is an example of copy paste Miracle Fables: I highlighted the key components of these arguments.
QuoteI wont go into people thinking they know everything as existence or non existence such as with Jackle, Albert Einstein once said at a lecture,"With everything that I know, I can be certain of nothing in this Universe." and with each passing day of Science, it brings me closer to believe there has to be a God!

My quick story is not from a book but happened in real life. My father became Ill in October of 2002 and was found with Lung and Bone Cancer. He died on December 21, 2002 at 12 noon here in Deltona Florida. 1 month before his death a former attorney friend of my Dad's (who had not spoken to my Dad in over 4 years) Sent my Father through UPS a Blue and White pin Stripe suit. When my Dad died this was the only Suit he had and was buried in it. My Mother after the funeral called the attorney to thank him and asked why he had sent my Dad the Suit, he said he had a dream that my Dad was going some where and needed a suit, and that my Dad told him that his favorite color was blue, so he looked in his closet, picked it out and sent it.

Now, as my Father Lay in bed for two weeks before dieing, a life long friend of my family that is my age who lives in Massachusetts, was sick and had gone into a Coma in November of 2002. He was in the coma for a little over 2 months and was expected to die. The second week of January 2003 he came out of the Coma and the next day called my mother and told her that he had to talk to her immediately. (Now keep in mind that he had no Idea that my Dad was sick or that he passed away) He told my mother ( Yes I was on the telephone with them, that he saw the white light, went up a tunnel and stopped. About 10 feet ahead of him stood his Mother, his father and my father telling him that he could not Cross over and that he was going back down, that it was not his time. He was told by his mother and my father that he needed to help his brother in law and sister to move to florida. He said he talked to my Dad and asked him why he was there and my Dad told him that he had died. (Again he had no idea that my Dad had passed and was never told by anyone. I was still very skeptical about what he was saying and asked him, "When you saw my father could you tell me what he was wearing?, He laughed and said its funny you said that because he was dressed in a Blue and White Pin Striped suit, (My Dad Never wore a suit in 20 years) He said he asked my Dad why he was wearing a suit and he said my Dad told him because it was a gift.) Now there is no way he could have known my Dad was dead, He was in a Coma, We never told his sister or brother in law that my dad had died because they were going through possibly losing their brother and we didnt want to burden them with our dads death. But the chances of his knowing my dad had died, seeing my dad, then seeing him in a Blue and White Pin Striped Suit, and my dad telling him tha the was dead and wearing the suit because it was a gift , you can guess the odds on that.

In my opinion, death is not something that should be feared but seen as a stage of life. If the truth is that all energy transcends, then we are looking for ansers in the wrong places. Think of how much we can control and understand compared to 100 years ago. We carry the very gift of creation and life in our bodies and create this gift without ever giving it one thought. To find out the true answer, we need to find where all energy goes. There is only one mass that continues to grow before our eyes adn expand, thats the universe. Dont look at religion with the Freak's, the Liars and Scam Artists of today as they are nothing more than filth, look at what the gift of energy is and it may lead you to the real answers as to what we really are.

Or The common paralyzed wheel Chair miracle. : Can you pick out the common elements above?

QuoteYes, and? What's the explanation for someone who doesn't speak Kreyol to start? Or a paralyzed man to get up and start dancing? Or someone who has no idea who my father is, or his name, to tell me exactly how he died when I had no idea how to get any information from Haiti?

Okay, A) this is rude. I'm not sure whether you're calling me gullible or a liar, but I don't appreciate either.
B) I would not use my father's death as proof of anything that wasn't true, especially not a religion he didn't believe in and thought to be the work of the devil.

Miracle Fables are very common in religious propaganda because they are appealing to emotional attachments, and seeking people who are easily manipulated. Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV. Btw, the blue highlights are usually another dead give-away not listed above because the smarter ones will leave that bit out of the fable.

Stevil

Quote from: "TheJackel"Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV.
Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?

TheJackel

Quote from: "Stevil"
Quote from: "TheJackel"Yeah, I am revealing some nasty little secret in what theists use as preaching and debating arguments. They are typically a dime a dozen these days. It's as bad as watching those fake healing sessions on TV.
Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?

A: They don't really believe, and have something to gain from it
B: Defend the ideology at all costs
C: Manipulate others into the ideology
D: May believe a lie will help bring someone into salvation.
E: Is advertising and preaching looking to convert easily manipulated people on emotional pleading/ignorance. (This is what I was specifically guilty of doing)
F: Uses the argument as a credibility tool when other arguments don't work.

Basically, Theists of this sort have no problem barring false witness if it will service their agenda. It's pathetic, and it makes me sick that I myself have used these kinds of arguments before  :pop: It's also usually the more fundamentalists and radicals that use those arguments. But I have seen others believe that TV Healing sessions were "Real".  lol

Gawen

Quote from: "Stevil"Question for you Jackel, do these people believe in their god?
Why do they need to resort to deciept if they think their god is true, wouldn't they think that there must be true stories to tell?
Well, the first stories taught about a spiritual Jesus (written by Paul) and they lied for Jesus. The Gospels, written way after the alleged fact, lied for jesus when they attempt to put a face on and a life about the 'spiritual' Jesus.

So what stories are true that do not require a humungous leaf of faith?
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

periwinklefish

#39
About the 'miracle story'... I'd like to see a report of that incident, myself.  People search for reasons to believe in god.  I can see how, if this guy was searching for a reason to believe, he could even unknowingly distort the facts to himself in order to strengthen his believe in his god.  Why are miracles necessary if everything is god's will?  How do you know that your living through this accident was a good thing?  Why is living preferable if heaven is waiting for you?  We assume living is preferable b/c it's our human instinct to want to live, but when a christian child dies, the christians say: "it was god's will".

TheJackel

Quote from: "periwinklefish"About the 'miracle story'...  My first instinct is also to call BS, and I'd like to see a report of that incident, myself.  All miracle stories sound this way.   There appears to be no way to dispute it, but then, no one can actually prove any of the events claimed to have happened.  And in most cases there is a logical explanation, but that's not quite as interesting or fun for a believer's mind.  Also, people search for reasons to believe in their god.  I can see how, if this guy was searching for a reason to believe, he could even unknowingly distort the facts to himself in order to strengthen his believe in his god.  Totally within the realm of human behavior.  But, again, (to the christian pilot guy) how do you know it was your god who saved you?  

Further, why are miracles necessary if everything is god's will?  How do you know that your living through this accident was a good thing?  Why is living preferable if heaven is waiting for you?  We assume living is preferable b/c it's our human instinct to want to live, but when a christian child dies, the christians say: "it was god's will".  HMMM?  When I was a christian, why didn't my god save me from a debilitating accident to my C5-7 region?  Was I not 'graced' with god's love?

Actually it's been a prefabricated story for a very long time. It's one of the key tools in religious propaganda, and you can usually tell which version or structure they are using by noting the key elements used. It was developed by the same type of people that do those TV healing sessions.. I've seen literally hundreds of these things. I had even seen someone take someone's real life survival story and plagiarizer it for this very kind of argument... This doesn't mean that people don't experience things they don't understand. But I can tell you with nearly 100 percent certainty that the story posted here today was indeed a pre-fab Miracle story.  :P

Achronos

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
I like the idea that an Air Force firefighter would be an authority on military aeronautic engineering and physiology.

Quotethe seat in question would have been the ACES-II

LOL! I wish it had been an ACES-II.  But I wasn't flying an F-18, I was flying a 40 plus year old T-2 Buckeye sherlock.

Talk about a little bit of knowlege can get someone in trouble.  The accident was over a decade ago.  I wasn't in an ACES-II ZERO/ZERO seat.  I was in an old, single rocket, single stage, non-gyro seat in a 40 plus year old jet, the T-2 buckeye. You go in the direction the jet is pointing.  Mine was low, slow, and perpendicular to the ground with the wing touching when I shot out. I was traveling well over a 100mph, free in the air, parallel to the ground, and between 10 and 20 feet in the air after I was shot out.

Quoteeither end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues

Oh, and again, we caught fire on take off, going just a little more than a 100 knots when we ejected probably.  The problem isn't "windblast", the problem is there isn't enough air speed for an old seat like that to 1) properly separate from jet, 2) fully open the shoot, and 3) have enough altitude for all of this to occur.  That is why the most dangerous place to eject is low and slow, and the second most is really fast and spinning at any altitude. Also, since there is no gyro, you go where the jet is pointed, so I didn't go up, I went parallel to the ground. Some observers didn't even see me get out I was flying through the air so low to the ground.

Also, when you are that low and slow with those old seats, the force of the single-rocket shooting you out can fracture your spine, and then when you hit the ground without a fully-deployed shoot it just makes it worse.

A seat like an Aces II has multiple rockets and a gyro mechanism to get you out less violently, point you UP, and then shoot you away from the ground.  If I had had that, I would have been smoking cigars later in the evening rather than lying in a hospital bed and my co-pilot dead.
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
- St. Augustine

AnimatedDirt


TheJackel

Quote from: "Achronos"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
I like the idea that an Air Force firefighter would be an authority on military aeronautic engineering and physiology.

Quotethe seat in question would have been the ACES-II

LOL! I wish it had been an ACES-II.  But I wasn't flying an F-18, I was flying a 40 plus year old T-2 Buckeye sherlock.

Talk about a little bit of knowlege can get someone in trouble.  The accident was over a decade ago.  I wasn't in an ACES-II ZERO/ZERO seat.  I was in an old, single rocket, single stage, non-gyro seat in a 40 plus year old jet, the T-2 buckeye. You go in the direction the jet is pointing.  Mine was low, slow, and perpendicular to the ground with the wing touching when I shot out. I was traveling well over a 100mph, free in the air, parallel to the ground, and between 10 and 20 feet in the air after I was shot out.

Quoteeither end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues

Oh, and again, we caught fire on take off, going just a little more than a 100 knots when we ejected probably.  The problem isn't "windblast", the problem is there isn't enough air speed for an old seat like that to 1) properly separate from jet, 2) fully open the shoot, and 3) have enough altitude for all of this to occur.  That is why the most dangerous place to eject is low and slow, and the second most is really fast and spinning at any altitude. Also, since there is no gyro, you go where the jet is pointed, so I didn't go up, I went parallel to the ground. Some observers didn't even see me get out I was flying through the air so low to the ground.

Also, when you are that low and slow with those old seats, the force of the single-rocket shooting you out can fracture your spine, and then when you hit the ground without a fully-deployed shoot it just makes it worse.

A seat like an Aces II has multiple rockets and a gyro mechanism to get you out less violently, point you UP, and then shoot you away from the ground.  If I had had that, I would have been smoking cigars later in the evening rather than lying in a hospital bed and my co-pilot dead.

Your description sounds nearly identical to this youtube video in regards to being low and parallel to the ground ejection. Accept I think you tried to skew it and make a survival story out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI9SjKT- ... re=related

Also your so called story doesn't actually match with the accident history of the T2-buck eye that I can even find. Unless you are going to claim you are magically that student that crashed his plane on the deck. :P