Author Topic: "Rational Arguments for God?"  (Read 828 times)

Magdalena

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2017, 04:29:37 AM »
There is no rational argument for God.  God is only encountered by revelation - self disclosure.  He cannot be accessed by evidence or logic alone.  The individual believer may feel that his experience affords a rational basis for his faith, but he will never be able to convince anyone else of that through reason.  So faith remains in the realm of the subjective, and all efforts to bring it into the realm of reason are futile.

"Well . . . there it is."

Do I get a good star and some coupons?


...Let me think about it.

Maybe we could give him a set of steak knives?

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Arturo

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2017, 05:15:04 AM »
Do I get a good star and some coupons?


...Let me think about it.

Maybe we could give him a set of steak knives?

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.
But, uh...well there it is.
"Nothing's a struggle, but everything is a challenge"-Anon
Hate Is Weakness

Magdalena

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2017, 05:24:52 AM »
Do I get a good star and some coupons?


...Let me think about it.

Maybe we could give him a set of steak knives?

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.

I still don't get it.  :notsure:


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

BooksCatsEtc

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2017, 05:54:07 AM »

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.

I still don't get it.  :notsure:

It's a classic door prize sort of thing -- I think you have to be my age to remember it.  But yes, I was also thinking that as a Texan Bruce surely eats steak.
Sandy

  
"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?"  from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

Magdalena

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2017, 06:20:17 AM »

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.

I still don't get it.  :notsure:

It's a classic door prize sort of thing -- I think you have to be my age to remember it.  But yes, I was also thinking that as a Texan Bruce surely eats steak.

Fine. He can have the steak knives.


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

BooksCatsEtc

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2017, 10:54:14 AM »

Fine. He can have the steak knives.

I think the Cadillac is outside of our budget anyway.
Sandy

  
"I think this is the prettiest world -- as long as you don't mind a little dying, how could there be a day in your whole life that doesn't have its splash of happiness?"  from The Kingfisher, by Mary Oliver

xSilverPhinx

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2017, 12:53:35 PM »
Do I get a good star and some coupons?


...Let me think about it.

Maybe we could give him a set of steak knives?

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.

What's third prize, a Texas cowboy hat? :smokincowboy:

Do you wear one of those, Bruce? :grin:
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2017, 02:01:52 PM »

:secrets1: I don't know what this means. :shifty: 
Is it a Texan thing? Will giving him a set of steak knives benefit the forum?  :eyebrow:
If yes, I'm in.

First prize is a Cadillac Escalade. Second prize is steak knives.

I still don't get it.  :notsure:

It's a classic door prize sort of thing -- I think you have to be my age to remember it.  But yes, I was also thinking that as a Texan Bruce surely eats steak.

Fine. He can have the steak knives.

When?

xSilverPhinx

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2017, 02:05:56 PM »
This came out last week, a pop science article on how damage to the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex can result in decreased cognitive flexibility and therefore increase in religious fundamentalism.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


xSilverPhinx

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2017, 02:39:25 PM »

[re: smart people and belief.]

I think that some of their inner experiences can be so strong that the brain will accept just about any rationalisation for the belief, even lousy ones. Intellectual justification is secondary to the experience, which is what's "real".

Maybe the cognitive dissonance is stronger in smarter people, I don't know. I'm assuming every now and then the trio Reason, Logic and Evidence creep into the mind and are either put away in some "dusty" compartment, dealt with and rationalised in a new form, or they shatter the belief structure completely.

OK, I can see that.  Perhaps also it's the issue of comfort -- even if a believer doesn't have a "meeting god" experience, the comfort provided by religious belief and/or religious community is so important that they'll find some way of shoehorning it on in there.

Yes, I think so too.

I'd imagine there are lots of reasons why people believe, but most of them are to satisfy emotional needs, not intellectual ones. IMO if you believe that the Bible is a factual and literal explanation for the way the universe is as it is, the odds of you deconverting are higher because there's just so much evidence that the Bible is not. It's so much more to deal with, mentally. On the other hand, religion for comfort or existential meaning does not rely so much on evidence or logic, therefore it's more difficult to topple such beliefs with evidence and logic. Instead, I think they would have to fall out of love with their perception of what their god is.

My mother's friend died yesterday night in a car crash, leaving behind a husband and a son, both currently hospitalised. On fricken' mother's day. Of course, as always happens following such a tragedy is people will be sending their prayers on Whatsapp, Facebook and every other channel. I keep quiet ( :-X ) but it did get me thinking: if it were my family, and if I believed in a benevolent god, then would I consider that a form of emotional abuse or simply that god works in mysterious ways and I will never know why anybody has to die like that? Would I constantly look for signs that might offer an answer? Would I interpret "noise" as I subconsciously want to in order to reach a certain answer ("seek and you shall find")? If so, what would that answer be? That god commits acts of cruelty because he loves me?  :???:

Death is part of life but damn that was cruel to those who were left behind. I can't pray for the family so I won't be getting emotional comfort out of feeling I'm actually doing something.     

Quote
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What I find fascinating is the deconversion process. At what point or what factors trigger this process when it seems the intellectual modules in the brain finally win the tug of war and take precedence? What needs to happen? It seems to me that it depends heavily on how their belief networks are structured, and these networks vary from person to person.

That is interesting, and as you say probably as varied as the reasons for belief.  You know how many atheists take offense (and rightly so) when believers tell them that if they lost their religion, then they couldn't have truly had it in the first place?  In my case, I think that's actually true.

I am not by nature a doubter -- if someone tells me XYZ is true, my inclination is to accept it esp. when the person who tells me that is older and/or more experienced then me.  Which is just about everybody.  So I spent the first 30+ years of my life trying to figure out why religious beliefs just didn't take with me.  I initially assumed I was doing something wrong, then later that perhaps I was following the wrong religion, but no correction or change made the slightest bit of difference. 

I finally realized what the road block was when, while thinking about all of this one day, it dawned on me that god was a supernatural concept.  It really took that long to occur to me: the teaching that god is unquestioningly real and my unspoken assumption that real = natural got so stuck together in my brain that I never thought to question it before.

The problem was that while I had accepted a lot of other things I was told throughout my life (at least at first) I had never, ever been able to believe in the supernatural, even as a kid.  Once I saw, consciously, what the conflict was, that was it for religion of any kind.  I could no more believe in a god than in pixies or ghosts.  Made my deconversion as fast and painless as water off a duck's back.

That's an interesting deconversion story! :grin:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 02:50:41 PM by xSilverPhinx »
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Magdalena

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2017, 06:15:02 PM »
Fine. He can have the steak knives.

When?

Today is your lucky day, my friend...  :grin:




“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2017, 06:18:37 PM »
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Magdalena

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“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2017, 08:19:05 PM »
Fine. He can have the steak knives.

When?

Today is your lucky day, my friend...  :grin:


Five Finger Fillet set, please.

xSilverPhinx

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Re: "Rational Arguments for God?"
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2017, 08:21:48 PM »
^ Not into magic that involves plastic voodoo dolls, I see.
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.